03/12/2016 Dateline London


03/12/2016

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Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

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Britain, Brexit and having your cake and eating it.

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Whether divisions in the quality of our schools contribute

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to political divisions including Brexit.

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And, hail to the chief - but has the impending Trump

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presidency given permission for some to use sexist, misogynistic,

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My guests today are Nesrine Malik, who is a Sudanese writer,

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Michael Goldfarb of politico.com, Rashmee Lall of The National

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and Michael Gove who is a Conservative MP and columnist

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Brexit first, and such is the thirst for any clues about what it might

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mean that handwritten notes photographed in the hands of some

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hapless political aide were treated this week as the Rosetta Stone,

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a guide to the government's negotiations.

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Have your cake and eat it, it said, but whose cake?

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And how much does the public, press and parliament really need

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to know about the road to Brexit when formal negotiations

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As a journalist, this is the biggest story around in Britain and as you

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were in government you know governments need to keep their cards

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close to their chest. I'm a ferocious to find out what's going

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on, but speaking as someone who was in government I know it's quite

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right to play your cards close to your chest. Into that divide is a

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furious speculation. What we saw this week whether scribbled notes of

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a researcher and that might affect some of her own thoughts or what was

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asked. It was not an authorised government document, just a series

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of marginalised notes from an edge visual court in the crossfire and it

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would be wrong to overinterpret what was written as though it were the

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Rosetta stone unlocking the key to Brexit. Nature a pause back you and

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journalists hate it. Nature hates a vacuum. Boris Johnson says freedom

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of movement might not be such a bad thing and other things that don't

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add up. Either you've got your cards close to your chest or it's a

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shambles is the pressure from outside. Theresa May has a desire

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not to be driven by daily commentary or a weekly lot of public opinion.

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The press will fill the vacuum but in terms of the events that will

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deter -- determine what goes on than all the rest is froth. How did you

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go to the country and ask for something you had no plan for if you

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won? I have a plan and Theresa May has a plan and I suspect they are

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similar. But what is it? We've had months and months since the boat.

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Even people who were foursquare for Brexit working on stalls in Essex 12

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nope... You had no plan! The spirit with which we move out of the UN and

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I agree people want us to get on with it and then there's the nature

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of the plan. Theresa may has been clear... Brexit means wrecks it. The

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speed and pays with which article 50 will be triggered... It's very

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interesting that in the age of information overload we are caught

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between a truism, Brexit, and a proverb, have your cake and eat it,

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but basically spells out the limits of the possible or the impossible.

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That is supposed to be a viable government strategy to allow Britain

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to exit the EU with dignity, and some market access? There are two

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issues. One is the question that people voted on, whether to stay in

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or out, was not a technical question. Therefore, there was no

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technical blueprint. You can't have that in a referendum, can you?

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Broadly it is, is it right or wrong. But it puts people in a difficult

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position because they're in the position of working at the detail

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afterwards so I have some sympathy for people who were pro-Brexit but

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don't have a plan because it is a hugely technical question and people

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were asked to vote on the premise rather than the detail. So I have

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sympathy for the people who are still working it out. However, it

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has been some time and it is not beyond the ability with -- for some

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of the people with the political nice or Ken to come up with simple

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or comforting statements that should give comfort to the press or people

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who voted. Do you think the press works like that? If there were some

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statement about it going well and broadly the plan is we will have

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access to the single market... The next question would be, how do we do

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that? This particular question has a vacuum and many things fill a

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vacuum. People don't know what they're doing, there's bad faith on

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the part of Brexit supporters in Cabinet because they've manipulated

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people into a position they have no idea about. So it's better to argue

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against something you stated than something people are making up.

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Would Article 50 and again in the process brings some clarification?

