05/06/2016 Dateline London


05/06/2016

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Rights says the army is pressing in from the south-west, while Kurdish

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forces are pressing in from the north. Now, it is time for

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Dateline. Hello and welcome to

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Dateline London. On today's programme,

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three questions about Britain What would be the impact

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on immigration? Why does Vladimir Putin want Britain

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to leave? And if the Labour Party leader,

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Jeremy Corbyn, wants us to stay, why are some Labour supporters

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confused about what he thinks? Plus, the world mourns the death

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of Muhammad Ali. My guests this week are Dmitri

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Shiskin from BBC global news, Nesrine Malik, a Sudanese writer,

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Polly Toynbee of the Guardian, Let's begin with the death

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of Muhammad Ali. How he's seeing now is very

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different from the way he was seen in America, say,

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in the early 70s, when some people, The important thing to remember

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about Ali, I'll always think The important thing to remember

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about the champ is, he could very easily have gone

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forward into the Army in 1966 He was required to do so by law,

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the army would have been very happy to have him, he could have been

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an exhibition fighter in the Army, he would never have been sent

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overseas and put in harm's way. Instead, he refused to step forward,

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refused to be inducted into the army, and he said something that

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was very memorable, he said, I ain't To American ears at that time

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at the height of the escalation, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon's

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era, this was seen as high treason. He was seen as a traitor, seen

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as a threat to national security. Stripped of his licence to fight,

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stripped of his livelihood. Completely in exile for three

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and a half years. During those years, white America

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very much despised him. There were places he could not go

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safely, he would need bodyguards to keep him

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from being lynched or assassinated. So he was seen, really,

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as a major threat. When his conviction was eventually

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overturned and he could fight again, there were still people in

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the South who said, no, forget it, we don't care if he has a licence,

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he'll never fight in our state, Really despise this man

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and he was able to fight... He was able to work through that to

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wear 20 years later or so, when they opened the Olympics in Atlanta,

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he was the man who lit the flame. Extraordinary act of gravely,

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actually, what he did, It was a very, very brave

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and unpopular thing to do. Very brave, he made the politics

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of race real to people. You know, he was charming, witty,

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extraordinary, brilliant boxer. But he put himself on the line in

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a way that was very confrontational to whites in America,

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white across the western world. They suddenly realised, this is

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real, this is how people feel. Many

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of us who never had much interest in boxing to begin with, when he

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was fighting, somehow he brought people in because as a character he

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was so interesting, you wanted to The thing that stands out for me now

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is, you begin to see Muhammad Ali's self aggrandising sort of back

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patting encouragement to black men through his own self aggrandising

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meant as something that has had a legacy all the way

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down to popular entertainment, hip-hop, sport, there is a legacy,

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a kind of culture, of black men in general trying to shore themselves

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up, and their confidence up, Yes, it's problematic,

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it can sometimes be misogynistic, it can sometimes be divisive, but it

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does strike that there is something political about the sort of

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obnoxiousness narcissism of it all. Maybe you should explain that a bit

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more, what do you mean about that? So, for example, there is

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a criticism and controversy around hip-hop artists, black hip-hop

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artists, trying to make themselves look better and glorifying

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themselves and their achievements and the money they have

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and the women they have, and the fact they are popular

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and can get what ever they want. But it is a political point as well,

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it's not just kind of a masculine narcissism,

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it's also a way to counteract all the subjugation and subordination

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of the popular culture of tearing Part of that, though, the difference

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is, presumably, one of the critiques of hip-hop and so one

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is about bling, consumerism, money. This was somebody who took a stand,

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he was regarded as a traitor, This was actually very different,

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even if it put him There's a point Muhammad Ali

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which is that he... You can only sleep in one bed

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and you can only drive one car, So he was very anti-materialistic

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when it comes to that sort of thing. But there is a line to be drawn,

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a continuity, from him down to the sort of materialistic narcissism of

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popular culture in black America. I guess this is why he was

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so welcome in the Soviet Union Not only he was a symbol of black

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men fighting for their rights across the world, but he also, what was

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actually behind what happened is that he actually visited Uzbekistan,

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the Muslim republic of the Soviet That particular side of his trip was

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not particularly, I guess, It's interesting if you think

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about what he did for boxing as well, there are many people who

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could not name any leading boxers, Everybody can name Muhammad Ali,

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simple as that. He was this great American

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character, whether... We throw up these ornery, unique

