10/12/2016 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

Did Russia win the US presidential election for Trump?

Britain's foreign secretary accuses Britain's ally Saudi Arabia

of being engaged in a proxy war in the Middle East -

is telling the truth generally a mistake in diplomacy?

And Angela Merkel wants to outlaw the burka -

might this be connected to next year's German election?

Jeffrey Kofman, who is a North American journalist

Mina al Oraibi who is an Iraqi journalist

and Ian Birrell of the Mail on Sunday.

US intelligence now believes that Russian hackers may have influenced

Does this mean Donald Trump owes his victory to the Kremlin?

It sure the ability it shows the vulnerability democracy the 21st

century and it is a terrifying notion that Miller hand I think

we're seeing this post truth world of us that Americans will believe

they to believe so those who look at the CIA and look at the evidence and

say this is credible and a real threat will be upset. The supporters

of Trump and the people voted for him and the Breitbart readers of the

world will say is just another fabrication. They will say it is not

real news because it is becoming so hard to distinguish what is real

news in what is fake news. This is absolutely serious stuff. When the

CIA and American intelligence officials tell newspapers that this

is what happened and Mr Trump 's campaign said these are the same gas

and seven was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, does that

neutralise it? I think it is a very good talking point. Good for him and

Guthrie 's handlers. It is a nice one. But it does not neutralise it

at all. I think what is interesting is that President Obama and his last

days in office has said I wanted a report before I leave office on the

20th of January. This is Obama 's last stand and he is saying let's

get this on the record, folks. Seed can be sure that there will be a

cluster of people working through the Christmas holidays trying to

assemble evidence so that sometime in January the 10th of January 15

will get a report that puts us on summer record before Donald Trump

moves into the White House. The first thing is that trumps people

are saying these unsinkable blotchy weapons of mass destruction reports,

undermining the CAA. This is the President-elect again and his team

undermining our core pillar of America's security. We saw the FBI

getting involved before the election when they bought up the whole issue

with Clinton's e-mails. Again people were questioning what is the FBI

director trying to do here? So in the one hand it is about the

weakness of democracy or the Von ability of democracy. If you start

tampering with basics like do we trust the department of justice? Do

we trust the CIA? As American population. At about the fact that

Russia was involved one way of the other in terms of trying to sway the

election at least by the news of the spitting out and the sorts of

rumours were put out that Clinton is very ill. If you watched any of the

mansion media the of reports about Clinton tells think she was going to

die tomorrow. -- Russian media. We don't know goes as far as hacking or

leaking but the wicked leak story is an untold story. --Wikileaks. The

New York Times say that the data came from people known to be

associated with the Kremlin. The implication for that is that

Wikileaks would be their conduit from Kremlin disinformation. That

could have swung the election fever Donald Trump. Correct. As

journalists you are given something by someone that is leaked to you

because they want that information to come out. You don't necessarily

have to be seen as a tool for our outlets give me that league. I think

quite often all of us in our careers have been placed in that moment

where you know they're trying to drive a political axe but the

information itself, you will put it out in the public domain. We're

talking about Trump. We should talk about Putin. He is a real man of the

year 2016. He must be grinning every morning when he wakes up. There has

been Brexit, he dreams of the EU breaking up. And Trump, his biggest

fan, and the White House. The thing with Russia come on the -- thing

with Russia is there a time frame and the mindset is fixed on

centuries. This is the great Russia, to spread like China. Vladimir Putin

is in the long game and looks at Brexit going in his direction.

Presidential in France will be between two great frowns of Vladimir

Putin. -- fans. Nato is not really a threat to Russia any more. Look at

the world. I'm not even talking about Syria. This is frightening.

But I think we should start thinking the way he thinks and perhaps we

will be slightly less vulnerable. The thing that amazes me about this

story and goes back to something Jeffrey says is that although we did

not know and American intelligence didn't see this through the

newspapers the election campaign, it was known that Vladimir Putin seem

to prefer the candidacy of Donald Trump which in any American

presidential election since 1945 would have been Mr Kiss of death.

