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Hello and welcome to Dateline London. | :00:24. | :00:24. | |
Should the Zika virus mean the Olympics are moved from Rio? | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
Libya and the new route for refugees and migrants into Europe. | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
Plus: how can Hillary Clinton prepare for the presidential | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
My guests are: Michael Golfarb of Politico Europe. | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
Yasmin Alibhai Brown, the writer and broadcaster. | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
Agnes Poirier of Marianne, and Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
writer and commentator. More than 100 leading health experts | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
are demanding that the Olympic Games in Rio are moved or postponed | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
as a result of the threat from the Zika virus. | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
Given the enormous sums of money involved, the political prestige, | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
the careers of athletes, will the International Olympic Committee | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
What do you think about this? It is quite a shock to get people who are | :01:03. | :01:15. | |
well versed in virology to say that the game should be moved or | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
postponed? It is a shock to have it now, we've known about the Zika | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
virus, I think officially the world health organisation issued an | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
emergency statement warning pregnant women or young women not to travel | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
to Brazil, that was three months ago. So, why do we get this letter | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
now? The average citizen, i.e., asked, relies on the UN or this | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
agency to actually do their work. We have malaria, so many scientists in | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
the world, top rate scientists, working on the subject. Fine, now | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
they are throwing this letter in the public domain. What are we to | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
believe? The world health organisation now says, very quickly, | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
know this is going to be fine. Perhaps they could commission an | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
independent survey, or investigation. That's what struck me | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
about it, you have these experts who say it should not happen, the WHO | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
said that Zika is a real threat, and now say that the games should go | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
ahead. You think, who can we trust? None of us are virology to, what do | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
you think? To be honest, I'm shocked. Who are they? 106 to | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
doctors. Thousands of doctors, they all say the same. Are they more | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
informed than the WHO -- 160. For example, its well-known and well | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
established, these experts in their field. And our other athletes -- | :02:46. | :02:55. | |
that athletes, they more about then then the citizens of Brazil? What | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
about the millions of people going to Brazil? Brazil is passing through | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
a very difficult time. There is a huge economy crisis. There is a | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
transitional period, we know that. And a political crisis. Yes, why are | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
those 160 doctors, are they going to make the situation extremely | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
difficult? It's a conspiracy! It's not a conspiracy. It's not. OK, but | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
we have to think of this country and think of their people. Yes, but I | :03:29. | :03:39. | |
don't think 160 doctors are being governed by an evil master | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
elsewhere... They have written this letter... They are not from | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
Africa... They are Americans as well... Americans, yes. Another | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
conspiracy. But what you said is right. Why isn't the WHO changing | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
its message. So drastically, from what it was saying three months ago? | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
That is the alternative conspiracy, if I may say so. All of these big | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
bodies, they know there is so much money at stake. They don't say | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
anything. When you read out the news earlier, I said in the Green room, | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
he's got it wrong. The WHO cannot possibly say that. I think there is | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
something there. But, at the moment... I'm not going into it... | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Conspiracy of the day! It is not a conspiracy, I think that there's a | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
real threat, I think it's an unknown threat because we don't know enough | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
about it. And I do think that the IOC has to rethink and moved to a | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
different place. It is their responsibility. Is very unlikely. It | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
will not happen, to answer your question, a few minutes ago, the | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
tie-break between the WHO and bees 100 odd doctors, for me the centre | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
of disease control in Atlanta, they say that they agree with the WHO -- | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
the use. It is entirely possible that in the world of science, there | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
is a significant minority who disagree and have gone public with | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
it -- these. Fair enough. The deeper question to talk about Brazil is | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
what is happening politically. If there is anything that is a real | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
threat to the Olympic Games, it's possible, I suppose, to see a | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
country that begins to disintegrate politically just at the moment went | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
it is here -- when it is having its political showcase. It happens every | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
time there's an Olympics. There's always a crisis. Yes, it is going to | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
be a shambles... It is not. It is not the same. The traffic wouldn't | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
work, it was going to take ours... And it happens... And the euro in | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
France! It is not the same, I think we should take this seriously. These | :05:55. | :06:04. | |
are professional people. I'm saying that you cannot miss trust | :06:05. | :06:06. | |
professional doctors who have written a letter, you cannot just | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
dismiss them because the WHO says, you need to make a careful note. If | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
they wrote this letter, there might be a danger. If something happens it | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
will be the poorest countries with the poorest women who will pay the | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
price. That is what virology is to do so, the real threat is not to | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
Britain or developed countries, but cases like India, in Africa... The | :06:30. | :06:40. | |
carriers, if they do... Let me say one thing in this case. OK, the WHO | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
said that there are 60 countries who had the virus, are we going to ban | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
