30/07/2016 Dateline London


30/07/2016

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places staying dry. Scotland and Northern Ireland are the focal point

:00:00.:00:00.

for more showers. Temperatures in the upper teens, maybe the low 20s

:00:00.:00:00.

in the south-eastern corner. Looking ahead towards next week, and we have

:00:00.:00:00.

some weather systems coming in from the Atlantic and it looks like it

:00:07.:00:09.

could be wet on Monday in the southern half of the UK. Looking out

:00:10.:00:12.

of the Atlantic for further whether his system is heading our way, next

:00:13.:00:13.

week it is increasingly unsettled. Hello and welcome

:00:14.:00:25.

to Dateline London. The Pope says the world is at war -

:00:26.:00:28.

but not over religion. Is Hillary Clinton,

:00:29.:00:31.

as President Obama put it, the best qualified candidate male

:00:32.:00:34.

or female ever to run And will being qualified

:00:35.:00:36.

actually help her against Plus: the Olympics -

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a festival of sport or a festival of cheating

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and performance enhancing drugs? My guests today are

:00:46.:00:51.

the writer and broadcaster Jeffrey Kofman, Nabila Ramdani

:00:52.:00:53.

who is a French Algerian journalist, Yasmin Alibhai Brown

:00:54.:00:55.

the writer and commentator, It does not take courage or skill

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for two 19-year-olds armed with knives to murder

:00:58.:01:12.

an unarmed 86-year-old man. Following the attack on an elderly

:01:13.:01:13.

catholic priest Jacques Hamel in Normandy, Pope Francis commented

:01:14.:01:16.

that the world is at war, but not over religion -

:01:17.:01:18.

over money and resources. And are French media organisations

:01:19.:01:21.

wise to decide not to carry pictures of terrorists to avoid posthumously

:01:22.:01:24.

glorifying what are fundamentally In terms of the world at war over

:01:25.:01:34.

resources, is that how people see it or is it more they seek to derange

:01:35.:01:39.

people on the fringes of French society who carried out this attack?

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The Pope is making a more general comment. He is a modern Pope. He

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needs to be a media player, he needs to come up with short, sharp sound

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bites as opposed to the more intellectual words he uses any way.

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He is right that the world is always at war and has been for thousands of

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years. It has been often over religion, often over other factors

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such as the balance of power and of course nowadays religion is less

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prominent in Western societies. I think his Holiness is absolutely

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right to argue money and resources are more likely to motivate

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aggressions by countries such as America and Russia rather than

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religion for example. That is why we have expressions such as oil wars.

:02:29.:02:34.

We have the military-industrial complex, from the US, that is so

:02:35.:02:40.

influential in the world. It supports countries that bolster its

:02:41.:02:44.

materialistic mindset. At the other end of the scale however, I think it

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is also fair to say that a lack of power and resources is also at the

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root of problems in Iraq and Afghanistan, to take up arms against

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other forces. Economic is the primary human factor and nothing

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much has changed. -- economics. I think he is using his position to

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define the conflict. I do not think it is about resources and economic,

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it is about culture, whether that is religion or values. It is the

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inability of France and other countries to reconcile with their

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large immigrant population, a population from the Middle East,

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often North Africa, they have not assimilated and have been

:03:32.:03:33.

marginalised the last 50 or 60 years. While he may say it is not

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religion, it has a religious origin, a religious cultural origin. You

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have to look at the facts however, none of those involved are

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particularly religious. They are often mentally ill. That is why I

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say culture. I think France has more to do with its own criminal

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underclass. As a general understatement about war is over

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resources, undoubtedly that is correct, but coming after a few

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19-year-olds who murder and 86 euros guy who happened to be a priest,

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that seemed to be giving a grandiose statement about something which was

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no better than street corner thugs. Yes, I think so. There's a tendency

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to glorify and build street thugs as this huge enemy, sophisticated

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force. There is nothing to this gated about what is at the end a

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cowardly and barbaric act. -- sophisticated. It is not possible in

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today's world to say it has nothing to do with religion. It is not

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possible. There is something happening in the Islamic world that