People just ignored it. Trump said an outrageous thing everyday city

just one piece of information in a notion of outrageous backs. Trump

invited this to happen in stood up on a platform and invited Russia to

influence the election and hacked e-mails Mr Mann is going to be the

next president. We shouldn't forget that. It is part of a bigger picture

where the values of liberal democracy under challenge under

assault on in the world. It is not just about Europe and Vladimir Putin

in America. It is not just about events in the Netherlands and France

and Britain with Brexit. It is watching Turkey which has pivoted

more towards Russia, traditional ally of the West and seeking to join

Europe. There is a report that they have replaced the generals were more

pro-Russian generals. The Philippines, Russia's biggest ally

is idolising President Putin. In Africa, in West Africa democracy is

so precious and GEC what happened in Nigeria with that fantastic

transformation of power. We have events going on in Gambia where

there is a struggle for power struggle for democracy but in the

West we throwing away something which is so precious to others. Also

we have countries with a Chinese model of autocracy is being seen as

a model to mimic. We'll fight for liberal democracy is under challenge

all around the world. Think the West has been incredibly weak and

incredibly short-sighted in allowing this to happen. Don't think flooded

near Putin is all about long term, I think is a short-term opportunist

and I think you see something goes for it and he is brilliant at using

those opportunities to pushes or names. With a long-term objective of

projecting his own power base and not having liberal democracy in his

own country. He knows he will be in power for so many years. To pick up

from what Ian says, I think what is becoming clearer and clearer in this

allegation against Russia simply asked who it is that after 70 years

of stability and liberal democracy after the Second World War we are

going through a pivot and we don't know where this is going to take is.

I think a lot of it, amazingly, comes out of social media and the

proliferation of social media around the world. It is change the nature

of discourse. What is so dangerous as the institutions of democracy,

American democracy and European democracy, were not really designed

to handle these kind of intrusions, hacking by the Russians and the alt

right and their false news in the United States. That all adds up to

an uncertain future. In a democracy where people are expected to inform

themselves and choose, if the old information system is corrupted in

some way by various people, then it becomes very difficult to make a

rational choice. It is true and the information system is being

corrupted but I would see it is beyond just information social

media, which is important. Also the fact is important. Also the factors

is that in most Western liberal democracies the wealth gap is

increasing and the people who are disenchanted and liberal values and

things that we think about and take into consideration, many people are

struggling to get by and the sake please get on with that. Spain are

struggling with 25% unemployment amongst issues. They are not talking

about how we're bringing European values into the world. I think also

part of the problem is after the Cold War ended this idea that

capitalism one. What is capitalism done with the world? . People look

at economic models and say state capitalism and let them take care of

me because we feel we have been left out. What we take away from this

Russian hacking is that the means to disrupt democracy or to disrupt

other governments are at your fingertips if you know how to use

your computer. And that opens up a vulnerability and an the stability

of us into unknown waters. I think of a real duty as journalist to

fight back and present the facts. People talk about capitalism being a

failure that life expectancy is soaring around the world. I

understand the point. We have a duty to engage these arguments and

Gallas. When Nigel Farage stands up and says actually Russia was

provoked into what happened in the Ukraine, we have a duty to point out

that is a downright lie. I absolutely agree. But it is who is

your audience and how Rogers received information? -- how does

your audience receive information? This week Britain's Foreign

Secretary Boris Johnson - a man with a reputation

for being born with a silver foot in his mouth -

did something he may regret: he told He spoke of Britain's ally Saudi

Arabia and Iran "puppeteering" - pulling the strings behind proxy

wars in Syria, Yemen and Iraq. As Donald Trump also learns

about his new job after a minor scuffle with China -

is telling the truth in diplomacy Is a proxy war are not? I would say

that the premise that Boris Johnson was telling truth, I disagree with

wholeheartedly. Yemen is not a and Syria is not Libya. -- Iraq. It is

easy to see this is between Saudi Arabia and Iran. It is not true.

