18/06/2016 Dateline London


18/06/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 18/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

:00:23.:00:24.

The murder of a British Member of Parliament - Jo Cox.

:00:25.:00:28.

Is it time to change the way we think of politicians?

:00:29.:00:30.

And, inevitably, something which might not change how

:00:31.:00:32.

we think of politicians - the EU referendum and Brexit.

:00:33.:00:35.

My guests today are: Marc Roche of Le Point and Le Soir,

:00:36.:00:38.

Brian O'Connell, who is an Irish writer and broadcaster,

:00:39.:00:41.

Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg News and Alex Deane of Conservative Home.

:00:42.:00:47.

They are "only in it for themselves."

:00:48.:00:50.

"Careerists" who have never done a "proper job."

:00:51.:00:52.

From Los Angeles to Berlin, Birmingham to Buenos Aires, you hear

:00:53.:00:55.

the same sort of complaints, often amplified by anonymous

:00:56.:00:57.

The murder of a young woman politician, a mother of two

:00:58.:01:02.

children, reminded us that British politicians are mostly

:01:03.:01:04.

approachable, hard working, and - let's be honest -

:01:05.:01:08.

normal, including in making mistakes.

:01:09.:01:10.

Will Jo Cox's murder perhaps moderate the hatred

:01:11.:01:15.

of politicians, including that in the mainstream media?

:01:16.:01:24.

Do you think that some of this hatred has gone too far? One of the

:01:25.:01:34.

things we have In common is that we treat our politicians like dirt,

:01:35.:01:39.

which is absurd. But the most part, politicians are decent people who

:01:40.:01:42.

have gone into that career because they want to make a positive

:01:43.:01:46.

difference. The next point is that it is very difficult to see how much

:01:47.:01:49.

short of isolating them and making them more different from us, you can

:01:50.:01:54.

protect them completely. Jo Cox was not killed and her surgery or In the

:01:55.:01:58.

House of Commons, or somewhere she might have conventional expectations

:01:59.:02:03.

of protection. She was killed on the street. Unless we are saying our MPs

:02:04.:02:07.

can't walk down the streets without some form of extra protection, or

:02:08.:02:12.

element of being removed from society, you are right that has to

:02:13.:02:15.

be a change In the way we perceive them as talk about them, because

:02:16.:02:19.

they are normal, decent human beings. Very occasionally, a stark

:02:20.:02:23.

event like this happens which should serve to remind us of that. Sarah

:02:24.:02:34.

Palin said his basic or vocation for the job is that he is not a

:02:35.:02:37.

politician. You wouldn't say that about a dentist. Have we got to the

:02:38.:02:45.

stage now where anybody In politics is kind of tainted, has a track

:02:46.:02:53.

record? The anti-politics mood has gotten so highly. I think there is

:02:54.:02:56.

that, but I hope this incident reminds us that the majority of MPs

:02:57.:03:02.

are going into it with good intentions and are not necessarily

:03:03.:03:08.

In it for themselves. They don't dominate the news headlines because

:03:09.:03:11.

they are just going about doing their job. I do think it would be a

:03:12.:03:19.

shame if this resulted In people not wanting to go into politics, people

:03:20.:03:22.

being afraid to enter the public sphere. They are putting themselves

:03:23.:03:29.

Out there every day, and subjecting -- they are subjected to attacks.

:03:30.:03:33.

Particularly female politicians, as we have seen of the past month or

:03:34.:03:38.

so, being attacked endlessly on Twitter. Having very little recourse

:03:39.:03:43.

and very little way to respond. But something I want to touch on. Female

:03:44.:03:48.

politicians In particular gaps the kind of absolutely horrendous abuse.

:03:49.:03:53.

All politicians get some of it, but female politicians seem to get more.

:03:54.:04:00.