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geniuses every 30 or 40 years. He was entertainment personified,

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in every sense, wasn't he? He was funny, he was outrageous,

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he was clever, and it made boxing scene like

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a cleverer sport because of him. When he said to the much loved BBC

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boxing commentator, Harry Carpenter, you ain't as dumb as you look,

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that was very funny. On that note,

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let's move on to other matters, because if we exited European Union

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and adopted an Australian points system for immigration, we could

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exert more control on our borders, that's what the Leave campaign say

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about getting out of the EU. But Australia has more immigrants

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per head of population than the EU. And Brexit would crash the economy,

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that's according to those who want So, what would happen to

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immigration if we leave? If we control immigration,

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is what Vote Leave say. We could, in theory,

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control our borders. How much we would,

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I think the Brexiters are being very They know perfectly well

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how much we need... For instance,

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the NHS would collapse overnight. If we sent everybody home who was

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not a British national working for the NHS, it would simply

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overflow, collapsed tomorrow. They are being very picky

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about how they describe it. Well, you know,

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it's a few Poles perhaps, a few In a point system we probably would

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have all of the people that are coming in now, because they do all

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get jobs, they don't go on the dole, they don't come here for benefits,

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they come here to get jobs As you know, this is an extremely

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potent issue, it suggests there This is something that people

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are very, very concerned about. This seems to be a solution,

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at least. The trouble is, it's not economic,

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it's passionate, it's feeling You know, you live in the east

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of England and suddenly there are Polish and Hungarian delicatessens

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all over the place. The schools are suddenly full

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of children for whom English isn't the first language, European,

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Eastern European kids. Economic arguments don't really cut

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across that, so there is no doubt that the Remain stay in Europe,

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lobby has won overwhelmingly And the people who care most

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about immigration say, All right, we might be a bit poorer,

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but I was talking to someone whose

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family came from the Indian subcontinent this week who said,

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she's in favour of Brexit because it would be fairer to people

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like her family, who, because they merit it, would be more

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likely to get jobs here. Than people from Africa

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and other places. It's really interesting, actually,

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that you bring that up. There is a whole part

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of the immigration debate that is not being parsed sufficiently,

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which is the difference between EU It's interesting new ways that

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point, that areas competition between the fight non-EU

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immigrants and EU immigrants and Then split apart depending on what

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argument you are trying to make. So when people say, you know,

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immigration in the UK is a huge problem, we want, basically,

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all people of colour not to come in and people say, so many non-EU

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immigrants are coming in... Never mind they are all doctors,

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nurses, highly qualified engineers and surgeons, because they have to

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actually meet an income threshold to When it becomes about the EU,

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it's suddenly only EU immigrants What is happening on the ground is

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that these are all people competing The Brexit will sent a leaflet out

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specially to Asians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, saying, do you realise

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your families are being kept out? Your friends are being kept out,

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because we're taking Do they go on television and say,

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we're going to let in lots more Asian families, lots more Muslims,

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they wouldn't dare, because they It's targeted marketing

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that's effective. It works in the United States, too,

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doesn't it? Because people have legitimate fears

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about migration, everywhere, they have legitimate fears about it and

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Donald Trump has done very well. Yes, he's certainly found

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an audience for his rather unusual Yeah, it's the same idea,

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keep these people away. I agree, it's become

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a very emotional argument. What interesting in the last week

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is, the arguments Nigel Farage has been making for 12 years or so about

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a points system all of the sudden is being parroted by the highest levels

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of the Tory party coming from Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and

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like that. His ideas have now become This topic is very close to me

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personally because I came to this country 16 years ago having got

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my work permit from the BBC because Britain could not find a Russian

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speaker to do the Russian broadcast. Another example would be a Russian

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physicist working in Manchester University becoming a Nobel physics

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prize winner, he wouldn't have come to this country a few years ago

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because the highly skilled migrant I think you are right,

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but in terms of saying, yes, highly But the question is, how many Brits

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are living abroad and how many of them would have qualified to stay

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in Spain, for example? One of our colleagues from El Pais,

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the Spanish newspaper, told me estimates differ, he says, Spanish

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Estimates are 800,000 Spanish... Many of whom are older and,

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as he put it, seen as a drain The second point is that I think I

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come from I think smaller societies should be

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about flow of ideas and flow Potentially,

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we can talk tactics strategically. I think

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the world is connected place. If we didn't have turkey inoculation

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parties in the 18th century, those things wouldn't have been