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is terrifying and it comes from Saudi Arabia. The sources are our

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allies. That is where some of this is coming from. I just do not think

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it is wise to say at this moment, yes, some of these people are

:05:07.:05:12.

mentally ill, some of them were bad, not mad, we have to admit there are

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some pretty awful people living everywhere. The religious motivation

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that is planted in the heads of young people, some of them from

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quite middle-class families. I do not know why it is happening, but it

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is the religious fervour that is being injected into the heads of

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people who were born here. What do you think? I think it does not help

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to describe it as war. You have military situation of a kind. These

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people are taking action, if you describe it as war, then the next

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censorship. This war language is an instinctive thing which does not

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help. The war on drugs, how has that lingering? Exactly. We have to look

:06:02.:06:06.

at the alienation factor, some are second, third generation. I know

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second and third-generation Bangladeshis who do not know what is

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their culture from whether parents came from. Is what has gone wrong

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where they do not know their historic ancestral culture and they

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do not feel part of this culture. Not enough attention is paid to

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that. Do you see echoes of that in France, people are not fully

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integrated? The Prime Minister of France often speaks about those

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ethnic minorities who are segregated. He speaks about it

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economic, social apartheid, but there is never any action by the

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government to make sure they are included and are part and parcel of

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French assertive. There is some radicalisation going on, but we

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essentially are dealing with very angry young men with criminal

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backgrounds who take on this fantastical cause, because they have

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nothing much to look forward to beyond prison. You can take up any

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cause and turn it into a murderous cause. Secularism was the most

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murderous ideology of the 20th century, Stalinism, Nazism, you can

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take anything and turn it into that. The point about religious warfare

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here, this is whether the Pope likes it or not, this has the potential if

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it is not already becoming that, one man died in a church in a small town

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in France. Remember, in January 2015, there was a terrorist attack

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on a grocery store, the attacks are almost expected, but to go to the

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heart of a Catholic nation, a small-town church, it does set the

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otherness of all of this. It plays into the extremism of Marine Le Pen.

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Anyone is a target as far as the criminals are concerned. You cannot

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ignore the fact that in the Middle East we have an explosive situation.

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When was the last time the Khalifa came up? It came up when the Ottoman

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Empire collapsed. In that sense it is a huge symbol for some Muslims.

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It is a deeply corrupt version of religion and politically. I am not

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denying that. We cannot avoid the central issue. We Muslims in the

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West, all around the world, there is not a single Muslim state where

:08:51.:08:55.

there is proper accountability where citizens feel safe. Not one. But we

:08:56.:09:00.

are talking about French individuals. Can I finish? Please,

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allow me to finish. We cannot get away from the fact that as I get a

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look lot of e-mails from young Muslims saying all I feel ashamed.

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There is part of that going on. Also the double standards. US bombs

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recently in the last two weeks killed hundreds of civilians. Right?

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Hundreds of civilians, dropped them in civilian areas. Young Muslims

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especially the most intelligent and watchful ones are consumed with the

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idea of double standards. All kinds of anger. Not just criminality or

:09:38.:09:42.

mental illness which are part of it, all kinds of things. All of this

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plays into the polarisation of politics, whether it is Donald Trump

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or Marine Le Pen, these terrorist acts are designed to create this. I

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agree with the view on the double standards. Now we are hearing from

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the Prime Minister who wants to prevent foreign funding to mosques

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in France. He has a fabricated assumption that Islam is the cause

:10:07.:10:10.

of terrorism. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot point your

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fingers at the Saudis and say we do not want your money in French masks

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and themselves weapons to Saudi Arabia which fuels conflict in

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Yemen. It is France, the US, the UK, they are our allies.

:10:27.:10:30.

The British people - we were told during the referendum

:10:31.:10:33.

on European Union membership - are tired of experts.