Yes, and I think Jo Cox had been receiving e-mails, which we know

:04:01.:04:06.

from the police, before this happens. Not necessarily from the

:04:07.:04:10.

same man who has been arrested and charged. I think it's something that

:04:11.:04:17.

has been pointed Out, but there has been no real response. The police

:04:18.:04:21.

need to take this far more seriously when the male politicians are

:04:22.:04:25.

attacked by trolls on Twitter. A male politician was stabbed. Stephen

:04:26.:04:37.

Timms. Ian Dow was murdered. The Telegraph carried a story on the

:04:38.:04:40.

front page today about several female MPs who had written to the

:04:41.:04:45.

Parliamentary authorities In the last year complaining that security

:04:46.:04:47.

provided for them was inadequate, including one saying that unless

:04:48.:04:51.

security In our constituencies improves, I fear is that the

:04:52.:04:55.

terrible as gods happen. And the big, had effectively rejected that

:04:56.:04:59.

something like this might happen. The flip side is that I think it is

:05:00.:05:05.

a great asset In British democracy that our MPs are accessible, live

:05:06.:05:08.

amongst their constituents, are part their everyday lives. Getting that

:05:09.:05:12.

balance right is something we got to bear In mind. There is a hatred of

:05:13.:05:19.

politicians In Ireland as well. Do you think part of it is that we've

:05:20.:05:23.

all gone three hard times. We don't like the way they didn't predict it.

:05:24.:05:28.

It's all gone wrong understanding rotten in the system. That's true in

:05:29.:05:34.

most democracies. Yes, and in Britain the expenses scandal had a

:05:35.:05:38.

lot to do with this. I think that's really where the current wave has

:05:39.:05:46.

started. The phenomenal Donald Trump is partly because of the failure of

:05:47.:05:51.

establishment politicians to address issues like immigration and

:05:52.:05:55.

globalisation and the effect that has unemployment. So you have a

:05:56.:06:00.

whole blue-collar swathe of voters saying we don't like establishment

:06:01.:06:03.

politicians any more because they don't represent us. Here, it's

:06:04.:06:08.

slightly different. It's very difficult to see how you can protect

:06:09.:06:13.

politicians, and he's in this country. The very being, the

:06:14.:06:16.

essence, of a public workers resented it is that you're meeting

:06:17.:06:22.

the public. As you pointed out, she wasn't actually killed in her

:06:23.:06:27.

surgery or in her office, she was killed on the street. How is this in

:06:28.:06:33.

France? President Hollande was shocked by it. Angela Merkel made

:06:34.:06:37.

some comments. This is something politicians across Europe are very

:06:38.:06:44.

worried about because of the attitude that all politicians are

:06:45.:06:47.

rotten. There is a difference with Britain. In Britain, I find MPs are

:06:48.:07:02.

much more incompetent -- there is no surgery. Very often it is much more

:07:03.:07:08.

the top of the party that aside the business. Britain is a fantastic

:07:09.:07:13.

system will stop if they system where you have a direct contact with

:07:14.:07:23.

your constituents. Ireland remove Racine David Cameron in his

:07:24.:07:26.

constituency in Witney. He told me he had seen eight people might say.

:07:27.:07:31.

I was saying, but he is the Prime Minister. He has other things to do.

:07:32.:07:36.

It's a fantastic system. We have to preserve it. The problem is that you

:07:37.:07:39.

cannot, especially at a time of referendum, when people get

:07:40.:07:47.

extremely -- extreme in their views on both sides. Jo Cox wasn't killed

:07:48.:07:53.

in a vacuum, she was killed because of xenophobic, hateful... We have to

:07:54.:07:58.

wait and see what the trial will produce. The rhetoric does touch on

:07:59.:08:04.

a point. A lot of the rhetoric in this referendum has not been about,

:08:05.:08:11.

this is how the economy might be, it's been about, you are no good, on

:08:12.:08:19.

both sides. You began by setting out that we treat MPs badly and I

:08:20.:08:23.

accepted that premise. What I don't agree with is the attempt to

:08:24.:08:27.

politicise this woman's death. Mind you might this is the act of a

:08:28.:08:30.

madman, the act of someone who must be condensed. It sits outside the

:08:31.:08:36.

