Browse content similar to 15/04/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This week we learnt three things from President Trump. | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
That he is prepared to wield a global stick, to be precise | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
the 'mother of all sticks', that Nato isn't obsolete, | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
and that the United States needs to condemn China a little less | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
and hug it a little more, not least to help deal with a little | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
And, after this weekend's massive show of military might by Pyongyang | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
and that regime's bellicose posturing, how should we interpret | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
President Trump's words: "the problem will be taken care of"? | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
With me to help dissect Donald Trump's thinking and, later, | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
to talk about another President, Mr Erdogan of Turkey, are: | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Abdel Bari Atwan, who writes on Arab affairs. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
Henry Chu, who's international editor of Variety magazine. | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
The political commentator Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
And the Russian broadcaster Alexander Nekrassov. | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
What an extraordinary weekend. Henry, what is the normal trump | :01:09. | :01:24. | |
doctrine of foreign policy? I don't think any of us knows if there is | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
any coherent policy going on, it cannot be expressed in 140 | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
characters. That is how this man governs. He will say in a news | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
conference that Russia US relations are at an all-time low, then tweets | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
that there will be everlasting peace. He told us health care would | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
be replaced by something great. We cannot divine anything from the | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
policy of the last week or so. I think his own attention span is | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
actually fairly limited. He flip-flops, although he would call | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
it a reversal. He is also going to be tied in times of improving | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
relations with Russia by the domestic political scene in the US. | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
We have people in our legislature in Congress and Senate who are on both | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
sides of the aisle, quite implacably opposed to Russia, or feel this is a | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
destabilising force. There are also his own woes of being investigated, | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
people in his administration being too closely tied to Russia before | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
entering and during the election campaign. He has to tread carefully. | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
As we have seen, it is impossible to actually figure out what an | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
articulated policy from him is because he does not speak that way. | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
What are they saying in Moscow after Rex Tillerson 's visit, after all | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
these other events, weapons, Syria, concerns about North Korea? What are | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
they saying about trump? How do they perceive him? First of all, I think | :02:50. | :03:00. | |
trump is sounding erratic. He inherited a mess from Obama. Let's | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
put it this way. Obama did not deal with Syria. He did not deal with | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
North Korea. He has forgotten about that. He was more preoccupied with | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
sending drones. In Russia, the understanding is that tramples under | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
huge pressure in America from all over the place. For his comments | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
about Russia during the election campaign. There is a bit of sympathy | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
for him, almost? Sympathy on the one hand, on the other hand, he did make | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
some kind of statements. I don't think the Russians realise that it | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
is not going to be a friendship. Love and kisses, and so on. He has | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
stuff to deal with because he is unpredictable. That is true. -- he | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
is tough to deal with. President Putin saw him, there was some debate | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
over the weekend over whether he would. Jasmine, do you have an idea | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
in your mind of what Trump was trying to achieve? No. What is so | :04:07. | :04:14. | |
confusing is that with the Syrian bomb, so many of us, millions, | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
billions, felt this carbuncle of Syria over seven years. Growing and | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
growing on the face of the Earth. In a way, you woke up to this and felt | :04:24. | :04:33. | |
the boil had been advanced. We felt this temporary relief. -- the boil | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
had been lanced. But Henry is right, he is a maverick. At the moment it | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
feels he is playing some kind of computer game, getting a real thrill | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
out of the big bangs and flashes. On the other hand, I think Putin, in my | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
view, is one of the most calculating and problematic leaders we have | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
today. Particularly... And he's been around a long time, 17 years. He is | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
smarter than Trump in some ways. Part of me also worries, and | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
apologies if this sounds mad. But this investigation into the Trump | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
election and the relationship between Russia and Trump's campaign | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
team, is being seriously investigated. I am wondering whether | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
there is this plot within a plot within a plot to make us think now | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
that there won't be any hugs and kisses. I'm very confused about | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
where we are going. Trump is a maverick and that to me is the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
biggest enjoyable. The Syria conundrum which is at the heart of | :05:40. | :05:50. | |
this debate. -- the biggest danger. Unlike President Obama, Trump | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
dropped a bomb and retaliated. In terms of his approach to Syria, will | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
we now see something of a sustained engagement? Will that do anything to | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
make the peace talks in Geneva go anywhere? I believe these Tomahawk | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
missile strikes killed completely the peace process in Syria. I cannot | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
