17/06/2017 Dateline London


17/06/2017

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Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

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This week we discuss the fall-out from the British general election,

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turmoil heightened by the man-made tragedy that hit London this

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week, and with Brexit talks about to begin.

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Also we're looking at the protests in Russia which have put hundreds

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My guests this week, Ned Temko, the political commentator

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Annalisa Piras, the Italian filmmaker and broadcaster

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Stefanie Bolzen of Germany's Die welt and the Russian journalist

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The British Prime Minister lost her overall majority

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in the general election and is having to do a deal with MPs

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from Northern Ireland to stay in Downing Street.

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Theresa May was criticised during the election campaign

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for not meeting real people and within a week that

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criticism has resurfaced because of the government response

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An entire residential tower block in London was destroyed

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by fire in one night, but when Theresa May first visited

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the scene she spoke to members of the emergency services,

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All this just before the Brexit talks are due to begin.

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Let's discuss the state of Britain, of British politics.

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Ned, Theresa May, specifically, can she and will she survived this? If

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we had had this conversation a couple of days ago I would have said

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to McCready is, probably, yes. Not least because her main strength is

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that anybody who wants her job within the Conservative Party would

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have to have his or her head examined to want the job under these

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circumstances. You're going into Brexit negotiations which will be at

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least difficult and possibly more than difficult, so there is a

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communal self-interest among Tories in keeping her there for a while.

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What has changed is, as you say, the response or the utter tone deaf

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nature of her response to this fire. It drew on a lot of the criticism

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she attracted during the election campaign and it is utterly

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unpredictable. If she lasts, let's say, a week, I still give her two

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years, but it is all very fluid now and reminds me a little bit of the

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atmosphere on the final days of Maggie Thatcher after the poll tax

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riots. Politics is about a narrative, once your narrative as a

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leader or politician changes, that is a very difficult for to escape.

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But more than anything, her narrative was I am strong and

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stable, instead she is showing to the people of Britain that she is

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not strong, not stable, not even compassionate. She is unable to meet

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the people that have lived through a tragedy and hope them, like Jeremy

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Corbyn did. Not only has she lost the narrative but she is unable to

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provide another one. They might not want a hug, but they clearly want

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answers, people clearly feel that the answers have not been given. The

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overall feeling in London is that the Government is losing control of

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too many things. The Brexit talks are starting on Monday and we have

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no idea, in Brussels they have no idea what the British Government

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wants to achieve in these negotiations. Which is fine because

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the Government has no idea either! Everything has changed because of

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the election, everything is up in the hour. Maybe a softer Brexit. The

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very Eurosceptic Tories in the parliament still dominate talks? At

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the same time, you might think the easy as things go wrong, which is

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show compassion. I was there, I spent the next three days actually

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near the tower, I was there on Thursday morning when she arrived

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and I told the people that the Prime Minister was here and they said,

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where was she, we did not see her, why didn't she come to see us? She

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went again on Friday to try to do it better and it completely went wrong.

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Her argument being that she met firefighters and emergency services.

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It is the easiest thing for such professional people in Downing

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Street, in terms of PR, to stage a visit. What is your reading of that?

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The criticism throughout the election campaign, and then there

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was this, by all accounts, very strong performance in front of her

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own party, we call at the 1922 committee, the committee of

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backbench Conservative MPs, MPs were coming out of that meeting saying,

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my goodness, if she behave that while during the election campaign

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we would not be in this position. They were really bolstered by this.

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There were no lessons learned. That is when she can control the

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situation. The situation out there with people being devastated,

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helpless, hopeless, waiting for news four days and nights in the heat,

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outside, homeless, that is the situation she cannot control and she

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could not handle it, she did not go, she is scared. I do not agree at all

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with the effect of the Grenfell Tower fire on her position.

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Unfortunately her weakness was in dealing with terrorist attacks. She

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was a former Home Secretary. She was actually in charge of dealing with

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terrorism. For six years. The Russians warning the West, and

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Britain as well, for many years after the first Chechen conflict

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started, the dangers of Islamic terrorism spreading quickly. Nobody

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paid any attention, Russia was pilloried and criticised by dealing

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with this threat. This problem basically swept into the West.