all the tourists and visitors from coming to us here? Auto anywhere, | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
simply because those doctors, those 160 said that the virus could be | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
spreading? From a wider angle, I believe the WHO is... How much did | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
they pay you? Part of the conspiracy! Just a final thought. | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
There's one very serious point. Everyone has touched on it in a | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
different way, these international so I could kill showcases, Euro 2016 | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
is another one, they breed stresses and strains. The Olympic site going | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
to be a disaster, probably not. They are probably going to be fine. | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
Security concerns in France for Euro 2016, how is that playing out in | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
France? France is in the grip of general strikes. And in two weeks' | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
time, we have the Euro 2016 competition, we are in a state of | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
emergency. 90,000 policemen, they now have other things to do, | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
clashing with extreme left demonstrators industries of every | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
single city in France. Everything is fine! You were speaking, I was | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
reminded of a famous French general who said the left is collapsing, the | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
rear is that thing, the centre... I shall advance! We said many times on | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
this programme... on refugees and migrants closes | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
in Turkey and Greece, it will simply That became especially clear this | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
week, with the loss of more lives and heart stopping scenes | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
of about overturning. But what is the responsibility | :08:30. | :08:30. | |
of Britain, France, and to a lesser extent the United States in Libya, | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
given the role these countries played in the overthrow | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
of Colonel Gaddafi? I mean, do you think that we are | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
reaping what we sow it? In other words, the toppling of a dictator, | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
however horrible, has created conditions of chaos that has allowed | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
people to come through? Toppling a dictator is something -ish truly | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
dangerous, and counter-productive in a way or another. But, Britain, | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
France, the US, they never had a plan B. They had a plan to topple | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
the dictator, he was a tyrant and awful, no question of that. But | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
people were looking at the intervention, military intervention, | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
as a good thing. They are thinking that Nato, 28 of the most civilised | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
countries on earth, they will make Libya a haven. A model for | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
everybody. That has not happened. President Obama, he summarised it in | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
a very emotional way, when he said that the biggest regret of his | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
presidency, his two terms in presidency, was the intervention in | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
Libya. He blamed Sarkozy and Cameron for this to buckle. The problem is, | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
in this programme, we used to say several times that you are sensitive | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
to the problem of migration -- debacle. Libya has about 2000 | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
kilometres along the Mediterranean shore. This would be a springboard | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
for illegal immigrant is to come to this country and other parts of the | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
world. Only 300 kilometres between Libya and European shores. That's | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
the problem. The UN fixed the government there, the national | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
government. The problem is, it's completely different from imposing | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
law and order, giving the people what they want. Now Libya is a | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
failed state. Islamic State is moving again. More than 8000 of | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
their fighters have their own emirates and they are expanding. | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
Weapons, there are more than 30 million pieces of weapon there. | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
Africans and Middle East and is coming to Libya, taking the bows to | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
Europe. How are we going to do it now? David Cameron said that we must | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
send a warship to prevent migrants from coming to this country -- | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
boats. Something else extremely important is terrorism, what will we | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
do with this? France suffered from this, Belgium... Just some | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
historical context, even when Gaddafi was in power, one of the | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
ways he used to negotiate was his networks, from the Horn of Africa | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
and sub Saharan Africa, with migration, the numbers went anything | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
like we are seeing now, but they existed. He said he can ignore what | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
happens in his ports, but the people would come up, people smuggling | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
routes are well-established. They go back at least one decade. I remember | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
stories about Lampedusa being overcrowded, in 2003, 2004 and 2005. | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
Very small scale. I understand, but the point I want to make his in | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
addition to anything else, with Britain and France, Barack Obama's | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
view is, we will help you guys out but this is your situation to deal | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
with. Neither Francois Hollande or Cameron had a plan for what would | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
happen after they got rid of Colonel Gaddafi. You can do that. You can | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
get rid of a dictator if you are the first world Nato countries, fairly | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
quickly. We saw it in Iraq and Libya. They failed to realise that | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
actually this would reopen... Actually, the frame is different. | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
I'm getting really emotional about this. To talk about these people as | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
"Illegal immigrants", you create the mess, the West goes in and creates | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
the mess. That happened in a rock. I remember the nonsense coming from | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
France at the time, -- Iraq. Intellectuals coming on television | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
saying, we have to do this, as if it was a computer game. It seems | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Western leadership thinks it is a computer game and you are shooting | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
the sky down. There is no... Where did the sub Saharan Africans come | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