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Perhaps the American people are tired too -

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in which case Barack Obama's endorsement of Hillary Clinton

:10:39.:10:41.

as the best qualified candidate for the White House may not

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In the week of her nomination as the Democratic party candidate,

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do we think Hillary Clinton really can become the first female

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I hope she can. Not necessarily because I think it is the female

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argument, although it would be a good thing, we have a female Prime

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Minister. The woman I most admire in the world today is Angela Merkel. I

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really do, I wish I could live in Berlin, please do not e-mail and

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tell me to go! LAUGHTER You are right, there is this

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extraordinary reaction against the educated expert, the political class

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and so on. People want something raw and boy have they got raw meat in

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Donald Trump. There is a real risk. It is interesting to watch the two

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conventions, the Democratic convention was conventional if you

:11:45.:11:48.

like, Hillary Clinton turned up the day before with President Obama. The

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Republican convention was a one-man show, Donald Trump was there all the

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time. Conventions used to be when the candidate came at the last

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moment and was crowned. It seems the American people have decided that

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their politics do not work. They will go for a millionaire or

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billionaire who espouse Cecil in business, it does not matter what he

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says and they seem to think when he gets into the White House he will

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appoint the right experts to make the country run well which is

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extraordinary. -- who is successful in business. If Hillary Clinton as

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we saw signs on Thursday night, if she can define Donald Trump rather

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than vice versa, these infantile tweets that came out yesterday and

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today, crooked Hillary was at it again. It is all schoolyard viewing,

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all 140 characters or luminous. She made it clear that he is a dangerous

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choice. She has to persuade the voters of that. -- of silliness.

:12:53.:13:02.

There is no guarantee he cannot beat Hillary. But he continues to put his

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foot in his mouth. Why do so many people according to the opinion

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polls, the complicated way that presidents are elected we will get

:13:12.:13:16.

two in a second, the polls show that he is ahead, if he puts his foot in

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his mouth, then it plays into that narrative. Traditional politics here

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in the UK and the US is not serving a huge area of the middle-class, the

:13:28.:13:33.

lower class, those people feel the opportunities of the 21st century...

:13:34.:13:36.

We have talked about it before, they feel it has passed them by. Brexit

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is an expression of that and Donald Trump is an expression of that. He

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wants to take it back to the white world. He wants to take it back to a

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world that never existed. The slogan was we want our country back said

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the Leave campaign and the simple-minded slogans seem to have a

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potency I never thought possible. Hillary Clinton finally pointed out

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when did America sees to be great? That is the pushback. If Americans

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think that, they may conclude... I think she is still very much in the

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running. After a messy beginning to the week with the Bernie Sanders

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people booing her agenda and her, she managed to pull the party

:14:28.:14:33.

together. She is not a terrific or so, but her speech pressed all the

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buttons she needed to commission showed humanity and vision. -- a too

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horrific speaker. I spoke in Michigan teaching, that is an area

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that is crucial to trump. They are traditionally Democrats, they are

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increasingly turning Republican red, that means that Donald Trump's

:15:00.:15:04.

victory, he can be within reach. I have a lot of friends who live

:15:05.:15:09.

there, male and female and they absolutely despise Hillary Clinton.

:15:10.:15:15.

They view her as an old has mean who should have retired years ago with

:15:16.:15:19.

her millions of dollars. They see her as a thoroughly dishonest

:15:20.:15:26.

politician who is greedy. Of course, in principle, having the first woman

:15:27.:15:30.

president in the US could be a very good thing, but why does it have two

:15:31.:15:37.

be the dodgy one. The dodgy wife of a former president. Issue really

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dodgy? Bill Clinton said there are two Hillary is, the caricature and

:15:43.:15:50.

the real one. -- Hillarys. When you look at her versus Donald Trump's

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business fraud... To have your own e-mail server. She has made some

:15:56.:16:00.

colossal mistakes which you will pay for. Trump was saying that it would

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be good if the Russians would drop a bomb, that does not seem to have

:16:10.:16:16.

affected him. People feel fairly disenfranchise, people from the car

:16:17.:16:20.

industry, the steel industry, they do not have a job and they do not

:16:21.:16:24.

think they have a future. When Donald Trump goes into those states

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and promises if he becomes president, Apple will have to have

:16:30.:16:34.

its factories in America as opposed to China, cars will have to be

:16:35.:16:37.

produced in America as opposed to Mexico, he speaks to those people,

:16:38.:16:43.

he is offering them a job. Even people think it is nonsense, the

:16:44.:16:51.

experts would you cannot tell Apple where to put their factories? Well,

:16:52.:16:56.

unemployment in the US has gone down. Present Obama came in in 2008

:16:57.:17:02.

when the economy was in a tailspin and the economy is quite strong now.

