23/07/2016 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

The meeting between Angela Merkel and Theresa May

And Donald Trump stakes his claim to the presidency

My guests today are Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt, Maria Margaronis

of The Nation, Janet Daley of the Sunday Telegraph

and John Fisher Burns of the New York Times.

We begin with the terror attack in Munich.

Coming after attacks in Paris, Brussels, Orlando, Istanbul,

Nice and other places, this is clearly

But I used the word terror attack because it strikes terror, except

the police say there is no political motive they can find. I agree that

in terminology terror is correct, it is a horrific incident to happen for

a lone gunman to shoot and kill and the repercussions, we know the facts

are beginning to emerge, or that people feel unsafe in modern

society. This vulnerability has been brought home to us again and

whatever the motive is an ramification, there is a sense that

we are not masters of our own security, we are threatened beyond

belief and nobody knows what may happen next. I hope the German

people will not yield to this sense of helplessness and they retrieve

some normality instead of becoming pessimistic about the future. That

is hard to do, the powers that be are constantly under attack for not

being in charge of governing society, so the individual has to

recover enough sense of himself and his pride to carry on normal

business. It is a huge challenge and I don't know how we will come out of

it. One definition of terrorism is a violent act of theatre to scare lots

of people by a single outcome so although police in Munich seem to

have ruled out any political relationship with Islamic State, in

that sense it seems like it does terrorise. It is terrifying. There

are so many things happening and not just the ones you listed but in

Baghdad, Lebanon, all over the world which are terrifying. It is

important to make distinctions between politically motivated

attacks and what are known as lone Wills and also to see there is

something going on in our political culture which means someone deeply

unhappy and unstable is more likely to pick up this post factual

political discourse where blame is strewn around randomly, Trump can

blame Hillary Clinton for every war that has happened in the Middle East

in the last 15 years and connect those things, so make distinctions

but also see what is happening in culture. I think that is all true

but there is a danger of attributing a systematic nature to axe which are

in fact around, they are to do with individual mental instability,

individual misanthropic, there has always been a fixed number of

especially young men who are deranged in society, the

19th-century had an anarchist movement which was as terrifying on

its own skill, we had Baader-Meinhof in Germany, the danger is thinking

that somehow there is an ideological explanation which can be cracked,

which the security services can solve. The level of violence in this

society at the moment, the individual incidents which make the

news are terrifying in the technical sense of the word but low-level

violence in our society in advanced countries is remarkably low in terms

of previous generations. There was a time in the 19th-century when no

woman would have walked the streets of London alone, when no man would

have walked through Hyde Park alone, every day mugging, personal

violence, disorder, the lack of police protection was just a fact of

life. That makes it more shocking. It does but it doesn't mean

something has happened to culture, the sort of people who worried doing

this I think Ari fixed quotient, there is an element of easily

deranged young men and I think it has a lot to do with popular

culture, apparently this town man was addict into computer games, as

was one of the Brussels perpetrators, and remarkably even

those who were attributing their actions to Islam often turn out to

be very recent converts to Islam, often they weren't even observant

Muslims. The guy who committed the attack in Nice was eating pork and

drinking alcohol 24 hours before the attack. You don't want to attribute

a false rationality to something that is a sickly insane. We also had

talked about Islamic State and Al-Qaeda, the Columbine massacre,

the kind of phenomenon judgment is talking about is all too common

stock I agreed that it doesn't excuse us from the response of

unlucky of finding as many as there may be solutions and correct those,

an obvious one, for example, we can thank the Lord we have the strongest

gun laws in this country. It is to make sure everything possible is

done to stop the distribution of deadly weapons. I dare say something

can be done about the proliferation of violence in computer games and on

TV. To me, I don't want to be the victor Meldrew of the peace but it's

shocking to see the amount of violence that is on those computer

games, as glimpsed over the shoulder of children in chopping vases and on

TV. While these attacks may be random and many of the so-called

Islamists are people who were reaching for extremist Islam as an

excuse for what has its origins in a sort of arrangement, there are still

things we should do. I don't think the violence there was in London in

the late 19th century just flew over of its own accord. It would have had

a lot to do with the construction of a Robert Alyce force. I think many

people in Germany will wonder how an 18-year-old kid gets hold of a clock

and more than 300 rounds of ammunition. We have a culture in

Germany that will not allow such possession of guns but there is also

a black market and secret ways, seven neighbouring countries, and

people of an equally deranged mind, there will be ways by which you can

provide yourself with weapons, and no amount of strict laws will