from, is that the fault of the West also? You talk about Libya, saying | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
that the Libyans coming here are not well fall immigrants. You create | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
total chaos in that country as if it is a game, and now you take no | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
responsibility? France should take these people. They started it. They | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
should. France. We started it! If I remember, well, it was a UN | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
resolution. To save the people of Benghazi. That is why Britain and | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
France, the Americans did not want to deal with it too much, they | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
intervened. There was no plan B. I could not agree more. What I'm most | :13:36. | :13:45. | |
worried about is IS in Libya. There are public executions every day. We | :13:46. | :13:55. | |
also know that they intend... It is like Raqqa or Mosul, they intend for | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Libya to be the vanguard of the caliphate. They are closer to Europe | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
and plan attacks on Rome, Paris, and Europe. That is what I worry | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
about... You should worry about the people of Libya as much. It is not | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
about Europe... The people on the boats and large are not people from | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
Libya. Let me explain. Firstly, the people of Libya, now, half of them | :14:22. | :14:30. | |
immigrate to Egypt and it juniors are -- and Tunisia. They are in a | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
very bad situation. 3 million Libyans at least now, they are | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
facing a very difficult time in XL. In Tunisia and Egypt. Because they | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
are looking out for their own safety -- exile. The problem is no one | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
cares for those people. They should care about the Syrian plight and | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
migrants who managed to cross to Europe. Nobody is talking about the | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
Libyans or helping them. Not in France or Britain. What I want to | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
say now is, look, the West are really going back again. France and | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
Britain, the US, they are going back again to Libya. There are special | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
British forces in Libya. Jordanian forces in Libya, French special | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
forces in Libya working there. Because of Isis? Yes. They care | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
about Isis. They do not care about the Libyan people, they do not care | :15:26. | :15:33. | |
about Libya is self. They do not care for anyone else because they | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
ask Ed that Isis could cause problems in Europe. I just want to | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
reiterate this point. -- they ask Ed. We talk about the disintegration | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
of Libya, the migrants coming three Libya, by and large come from sub | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
Saharan Africa and the Horn of Africa -- scared. It seems the real | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
work to slow this mess down is to be done primarily in West Africa and | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
the Horn of Africa. How do you do that and educate people? I've spoken | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
with colleagues who work Africa all the time. I say, don't these | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
pictures get on the news? Pictures like we saw this week, the horrible | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
vote thinking. Of course they are on the news all the time, and everyone | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
knows. If you knew how desperate the situation is... -- boat sinking. | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
Whether there is chaos in Libya or not, it is because of agricultural | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
failure, crop failures, political unrest, because of other things, way | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
south, there will always be a route. Sending one gun boat will not do a | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
lot. It's like we have reached the 21st-century and we still have not | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
worked out a way of making the world a more equal place. When there is | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
such great inequality, right, within nations, even within the West and | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
even more so now between the rest and the West, the poor is | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
unstoppable. By now, we should have had better trade deals, better | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
encouragement for entrepreneurs. It is happening small scale. I don't | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
necessarily disagree, but even this week, you would have seen articles | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
in any number of places about absolute poverty being in dramatic | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
decline. Figures from the UN, the IMF, about how much more money is | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
flowing into Africa. GDP and relative poverty... Fewer access to | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
the Internet, in sub-Saharan African comedy with the cold on, that's a | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
better life and $40,000 I can get it. A perfectly reasonable thing to | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
thing, isn't it? -- you think hold on, a better life and $40,000. The | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
UN do that very well. It is not much talked about, but we are doing | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
things. You cannot blame the West, for all of the evil in the world... | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
I do! You shouldn't! They have done a lot of good. And the Zika virus, I | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
give you that. There are 3 million Libyans left, you should have them. | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
We used to get a lot of refugees from South Africa, OK? It is very | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
hard in South Africa. But there is hope, growth, and a kind of national | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
pride that has grown. And so you get very few people coming now. Things | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
can change. Uganda, it changed and has now gone back again to a | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
dictatorship. I think that Africa is the future. But, until we give them | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
a chance, I would trade deals are rocking to the core when we deal | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
with African countries, right? Then, this flow will carry on. It will | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
help no one. Populations shift in these numbers. Actually. Let's move | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
on. But given Mr Trump's, shall we say, | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
unorthodox style of campaigning, how should Hillary Clinton prepare | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
for the presidential debates? And who should she get | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
to play Donald Trump I'm sure this is exercising much | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
more than policy matters! But debating Donald Trump, giving you | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
trying to debate someone who is a bit of a shape shifter on political | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
matters will be very tricky for her? It's interesting you bring the up | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
debate. Earlier in the week, he said, I'm going to debate Bernie | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
Sanders. In the last few hours, he will not. Exactly. And Bernie | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
Sanders said yes? Yes committee called him out. With burly | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
challengers, you have two stand-up. -- bully. He said he will do it. I | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
don't know what she can do. It will be the two parallel universes in | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
America. Face-to-face, on a television set. They will be talking | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
past each other, over each other, and didn't Donald Trump's case, | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
below each other. It will be a bizarre spectacle -- and in Donald | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
Trump was he called Elizabeth Warren from Oklahoma Poca hunters. I did | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
not get that... Explain. She is one of the leading lights of real | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
liberals, new Deal liberals, the left in America. People thought she | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
might challenge Hillary Clinton. She didn't. Bernie Sanders decided to | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
get into the race when Elizabeth Warren decided to stay out -- | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Pocahontas. She claims to have Cherokee blood. She comes from | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
Oklahoma. The Cherokees were removed from Florida to Oklahoma in an | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
infamous incident at ethnic cleansing. The trail of tears. On | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
her birth certificate, Donald Trump loves birth certificates, it does | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
not make any mention of this. She was challenged on it, and said that | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
her mother... She had a grandmother... It is entirely | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
possible that she has Cherokee blood. So now he calls her | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
Pocahontas. The rudeness of that... I had to censor myself here. It | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
would be like someone coming on, I have an -- and African-American | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
grandfather, and if Donald Trump was to use some incredibly racist term | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
to say... That is shocking. How do you do with that in a televised | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
debate? Presumably, he is playing to a particular gallery that would find | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
that funny or interesting, amusing or intelligible. While the other | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
half of America would think it is just bonkers. I think the only way | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
she can do it is ignore him. One of the tricks you learn in difficult | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
debates is to talk to the audience, not the man. Every time he comes up | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
with something stupid, ignore him, perhaps bring in a slight reference, | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
and do your page. The problem with Hillary Clinton is that she comes | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
across as humourless and tight -- pitch. And defensive, all of these | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
things. She should think I'm going to be in a studio with some zoo | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
animal or cage fighter... I don't have to relate to him, I will relate | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
to the audience. Is the only way she can do it. You cannot talk to this | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
man, can you? I'm not sure, if someone can do it, I think she can. | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
She has prepared since she was a student. She is a brilliant woman. I | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
think that she has everything it takes to combat Donald Trump. Except | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
for one thing. She's been preparing all her life | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
but has not learned how to campaign. And she's been married to the best | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
campaigner in our generation. It is about scoring. She knows about | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
one-liners... There's that old phrase about campaigning in poetry, | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
you govern in prose. She is a very good at the poetry. She wants to | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
convince the people and she has to find a way. He's a bulldozer. Donald | :23:03. | :23:14. | |
Trump. He is funny, he manages to entertain people. Politically, she | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
does not have the sparkle, to be honest. She is not a good debater. | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
That is why I believe the chances of Donald Trump could be much bigger. | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
Already, he got his lot of people. If there is a debate, Hillary | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
Clinton could emerge the greatest loser in this. I'm going to act her. | :23:36. | :23:46. | |
He is Trump... He has made some mad comment, all she needs to do is... | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
And say what she wants to say! I thought the best way to handle it is | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
the Ronald Reagan... There you go again... That kind of thing. Michael | :23:56. | :24:04. | |
Goldfarb suggested could play Hillary... | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
Goldfarb suggested could play She needs Hollywood. She needs the | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
best screenwriters to write the lines. She is very good, that is the | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
American way. She is not going to improvise. We should get Berlusconi | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
income he doesn't have a job! -- income he does not have a job. | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
Unfortunately he is not here, Colonel Gaddafi. He could be a great | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
debater! This is serious, Donald Trump for president, yes, a | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
possibility? I feel your pain! Look, as Professor Eric Finer told me in | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
January, is the best I've heard, once you are the nominee of two | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
major parties, you are in with a chance. I would not bet the house on | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
it. There is nothing I've seen yet that would change my mind. He has a | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
chance, I would not bet the house on it. Precisely because Hillary | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
Clinton is weak, and to come back to this messaging stuff, one of the | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
problems is she's been at it for so long, and those around her have been | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
with her forever. I think that they see each other through a political | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
lens that may have worked 15 years ago. It does not work today. They | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
still very attached to identity politics as a way forward. Yes, it | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
is well past time for America to have a woman president. But it | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
cannot be in 2016, your main calling card. What I fear in debates is | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
that, you know, she will dredge up the horrible things that Donald | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
Trump says about women. And it will not be enough. Also it is inside | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
versus outsider, it has been the decade of the outsider in many | :25:56. | :25:56. | |
countries. Absolutely. That's it for Dateline | :25:57. | :25:58. | |
London for this week. You can comment on the programme | :25:59. | :26:00. | |
on Twitter @gavinesler. We're back next week | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
at the same time. | :26:03. | :26:05. |