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There would be some discussion about the courts and what they think

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Parliament's role should be? If you get to know the how of Brexit rather

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than just the what and you can calibrate your hopes and

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expectations with reality because you know you're up against the EU's

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irreducible core, the four freedoms of movement, people, goods, services

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and capital. Then you have British aspirations. We will you be a super

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Singapore? Poorer but happy to be self-reliant? Ritter negates the

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rest of the world? But Britain has to nope. Where does Parliament come

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in this? You've got views and lots of backbenchers have views and views

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about the detail and you have to express that, don't you, otherwise

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you will be elected? The majority of MPs voted to trigger Article 50.

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Notwithstanding the Liberal Democrat view. During those debates people

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will attempt to tease out what the government 's position is, but you

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were right. No matter what the government says, there will be an

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appetite for more. Detailed to pick over and more from journalists

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because it is in our professional DNA we want the maximum amount of

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detail and score runs that are competitors don't have in finding

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out new pieces of information. I've take the point that there are people

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who want to get on with the process but investment is still flowing in

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and growth is still strong. It is not the case that the government's

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lack of ability to satisfy journalistic curiosity is leading to

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economic chaos and a plague of frogs on the street. No frogs on the

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street. That was a comment about amphibians rather than anything

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else. What Thomas Anderson. Maybe he's directing 2016. Remember that

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film where frogs fell out, Magnolia. A brilliant film apart from that.

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Stepping back and leaving aside the press question, a vacuum is a very

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bad thing in a society that has just been shaken absolutely to the core

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by this vote. Surely you know that. It shook the Conservative Party to

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the courts and it has shaken the Labour Party into some kind of odd

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position of silence. A variety of morbid symptoms have appeared. In

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the streets is much more unpleasant. It is incumbent on the government

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after 150 days to actually give us a pretty dam clear steer on what's

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going to happen in March when she says, article 50. Firstly the

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government has responsibility to make sure it gets this big decision

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right. More than that, you're right that there has been a heart

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searching and debate since the boat. It's also the case that the Prime

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Minister enjoys a level of popularity and support in the

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country and president did amongst Western leaders. The idea that

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Britain is in at the brow position with her position at the moment is

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pretty strong. This is the striking thing. The referendum showed or

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reinforced that there's disconnect between expectations of commentators

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and the settled view of the majority of the people in this country who

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not only support Brexit but it is the case that 44% of people support

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and incumbent Prime Minister. These are all red herrings. The economy is

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doing well and Theresa May is enjoying support... This is not the

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question. The question is there's a responsibility incumbent upon those

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at a very traumatising time in this country to at least make an effort

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to give people comfort. Not journalists who are self-interested,

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as you say, or other people but to the people who voted and to those

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who voted to remain who also need comforting. And the insistence on

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secrecy reminds me of when Donald Trump said that the most sought

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offensive should have been a sneak attack.

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The settled view question... There are certain great question that

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society's debates over and over again. If the reverse result had

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happened and it had been 40% the other way 52% the other way I can't

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imagine your good self saying that's the end of the matter, it's settled,

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even for a generation. It is not settled at all and people will use

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whatever process they have two... Let Michael finish. To anticipate.

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The debate will continue but the government has a responsibility to

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make sure the negotiations are conducted in the right way and they

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are substantial. We have to be patient for another couple of months

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until article 50 is triggered and the Parliamentary process is over

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and then we can see. Patients doesn't work for journalists.

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Britain has for decades - centuries - had enormous differences

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in the standard of education available to children

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But Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Schools, Sir Michael Wilshaw,

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pointed to something new this week - that under-performing schools

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in some parts of the north of England may have contributed

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to a sense of alienation which could account

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Two parts to this then - how divided is education

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in Britain according to class, money or geography?

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And, secondly, is there a link to economic under-performance

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When you travel around you see a very divided pattern of education?

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That that's literally true. More than that, when you travel around

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the world you see echoes of the same discontent. In the hours after the

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Brexit result I was reminded strongly of a piece I'd written for

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the Economist about Haiti. They had a headline," the discontented"

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because of the amorphous protests and a general sense of being

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discontented with life, the government, cost of living and

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everything. It was understandable for there. For Britain, the fifth

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largest economy, to think that 17 million people just felt somehow

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that things weren't right. It was the British equivalent of the

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protest in Haiti with burning tyres. Do you see part of the root of this

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and education is complicated, that is one of the things in our country

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that the state does for most people and if it isn't doing it for you

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where you live, you will be very grumpy about your children's future

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and your future, when to you? It goes beyond education. The BBC

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economics editor interviewed the Bank of England chief economist who

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found that income levels and a general sense of disengagement, I

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think he said, socially and economically will drive political

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results. That's what he said. I do feel a connection with education

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because it was really quite start? He is outgoing and can say what he

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thinks but he knows about the education system. One of the first

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things that strikes an outsider when they spend a bit more time in the UK

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is the absolute cultural divide as well and education is part of that.

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Things like accident, diction, the way people speak, their interests.

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There is a divide amongst class and North and South definitely. I think

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education is folded under that because there is a sense that the

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dynamo of political culture, economic son the success of the UK

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in general seems to be in the South. Culturally you see things... Like

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the North is a throwback. A traditional British culture that

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doesn't have relevance in today's age. I think the education aspect is

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interesting but is folded under this quite profound... I'm not sure it's

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immediately fixable, a cultural divide between classes and

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geography. When you drop about Haiti, you could have talked about

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the United States, divided along lines and people angry and looking

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at the electoral Mac there, very divided. And look who he is

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appointed be his secretary of Education. On the one hand, everyone

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wants a uniform standard of high education and attainment and an

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aspiration for it. But when you bring it into the realm of politics

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then it becomes politicised and that's been the story of education

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almost my entire diet -- adult life. It's having a fair shout at the

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future, isn't it? If the state can't provide that it causes problems. It

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has too. I have a daughter who goes to a state secondary school. The

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variance... And not just the variance in quality just within

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London, but the variance in educational philosophy. Michael

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knows about this. You have free schools popping up all over my

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neighbourhood. On the other hand you have parents who say they have to

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stay committed to the old-fashioned state system and they would support

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teachers' unions. And there's so much political to bake it seems like

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the education debate on what should be the curriculum and how we should

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make our children aspire all over the country and not just in London

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is getting lost. You were former Secretary of State for Education,

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there's a difference between people who a degree of choice but they want

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excellence. We want it all, don't we? It's difficult to be objective.

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I was responsible at a governmental level for four and a half years but

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if I can try to be objective I can acknowledge that whilst it has

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improved in some parts of the country, most of all in London, is

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still the case that insignificant parts of the country, often but not

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always poorest areas and those suffering from deindustrialisation,

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it's not good enough. Limited employment opportunities and schools

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which are underperforming in relative terms. To be fair to both

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of my successors, they have tried to ameliorate these problems. Nicky

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Morgan introduced something to try to ensure our best teachers went to

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some of the most challenging areas and just Dean has invested money

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into some of the worst performing areas to see if we can learn from

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transformation of change. It's a constant battle because the other

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thing we've had this week is the publication of international league

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tables for science and maths. England has improved but not as far

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as other nations. In relative terms we still have a long way to go to

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catch up with the educational superpowers. That is a very

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interesting point, isn't it? We pride ourselves in many ways about

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the Nobel Prize for Cambridge University, but some of our children

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are leaving school unfortunately with almost no qualifications and

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that makes them unemployable? Michael Gove will probably be able

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to do speak better about this, but it's the relentless attempt to meet

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standards that is now subsuming the attempt to give people an education.

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Reading, writing and arithmetic, what's wrong with just teaching

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that? Was probably more relevant coming back to your question to

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Michael about giving us a fair crack in education, I don't think you do

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in this country even if you do have a competitive education because of

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the institutionalised issues with class and social mobility. It is

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chicken and egg. If you solve those issues they'll be more investment in

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education in poorer areas because they will be part of those

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establishments, the poorer people. One of our guests this week,

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Nesrine, speculated whether... presidency, sections

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of the media have, in her words, "detoxified" racist, misogynistic,

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anti-Semitic and sexist speech to such an extent that it has almost

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become the new normal. Why, for example, do some speak

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of the far or extremist right as the "alt-right" as if it

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were a cool new trend? I think so but it is case-by-case.

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The New York Times ran along profile of Steve Bannon, special adviser now

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to the President elect, and he's the head of the so-called "alt-right"

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news site. It completely soft pedalled what it means to give a

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platform, which is what he has done, for anti-Semitic speech, racist

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speech and grotesquely misogynist speech, so that in that one

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instance, I think you're right, broadly it's such a new phenomenon.

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The speech that Donald Trump wrote... I think he paid that I

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convinced a lot of people to vote for him with this, is not uncommon

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and people always complain about politically correct speech and there

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is a reaction to that. But behind that other really dangerous racists

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and anti-Semites and it makes it harder when you say "alt-right" to

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say a clear thing, which is people who use racial division as a key

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tool in their tool box for electoral success have to be considered, I

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think, to be neofascist. If you say "alt-right" a kind of sanitises

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them. What do you make of it? Would you write someone is an "alt-right"

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commentator? No because it covers too many phenomena. You have a new

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generation of hipster Nazis, essentially. People who use the

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Internet and cluster under a pit -- my particular policy Institute,

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people who greeted the presidency -- new presidency with, hail, Trump!

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People repackage it. Then there are Ballmer -- broader group of people

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who are right-wing and in some cases filed and in some cases misogynistic

:22:19.:22:23.

who are not Nazis. Either they are people whose speech I deplore but

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who are not in the same bracket. There are also others who are

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provocative heirs, who tried to make us think again and who are in the

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tradition of 18th-century satirists. They are provocatives. That is

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interesting. You have to be careful about words. At the weekend, the

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weekend after his election victory, the Holocaust Memorial Busi in

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Washington was so worried about the miasma of hate that was suddenly or

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appeared to be engulfing discourse that they pointed out and they

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reminded the world that the Holocaust didn't start with killings

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but words. That's fine. I also think we've got to be careful about

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overdoing the outrage. We should be watchful, of course, but we should

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wait to see what the trap administration, if and when they

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actually move to undermine civil rights. Constitutional freedoms and

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the natural rights for black Americans, visually distinct

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immigrants and so on. Let us not quite what to fun. I will tell you

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why. Charlie Sykes who is a conservative Republican radio talk

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show host in Milwaukee and he runs a talk who which is very popular, and

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he explained why his fellow Republicans seemed not to care when

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their candidate was saying these obviously racist and bigoted things.

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He said that Republicans are constantly denounced as racists. It

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goes back to Ronald Reagan, W Bush, and Mitt Romney and everybody and

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the word loses impact. I get think we need to wait to see racism being

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enacted to be worried. These things get absorbed into the mainstream and

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supplemented into art public consciousness -- supplemented --

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sublimated. This is the mood music and there are sourced it is being

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painted on walls in Brooklyn, children are being told they can't

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sit at certain tables because they are Mexican. These are things

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happening today whether he and accent personally or not. I think a

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psychologist would call it, to give it permission. There is a spectrum

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and it gives permission for people to save things that they would not

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have said publicly in the past. That is the secret, publicly. One of the

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images, to wikis ago he was interviewing people at his country

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club in New Jersey and I thought it was perfect because he talks like

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the guys who prop up the bar at the 19th hole, shall we say. He's from

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Queens. He is bridge and tunnel, not really from Manhattan. We are

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getting to the classes amongst billionaires in Manhattan! Look,

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it's the permission to bring it into the public... So frightening and

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what frightens and people is that no president or presidential candidate

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has done this. We are out of time. That's it for Dateline

:25:58.:26:00.

London for this week. You can comment on the programme

:26:01.:26:02.

on Twitter @gavinesler We're back next week

:26:03.:26:04.

at the same time. Make a date

:26:05.:26:07.

with Dateline London.

:26:08.:26:10.

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