completely stamp out the availability of these. Borders are

something else we could do something about. Let's move on to that topic

in a slightly more cheerful manner. The most powerful leader

in the most powerful country in the European Union met

and listened to the newcomer, Britain's Prime Minister

Theresa May, this week. But when Angela Merkel expresses

a degree of sympathy for the woman trying to negotiate a British exit

from the European Union, It was a very pleasant meeting and

good to see two women leaders together, but... I think kind words

to mean something because Germany is anxious to reach some sort of

accommodation. I think the question of borders is absolutely central to

this. Is the Schengen agreement going to survive the security

questions and Britain's access to the single market? Something has

gone seriously wrong with the European projects both in terms of

the euro and what it is doing to Mediterranean countries and poor

countries, and the border arrangements which are causing

resentment in eastern Europe, this is the moment for serious reform and

I think possibly Angela Merkel recognises that in a way that

President Hollande possibly doesn't and that is going to be the real

crisis. Brexit will be a sideshow because it will trigger the real

disagreement between Germany and France. The reason I phrased that

like I did is because I remember Angela Merkel being very nice to

Alexis Tsipras and maybe you could remind us how that turned out.

Increased they could have a referendum and then ignore it, it's

another story, but Greece is now absolutely powerless and she knew in

the end she could be nice and then... But do you take Janet's

point, because a lot of people in the EU, Mrs Merkel knows there are

problems in the EU that she would like to a partner to solve and maybe

that is not possible. She would like Britain as a partner but other

European leaders are happy to see the back of Britain. Other people

are saying they keep trying to change things and without them they

can get on with it. Britain isn't in Schengen said the question of

European borders inside continental Europe doesn't involve Britain

directly. But Janet's words are prepared in the light of the German

election next year. She has to be careful how to address the unease in

her own country about Mike Gration, asylum seekers, the days of

uncontrolled migration are coming to an end. But was there really

uncontrolled migration in Germany? There was to what extent but we are

having to deal with it now. We remember in Munich train station,

the huge numbers. That was when Angela Merkel said we would take as

many Syrian refugees as camp and had to backtrack. The uncontrolled bit

comes in that once you set foot on the grant of an EU country you are

effectively invisible and that is the problem. You can travel anywhere

in Schengen. One of the powerful reasons why the reason may seems to

have his side she would trigger Article 50 until next year, then

there were two years beyond that which carries her until the 2020

election. She realises that the number unfolding NBC U -- the

dynamic in the EU, widespread discontent with free movement and

the terms of negotiation of our exit if it happens maybe a lot different

to years from now. If it happens, because the road those who voted for

it who may get disappointed, those who voted remain will be

disappointed it will happen at all, questions about the economy, so

Brexit, when would you fancy it happening? They agree with John, I

think it will be kicked down the road. People who voted for Brexit,

it has to be seen to be beginning to happen, but if you have Theresa May

saying we have to sort out the inter-UK issues with Scotland first,

that may take time. It's taken 300 years! That was a bluff. There is no

way the Scottish Nationalists would call another referendum because they

would lose it, well being the price it is they cannot sustain an

independent Scotland, Europe would not welcome an independent Scotland

because they would be terrified of the nationalist minority, they would

not let them join the EU. That is a red herring. But can you see this

will be to down the road for a long time because it is legally complex,

business people talk about consulting lawyers. But that goes to

waste because Europe will be kicking down the road the crisis this has

brought about, so what are we withdrawing from? If there's going

to be a different Europe it is Germany will have to deal with its

problems, France will have to deal with the rise of Marine Le Pen, we

are talking about a different Europe. A more Europe? That is quite

I would steer away from the term kicking it down the road, we are in

the hostage to developments, France and Germany have elections next year

and they will hinge on negotiations, you may not know from one day to the

next how opinions of these countries are brought to bear. Europeans may

understand Britain has a point. They already think it does. You have to

cope with history in its raw power. There are also signs of a number of

European countries, quite if you eastern European countries, who do

not wish to see a golf develop. Between the UK and the rest of

Europe, and that will be a major factor. On the migration issue, I

think that's different Europe. People are worried about migration

from Europe and people injured are worried about migration from

outside. Especially about what has happened in Turkey.

Those of us who have listened to more than one Donald Trump speech

or read his Twitter comments may assume the secret of making

America Great Again is to be tough and smart.

But what does the Republican candidate for the presidency really

offer the United States beyond the kind of oratory

which clearly appeals to millions of Americans

And when exactly did America cease being great?