conventional little system. The attempt to ascribe blame to the

:08:37.:08:40.

campaigns or order politicians conducting their political affairs

:08:41.:08:44.

in this country to the best of their ability is one of the most

:08:45.:08:46.

pernicious and unpleasant things I have seen... Would you accept,

:08:47.:08:50.

without making that direct reference, that there are political

:08:51.:08:54.

systems, thinking of Northern Ireland where I spent a long time,

:08:55.:08:57.

were people say things which are incendiary and other people take

:08:58.:09:03.

that up as a mission to do stuff. I'm not sure I would. In the end,

:09:04.:09:08.

part of the vital discourse in a democratic society is free speech.

:09:09.:09:11.

Some of it is pointing out what you believe to be truth, and some of

:09:12.:09:14.

that truth is unpalatable to others. In this debate, but the first time

:09:15.:09:20.

in a generation in our country, we have been debating immigration. I

:09:21.:09:23.

think that's good and healthy. I think the unhealthy thing is our

:09:24.:09:26.

unwillingness for the last 20 years to address directly. You treat the

:09:27.:09:38.

problem, the problem of immigration. It was xenophobic, it was nasty. It

:09:39.:09:44.

made a whole group of people, including myself, it made us wonder

:09:45.:09:51.

what is our future in this country? That was big climate created where

:09:52.:09:55.

some not, and I'm not saying there is any link between what happens and

:09:56.:10:01.

the campaign, some not will get so worked up against immigrants that he

:10:02.:10:09.

will take a target. What are people supposed to do? This is a campaign

:10:10.:10:12.

about a referendum were people have been accused of being unfair. We may

:10:13.:10:18.

not have another chance to vote. If you believe that, what should you

:10:19.:10:26.

do? There's only one person saying you lot and divisive in that way.

:10:27.:10:33.

Nigel Farage came up with this poster which has been criticised.

:10:34.:10:42.

Breaking point, it says. Was that factions? I can't imagine that he

:10:43.:10:45.

would have gone ahead and done that without Vote Leave knowing about it.

:10:46.:10:55.

He is a member of Ukip. To be clear, I wouldn't distance myself from that

:10:56.:10:59.

poster. No, I wouldn't. That's where we come across the difference

:11:00.:11:03.

between those who coalesce around the league perspective and say, I

:11:04.:11:05.

dismissed the concerns of the everyday members of the public, and

:11:06.:11:09.

those who are willing to say I think this has gone too far. This is a

:11:10.:11:15.

photograph something that actually happened. That was not happening on

:11:16.:11:20.

the shores of Britain. That was a misrepresentation. I don't did

:11:21.:11:23.

anyone is suggesting it was happening on the shores of Britain.

:11:24.:11:28.

As soon as say, that's now, you are racist for having those views and

:11:29.:11:32.

therefore I win, I think that's a pernicious aspect of what is

:11:33.:11:35.

happening, not just in this debate but in the last 20 or 30 years. One

:11:36.:11:40.

of the issues from what Alex says is true, part of the reason that leaves

:11:41.:11:44.

are now ahead in the polls is that the remaining sides have not been

:11:45.:11:50.

able to say, yes, you have a legitimate concern about

:11:51.:11:54.

immigration. All the people who are going to Vote Leave, have legitimate

:11:55.:12:00.

concerns about immigration, however, leaving the EU will not solve those.

:12:01.:12:05.

What the remains I'd have done is said we will talk about the economy

:12:06.:12:11.

and the Leeds side have banged the immigration issue the whole time.

:12:12.:12:15.

Because there is no acceptance by remainder there is a legitimate

:12:16.:12:18.

concern about immigration In this country, as they should be able to

:12:19.:12:26.

say that it will probably make it worse. You have the single market,

:12:27.:12:37.

you take advantage of it. You cannot put into question the free movement.

:12:38.:12:44.