:17:03.:17:07.

-- President Obama. These people work in Walmart during the day and

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then they work in KFC at night, they are carrying two jobs to stay afloat

:17:13.:17:16.

and they are barely staying afloat, that is the resentment. That was the

:17:17.:17:21.

same with the Brexit vote. People feel left behind by globalisation.

:17:22.:17:27.

At the heart of one of the bills is a very frightening anti-immigrant

:17:28.:17:30.

sentiment that Donald Trump is buying into. I do agree with what

:17:31.:17:38.

you said about Hillary Clinton, I share some of your reservations, but

:17:39.:17:43.

my God, when this mantle is about Mexicans and Muslims and the other

:17:44.:17:49.

in the open way he does, it is the lesser of the two evils. Gerald Ford

:17:50.:17:55.

was supposed to have lost the election because he did not know

:17:56.:17:59.

that Eastern Europe was under the rule of the Communists, but Donald

:18:00.:18:03.

Trump says the Mexicans will build a wall and the Mexicans have said they

:18:04.:18:06.

will not build a wall, that does not feature. He is getting away with

:18:07.:18:14.

this kind of rhetoric and what is interesting is what has so change in

:18:15.:18:18.

America, even his supporters do not believe the Mexicans will pay the

:18:19.:18:23.

wall. A lot of people do not believe he will actually build a wall, but

:18:24.:18:28.

the metaphor and the rhetoric of what they like. It is not that they

:18:29.:18:31.

are being suckered into believing that this war which would cost

:18:32.:18:36.

billions would be financed by a country that be hurt by it. The

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world's only superpower, that has only Donald Trump and Hillary

:18:43.:18:46.

Clinton, that is depressing. You sound like an American voter! A lot

:18:47.:18:51.

of people are in that position. I would rather have a much more

:18:52.:18:55.

talented candidate against Donald Trump. I do not like the politicians

:18:56.:18:59.

who have been defeated in the past and come back. We see that in French

:19:00.:19:03.

politics, but Hillary Clinton has been defeated by President Obama

:19:04.:19:08.

because she was far less popular and credible. We are where we are and

:19:09.:19:14.

now the bigger threat to the world actually is Donald Trump. Actually,

:19:15.:19:18.

I would dispute that. In terms of the safety and the stability of the

:19:19.:19:22.

rest of the world, Hillary Clinton could be a much more dangerous

:19:23.:19:29.

prospect. Why? His foreign policy is absolutely clear, he will withdraw

:19:30.:19:33.

into some kind of Republican isolationism. Whereas we know that

:19:34.:19:38.

Clinton is a warmonger. She will antagonise, she will continue

:19:39.:19:44.

Obama's aggressive drone policies, antagonise Putin and Iran. Iran was

:19:45.:19:54.

brought into the fold. This is believed to be the reason why the

:19:55.:19:57.

Russians have hacked into her computers. This leads directly to

:19:58.:20:06.

the murder of the US ambassador. I'm sorry, Donald Trump may offer you a

:20:07.:20:13.

job in a minute. I am not underestimating her danger is that

:20:14.:20:16.

man is, I'm just discussing foreign policy. I will cheer us all up by

:20:17.:20:22.

talking about the Olympics. Having seen what is happening with dope

:20:23.:20:29.

testing, it is a time stuff there. I think the Olympics will be the most

:20:30.:20:33.

difficult. In the past we have always had Will the stage in the

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right, first of all some of the stadiums, some people have not even

:20:39.:20:42.

gone into the athletes village, but the fact of doping, yes, it does

:20:43.:20:49.

mean sporting corruption, but that is brown envelopes being exchanged.