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Instead of uniting with Russia in dealing with this threat, because

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Russia was dealing with the threat in the sense that it was banning the

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NGOs that are helping finance terrorist activity, banning

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charities, which prosper here. Look at them, they are collecting money

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from disillusioned people and then fund them into organisations like

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the Muslim Brotherhood. Specifically in the UK? Everywhere across the

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West, it is a major issue. We are seeing that she did not respond,

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and... Well to the attacks. In Manchester, a devastating attack,

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children are blown up. The people who run everything in Manchester the

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next day said they would not tolerate hate crimes. It is a fair

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point, but not at its time. It is offensive to people. The unexpected

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general election, Theresa May and big Conservatives came out with a

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reduced majority, and expected at the beginning. The vote was not to

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do with terrorism, it is people having had enough of austerity?

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Terrorism is a major issue for the West. The West has not been dealing

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with it. Alexander, you say the West should do it the way of Putin and

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they would tackle terrorism? Are you serious? I am serious about adopting

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some of the strategies. You just had a major conflict between Western

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allies, the Arab countries, that have turned against Qatar for

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allegedly supporting terrorism in the West as well. This shows is that

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the Western governments do not have a national security policy which

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works. What they are doing... Italy has not had one single terror

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attack. That is one country. And they are applying a different

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attitude to security which is probably needed. They are an

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exception. It is not an exception. Explain why you feel Italy has

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managed that? I do not feel, it is a fact, Italy is the only major

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European country which has not suffered a set -- suffered a terror

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attack. There are theories why this is happening, one is that because

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Italy has been to the 70s and 80s in dealing with terrorism in a very

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constant daily way, they have found a way of controlling the territory

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which means that possible suspects are identified and removed and even

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deported even before they start becoming radicalised, which is

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different from what they are doing in France and Britain where they

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tend to have a surveillance, you cannot survey people like that

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because there are too many. You need to have something much more

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preventative and... At the start of the process of radicalisation. They

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are afraid of touching them in Britain, that is the problem. Can I

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intervene quickly? In defence of the British security forces and the

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American security forces, it is always difficult in a democracy

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under the rule of law to control terrorism. The miraculous thing, I

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have covered this for a long time, is not how many major terrorist

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attacks that have been since 9/11 but how few. The security forces

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don't get everything right but it is not... This portrait of us are

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hapless inability to deal with terrorism is just not real. We will

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continue to debate the reasons why the Conservatives have reduced

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majority, terrorism may be a factor, but we are where we are, as

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politicians are fond of saying, we are a matter of days away, depending

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on when you're watching bits, from those Brexit talks finally getting

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under way. Stefanie, your reading this? Interestingly, I talked to

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some people yesterday in Brussels, senior officials, the mood in

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Brussels is very conciliatory. The first thing on the agenda is the

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very difficult question of EU citizens' writes, what will happen

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with the 3.5 million European citizens currently living in the UK

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and more than a million on the continent? Who will guarantee their

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rights? From the European perspective it has to be the

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European Court of Justice, from the perspective of Mrs May this is

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non-negotiable. Interestingly, I have not heard anybody in Brussels

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saying loudly that this is a red line, I think what they are saying

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is we need to get this done now, just sit down and negotiate. There

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is an urgency in this, there needs to be a settlement on the money and

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the people as soon as possible because we are already in a state in

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Europe, especially in the UK, that is very dangerous. Up the great

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political News of the week was that both France and Germany have said

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something very important, they have said the door is open if you want to

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do a reflection, a reversal, as they are starting to call it, the door is

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open. This is the key news of this week, because... Is it not wishful

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thinking? If there is a possibility of rethinking again it has to be

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done before the end of the two year process. The window of opportunity

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is very, very small. Once you have dismantled everything there is no

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way you can reopen it. There is a thinking that says, OK, Britain is

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in chaos, they are now calling London Chaos On Thames. It is

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serious on the economic front, it is the slowest growing economy in

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Europe, inflation is rising, prices are rising, investment is going

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away, wages are going down... You are describing France, by the way,

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word for word. France, politically, is the most successful political

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landscape at the moment, OK? Economically, it is a disaster,

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meltdown, it is bankrupt. There is a strong political landscape and a

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strong president, in Britain we have a hung parliament, no majority, a

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leader angering the entire country. In France they have nobody... My

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point is there is a lot of thinking in Europe that we might get very

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fast to appoint in which Britain should show that pragmatism

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sometimes can trump pride. Do you mean not going ahead with leaving

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the EU? There are people inside the EU who have always wanted that, it

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does not mean we will get it. People are expecting Britain to show

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realism. It might be that two years down the line, when the deal is on

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the table and it is clear that it is a disastrous deal because there is

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no way of making Brexit a success, if the deal is really disastrous and