What the Remain cap has failed to point Out is how the economy now,

:12:45.:12:49.

just this week we had figures showing 5% unemployment, the lowest

:12:50.:12:55.

rate In 11 years. There are vast sectors of the economy that are

:12:56.:12:59.

incredibly dependent on EU migrant labour. Without that flow of labour,

:13:00.:13:05.

we will be In deep trouble. Know one around this table relies on public

:13:06.:13:08.

services the way people In the United Kingdom do. It's very easy

:13:09.:13:12.

for us to dismiss those concerns. I don't know how often you use the NHS

:13:13.:13:16.

or have received benefits, or your children are In state schools, or

:13:17.:13:21.

under pressure from the increased population. The glib dismissal of

:13:22.:13:24.

any concern along those lines, not just by you but by the broad

:13:25.:13:29.

political media and mainstream, is one of the big flaws. It isn't In an

:13:30.:13:41.

even way. The people who are most dependent on the state, who have the

:13:42.:13:44.

largest concerns about immigration, I dismissed the most. The British

:13:45.:13:51.

government should investigate the NHS that might invest In the NHS.

:13:52.:13:54.

It's not the fault of these people who work and have a right. And the

:13:55.:14:02.

like of investment may not be a matter of priority In the end.

:14:03.:14:06.

There's only so much to go round. It is legitimate to point Out that

:14:07.:14:09.

there is a strain on the resources In this country. The point I'm

:14:10.:14:13.

making is that the extent to which Remain has dismissed those concerns

:14:14.:14:19.

as racist, they lose the majority. They're just not accepting that it

:14:20.:14:25.

is a legitimate concern. But it's not going to solve the questions you

:14:26.:14:33.

raise about immigration. We were stuck -- discussing the state of the

:14:34.:14:37.

two campaigns. My point was that the extent to which Remain relies on

:14:38.:14:45.

that dismissal... There's a couple of points there that were made about

:14:46.:14:49.

mainstream media, and having made quite a lot on Twitter and elsewhere

:14:50.:14:52.

this week. One is that the mainstream media itself demonises

:14:53.:14:56.

politicians, but we are always looking In general for the scandal,

:14:57.:15:03.

the occasional politician taking too much on expenses and so on. But

:15:04.:15:08.

that's a great thing about Britain. You have these fantastic -- this

:15:09.:15:13.

fantastic press and that's why it's a less corrupt country than the

:15:14.:15:19.

continent, so you can't have it all. You can't have a fantastic press,

:15:20.:15:25.

even with these adulation and all that is, but on the holder is less

:15:26.:15:29.

corruption and bounce an example for the continents. I think you would

:15:30.:15:36.

agree that there is a degree of subservience In France, is that

:15:37.:15:46.

right, to the press? Absolutely not. To go back to your point about the

:15:47.:15:52.

elites, many British newspapers are run by extremely rich people who are

:15:53.:15:58.

all In favour of Brexit will stop they have given endless publicity to

:15:59.:16:02.

the migration question. Murdoch has the Sun. The Times has Remain. Your

:16:03.:16:10.

point is that immigration has been ignored by elites. I dumping it has

:16:11.:16:13.

been ignored by the media elite, if there is such a thing. He would say

:16:14.:16:20.

that contributed to a climate of things. It is pressing the concerns

:16:21.:16:24.

of readers, X expressing something that the genuine story. What has

:16:25.:16:29.

been done on the left side -- left-hand side of politics, the

:16:30.:16:34.

Guardian and so forth, people have sought to dismiss those concerns as

:16:35.:16:38.

being the concerns of those who judge others on race rather than

:16:39.:16:44.

making a simple evaluation that this country has enough people ready. I

:16:45.:16:49.

think you are distorting the contribution of EU migrants In this

:16:50.:16:55.

country. I think they contribute more than they take Out of the

:16:56.:16:59.

system. That's not a robot or what the point I was making. Can we move

:17:00.:17:04.

on to this question of experts and elites which has been underlying

:17:05.:17:11.

everything. Can you explain why so many people, who are quoted experts,

:17:12.:17:16.

economists, leading economists and others, scientists, who are In the

:17:17.:17:23.