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brought to Britain. Strategically, Europe is going

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to have to think about this. The idea that you can have total

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freedom of movement is under great threat, because you have

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Marine Le Pen in France, you have, you know, the Austrians very nearly

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taken over by a far right party. I'm not sure it's going to be

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sustainable to have no break I don't think one country can do it

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on its own, But I imagine within

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the next five years Europe is going In five years, you may well not have

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a single prominent national leader making an argument in favour

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of the free movement of people. That's the main topic about that,

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right? So, time and time again we're

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about the European Union as a political union and end up

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discussing an economical union. Because, obviously, you know, when

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initially there was the union of steel and coal that was one group of

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pretty even countries, then suddenly It's natural that people

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from Eastern Europe will be coming But they come here, spend money,

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earn money, spend taxes back. You have this conflict,

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where you have you have, say, Poland and Hungary,

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absolutely determined to keep free movement, because their people are

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coming to richer countries. On the other hand, they are putting

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up the biggest steel fences against any Syrians or anybody else

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arriving on their patch. Let's move on,

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because there's a bit of a puzzle. Why does Vladimir Putin support

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the cause of those who want us to So, the Russian press has been

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having a field month about that. It's being portrayed as,

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you know, the country's engulfed in the situation, very close to

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a Shakespeare play, whatever you take, so it's that the magnitude

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of what is happening is huge. Interestingly enough,

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the press is extremely complement of politicians who are seen

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as standing up against the European Union domination, seen as finally

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breaking away from this kind of huge So, clearly,

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supporting Brexit as well. David Cameron seen

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as somebody who is trying to scaremonger people into, bullying

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people into, voting Remain. I think, overall,

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the picture is very clear. The more destabilised the

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European Union is, in any shape or form, be it

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migration from the east or any other You don't have

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a single entity talking to Russia with a single voice,

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you suddenly have 20 plus countries, each trying to potentially actually

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get something back from Russia I've read some stories about, you

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know, Putin was in Greece recently. Courting Greece, Bulgaria,

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Orthodox countries, and some kind of, I don't know,

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cultural union of the orthodox? Remember that in some point in time,

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when Russia and Belarus used to have this union,

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which they still have, but not really, Serbia, at some point

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in time wanted to join as well. Not having a single border with

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any of these two countries. I think, generally, if you think

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about it, this is seen as... Russian press has been portraying it

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as the start of the collapse That's the way it's seen

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by the Russian press? Oh, yes,

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and I think it will be a little bit different how Russian press in

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Russia for internal consumption, Russia today in English would

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probably be a little bit different If you think about it, the people

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they get to conduct interviews for the Russian main channels, they

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obviously all will have, probably will be coming from the very fringes

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of the establishment as we know it here, for example,

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but they will sometimes be portrayed as people who talk in mainstream

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politics, which is not true. I agree with you completely,

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it's quite clear, it makes perfect sense, Putin lived through the

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dismemberment of the Soviet empire. Right now he is seeing

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a parallel here, where the British are perhaps going

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to break themselves out of this huge block and he could also see that as

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potentially a first chink in Nato. Though they are not

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going to leave Nato. It makes perfect sense it would

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fit his mid term strategic goals. I think it's really interesting

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that you can actually... A lot of people have performed

:16:43.:16:45.

ventriloquism his behalf. He's never actually come out

:16:46.:16:48.

and said very clearly, Maybe because he's clever enough

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to know that it would be a huge What they are doing is lining up all

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these bogeyman, who support Brexit. Trump thinks Brexit is good,

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Putin now thinks Brexit is good. It's interesting that

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for someone who is not backward in coming forward he hasn't

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actually made a very clear statement There's a good reason why,

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after all, if you think what happened at the

:17:21.:17:22.

collapse of the USSR, Europe took in those Eastern European countries

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in order to protect them from ever It was seen by a lot of Russians

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as being a hostile act. The fact that we almost suggested we

:17:29.:17:34.

would defend them, We have played around

:17:35.:17:37.

at the edges of their empire in ways that, of course, they would

:17:38.:17:46.

want Europe to be weakened. Plus you also have these things

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went, locally, if you have some For example,

:17:50.:17:54.

when Cameron or the Leave campaign or Brexit campaign mention him

:17:55.:18:04.

in any sort of circumstance, for example, they put him in the

:18:05.:18:07.

same sentence as IS, for example. IS will be happy about, you know,

:18:08.:18:11.