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in the meantime the economy of Britain is crushed, is it wise and

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pragmatic to say to the people do we really want to do this? I think you

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are absolutely right, it is probably impossible, politically, to reverse

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Brexit. But I think a fudge becomes possible for the first time, it

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depends on how the two years of talks go. With respect, Alexander,

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all the polling done about the election so far does not suggest

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this was about terrorism, it suggests it was about the

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disproportionate participation of young people, including young people

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angry and a little bit remorseful, about the Brexit vote. The economy

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is shifting, the political landscape is shifting. You are living in La La

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Land, Britain is one of the strongest economies in the EU. Italy

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is nearly bankrupt. France is in meltdown. Portugal is... Fag God for

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Russia! How can you sit here with straight faces and talk about

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Britain and meltdown? -- thank God for Russia! The money would go down

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at once. The reason why Theresa May is not able to start the process

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properly, she does not want to. The people feel she is reluctant. The

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only way to deal with the EU is to walk away and say if you don't go

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with our terms, we are walking away and you are finished. You are living

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in La La Land, Alexander! The EU is desperate for Britain to stay. Who

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do you speak to in the EU who tells you that? Every single they make,

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please come back! They were saying effectively, hurry up and get on

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with it. The EU is crumbling, financially, it is finished. The EU

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is stronger than a few months ago. They are pumping ?80 billion every

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month into the markets. The ECB, if it stops the quantitative easing...

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This is fake news! Done is take this down that route exhalation Mac

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Stefanie, one way or another, no matter what anyone thinks, what do

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you pick on? Annalisa talks about Chaos On Thames, if we have a

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leadership election later this year if the Conservative Party changes

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its leader, if we have a new British Prime Minister, does that play into

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this? I can only speak for people in

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Germany. They see it as a problematic situation politically

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because as you said, politically reversing Brexit is difficult. With

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big parties, the Tories and Labour, have said, we want Brexit. It has to

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be implemented because it is the will of the people. This is

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democracy. Within the next month, is turning around and saying, it is

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democracy but we're not going to do it, that is a very difficult job to

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do politically. We approach the coming weeks, the beginning of the

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tog Stark you are seeing the first stage might not be so bad because

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you touched on the issue of citizens' rights, but thereafter it

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gets tricky? Yes. The EU has very clear guidelines. The unified on

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this for the time being. The departure than the future framework.

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We have to find an agreement on EU citizens rights. And the Northern

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Irish border. These issues are sensitive. They have only a couple

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of months to sort them out and only start talking about free

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trade. There has to be big political will from both sides to compromise,

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otherwise it will fail. Complicated by the fact that there is not a

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settled view within a very vulnerable British government. There

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is not, but at the same time, they have put out lots of red lines. They

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do not have a strong view but they have lots of red lines. Red lines

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which were posited on a landslide victory and her having a strong

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hand. The position has changed. That is true. We will see what awaits us

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in the coming weeks. Let's turn our attention is to do is continuing

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anti-corruption demonstrations across Russia.

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Hundreds of people have been put in prison.

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President Putin seems determined to stamp out protest -

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but the calls for him to stand down, and for an end to what many see

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as blatant corruption by those in authority continue.

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Alexander, what is going on in your country?

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Well, the protests against corruption, and corruption is an

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issue in Russia, but it is an issue across the world. In India, China,

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everywhere else. The problem is, they deserve a reception that Alexei

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Navalny, who was detained, is some sort of the leader of an opposition,

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which is not really an opposition. It is a tiny group of people. The

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reason why he was detained, that was not mentioned here, what they did,

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they were given official permission to stage a demonstration in a

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specific area of Moscow. He was detained during the protest. No,

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before the protest. Arrows before the demonstration, he announced to

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his supporters, let's hijack a celebration of Russia Day outside

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the Kremlin. What happened, these people infiltrated the celebration.

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It was massive, in the centre of Moscow, children, with their parents

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and grandfathers and grandmothers. They were celebrating this party.