Remain camp, are ignored by many British people, when clearly, the

:17:24.:17:26.

opinion polls suggest, are going to vote for Brexit? Why do we not trust

:17:27.:17:32.

the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who says, I'm running the economy and I

:17:33.:17:36.

tell you it's going to be even more austere TiVo to get Out? It is part

:17:37.:17:42.

of this nasty anti-elites, and the experts, anti-people, that the

:17:43.:17:51.

pro-Brexit camp is taking. It comes with very sensible argument and

:17:52.:17:56.

people don't listen to it. But they will listen In case Britain leaves

:17:57.:18:04.

and disaster will strike. On the other hand, it is also about

:18:05.:18:09.

economics. It's not just about saying, you are elite and therefore

:18:10.:18:12.

we don't listen. It's about saying, you have been consistently wrong.

:18:13.:18:18.

Wrong about the pounds failing. It's the same circle of experts. People

:18:19.:18:24.

are judging them on their performance. Is a fallacy to say all

:18:25.:18:28.

economists were supportive of the euro. After euro projects,

:18:29.:18:42.

generally. That is a fallacy. I just think that they're not listening to

:18:43.:18:49.

economists is not listening to business leaders who, the vast

:18:50.:18:52.

majority of big employers In this country who have come Out In favour

:18:53.:18:56.

of Remain, saying it could impact our ability to do business. Staying

:18:57.:19:04.

In the EU is good for business. You have the leader of the SNP, the

:19:05.:19:07.

leader of the Conservative Party, the leader of every major party,

:19:08.:19:16.

with exception of Ukip, but are they all wrong? Yes. Add to this

:19:17.:19:23.

referendum is conducted, we will have a job of work to put the

:19:24.:19:29.

Conservative Party back again. I don't get a problem because, In the

:19:30.:19:32.

end, the Conservative Party knows what it's true enemy is, the Labour

:19:33.:19:36.

Party. The Labour Party knows what it's true enemy is added is also the

:19:37.:19:40.

Labour Party. They're busy tearing themselves apart. We have a nice

:19:41.:19:46.

time when the Tories can... I certainly think George Osborne

:19:47.:19:49.

didn't do himself with the Remain side or the Conservative Party any

:19:50.:19:56.

favours when he threatens a ?30 billion post Brexit budgets. He made

:19:57.:20:01.

himself look very silly. There will be a bill. This is a man who

:20:02.:20:08.

admitted Cisco targets and he's not going to do it all In one year. We

:20:09.:20:16.

go back to this speech. If you create a climate of fear, the Labour

:20:17.:20:22.

Party is not the enemy of the Tories, it is the adversary. That

:20:23.:20:27.

way will -- we live In such a nasty environment. The other side are just

:20:28.:20:34.

the opposition. In terms of this wider question, Trump, Golden Dawn,

:20:35.:20:44.

Sarah 's, Ukip, breaking up politics as usual. That will continue and

:20:45.:20:49.

that's perhaps why has guards, has had great difficulties forming a

:20:50.:20:51.

governance. Sinn Fein have done very well. Outside parties. People

:20:52.:20:57.

promised transformation rather than managerial politics. They are doing

:20:58.:21:05.

very well across Europe. Part of it is that practically every country

:21:06.:21:08.

you mention that there is In the single currency. Part of it has come

:21:09.:21:14.

through the crisis, the fiscal crisis, that has hit the euro.

:21:15.:21:18.

There's no doubt about that. I think it is still also part of this

:21:19.:21:22.

antiestablishment view of politics that we have seen before. User

:21:23.:21:28.

people, if you look to Spain, the far less, is not whether it is left

:21:29.:21:37.

or right, it could be -- it is anti-politics. That's the thing, it

:21:38.:21:41.

is antiestablishment politics. It's not just In theory, it's based on

:21:42.:21:47.

the reality In people's lives. 50% youth unemployment In Greece. They

:21:48.:21:50.

have sacrificed a generation on the altar of the EU. I should've got Out

:21:51.:21:54.

but they wouldn't have been allowed to. As a political project not being

:21:55.:22:02.

judged on its economics. I think the euro has survived. It has survived.