What is happening in Iraq is the consequence of the 2003 war and the

failures after that and a lot of internal dynamics and Iran exporting

revolution coming into Iraq and what they're doing there. Was people

inside Iraq would come plain that the Saudis did not do enough to

engage Arabs and bring back the Arab presence in Iraq. In 2010 and 2009

Iraq was complaining that Syria was the main source of terrorism inside

Iraq that went as far as to take it to the UN. Then we going to Syria.

Let's not forget that this peaceful uprising against the regime where

people don't even want to remove President Assad but just to fight

corruption and those who are committing crimes through the

security practice. It is when the West stood up and said President

Assad must go that the whole dynamic change. All I would say is that

Boris Johnson has a responsibility as Foreign Secretary not to narrow

down to one sound bite and say this is actually what it is about. That

is the biggest concern, I think. Not for Saudi Arabia but for many people

from the region saying it is not just about Iran. For that is the

whole issue a proxy war it is not just a rant we have Russia and

America, Turkey and Iran. There many countries involved so let's not

simplify at an almost abdicate responsibility. That criticism

implies he's intellectually lazy and is not mastered his brief India's

Foreign Secretary and he's been to the Middle East shortly after the

Prime Minister. There have often been allegations made that Boris

Johnson this are the master of his brief. I agree with a lot of what

you're saying, it totally excludes other players. It excludes local

politics on the ground and see these big clashes just like in Ukraine has

quit international global clashes and ignore the people on the ground

in the ground. It will find it rather gratifying that they begin to

see this. It begs the question why is Britain selling weapons to one of

the key players in this? Why is Britain so long back to cause a

force like Arabia. In some conflicts with on the side of one member

reports to them and you look at what is happening in the Libya and we are

opposed to one nation and we are in the same service Syria. That is with

the local dynamics come in. It was depressing to hear the premise to

stand up and say actually these countries, he's got potentates, the

forces that we can do business is the backing of almost models, she

was saying. I find that very depressing so does beg a lot of

questions about the half-truths and have statements that Boris Johnson

was making and then also the very depressing business as usual

response. Let's not forget Tony Blair, his biggest mistake of all I

think, as most outrageous thing was not just the Iraq war, it is that he

usurped the British justice system that point of corruption case was

being waged over arms dealing and dodgy potential charges of arms

dealing involving Saudi Arabia at the behest of the Saudi Arabians

Tony Blair canned court case in Britain and that is most outrageous

thing possibly that he did in power. What is depressing is hearing the

Prime Minister slapping down the Foreign Secretary. Could they not

agree before the script? Probably appointing Boris Johnson as Foreign

Secretary and the first place was mistake. You see sodium that

internal wall within the Conservative wrecking foreign

policy. The same way that Brexit happen. She needs supporters of

Brexit N Howard government that seems to enjoy slapping down in

public. There will be a leadership contest. It will be able to last for

a very long time because they will slap back. In the end to schoolyard

politics and we're talking important issues here. That is a question

where we talked a lot about the Trump situation social media and

people do expect more engagement and even in the post-truth world I think

people have an issue raised by what is going on that should we have more

openness and more truth telling with the world of democracy just within

diplomacy justice within the world of politics? I do think that whether

or not it was inappropriate and whether or not it was informed that

this parallel with Trump taking a call from the president of Taiwan

and upsetting the Chinese. I think the nature of this new order of

leadership that we are seeing, they will not follow protocols are we

better get used to it. I think it is perilous and I think some people,

times I feel this tiptoeing around the issues hasn't worked and has

been sustaining resumes it should be removed. It can be refreshing. When

he talked about how wily was actually on to something. -- Taiwan.