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Suddenly these people appear in between them and started shouting,

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down with Putin, down with corruption. The police had to

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interfere. It was turning into chaos. The interesting thing is, the

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reasonable... A very respected member of the opposition, he

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denounced this. He denounced Alexei Navalny and said, you cannot do

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this, you cannot hijack peaceful manifestations with violent thugs

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and put these people in danger. That man who said that is a critic of

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Putin. We have seen protests all over the country. They pose no

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danger to the regime. Why are hundreds of people in prison? They

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are all out already. Tiny numbers were kept for a day or two. Under

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what charges? There were attacks on police and so on, the usual stuff,

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like when the students rioted here. There was a problem when they put

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200 in prison. You can see from the pictures who they are. They were not

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thugs. Some of them were 17. They have lived all their life under

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Putin. 17 years under par, since 2000. In France, the elected a

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nobody. Nobody knew who years. We have covered that. Compare. They did

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not allow any protests in France. They stated, we have a state of

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emergency. Which you were in favour of, tougher against anti-terrorist.

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Anti-terrorism Alexei Navalny's major point to the people of Russia.

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Alexei Navalny criticises the West for allowing this flood of people

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with alien cultures. That is his words, not mine. Can I come back and

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hijack for a second? This is important. You know what Alexei

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Navalny said about Muslim immigrants coming to Russia. We all know this.

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Let's hear from him. He is also a former Moscow correspondent. He is

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not in a position... How do you know Russia? Russia is different now. I

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believe Putin had nothing to do with the Soviet Union. Let the record

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show, not with the KGB either. One of the wonderful things about

:22:13.:22:14.

discussions like this is how familiar it is too living in the

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Soviet Union for three years, because I will just ask a respectful

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question. Do you think one reason for the size, you say these are

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small demonstrations, might be because there is a proven record,

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and forget this particular demonstration, that if you show

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public opposition to Vladimir Putin, you are almost certain to get

:22:41.:22:44.

arrested, you're likely to suffer economically, you may even lose your

:22:45.:22:49.

life? That is probably a disincentive to public opposition.

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That is a cliche that you as a former correspondent in the Soviet

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Union would say on and on. Times have changed completely in Russia.

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There is an opposition in the newspapers, oligarchs are being sent

:23:04.:23:08.

to prison. Show me a banker in America who went to prison? Why had

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the Russian paper that reported on the Panama Papers, Russian people

:23:15.:23:18.

very close to Putin involved in corruption, why is that paper, the

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editor in chief was fired and it has been bought by an oligarch in

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Russia? So what? You have oligarchs in Europe. If you are critical, you

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will not last long in Russia. What are you telling me? The price in

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every country does what it is told. That may be news for you but that is

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how it is. The BBC is the only one left. If you have an owner like

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Murdoch, you do what he tells you, you do not write wonderful things

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about something that you think about it. There is freedom of the price in

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Britain. Russia is a massive country. You cannot hold it together

:24:02.:24:07.

with the pussyfooting president. It is an enormous country under attack

:24:08.:24:12.

from all sides. What does this mean for next year, for Putin, back to

:24:13.:24:19.

you? I predict Putin will win, one way or another. It is interesting,

:24:20.:24:26.

on one hand uses Alexei Navalny is a nobody. For a nobody, the Russian

:24:27.:24:33.

and Putin personally do try awfully hard, for instance, to prevent him

:24:34.:24:39.

from standing against Putin admixture's election. If he is such

:24:40.:24:43.

an irrelevancy, who cares? You're forgetting one thing. Alexei

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Navalny, in a sense, ye suits the Kremlin. He is keeping those

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oligarchs and those corrupt officials on their toes. Show me one

:24:52.:24:57.

person in America who will be allowed to show a film about a

:24:58.:25:03.

corrupt minister, Senator, and accused him of corruption? Only one?

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You have no one, not a single one. Your papers are quiet. They are

:25:11.:25:14.

saying things that are not really important. Whatever. In a sense,

:25:15.:25:21.

Alexei Navalny sits Putin. Putin will win the election. When Bush was

:25:22.:25:25.

in power, anyway, this is very entertaining. It should be

:25:26.:25:30.

entertaining. It is Saturday. When someone says that freedom of the

:25:31.:25:34.

press in Russia is the same in Britain, that is very funny. It is

:25:35.:25:40.

so outrageous you should just laugh. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

:25:41.:25:45.

Here, I do not see ministers being bashed. An independent journalist

:25:46.:25:52.

was killed in Russia. Regrettably, on that sad reminder, we will have

:25:53.:25:54.

to leave it for this week. Do join us again next week

:25:55.:25:57.

same time same place. Hello. We are seeing a big leap in

:25:58.:26:34.

temperatures compared with yesterday. Temperatures are expected

:26:35.:26:38.

to get to the high 20s in some areas today. Not surprising we are seeing

:26:39.:26:45.

plenty of sunshine, strong sunshine across the southern half of the

:26:46.:26:46.

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