I was trying to figure that out. What do you make of his appeal? I

think there's a danger of being smug enough outrage and dismay, there is

a vulgar raises intron of the political process, a Britishness,

all this we can agree on, but as a businessman he has found a big niche

in the market, the alienation niche years eating too which the two major

parties in the US have not addressed seriously for 30 years and maybe

that is where we should give our attention. What can be done to

relieve that sense of alienation which is very great? In that sense

Hillary Clinton is the greatest four because she has been associated as

First Lady, Senator, Secretary of State, she is Mrs Washington? I'm

going to be smug, there are not two sides to this argument, this man is

seriously dangerous, and the most dangerous thing is that he is

discrediting the Democratic process. He is not just discrediting what we

call big governing class, but the idea that democracy can be a

solution to problems and what he is selling something people jump on

tables to advocate. It's a kind of, populism is to mount a word, it is

demagoguery, there is a photo of him giving his acceptance speech at the

convention with a huge screen of his face and it's like a scene from

Citizen Kane. This is the supposed voice of the common man, this

billionaire who is a dog, -- a thug, this is a kind of bank tourism in

politics which is so frightening that I don't think one can pretend

to be impartial. But you were right in your description of the

phenomenon but it is also to do with the powers that be having neglected

this sense of alienation and have themselves to blame for the

phenomenon. But the thing about what American calls the middle-class...

Working people. Blue-collar people, white, working class, those people

were screwed over a long time ago. The rust has existed for a long

time, Detroit's was damaged a long time ago but all it takes is for

someone to jump on a chair, the kind of Rosing thinks he is doing, this

isn't a new set of conditions he is talking about, so why now? I was

going to suggest maybe one reason is that people think globalisation is a

project which has failed. It doesn't help me. It's not a project, it's a

fact to do with technology. But it's disruptive technology and many

people are saying, John F. Kennedy could say there was a rising tide, a

lot of people have boats in the water. This is not separate from

what is happening in Europe, Trump is an American version. If you were

a steelworker in Ohio, it doesn't seem irreversible. The endless

expatriation of jobs, manufacturing jobs, you can understand why these

people will find some resonance for their feelings, ugly as it is, in

the politics of Mr Trump. He is now trying to reach out to Bernie

Sanders supporters. It is the incoherence, this is not politics.

He is talking sometimes like an anti-capitalist and sometimes like a

liberal cosmopolitan New York, but the populism isn't even coherent, he

said in that speech things that were utterly contradictory, that sounded

like a Liberal Democrat, and at other times he was flogging this

racist anti-immigrant line. But Ukip is reaching out to the same sort of

voters as Jeremy Corbyn because these are disrupt the times. But

with more consistent arguments. In terms of what he says, do people in

the US believe there will be a big wall between the US and Mexico? Few

people believe he will expect crime problem? I wondered if people, at

what level do the eye into this because they know crime will not be

fixed by a president? To say that he is answering to a sense of ageing

nation doesn't mean that I believe any more than any of us that he has

the solutions. It seems to me evidently doesn't but even in defeat

he will leave a huge vacuum in American politics that will have to

be filled by somebody who can take those grievances and steer them in a

more productive and redemptive way. There's a parallel between him and

Jeremy Corbyn in Britain, no one believes Corbyn will become Prime

Minister but he calls himself the voice of the disenfranchised, Trump

calls himself, whatever arguments he uses maybe contradict it but he

still has that wonderful sales line as the voice, we note there are

injustices and imbalances in Britain, he may not be the one to

solve them... Corbyn doesn't even pretend to want to be elected. But

that is extra power in a quirky sense because he mobilises the

grassroots on the streets. I would draw more of a parallel between

Corbyn and Bernie Sanders because there is a sense of a movement, from

is just loving himself. If I could inject an optimistic note, one thing

that was impressed on me as a Brit who spent 40 years travelling the

world on behalf of the New York Times is that America has the

capacity to make big mistakes but also a capacity who correct them and

rise again, and I think America will wind its way through this chaos and

this rid of great anxiety and without Mr Trump it will one day

be... Great. Winston Churchill once said the American people make the

right decision usually after exhausting every possibility. Where

does this leave Hillary Clinton, as the next president? I hope so. She

has all sorts of problems but I think she would make a competent

president. She is saying, intelligent, experienced, her

foreign policy is quite sound and I think her personal failings were not

impinge that much on her function as a president. And Tim Kane is a good

choice electorally and for balance in the party. It's not the Bernie

Sanders choice. She has made the calculation she needs to look

towards the centre rather than them count on Bernie Sanders supporters,

she is counting on them voting against front, I am not certain

Trump cannot win, and I am also not sure about the vacuum, even if

Hillary does with this phase is going to remain, this golf is going

to remain. The Republican Party will be in difficulty whatever happens.

They already are. It's a very good combination, Tim Kane and Hillary,

and the difference between Trump and Hillary is that she continues to

believe in using the instruments of State for responsible

administration. They say she represents the establishment but

don't write off the establishment completely, it has a mountain of

historical precedent on which to try and evolve sensible policies. You

have to try rather than coming with unfulfilled bold promises. Just

eight I not God, I have the dust in American politics the app union

polls, we get excited but they don't matter until September. Who believes

in polls anymore? They have a great record. I thought you wanted to be

positive? How much have they done for us so far?

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