Britain leaving, and Putin will be. Obviously, the Kremlin doesn't like

:18:12.:18:14.

that kind of comparison, do they? Let's move on because the leader of

:18:15.:18:18.

the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, has been accused of some Labour Party

:18:19.:18:25.

supporters of not being clear enough on why he thinks Britain should stay

:18:26.:18:28.

within the European Union. Mr Corbyn blamed, in part,

:18:29.:18:31.

the mainstream media. He's been particularly critical of

:18:32.:18:33.

the Guardian newspaper and the BBC. One of the problems is that he

:18:34.:18:36.

simply is unaware It's as if he only has one eye

:18:37.:18:42.

when he looks. When he sees the press, he sees

:18:43.:18:48.

everything in the centre from the I don't think he probably ever reads

:18:49.:18:51.

or knows about the rest of it. Just as he doesn't realise

:18:52.:19:00.

there are conservative He's only interested in winning

:19:01.:19:03.

over the greens and the far left. If he doesn't get 1000% support from

:19:04.:19:08.

the Guardian or The New Statesman, or indeed, as he sees it, support

:19:09.:19:17.

from the BBC, then they are hostile. It's part of the dysfunctionality of

:19:18.:19:21.

his political vision, I'm afraid. The Guardian, The New Statesman,

:19:22.:19:29.

he gets a better shout from us. We're a wide rainbow of people,

:19:30.:19:34.

pro-Corbyn and anti-Corbyn. He gets a better shout

:19:35.:19:36.

from us than anyone else. I don't think he knows the

:19:37.:19:39.

Daily Mail exists. I mean, there is

:19:40.:19:41.

a view within Labour, and we've seen half a dozen former people who fled

:19:42.:19:47.

the party, including a couple who fled it for a short time, being very

:19:48.:19:51.

clear that Labour is for Remain. That message hasn't got

:19:52.:19:58.

through to many people, and some people are blaming Jeremy

:19:59.:20:01.

Corbyn for not being loud enough. I think Corbyn has not

:20:02.:20:04.

been forceful on this. He's been outmanoeuvred or certainly

:20:05.:20:07.

outshined by Sadiq Khan, who made a Made a big appearance with

:20:08.:20:10.

David Cameron and made it very clear how much he thought London had

:20:11.:20:19.

riding on a Remain vote. Corbyn is not good

:20:20.:20:21.

at getting his message out, and it's hard to tell how important

:20:22.:20:24.

this is or is not to him. The most articulate spokesman I've

:20:25.:20:27.

heard on this topic in the last 18 months has been Tony Blair,

:20:28.:20:31.

who is completely discredited. Nobody wants to put Tony Blair

:20:32.:20:34.

forward but, in fact, if you dig out some interviews, he's given Radio 4

:20:35.:20:38.

over the years, he can make the most passionate, intelligent,

:20:39.:20:41.

rational case for remaining. Such a shame he didn't

:20:42.:20:44.

when he was Prime Minister, he didn't make one single speech about

:20:45.:20:47.

Europe in this country in 13 years. The only speeches he ever

:20:48.:20:53.

made were in Europe. Oh, no, it wasn't, he said,

:20:54.:20:55.

I'm going out there to a summit to So he was complicit,

:20:56.:21:03.

as Labour have always been, I think it's so interesting Tony

:21:04.:21:07.

Blair has kind of come online now. Because you see the contrast

:21:08.:21:10.

between him and Corbyn. Then you see the contrast

:21:11.:21:13.

between the sort of centre-left, wooing of the centre,

:21:14.:21:15.

winning over conservative voters, Old school, kind of regressive,

:21:16.:21:17.

fixated, hard left infighting you So you think, if we don't think

:21:18.:21:28.

Corbyn is being, sort of, centrist enough or are wearing off of people

:21:29.:21:37.

who vote Tory and thinking, you are Tories, you are the lost case,

:21:38.:21:41.

we'll just go and try and win more left-wing voters,

:21:42.:21:44.

if we think that is the wrong way to go, surely the contrast that is

:21:45.:21:47.

Tony Blair and how he did things. I think what's been absolutely

:21:48.:21:51.

fascinating in how the past few months have played out is that what

:21:52.:21:56.

is clear is the British left doesn't know what it wants in terms of how

:21:57.:22:00.

it's going to govern, let alone how There are those who say, in fact,

:22:01.:22:03.

there was an article in the Guardian this weekend that suggested the

:22:04.:22:10.