:20:50.:20:54.

When you have doping, you cannot believe in sport. It is the myth and

:20:55.:20:59.

the magic of sport. When someone lines up, you want someone to beat

:21:00.:21:03.

him, now you watch the race and you do not know who is on drugs and who

:21:04.:21:07.

is not and that destroys the whole basis. You have to trust that this

:21:08.:21:12.

is people by their own time and grit and perseverance. The whole business

:21:13.:21:20.

of the Olympics, whether you look at international football, everything

:21:21.:21:23.

has been corrupted by money, everything. There are no sports any

:21:24.:21:31.

more. Even cricket. One of the greatest of moral games! I think the

:21:32.:21:38.

Olympics are different from them international football, American

:21:39.:21:41.

baseball, just as an international collective face on a collective of

:21:42.:21:47.

ideals and when the modern Olympics began in 1896, it was about bringing

:21:48.:21:56.

nations together. It was an enlightened way to unite the world.

:21:57.:22:01.

Even those who are chosen to host the Olympics, the corruption goes

:22:02.:22:08.

all the way. What we have seen with Russia is a state dominated

:22:09.:22:11.

drug-taking which we have not seen since the days of the East Germans

:22:12.:22:16.

and on a very big scale, even the Russian secret service was involved,

:22:17.:22:20.

making sure it is happening. The money point is you cannot offend the

:22:21.:22:24.

Russians or anyone who is too powerful because there are so many

:22:25.:22:31.

at -- because there are so much money at stake. The IOC think it is

:22:32.:22:35.

their sport and they want the whole world to be there, one of the

:22:36.:22:39.

decisions they take is to cosy up to politicians where is in the past

:22:40.:22:44.

they did not do that. In Rio, for the athletes they have to swear they

:22:45.:22:49.

will not dope or take drugs. This is where the world has come to. They

:22:50.:22:56.

will not take drugs now! LAUGHTER Do you remember the remaining team?

:22:57.:23:00.

And then you remember how much was going on. It is not new. I think the

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system was created where people can form as individuals, now we have

:23:12.:23:16.

Team GB. It has become very much a patriotic thing rather than

:23:17.:23:21.

individuals. Yes. I think my general view is I have always thought of the

:23:22.:23:27.

Tour de France as having the best unity in the world, despite years of

:23:28.:23:31.

shambolic drug scandals, it always comes back every year as if nothing

:23:32.:23:38.

has happened! It is one of the few things we can win! The Olympics are

:23:39.:23:43.

going down exactly the same way and I have to say they are letting the

:23:44.:23:47.

Russians compete in the rear Olympics and I think that is like

:23:48.:23:51.

having Lance Armstrong back in the Tour de France, it turns everything

:23:52.:23:57.

into a laughing stock. It is how the politicians view sport. Obama and

:23:58.:24:01.

Cameron played table tennis and people judge them on how well they

:24:02.:24:05.

were playing. That is something that Clement Attlee and Winston Church

:24:06.:24:12.

would not have done. Maybe golf. -- Winston Churchill. I am interested

:24:13.:24:19.

in sport, I read the back pages, but now it is on the front pages. Putin

:24:20.:24:24.

plays this game brilliantly, he got the Winter games, but that was an

:24:25.:24:29.

artificial city he built. After the games, will people start playing the

:24:30.:24:35.

games? One solution would be to let everyone take as many drugs as they

:24:36.:24:39.

want and then everybody is equal. In a desperate attempt to end the

:24:40.:24:46.

programme on a happy note, the 2012 Olympics was going to be a disaster,

:24:47.:24:54.

but it was brilliant. It really was. When we get some great results and

:24:55.:24:58.

Usain Bolt does his stuff, we will all feel yes! Looking at what we

:24:59.:25:06.

were and what Britain has since become. You have just killed the

:25:07.:25:13.

feel-good factor. Sorry, I am a depressive! LAUGHTER

:25:14.:25:19.

You can comment on the programme on Twitter and engage

:25:20.:25:23.

We're back next week at the same time -

:25:24.:25:27.

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