:22:03.:22:08.

How do you explain that, In your country, you have all this hatred

:22:09.:22:13.

and all this xenophobia? Let's go back to Britain. While unemployed is

:22:14.:22:20.

low, while the economy is doing fantastically well, why did you have

:22:21.:22:25.

all that, because politicians on the right... You were demonstrating the

:22:26.:22:31.

inability to understand that it is not racist or about hatred, is a

:22:32.:22:39.

simple evaluation... I am not on the receiving end. People are racist to

:22:40.:22:48.

you In this country? Yes, they are. Many people ask themselves, will

:22:49.:22:53.

they Leave? You're Irish, you can vote. I think the reason why you

:22:54.:23:03.

have people like Trump, and I put this support for Brexit In the same

:23:04.:23:09.

camp, it's not about, it's being presented In the context of all of

:23:10.:23:13.

our problems are due to immigration, as opposed to looking at the

:23:14.:23:17.

economic forces are behind this. You have working-class voters who have

:23:18.:23:24.

genuine complaints, but wages declined, you have a growing

:23:25.:23:28.

disparity between rich and poor. There is growing resentment as a

:23:29.:23:32.

result of that. That's an interesting point, because the

:23:33.:23:35.

economy, In the aggregate, if you look at the figures, looks very

:23:36.:23:39.

healthy. But the economy for individual citizens is not very

:23:40.:23:42.

healthy. That's part of the point I have been seeking to make. That's

:23:43.:23:46.

not the fault of migrants or immigration. Nobody is saying

:23:47.:23:51.

immigration In this country is going to stop, it is the ability to choose

:23:52.:23:54.

it and control it. The attempt to judge people based on race has been

:23:55.:24:04.

made by you. Now! The Brexit people are racist. I think the Brexit

:24:05.:24:12.

people have done a racist campaign. Some people might think that Britain

:24:13.:24:16.

leading the EU, changing that treaty arrangement with our neighbours,

:24:17.:24:19.

maybe be a decision makes on national interest rather than race.

:24:20.:24:23.

I don't think it's race. I think it's xenophobia. It is... We have a

:24:24.:24:32.

minute or two left. I think you have to look... Britain is slightly

:24:33.:24:36.

different from other countries. Southern European countries like

:24:37.:24:39.

Greece and Spain and Portugal, if you look at why they joined the

:24:40.:24:43.

European Union, the common market, the EC, whatever it was, it was to

:24:44.:24:49.

get away from these sort of dictatorship, for democracy. If you

:24:50.:24:51.

look at Eastern Europe, it was because they didn't want any more

:24:52.:24:55.

awards. If you look at France and Germany, it's because that's where

:24:56.:24:59.

the Second World War was forced Out, on their territory. What Britain

:25:00.:25:09.

joins was an economic trading alliance, which is turned into a

:25:10.:25:13.

political alliance. I understand that. That's why Euroscepticism is

:25:14.:25:17.

particularly English. Ireland joined on the same day as Britain. Ireland

:25:18.:25:22.

joined for a completely different reasons. If you want to talk about

:25:23.:25:32.

sovereignty, exchange rates, interest rates were set for the

:25:33.:25:37.

punt, the old Irish currency, by the bank of inward about time. For us,

:25:38.:25:40.

it was actually with -- regaining sovereignty. I don't think anyone In

:25:41.:25:46.

Ireland would argue that they have a of June. Are going to have to Leave

:25:47.:25:48.

it there. You can comment on the programme

:25:49.:25:54.

on Twitter - @gavinesler - We're back next week

:25:55.:25:57.

at the same time. Hello. We will all get at least one

:25:58.:26:25.

decent day Out of the weekend. Some areas will manage to stay dry right

:26:26.:26:30.

the way through. The emphasis is definitely on dry weather tree

:26:31.:26:32.

today. A bit of sunshine around.

:26:33.:26:34.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS