Browse content similar to 16/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Dateline London. | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
In today's programme: the attempted coup in Turkey, | :00:24. | :00:25. | |
the horrors in France and the enormous political | :00:26. | :00:27. | |
My guests today are Guney Yildez, Turkish journalist, | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Benedicte Paviot of France 24, Suzanne Lynch of the Irish Times and | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
What we know. Do you think the people of Turkey were really shocked | :00:37. | :00:54. | |
and surprised when they thought the Army was out? This is a big shock. I | :00:55. | :01:01. | |
was speaking to a senior party member yesterday in the heat of the | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
incident, the governing party, and he was telling me they were | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
expecting it. The new that some people in the mill table plotting | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
for a coup. They are so well organised. They weren't sure how it | :01:16. | :01:26. | |
would turn out. The president of the blame on a movement, Turkish | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
Islamist -based. A lot of followers in Turkish security. I book two is | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
books person as well and they the distant themselves but when asked if | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
they would condemn this coup, didn't want to do that. This was an | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
unsuccessful coup organised by mid two senior level soldiers, a naval | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
force and the first Army division, it is not a small group of soldiers | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
acting on this. It was very well planned an e-mail to a level because | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
the coup was conditionally took strongholds of Turkish intelligent | :02:13. | :02:24. | |
-- intelligence. Also, special police forces which have grown under | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
the present and become a rival to the Army. On an administrative | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
level, it didn't sound like it was well organised. They didn't have any | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
access to the media. Mainstream media. The statement they read out | :02:39. | :02:46. | |
on state TV wasn't clear. What the motivation was over the state was | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
unclear. It allowed Government to get ahead of them very quickly in a | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
few hours. Wright that has happened in the past in the last 50 years or | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
so. They welcomed this at the time because they thought it would bring | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
stability or the military could bring stability. This is a | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
completely different poetical situation. Turkey had for different | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
coups in the past. The last one in 1997 was a soft coup but in all | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
these cases it was the military which didn't have any arrivals like | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
intelligent or police force, it was acting against weak civilian | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
Government, any turbulent situation and people welcomed it but this time | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
we have a strong Government has control over a significant part of | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
the security establishment, it is not just one coup, a three coup | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
against the army, police and strong civilian Government. This is a | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
country that has aspirations to join Europe, it has changed, people can | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
be executed in Turkey in order to do so and it is right on the border. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
This comes as a shock? The whole geopolitical context of this is | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
hugely significant. This is very much the case. It is a member of | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Nato and this has huge ramifications in terms of what happens now between | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
Turkey and Greece. It is a US ally bobbled that relationship has come | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
under pressure. Most importantly for Europe, the timing is interesting. | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
We have seen an unprecedented engagement with the EU by Turkey to | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
assess the migrant crisis. Many people accused the EU for a cynical | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
move offering Turkey promises of further these and access to the EU | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
in exchange for helping with the migrant crisis led by Anglo-American | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
who was driving this. Anglo-American's gamble has paid off | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
as the number of migrants coming through from Turkey to Greece has | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
fallen back now ironically what may happen is that as the reaction plays | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
later in the president in the next few weeks, we may see a hardening of | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
response from Turkey, a clamp-down on dissent, political dialogue and | :05:08. | :05:14. | |
that will give the EU a pretext for not giving these are true -- Visa | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
free travel to Europe. That is part of the point. Turkey is a democracy | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
in that has elections but minority views are not taken into account. In | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
the way that the EU would like. Thank goodness for the European | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
Union in the sense that at least there is some leveraged their given | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
that Turkey wants to join. I think that's an important part of the | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
dynamic even though we are talking decades away apparently. That will | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
be an important lever and the UK out of the European Union will have no | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
power. It is a really interesting example of what happens when or if | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
you leave the European Union because they will be key players in trying | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
to create a more stable Turkey. From what you were saying earlier, even | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
though the coup seems to have been put down quite quickly by the | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
Government, it is bound to generate even greater instability in Turkey | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
and -- in an already unstable situation. We are coming on the fans | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
any second but bomb attacks at airports and bomb attacks against | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
the economic disruption caused by terrorism and know this. We don't | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
want an unstable Turkey for any part of the world, for the Middle East or | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
Asia or for Europe. We don't and that is why it is very interesting | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
to see how the Turkish president will do. Will he become more | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
authoritarian were the clamp-down on dissent? I think the temptation or | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
the decision will probably be one that will be very quickly made. What | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
is slightly strange to me is the fact that there were these rumours | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
apparently not known by us but he might be Turkish president, was | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
fearing this and has worst fears have come true. It is interesting | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
that he had to be an face time. If the Internet, we see, if you are on | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
the stem, that is the kiss of death. You cannot get to a studio. The | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
first thing you do in broadcasting, you go to those two days and blow up | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
the transmitters. That's how you organise a coup. That is how you | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
take over. There were two planes shot down, helicopters. As we go on | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
error, there are eight people claiming asylum in Greece and how | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
Greece handled that will be very important as well. What you were | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
boasting about the EU is key and the fact that the UK is going to be | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
negotiating its divorce from that, lessons its voice in that possible | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
solution. In France, after the Euro 2016 | :07:55. | :07:55. | |
football passed off successful and without any serious incidents, | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
there was considerable relief and the prospect of some | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
kind of relaxation of That lasted until Bastille Day | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
and the use of a lorry Where is France and Europe | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
and the rest of the world in dealing with those from Nice | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
to Orlando who have murder on their minds and claim some kind | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
of political motive? The reason I introduced Orlando | :08:13. | :08:24. | |
there is from what we know of the perpetrator, he was a bit of a loser | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
in society, on the margins and is now being claimed by Islamic State | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
is that he was some kind of hero to do the kind of vastly thing that he | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
did. This is what intelligence services around the world and not | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
just in France are in the UK, this is a growing phenomenon and one that | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
is impossible in an open democracy to prevent no matter how much money, | :08:46. | :08:53. | |
solutions are investigations report that she do and there is a report | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
finds that you might not very long ago that was recommending that | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
France actually do what the US did when they realise the FBI wasn't | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
talking enough to the CIA after the 911, that there had been warning | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
signals and that didn't take up on them so that France needs to | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
actually be collaborating and pooling its information, there is | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
too much competition between the various parts of the intelligence | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
services. Having said that, France, Britain, America, it Israelis and | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
amongst the best in the intelligence of it is but you cannot do it in an | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
open democracy or zero would you want to put the reasons of civilian | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
liberties, the bounce me to strike, this was a soft target. The sea | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
front of Meath was turned into a crime scene, a two kilometre crime | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
scene, 84 dead, 200 injured among them are children. It is horrific | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
and our society, unlike the 13th of November attacks, they needed | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
rejects texts. That needed real planning outside and inside France | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
whether it was from Belgium or forever it was from, what is not | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
needed from a man who rented a lorry two or three days before, apparently | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
a womaniser, was not a practising Muslim, he is going to be reclaimed | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
by, as we have just witnessed, as IIS or Islamic State. It is inspired | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
by them. It is all too familiar. The Orlando attack, Iman on the margins | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
of society, the Brussels perpetrators as well. We have seen a | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
lot of this and that makes it even more difficult for the intelligence | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
services. What is worrying about this development is that as I says | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
is losing ground in the Middle East, it may increase its targets and the | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
west. It is even more worrying that this person seems to have had no | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
direct links with organised terrorism because it showing the | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
influence that Islamic State particularly over social media has | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
the debate of the disenfranchised who maybe don't have formal with | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
Islamic State but are using that as a justification or an ideology that | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
they can cling to and justify their own acts. What is different about | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
this attack from the November attacks in Paris and the attacks in | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
Brussels is that it's not part of this European wide network. A | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
Belgian French, very sophisticated terrorist network was behind this to | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
attacks and then presidents were asked about how can terrorists and | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
arms move freely between countries across do opinion and best debate | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
will no doubt come up again. In terms of this specific incident, it | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
seems it's more organised with that incident and that will give EU | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
policymakers a breeding space in terms of this event. The thought | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
that everybody in Britain has about this is that it could happen in here | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
or Germany. Of course. It has happened here on a smaller scale. I | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
am always asking senior officials at the Home Office, how come it is | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
always France and not hear? There is one issue which is, touch wood, of | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
some benefit to the UK which is that it is much harder to get the weapons | :12:10. | :12:15. | |
over here. They are freely travelling around the rest of the | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
EU. That is something has to be addressed but what cannot be | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
addressed, as you were saying, is some individual loan are doing this | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
and then I S claiming in effect credit. On that issue about Britain, | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
it is interesting in the debate about Britain having decided to | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
leave the EU, to reasoning is on record back in April saying that she | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
believes British security will be better served by staying in the EU, | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
she listed a number of their things, the passenger name records, that you | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
are appalled. Ironically, Britain was already out of the bits it | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
didn't want, it had a very good arrangement. It'll be interesting to | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
see how the new PM responds to this when there will be inevitable claims | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
that this may show you lack security in Europe when the very opposite is | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
the case. If that hadn't been for true, I would be asking you about | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
Turkey's experience of terrorism because that is also destabilising | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
factor in Turkish society. In Ankara and Istanbul and other places, isn't | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
it? What unifies France and Turkey is that both countries are very | :13:30. | :13:39. | |
vocal against the Assad regime. France was never a supporter of the | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
Assad regime. The word very vocal against the Assad regime and its | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
ironic that the target is more about Isis than any other country. The | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
only reason I can think of is that France has more in the Muslim | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
population than any other European country and because of the colonial | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
legacy both in Syria and also in northern Africa, you have a easily | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
radicalised or could be radicalised Muslim population. Isis thinks they | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
can create an anti-Islamic Daschle -- backlash in friends as I take | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
easier than other countries. That is a worry that if I write in France, | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
politics aside, there are some rumblings that people fear that far | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
right groups can take something of the retaliation against people they | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
don't like. There might be individual acts but the point is the | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
elephant in the room is the French presidential elections next May and | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
certainly we already know we have known for over 18 months if the | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
polls are correct, they are dangerously accurate, Marriott Le | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
Pen will get through the second round of the presidential election | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
unlike her father. We know it is coming down the track. What we | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
already witnessing unlike the aftermath and the fallout from the | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
13th November Paris attacks, is the fact that there is not a political | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
unity, it was supposed to end of the 26th of July, the afternoon on the | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
14th of July Bastille Day, the French president and his traditional | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
address or in the nation, he said it is going to stop, we cannot continue | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
all the time, it's been renewed three times and the reason it was | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
renewed up until now is the one month Euro 2016 which passed off | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
successfully. No terror attacks. Then, if you hours later, this | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
attack. The problem is now that there is a law helping to get the | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
Government tools to be able to carry out raids quite easily to clamp | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
down, to dismantle jihadists groups. The problem is, the civil liberties | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
and how they blood citation also I think very much has begun to happen | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
from the opposition are starting to really make some murmurings about | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
what needs to be done and criticising the French Government | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
and the French authorities. This is quite different to the aftermath of | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
the first -- 13 of November and the presidential election coming up, | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
Europe will be at the heart of it and Marion Le Pen has said that. She | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
will be appealing and she will have a lot of residents with a growing | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
number of people who feel insecure. France is at war with the so-called | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
Islamic State, one with terrorism and it is here to stay. It is part | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
of everyday life by Andy reality. Britain has a new prime minister | :16:35. | :16:36. | |
and a reshaped government Plus, we also have Boris Johnson | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
as our new Foreign Secretary, What do we make of the shape | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
of the new British government What do you make the way to reason | :16:43. | :16:55. | |
me, we should remind people, has got a majority of 12 which is very slim. | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
That is the context of everything. Brexit will dominate the life of | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
this new Government and a new Government. We didn't have a general | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
election last week. It was a brutal cabinet reshuffle which she had | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
clearly planned for some time because she carried out with great | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
ruthlessness at speed. You are right, she will have to navigate the | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
nightmarish past towards a Brexit and it's all complexity with a tiny | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
majority being watched on an hourly basis by some of the Eurosceptic MPs | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
who are currently euphoric about the way she has reshuffled her Cabinet | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
and made clear that Brexit is Brexit. Any sign of distancing from | :17:41. | :17:50. | |
that will cause mayhem. It is a really difficult position. She will | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
have a honeymoon to die for over the summer. She hasn't got any effective | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
political opposition at the moment. Bieber having another leadership | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
contest. The wider context of deciding what form Brexit takes, | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
getting it through the European Union, when the trigger article 51 | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
whole process begins, will be fraught with difficulty. And the way | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
she structured her Government, there are in effect, at least four Cabinet | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
ministers heavily involved in this, David Davis in charge of Brexit, | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
Liam Fox in charge of negotiating trade, the Treasury inevitably in | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
the form of the Chancellor and Theresa May herself who will take | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
the lead. Managing those individuals all with different views so far, I | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
haven't mentioned Boris Johnson... Andrea led some doing food. All with | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
slightly different views as to what Brexit should take, it's going to | :18:49. | :18:57. | |
make John major in the mid-90s that the guilty party. It was quite | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
interesting this week watching the unfolding drama in Westminster. | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
While the mood seemed to be quite a bit of fun and final Prime | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
Minister's Questions, the mood in Russell 's was one of sober realism | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
that this is no laughing matter. -- Brussels. The appointment of Theresa | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
May has made Brexit a reality. I think a lot of people were quite | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
amused by the whole tone of things and the sense that perhaps these | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
appointments were motivated by domestic, political and partied | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
little concerns rather than what is best for the country. It is apt to | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
be the most challenging act of diplomacy over the last 50 years. By | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
appointing up Boris Johnson, a divisive figure, that is fine, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
people do respect to some extent but what is the wisdom of putting | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
somebody in who has already insulted a number of world leaders when you | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
are trying to get the best deal from Britain for the EU? That is an | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
interesting calculation. What do you make of it? He was booed at the | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
French Embassy this week. At Bastille Day, yes, I witnessed it. | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
It was Brits who were doing it, not the French. I would say it was | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
roughly 15% of the guests there. Do you think it is a problem, | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
particularly in the short-term? Perhaps any few months' time, you | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
can see the strategy who is an intelligent man and will be very | :20:35. | :20:36. | |
sober in the office and people will look at his past comments in a | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
different light? From the domestic political side, for a moment, it is | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
a huge opportunity for Boris, borrowers who was going to be a | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
candidate for the top job of Tory leader, Boris who was going to be | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
Prime Minister and that fell completely by the wayside and this | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
seems to be a completely natural phenomenon in which is politics, | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
when you are the favourite you don't get it. The fact is, he is going to | :21:03. | :21:11. | |
be good sized everywhere he goes, here and abroad. He will have to | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
tackle this all the time. He is very intelligent but the Beazer is going | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
to want to really make sure she tries to control his message. He | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
wrote a juvenile pawn which won a prize which said things about the | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
Turkish president. -- poem. Does that matter? The Turkish President's | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
office was asked about this and what they need of the appointment of | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
Boris Johnson and the reply today saying the relationship with the UK | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
goes beyond personalities and he used his first ever opportunity to | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
mend relations with Turkey very quickly in the coup attempt. He came | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
out talking and step. As journalists, we should be looking | :21:59. | :22:06. | |
for it what he needs. It is one thing, civil servants and | :22:07. | :22:07. | |
presidential officer say about their foreign policy, we might imagine a | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
scene for the Turkish president was openly challenging... Years quite a | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
strong character as well. We are almost running out of time. One way | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
of looking at what Theresa May is doing, she may come to the | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
conclusion that we are a very weak and divided opposition, she needs an | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
electoral mandate and she should go to the country and that would give | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
her more MPs and ease her problems. She might do. There will be a lot of | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
speculation over the summer. She has gone on the record to say that she | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
doesn't think an early election is necessary. That will not kill off | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
the speculation as Gordon Brown discovered in 2007. When you are on | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
a honeymoon. With a very small majority. Over the summer, she has | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
just one chance in early November, after that, it becomes impossible in | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
the winter and the rest of it. She will have to make a decision. She | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
might just emphatically rule it out and kill all speculation that there | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
must be a bit of her, she is quite cautious in spite of that ruthless | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
reef travel, there must be a bit of attempted to say that with all that | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
legislation she has to get through, to have a majority of 180 beats a | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
majority of 12. It is going to lurk in the background. Not likely that | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
possible. She's cautious until she isn't and then she is quite bold. | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
She has been very bold in the past three days. I have met some of the | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
victims of the last 40 errors and some of those who survived and the | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
all walking around any complete shock days. There are questions | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
about legitimacy that are already being asked despite the weakness and | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
the crisis amongst the Labour opposition because we have this PM | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
with a completely, no general election and a completely different | :23:58. | :23:59. | |
top Government. There are questions being asked. | :24:00. | :24:01. | |
That's it for Dateline London for this week. | :24:02. | :24:03. | |
You can comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler and also | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
We're back next week at the same time. | :24:07. | :24:17. |