28/05/2016 Dateline London


28/05/2016

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Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

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Should the Zika virus mean the Olympics are moved from Rio?

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Libya and the new route for refugees and migrants into Europe.

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Plus: how can Hillary Clinton prepare for the presidential

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My guests are: Michael Golfarb of Politico Europe.

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Yasmin Alibhai Brown, the writer and broadcaster.

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Agnes Poirier of Marianne, and Abdel Bari Atwan, who is an Arab

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writer and commentator. More than 100 leading health experts

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are demanding that the Olympic Games in Rio are moved or postponed

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as a result of the threat from the Zika virus.

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Given the enormous sums of money involved, the political prestige,

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the careers of athletes, will the International Olympic Committee

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What do you think about this? It is quite a shock to get people who are

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well versed in virology to say that the game should be moved or

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postponed? It is a shock to have it now, we've known about the Zika

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virus, I think officially the world health organisation issued an

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emergency statement warning pregnant women or young women not to travel

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to Brazil, that was three months ago. So, why do we get this letter

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now? The average citizen, i.e., asked, relies on the UN or this

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agency to actually do their work. We have malaria, so many scientists in

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the world, top rate scientists, working on the subject. Fine, now

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they are throwing this letter in the public domain. What are we to

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believe? The world health organisation now says, very quickly,

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know this is going to be fine. Perhaps they could commission an

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independent survey, or investigation. That's what struck me

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about it, you have these experts who say it should not happen, the WHO

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said that Zika is a real threat, and now say that the games should go

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ahead. You think, who can we trust? None of us are virology to, what do

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you think? To be honest, I'm shocked. Who are they? 106 to

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doctors. Thousands of doctors, they all say the same. Are they more

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informed than the WHO -- 160. For example, its well-known and well

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established, these experts in their field. And our other athletes --

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that athletes, they more about then then the citizens of Brazil? What

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about the millions of people going to Brazil? Brazil is passing through

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a very difficult time. There is a huge economy crisis. There is a

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transitional period, we know that. And a political crisis. Yes, why are

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those 160 doctors, are they going to make the situation extremely

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difficult? It's a conspiracy! It's not a conspiracy. It's not. OK, but

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we have to think of this country and think of their people. Yes, but I

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don't think 160 doctors are being governed by an evil master

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elsewhere... They have written this letter... They are not from

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Africa... They are Americans as well... Americans, yes. Another

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conspiracy. But what you said is right. Why isn't the WHO changing

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its message. So drastically, from what it was saying three months ago?

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That is the alternative conspiracy, if I may say so. All of these big

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bodies, they know there is so much money at stake. They don't say

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anything. When you read out the news earlier, I said in the Green room,

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he's got it wrong. The WHO cannot possibly say that. I think there is

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something there. But, at the moment... I'm not going into it...

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Conspiracy of the day! It is not a conspiracy, I think that there's a

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real threat, I think it's an unknown threat because we don't know enough

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about it. And I do think that the IOC has to rethink and moved to a

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different place. It is their responsibility. Is very unlikely. It

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will not happen, to answer your question, a few minutes ago, the

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tie-break between the WHO and bees 100 odd doctors, for me the centre

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of disease control in Atlanta, they say that they agree with the WHO --

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the use. It is entirely possible that in the world of science, there

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is a significant minority who disagree and have gone public with

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it -- these. Fair enough. The deeper question to talk about Brazil is

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what is happening politically. If there is anything that is a real

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threat to the Olympic Games, it's possible, I suppose, to see a

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country that begins to disintegrate politically just at the moment went

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it is here -- when it is having its political showcase. It happens every

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time there's an Olympics. There's always a crisis. Yes, it is going to

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be a shambles... It is not. It is not the same. The traffic wouldn't

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work, it was going to take ours... And it happens... And the euro in

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France! It is not the same, I think we should take this seriously. These

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are professional people. I'm saying that you cannot miss trust

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professional doctors who have written a letter, you cannot just

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dismiss them because the WHO says, you need to make a careful note. If

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they wrote this letter, there might be a danger. If something happens it

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will be the poorest countries with the poorest women who will pay the

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price. That is what virology is to do so, the real threat is not to

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Britain or developed countries, but cases like India, in Africa... The

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carriers, if they do... Let me say one thing in this case. OK, the WHO

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said that there are 60 countries who had the virus, are we going to ban

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all the tourists and visitors from coming to us here? Auto anywhere,

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simply because those doctors, those 160 said that the virus could be

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spreading? From a wider angle, I believe the WHO is... How much did

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they pay you? Part of the conspiracy! Just a final thought.

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There's one very serious point. Everyone has touched on it in a

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different way, these international so I could kill showcases, Euro 2016

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is another one, they breed stresses and strains. The Olympic site going

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to be a disaster, probably not. They are probably going to be fine.

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Security concerns in France for Euro 2016, how is that playing out in

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France? France is in the grip of general strikes. And in two weeks'

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time, we have the Euro 2016 competition, we are in a state of

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emergency. 90,000 policemen, they now have other things to do,

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clashing with extreme left demonstrators industries of every

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single city in France. Everything is fine! You were speaking, I was

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reminded of a famous French general who said the left is collapsing, the

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rear is that thing, the centre... I shall advance! We said many times on

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this programme... on refugees and migrants closes

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in Turkey and Greece, it will simply That became especially clear this

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week, with the loss of more lives and heart stopping scenes

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of about overturning. But what is the responsibility

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of Britain, France, and to a lesser extent the United States in Libya,

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given the role these countries played in the overthrow

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of Colonel Gaddafi? I mean, do you think that we are

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reaping what we sow it? In other words, the toppling of a dictator,

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however horrible, has created conditions of chaos that has allowed

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people to come through? Toppling a dictator is something -ish truly

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dangerous, and counter-productive in a way or another. But, Britain,

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France, the US, they never had a plan B. They had a plan to topple

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the dictator, he was a tyrant and awful, no question of that. But

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people were looking at the intervention, military intervention,

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as a good thing. They are thinking that Nato, 28 of the most civilised

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countries on earth, they will make Libya a haven. A model for

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everybody. That has not happened. President Obama, he summarised it in

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a very emotional way, when he said that the biggest regret of his

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presidency, his two terms in presidency, was the intervention in

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Libya. He blamed Sarkozy and Cameron for this to buckle. The problem is,

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in this programme, we used to say several times that you are sensitive

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to the problem of migration -- debacle. Libya has about 2000

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kilometres along the Mediterranean shore. This would be a springboard

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for illegal immigrant is to come to this country and other parts of the

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world. Only 300 kilometres between Libya and European shores. That's

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the problem. The UN fixed the government there, the national

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government. The problem is, it's completely different from imposing

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law and order, giving the people what they want. Now Libya is a

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failed state. Islamic State is moving again. More than 8000 of

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their fighters have their own emirates and they are expanding.

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Weapons, there are more than 30 million pieces of weapon there.

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Africans and Middle East and is coming to Libya, taking the bows to

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Europe. How are we going to do it now? David Cameron said that we must

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send a warship to prevent migrants from coming to this country --

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boats. Something else extremely important is terrorism, what will we

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do with this? France suffered from this, Belgium... Just some

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historical context, even when Gaddafi was in power, one of the

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ways he used to negotiate was his networks, from the Horn of Africa

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and sub Saharan Africa, with migration, the numbers went anything

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like we are seeing now, but they existed. He said he can ignore what

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happens in his ports, but the people would come up, people smuggling

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routes are well-established. They go back at least one decade. I remember

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stories about Lampedusa being overcrowded, in 2003, 2004 and 2005.

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Very small scale. I understand, but the point I want to make his in

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addition to anything else, with Britain and France, Barack Obama's

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view is, we will help you guys out but this is your situation to deal

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with. Neither Francois Hollande or Cameron had a plan for what would

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happen after they got rid of Colonel Gaddafi. You can do that. You can

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get rid of a dictator if you are the first world Nato countries, fairly

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quickly. We saw it in Iraq and Libya. They failed to realise that

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actually this would reopen... Actually, the frame is different.

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I'm getting really emotional about this. To talk about these people as

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"Illegal immigrants", you create the mess, the West goes in and creates

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the mess. That happened in a rock. I remember the nonsense coming from

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France at the time, -- Iraq. Intellectuals coming on television

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saying, we have to do this, as if it was a computer game. It seems

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Western leadership thinks it is a computer game and you are shooting

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the sky down. There is no... Where did the sub Saharan Africans come

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from, is that the fault of the West also? You talk about Libya, saying

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that the Libyans coming here are not well fall immigrants. You create

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total chaos in that country as if it is a game, and now you take no

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responsibility? France should take these people. They started it. They

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should. France. We started it! If I remember, well, it was a UN

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resolution. To save the people of Benghazi. That is why Britain and

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France, the Americans did not want to deal with it too much, they

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intervened. There was no plan B. I could not agree more. What I'm most

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worried about is IS in Libya. There are public executions every day. We

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also know that they intend... It is like Raqqa or Mosul, they intend for

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Libya to be the vanguard of the caliphate. They are closer to Europe

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and plan attacks on Rome, Paris, and Europe. That is what I worry

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about... You should worry about the people of Libya as much. It is not

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about Europe... The people on the boats and large are not people from

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Libya. Let me explain. Firstly, the people of Libya, now, half of them

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immigrate to Egypt and it juniors are -- and Tunisia. They are in a

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very bad situation. 3 million Libyans at least now, they are

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facing a very difficult time in XL. In Tunisia and Egypt. Because they

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are looking out for their own safety -- exile. The problem is no one

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cares for those people. They should care about the Syrian plight and

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migrants who managed to cross to Europe. Nobody is talking about the

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Libyans or helping them. Not in France or Britain. What I want to

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say now is, look, the West are really going back again. France and

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Britain, the US, they are going back again to Libya. There are special

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British forces in Libya. Jordanian forces in Libya, French special

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forces in Libya working there. Because of Isis? Yes. They care

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about Isis. They do not care about the Libyan people, they do not care

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about Libya is self. They do not care for anyone else because they

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ask Ed that Isis could cause problems in Europe. I just want to

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reiterate this point. -- they ask Ed. We talk about the disintegration

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of Libya, the migrants coming three Libya, by and large come from sub

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Saharan Africa and the Horn of Africa -- scared. It seems the real

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work to slow this mess down is to be done primarily in West Africa and

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the Horn of Africa. How do you do that and educate people? I've spoken

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with colleagues who work Africa all the time. I say, don't these

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pictures get on the news? Pictures like we saw this week, the horrible

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vote thinking. Of course they are on the news all the time, and everyone

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knows. If you knew how desperate the situation is... -- boat sinking.

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Whether there is chaos in Libya or not, it is because of agricultural

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failure, crop failures, political unrest, because of other things, way

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south, there will always be a route. Sending one gun boat will not do a

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lot. It's like we have reached the 21st-century and we still have not

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worked out a way of making the world a more equal place. When there is

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such great inequality, right, within nations, even within the West and

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even more so now between the rest and the West, the poor is

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unstoppable. By now, we should have had better trade deals, better

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encouragement for entrepreneurs. It is happening small scale. I don't

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necessarily disagree, but even this week, you would have seen articles

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in any number of places about absolute poverty being in dramatic

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decline. Figures from the UN, the IMF, about how much more money is

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flowing into Africa. GDP and relative poverty... Fewer access to

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the Internet, in sub-Saharan African comedy with the cold on, that's a

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better life and $40,000 I can get it. A perfectly reasonable thing to

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thing, isn't it? -- you think hold on, a better life and $40,000. The

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UN do that very well. It is not much talked about, but we are doing

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things. You cannot blame the West, for all of the evil in the world...

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I do! You shouldn't! They have done a lot of good. And the Zika virus, I

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give you that. There are 3 million Libyans left, you should have them.

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We used to get a lot of refugees from South Africa, OK? It is very

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hard in South Africa. But there is hope, growth, and a kind of national

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pride that has grown. And so you get very few people coming now. Things

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can change. Uganda, it changed and has now gone back again to a

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dictatorship. I think that Africa is the future. But, until we give them

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a chance, I would trade deals are rocking to the core when we deal

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with African countries, right? Then, this flow will carry on. It will

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help no one. Populations shift in these numbers. Actually. Let's move

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on. But given Mr Trump's, shall we say,

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unorthodox style of campaigning, how should Hillary Clinton prepare

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for the presidential debates? And who should she get

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to play Donald Trump I'm sure this is exercising much

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more than policy matters! But debating Donald Trump, giving you

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trying to debate someone who is a bit of a shape shifter on political

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matters will be very tricky for her? It's interesting you bring the up

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debate. Earlier in the week, he said, I'm going to debate Bernie

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Sanders. In the last few hours, he will not. Exactly. And Bernie

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Sanders said yes? Yes committee called him out. With burly

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challengers, you have two stand-up. -- bully. He said he will do it. I

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don't know what she can do. It will be the two parallel universes in

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America. Face-to-face, on a television set. They will be talking

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past each other, over each other, and didn't Donald Trump's case,

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below each other. It will be a bizarre spectacle -- and in Donald

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Trump was he called Elizabeth Warren from Oklahoma Poca hunters. I did

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not get that... Explain. She is one of the leading lights of real

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liberals, new Deal liberals, the left in America. People thought she

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might challenge Hillary Clinton. She didn't. Bernie Sanders decided to

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get into the race when Elizabeth Warren decided to stay out --

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Pocahontas. She claims to have Cherokee blood. She comes from

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Oklahoma. The Cherokees were removed from Florida to Oklahoma in an

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infamous incident at ethnic cleansing. The trail of tears. On

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her birth certificate, Donald Trump loves birth certificates, it does

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not make any mention of this. She was challenged on it, and said that

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her mother... She had a grandmother... It is entirely

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possible that she has Cherokee blood. So now he calls her

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Pocahontas. The rudeness of that... I had to censor myself here. It

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would be like someone coming on, I have an -- and African-American

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grandfather, and if Donald Trump was to use some incredibly racist term

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to say... That is shocking. How do you do with that in a televised

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debate? Presumably, he is playing to a particular gallery that would find

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that funny or interesting, amusing or intelligible. While the other

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half of America would think it is just bonkers. I think the only way

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she can do it is ignore him. One of the tricks you learn in difficult

:21:44.:21:47.

debates is to talk to the audience, not the man. Every time he comes up

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with something stupid, ignore him, perhaps bring in a slight reference,

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and do your page. The problem with Hillary Clinton is that she comes

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across as humourless and tight -- pitch. And defensive, all of these

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things. She should think I'm going to be in a studio with some zoo

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animal or cage fighter... I don't have to relate to him, I will relate

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to the audience. Is the only way she can do it. You cannot talk to this

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man, can you? I'm not sure, if someone can do it, I think she can.

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She has prepared since she was a student. She is a brilliant woman. I

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think that she has everything it takes to combat Donald Trump. Except

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for one thing. She's been preparing all her life

:22:40.:22:43.

but has not learned how to campaign. And she's been married to the best

:22:44.:22:48.

campaigner in our generation. It is about scoring. She knows about

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one-liners... There's that old phrase about campaigning in poetry,

:22:54.:22:59.

you govern in prose. She is a very good at the poetry. She wants to

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convince the people and she has to find a way. He's a bulldozer. Donald

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Trump. He is funny, he manages to entertain people. Politically, she

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does not have the sparkle, to be honest. She is not a good debater.

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That is why I believe the chances of Donald Trump could be much bigger.

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Already, he got his lot of people. If there is a debate, Hillary

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Clinton could emerge the greatest loser in this. I'm going to act her.

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He is Trump... He has made some mad comment, all she needs to do is...

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And say what she wants to say! I thought the best way to handle it is

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the Ronald Reagan... There you go again... That kind of thing. Michael

:23:56.:24:04.

Goldfarb suggested could play Hillary...

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Goldfarb suggested could play She needs Hollywood. She needs the

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best screenwriters to write the lines. She is very good, that is the

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American way. She is not going to improvise. We should get Berlusconi

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income he doesn't have a job! -- income he does not have a job.

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Unfortunately he is not here, Colonel Gaddafi. He could be a great

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debater! This is serious, Donald Trump for president, yes, a

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possibility? I feel your pain! Look, as Professor Eric Finer told me in

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January, is the best I've heard, once you are the nominee of two

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major parties, you are in with a chance. I would not bet the house on

:24:58.:25:01.

it. There is nothing I've seen yet that would change my mind. He has a

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chance, I would not bet the house on it. Precisely because Hillary

:25:07.:25:11.

Clinton is weak, and to come back to this messaging stuff, one of the

:25:12.:25:16.

problems is she's been at it for so long, and those around her have been

:25:17.:25:20.

with her forever. I think that they see each other through a political

:25:21.:25:24.

lens that may have worked 15 years ago. It does not work today. They

:25:25.:25:29.

still very attached to identity politics as a way forward. Yes, it

:25:30.:25:34.

is well past time for America to have a woman president. But it

:25:35.:25:40.

cannot be in 2016, your main calling card. What I fear in debates is

:25:41.:25:45.

that, you know, she will dredge up the horrible things that Donald

:25:46.:25:48.

Trump says about women. And it will not be enough. Also it is inside

:25:49.:25:55.

versus outsider, it has been the decade of the outsider in many

:25:56.:25:56.

countries. Absolutely. That's it for Dateline

:25:57.:25:58.

London for this week. You can comment on the programme

:25:59.:26:00.

on Twitter @gavinesler. We're back next week

:26:01.:26:02.

at the same time.

:26:03.:26:05.

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