British left has got a tough press because the press in general likes

:22:11.:22:13.

to pick winners and people who are successful and they don't see

:22:14.:22:16.

Jeremy Corbyn as a likely The same for Gordon Brown,

:22:17.:22:19.

I completely agree. I think Corbyn is not the most

:22:20.:22:25.

effective or charismatic person. But he has got a beasting

:22:26.:22:29.

from the press. For viewers abroad,

:22:30.:22:34.

the press in this country is about 85-90% solidly, rabidly

:22:35.:22:38.

right-wing, rabidly anti-European. Any Labour government has to fight

:22:39.:22:44.

against a wall of sound against it. It's only when it looks as if it's

:22:45.:22:48.

actually going to win that they I don't think any other country

:22:49.:22:52.

has as unjust a press as we do. What has also become clear is that

:22:53.:23:02.

this paralysis, some kind of second guessing of the position

:23:03.:23:04.

at the top trickles down in a very Because effectively what's happening

:23:05.:23:08.

is there is no clear signal from the structure of the party as to

:23:09.:23:12.

what the party is all about, right? That means that I haven't had,

:23:13.:23:15.

as a citizen of London, I haven't had a single conversation

:23:16.:23:18.

with a Labour supporter who will knock on my door and talk to me

:23:19.:23:21.

as a voter about the position. I've had a few Tories stopping by

:23:22.:23:25.

in the area where I live. I'm thinking, well,

:23:26.:23:28.

can it be that if the country, if the party is disorganised or

:23:29.:23:30.

confused in that sort of sense, you won't have enough time to organise

:23:31.:23:34.

yourself in the next three weeks. I think Corbyn is very good

:23:35.:23:40.

on the two or three issues he harps NHS, workers' rights, socialism,

:23:41.:23:44.

everything that is sort of obviously But when it comes to any sort

:23:45.:23:50.

of more nuanced topic, he resorts to the sort of

:23:51.:23:57.

"I'm not that sort of politician". The shame is that in

:23:58.:24:02.

the next few weeks it is absolutely He made a good speech,

:24:03.:24:05.

quite good speech, this week. He needs to be out there all over

:24:06.:24:12.

the country with all his people. It's the kind of thing that would

:24:13.:24:15.

unite his party around him. He's missing the opportunity for his

:24:16.:24:18.

own self-interest to bring the right of his party in, to say we are all

:24:19.:24:21.

in this together, we passionately And it's not clear he

:24:22.:24:25.

wants to unite his party. Is Labour going to try

:24:26.:24:28.

to get people to vote? In lots of areas they are,

:24:29.:24:33.

a lot of people are out there But you need the figureheads,

:24:34.:24:40.

all the main figures out there. It's true they don't get reported

:24:41.:24:43.

nearly as much The fact Hilary Benn,

:24:44.:24:45.

Harriet Harman, these people are out there campaigning,

:24:46.:24:51.

it is not newsworthy compared to the wonderful split in the Tory

:24:52.:24:53.

party, which is fascinating. It is a Tory service,

:24:54.:24:57.

that's for sure. Brexit is a Tory circus

:24:58.:24:59.

from start to finish, It's a Tory circus but it has also

:25:00.:25:01.

become a personalised Tory circus. It's so interesting, people saying,

:25:02.:25:10.

you know, Boris Johnson's father thinks this, there is a schism

:25:11.:25:12.

in the Cameron family. Within the Tory party, Gove

:25:13.:25:15.

wants to be out and Cameron There is this massive

:25:16.:25:22.

extended family feud. And you see Boris's sister on TV,

:25:23.:25:25.

the whole thing keeps going. You make it sound more

:25:26.:25:28.

like a soap opera than a vote. It's the most important

:25:29.:25:31.

vote we will have... Most important soap opera

:25:32.:25:33.

we'll have in our generation. On that sombre note,

:25:34.:25:36.

that's it for Dateline London this week - you can comment on the

:25:37.:25:39.

programme on twitter, @gavinesler. We're back next week

:25:40.:25:42.

at the same time. Yesterday sunshine wasn't spread

:25:43.:25:44.

particularly far and wide, but there will be more sunshine

:25:45.:26:10.

on offer for today. So we saw some big contrasts

:26:11.:26:13.

for today. Beautiful blue skies,

:26:14.:26:15.

a lovely picture Jennifer sent in,

:26:16.:26:18.

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