see this peace process reignited after these Tomahawk missiles. | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
Secondly, I believe that coordination between Russia and the | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
US is coming back after the Foreign Secretary went to Moscow. Rex | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
Tillerson? Yes. I believe there are secret agreements. They told us they | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
were disagreeing, but in fact, some of this is theatre. Putin received | :06:50. | :06:58. | |
Rex Tillerson. They reignited their coordination, military coordination | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
and cooperation between the two superpower in Syria. Should that be | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
cause for optimism? At this point only the tiniest steps are being | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
taken and can be considered improvements. We do not want | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
deterioration and even at the height of the Cold War we had summits | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
between residents and ways to try to ameliorate the relationship. I think | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
this is a good thing, you do want engagement, you don't want a freeze | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
on relations. But I don't hold out any great optimism that these two | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
powers are actually coming together or even really making deals. If they | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
do come together it reminds me of the First World War, where they | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
coughed up a whole continent remember, between them. If they | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
think they can carve up the world between them, it's not good news for | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
the world. -- carved up a whole continent. To ignite a war between | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
the two superpowers, what are we achieving here? I believe | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
coordination is the best way. They manage to reach some sort of | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
understanding. That is why President Putin accepted the idea of meeting | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
to listen, and I believe what we have seen is completely different, | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
what they agreed upon. -- of meeting Rex Tillerson. The Tomahawk missiles | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
did not solve any problems but created more. It did not actually | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
topple Bashar al-Assad of Syria. It didn't change much. I'm surprised | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
some people are saying the American policy toward Syria has changed. It | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
has not. It is exactly the same. Trump and his administration do not | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
want to be involved in Syria, they are happy to see Putin deal with | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
Isis in Syria. In addition to Syria and Afghanistan we had the attack | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
this week, US special forces also had issues in Yemen in the early | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
days of his presidency. Trump is also attempting a bit of what used | :09:03. | :09:03. | |
to be called gunboat diplomacy. The problem of Pyongyang has, | :09:04. | :09:12. | |
the President admitted, forced him to re-evaluate his | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
attitude to China. A currency manipulating, | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
US-job destroying rival He's not the only one | :09:17. | :09:17. | |
courting Beijing, though. On Friday, the Russian | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
foreign ministry let it be known that Sergei Lavrov, | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
the boss there had been on the telephone with Wang Yi, | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
his Chinese opposite number, In terms of the North Korea problem, | :09:26. | :09:40. | |
do you think both Moscow and Washington are overoptimistic about | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
the amount of influence that China can bring to bear on North Korea? | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
First of all I think the international community, whatever it | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
is now, should hang its head in shame over North Korea. Nothing was | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
done. The world was clinging to these resolutions of the Security | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
Council, which don't work, just like they don't work in the | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sticking to them as if this was, | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
like a bible. No it's not. I think Trump, in a sense, is stirring up | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
this. Suddenly China is waking up. Thinking, we need to do something. | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
Russia, which has had to have some really active policy, is waking up | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
as well. In a sense it is dangerous, what they are doing, but it has | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
woken up the world to the problem. Something needs to be done. It | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
isn't. I think one of the most terrible things that has happened is | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
the way the UN has been sidelined, and actually the reason it does not | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
work well is because members of the Security Council, the big thugs of | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
the Security Council, refused to do the moral thing and they have | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
refused it over Israel and refused it over Syria. The point is this: I | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
am really worried that we are talking here in terms of the big | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
powers now. OK, China, the ones who have the weaponry. Superpowers. | :11:06. | :11:15. | |
Actually, what happens then to the Muslim countries and the gorilla | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
warfare that is actually now a global guerrilla warfare? Have they | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
not learned anything from Vietnam's, that big bombs and big politics do | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
not destroy a determined gorilla army? I am really surprised by Trump | :11:28. | :11:38. | |
and these problems, he is a warmonger. His popularity is going | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
down in his own country. He is changing his mind every day. He is | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
not consistent at all. He has no strategy, nothing, but to throw | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
bombs. He throws missiles, Syria, the failed state, the mother of all | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
bombs in Afghanistan. Those people who cannot respond. We do not know | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
how many civilians we have killed. Do we think that North Korea could | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
respond? That's the problem. I wish North Korea would respond. No! We | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
have had enough of this warmongering to be honest. Why Trump is going | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
there and threatening this and that, throwing bombs at Muslim people, | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
innocent people, killing them simply because he wants to show he is | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
strong enough. We don't want this warmongering. We want peace and | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
Obama was absolutely correct in his policy. When it comes to North Korea | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
lets not pretend they are not warmongering as well. They are not | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
an innocent party. Do they have the capacity to deliver on the threat? | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
In America, Donald Trump doors. North Korea is building up its | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
arsenal and it is certainly capable of hitting American allies, | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
particularly soul and Japan. It is cause for concern. This maverick | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
quality of Donald Trump, his unpredictable of is reaping good | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
results because it keeps the world its toes. I'm not saying I | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
subscribed to that, but there is this line of thought. The problem is | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
you have two mavericks now, Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump. When you | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
have two in this expose of environment, I'm afraid well what | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
can go wrong. And you've got Putin, and remember, Pakistan now has a | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
nuclear weapon. India does too. We will be dead. Israel as well! One of | :13:32. | :13:40. | |
the things that really frightens me is because of this posturing and | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
this maverick dropping bombs, and Russia in Syria, and piranha's role | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
as well, we will get into a third World War without even naming it. -- | :13:52. | :14:03. | |
Iran that. You still believe they provide the stability? Of course. I | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
don't understand this call for getting rid of them. The UN did | :14:10. | :14:17. | |
nothing about North Korea for decades. In terms of now... In any | :14:18. | :14:26. | |
part of the world. Let's not forget, that this North Korean so-called | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
military potential is a village. Nobody is going to fight for Kim | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
Jong-un in North Korea. If they realise that the threat is real of | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
an attack, they will run. How serious is the suggestion that China | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
can rein in North Korea? This is the other interesting point. Moscow and | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
Washington seemed to assume that, London suddenly thinks China has | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
that degree of employees. Does it? I think it has a certain amount of | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
luggage. The historic ties between China and North Korea are described | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
in the Beijing has lips and teeth. Its actual ability now, especially | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
with Kim Jong-un who was a lot more unstable than his grandfather, has, | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
gated things. You have Donald Trump being schooled by the Chinese | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
president after ten minutes, realising it is not just a matter of | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
China ordering North Korea what to do. China does have power when it | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
comes to oil, that is how North Korea keeps its economy going. It is | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
not without luggage but you think China can actually dictate to North | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
Korea is a mistake. I'm not a big fan of the way China is in terms of | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
freedom and so on, but is it not good that China is coming across as | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
the wise old man of this world? It is not going in for this histrionic | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
politics. Which will take us to the edge. We need wise men. We need | :15:52. | :16:02. | |
people... And women! We need wise leaders. Women and men, whoever. We | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
don't need warmongering. We don't need that. But these wise men did | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
not do anything with North Korea for decades. That is the problem. | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
Something has to be done. There is one problem nobody talks about, | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
South Korea. They are provoking North Korea are all the time. Nobody | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
talks about this at all. They have all these manoeuvres on the borders, | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
those propaganda targeted at North Korea. South Korea is a strange | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
country, by the way. It's not this democracy. Maybe that's one for | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
another week. In Ankara this weekend, | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
another President is hoping voters Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
a referendum on whether he should become an executive president, | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
abolishing the post of Prime Minister and, | :16:54. | :16:54. | |
say his critics, removing existing Perhaps surprisingly in a country | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
where he's cowed the opposition, locked up many critics, | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
including journalists, and has been Turkey's dominant | :17:01. | :17:02. | |
political figure for more than a decade, polls suggest | :17:03. | :17:04. | |
the result will be close. Is there a danger he could actually | :17:05. | :17:20. | |
be trumped, that he could lose this boat? It seems we will have more | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
than one Trump! To be honest. -- this vote. This man is actually | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
trying to revive the Ottoman Empire legacy. He wants to be a new sultan. | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
He deposed and he sacked everybody who is opposing him. 100,000, | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
140,000 people sacked from their jobs under the pretext of martial | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
law. The military coup. 50,000 people arrested. Extraordinary | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
figures. 48,000 arrested. Now, he divided the country, the country is | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
completely divided. He is surrounded by enemies. All over, everybody | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
around Turkey is the enemy of Turkey. Iran, Syria, Greece. | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
Romania, Bulgaria. Even Russia are not really at ease with him now | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
because of him... Even the economy of this country, the Erdogan legacy, | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
he was elected simply because he presented himself as a moderate | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
Muslim. A democratic man. A very progressive development, good | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
economy. Now if you look at the situation, he is not democratic, he | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
is arresting journalists in Mozambique, for example, again the | :18:46. | :18:57. | |
economy is going down. Almost 50% of its value. I would like to speak. My | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
turn to speak. Let me finish. I believe, honestly, we do not know | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
what will happen on this referendum. He is already sacking ministers. My | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
turn! I think we have to go back. And look at some of the things and | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
try and understand, one thing is we always used to say in Africa, users | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
lead democracy to get elected. Now we see it happens everywhere. | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
Everywhere. The thing is, when Turkey was a secular democracy, a | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
Muslim country with a secular constitution, it had all these very | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
well-placed safety nets, freedoms, it's one that path went towards the | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
Islamic citation of Turkey. I am a Muslim, I do not want the Islam | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
Association of countries like Turkey. We are using religion to | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
divide people. The so-called Islamists, not Islamists but Muslim | :20:09. | :20:17. | |
state. It's a terrible thing, taking away critics and journalists. If EU | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
had accepted Turkey into the EU club, I think ten years ago, when | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
Obama was asking them, we might be in a different place. Does the | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
prospect of a sultan in Ankara worry Washington? Which is why we haven't | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
seen such a strong condemnation out of the Trump administration or the | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
Obama Administration to this point. Turkey is a member of Nato and has | :20:43. | :20:54. | |
been able walk for the US. This regrettable... They have stayed out | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
of the referendum, they have not made any intimations as to whether | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
they think it is a good idea or bad idea. I think they will just let | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
that one run as it will. What I am afraid of and what we are seeing in | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
Turkey is indeed somebody who is centralising all power in himself, | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
sees enemies around every corner, and the things he was elected to do | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
- foremost, to develop the economy- have gone sour. We have a president | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
who is acting like an executive president already. Let's not pretend | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
he does not hold the power. Russia did its best to have good relations | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
with Turkey. Even after they shot down Russian planes, even after that | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
outrageous, I would say, murder of the Russian ambassador, Russia did | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
not respond in a way I would have responded to be honest with you. Not | :21:52. | :22:02. | |
yet. For the ambassador, that should -- they should have been punished. | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
All the problems Erdogan has of his own making. His foreign policy is a | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
disaster. Such a pivotal position, just because of geography if nothing | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
else. Nato does nothing to influences policy. Does nothing, | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
never said a word about the quashing of freedoms. The journalists. We are | :22:24. | :22:31. | |
very critical of him. Come on. They should have sanctioned them for | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
this. What he is doing, the sanctions should have been used. I | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
think he will get away with anything. For a Russian to start | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
talking about human rights abuses makes me laugh out loud. Why not? | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
The number of prisoners in Russian prisons! Don't compare the two. That | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
might be an argument for another day. In terms of is he loses, what | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
difference will that make? Will that be the beginning of the end for | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
Erdogan? I think he will be more aggressive and he will try to come | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
back after nine months as the constitution says. He could have | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
another referendum, exactly what happened when he lost the election, | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
the majority of parliament, he called for another election and he | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
managed to create a new alliance with nationalists. That's | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
interesting. The secular side in terms of politics almost seems to | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
have given up the ghost. The opposition is in disarray there. | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
Which makes it all the more incredible to me that in the polls, | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
it shows this referendum is close. You would think with the | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
intimidation going on against the no campaign, and the fact that | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
journalists have been purged, the media are completely in the hand of | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
this administration. You would think it would show overwhelming support | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
for his being given these powers. But secularism is such a deep part | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
of Turkish life and history. People really grew up on it. To see their | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
country becoming like Iran, is a terrible shock. This man will be | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
there. He wants a mandate to do everything he wants. If he does not | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
have this mandate, he is going to impose his will on his own people. I | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
believe Turkey will be more divided, and the economy will suffer more. Is | :24:35. | :24:43. | |
the solution therefore, since you say it will be a worse situation if | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
he were to lose, is it better that he wins it? I can't see how that | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
would be a great outcome. It wouldn't change. The man is another | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
sultan, he wants to behave like that. We will know the result by the | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
beginning of the week. That's it for Dateline | :25:00. | :25:00. | |
London for this week - we're back next week | :25:01. | :25:02. | |
at the same time. You can of course comment on the | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
programme on Twitter @BBCShaunLey. Another update on the weather | :25:05. | :25:40. | |
prospects for the rest of the holiday weekend. | :25:41. | :25:41. |