I remember sitting here when Boris Johnson was appointed Foreign

Secretary and I remember seeing that this was one of those cases of

Theresa May being a very savvy politician because as much as he was

a loose cannon that she did not include him in a senior role it

because more grief. The old keep your friends close and your enemies

closer. They are not met at -- the other metaphor is give them enough

rope to hang themselves only take a couple of feet. -- he just took a

couple of feet. There is great unease in Britain,

France and all across western Europe about the failure of some Muslims

to integrate happily For some, Muslim women wearing

the burka have become a symbol of precisely that

failure to integrate. Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel -

facing a tough election next year - But do European governments have

more important things to worry That's it for Dateline

London for this week. There was the burkini in the summer.

The Barca is not a neutral piece of clothing. --Burka. A lot of people

on the social media as what the problem was with the burkini --

asked what was the problem. The burkini is religious and a pretty

harsh logistic cat and women. Interpretation. And so was the you

can tell people how should they address. -- and so was the burqa. .

Covering your face in Western society says I don't want to

integrate and having a hijab says that's fine. To most Western

Europeans does mean integration. For a lot of Muslim countries the burqa.

Self as an aberration. We are seeing a change in society. We never used

to see the burqa on the streets that are 40 years ago. The problems about

integrated and not integrating. One thing with the burqa issue can see

it is security consideration of thing that was clear from the

comments by Angela Merkel. I think that you can make a security

argument and I can see it for you not like to go into a bag with a

helmet on strike I can see that. The problem is when it becomes about

Muslims and integration. Then it is easy to pick the women and quite

often it is frustrating as a woman to have to push back against these

things because I don't want to be in a position they were just talking

about whether the mac what a can occur nowhere. There's an idea if I

wanted with a scuba diving suit because I do want my skin exposed

that is OK but that if it is about religion and becomes about

integrating. It is about how we approached issues. The last thing

you want to do is just gave is very simplistic interpretation about what

it means to integrate and not because I think despite being

law-abiding citizens but also speaking the language and engaging

society and engaging with community. Those things stock about stock about

clearly and openly in saying yes that are some problems with

integration of different communities. This is a struggle

between pluralism and secularism and at the same time this week there was

a case in Germany that highlighted as much as the comments by Angela

Merkel what the challenges. A 30-year-old Muslim girl went to

court to say she shouldn't have to go to swimming classes and the court

ruled against her. She said she should be allowed to have separate

gender classes as well. You can understand why people are offended

by that. You come to Germany and Germany is opened its arms to you

know you are saying the school system has two adjust its entire

model to accommodate your values. The court said no. Is not right. I

think it is slightly depressing with Angela Merkel because she's the best

hope of protecting things I hold quite dear Bush is the ultra

pragmatism whole of Europe and she was to send signals before the

election. This week we'll also had a new report, it integration. It is

very interesting that they have all this talk endlessly about the move

Trinity. In that report it is a very key statistic that actually 89% of

Great Britain seem to get on very well with little liquidity. --

Muslim committee. -- get on very well with their community. That is

up from 80%. William Ewart Gladstone was writing pamphlets about

Catholics coming here and not integrating and winning funny close.

We had to buy the Jewish community and one of the things they did was

introduced the national dish of fish and chips with fried fish. It is one

committee been targeted again and again and nothing that is a strain

of Islamophobia. I think with the Casey report we have me of London.

-- Lord Mayor of London. He happens to be from a Muslim background and

this was suggested the campaigners were somehow dangerous and London is

absolutely rejected that. They did well and we have a Spanish woman as

the Paris Mayor. The secular system in France is quite unique that it

does not target religion in particular. It targets all religion.

Politicians target one religion. The war against the Catholic Church 100

years ago was far more ferocious and I think good for the French public

at the time because it was a question of growing up. Growing up

for the state and to cut the umbilical cord with the church,

which was a wonderful thing to happen. Secularism is a neutrality.

It does not recognise any religion that protects them all. We tend to

forget that. That is the core of secularism, the French way. We are

going to have to leave it there. You can comment on the programme

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