10/06/2017 Dateline London

Thursday was supposed to be May's Day in the British Prime Minister's

plan to strengthen her hand by holding and winning

Instead, she was left calling out "mayday" to a party

in Northern Ireland, asking it to keep her

Conservative Party in power, after her parliamentary majority

As for Jeremy Corbyn, the previously beleaguered leader

of the Labour Party, he lost the election but won

plaudits for his campaign and inspired a new generation

With me to discuss where this leaves British politics,

and the imminent negotiations to get out of Europe, are the biographer

and long-standing contributor to Germany's Die Welt newspaper,

Thomas Kielinger, from Ireland, the writer and broadcaster

Brian O'Connell, Janet Daley, columnist with Britain's Sunday

Telegraph newspaper, and Owen Jones, columnist with The Guardian

Welcome to you all. Janet Daley, where did it go wrong? It was the

worst campaign that I have ever seen, having lived in this country

for 50 years. Absolutely appalling. The more interesting phenomenon,

because that one has been discussed endlessly, is the consequences for

the Labour Party, which at least three quarters of its MPs detest

Jeremy Corbyn or his policies at any rate and are stuck with him for the

indefinite future as leader. The second most devastated woman in the

country must be a vet Cooper, who really thought that her part of the

party was going to reclaim its birth right -- Yvette Cooper. What happens

now with the Tories is almost impossible to call. There are a lot

of rumours that Theresa May is going to be removed over the summer. I

think that is actually quite likely, even though most of my conservative

contacts, senior Tories that I have spoken to, do not think that would

be a good deal idea. They think they need to get through with a pretence

of stability and it would just cause more uncertainty and doubt if she

was to be replaced. The trouble is, it is stability without strength.

Stability without credibility. Going into the Brexit negotiations with a

leader who has been so register and has lost all credibility is very

serious. What the Remain faction, who have turned this into a second

referendum on the EU and voted tactically to destabilise her, have

succeeded in doing is creating the conditions for the worst possible

deal that Britain can get in the EU negotiations, and as a result, they

have devastated the future of all those young people who are now

voting so enthusiastically for Corbyn because the economic future

looks bleak. Owen Jones, I want to pick up on this question of young

people. I was in Leeds and in one constituency alone they had

registered 13,000 new voters. There is a real sense that this idea that

the Young do not vote and are not motivated was blown apart by this

election. I suppose the question is what happens to that now and how

sustainable is it that it can still be inspired. I think the enthusiasm

of those young people cannot be understated. What we have had for

the last few years is when politics intrudes in their lives it is not

good. The scrapping of the education maintenance allowance, the small

amount of money for those working class and aspirational children who

stayed on at school. The scrapping of youth services across the

country. A housing service that disproportionately affect them. The

lack of secure jobs. I could go on. Young people over the last few years

have had a hammering. And the cartilage and politicians over and

over again is that we can do what we want when it comes to people because

they are never going to vote. They will never bite back. What we saw

this week was the young people fighting back and voting for a party

which had an inspiring vision for them and for millions of people

across the country, with policies that have been produced and vilified

and ignored by most of the media in this country, that by asking those

at the top of society to pay a bit more money to invest in our

services, in education, to get rid of student debt. And yet we still

have a Conservative Government. Let's be clear about what happened.

Labour had the biggest increase in its share of the vote, not since

Tony Blair in 1997, since Clement Attlee. There was the small issue of

World War II at the time. This time round, Labour started from a very

low base. Its achievement, where Kensington in London is now a hotbed

of socialism. Canterbury, which has been a Conservative seat since the

19th century. But why dismiss people based on their age? It is not just

young voters. Obviously, there are 40 million people under 25. The

problem is that a win is right. 40% of the vote is a huge chunk. The

problem is under the first past the post system, that does not

necessarily transfer into seats. That is why there is no Ukip around

any more. The Conservatives got a higher proportion than that. They

got a higher proportion than Margaret Thatcher, which won her

famous landslide. So the smaller parties collapsed, this is why this

has happened. I really want to make a point about the vision. I think

this is a repudiation clearly of anything it is of the politics of

focus group and message control and public relations and advertising

slogans. This is finally a return to ideological politics, which is

probably a healthy thing. But the cynicism of that period, when every

political message had to be manipulated and controlled and it

was all about the manipulation of public opinion, that was sickening.

And I think now we really have seen a repudiation of that. And was that

what the Conservatives were guilty of? Yes, I am afraid so. Thomas, you

have been watching elections in this country for a very long time. What

did you make of it? Well, I think I agree with the Janet that this was

the worst I have seen and it is more at the astonishing because when

Theresa May became Prime Minister, when she was put in that position,

she went outside and give her famous speech which sounded like a great

empathy for the working people and so forth. I said, hey, this is

exactly what we need to hear. She needs to address yourself to the

woefully inadequate situation domestically, and then afterwards

she ran away and it was nothing but Brexit. I think she totally left the

agenda of what is wrong with Britain to the hands of Jeremy Corbyn and

that gave him an absolute Leeds in people's mind. His vision is to

raise more money and spend more money. But it destroys the jobs of

just the people you are in sympathy with. The increasing corporation

tax. It is just the huge corporations that everybody hates,

but the little companies that make jobs. What Labour is arguing for is

to go back to the level of corporation tax that we had in 2011.

And to go to the level of the US, which is not known as a hotbed of

socialism, I can tell you that. The Tories started with everything

stacked in their favour. No Prime Minister has had that much political

traction. She had twice the support according to the polls of Labour, a

much higher opinion rating. She had the backing Tory press, whose role

in this election was despicable, to smear Labour, and the people

rejected it, which I think is worth noting. But not just that. It is

that point and it makes about the popular vote. The Ukip vote was

always going to inflate the Tory vote, because it collapsed. But what

we saw in this election, this is what I think is so interesting, the

most radical Labour leader in history got 40% of the vote in 2017,

even though all the odds were stacked against him, and what I

think that shows, and I think we are now at a turning point which we have

seen in other countries. We have seen Bernie Sanders in the US and

new parties in Spain. In the 1970s, the post-war consensus of social

democracy crumbled and collapsed. I think we are seeing that consensus,

that Margaret Thatcher established in 1979, is beginning to crumble and

I think there is every chance next few years of a Labour Government

coming to power which will transform this country in just the way

Margaret Thatcher and Clement Attlee before it transformed Britain. What

this election contest reminded me of was the spirit of Michael foot, and

he was the most radical leader, not Jeremy Corbyn, was revived, and

without the countervailing voice of Margaret Thatcher. Nobody was doing

the critique. Nobody was saying what is wrong with this position. So

apart from attacking him personally. His history was too extreme in their

view. They did not take on the argument at all. Let's talk about

the question of where this takes us. The next question is a deal, some

sort of arrangement with the Democratic Unionist Party in

Northern Ireland. A lot of people watching in this country and around

the world won't really know very much about the DUP. The only thing

they might remember is Ian Paisley Junior. As the founder of the DUP.

But it is not just the party of protest any more. It is the party

that will be in Government. Yes, it started off as a protest movement in

the early 70s. And it was based around the free Presbyterian Church,

which Ian Paisley founded and also the party. It is deeply

conservative. And as we have seen with what Ruth Davidson is saying in

Scotland's is they are socially conservative, there will be issues

around marriage equality, abortion as well. But if you put those to one

side for a moment, because they are the ones making the headlines, the

single most important thing for the DUP is the maintenance of the union

with Britain. They are Brexiteer 's, but they want a soft border because

a lot of their trade, particularly in food and agriculture, that kind

of thing, goes north and south across the border. So they are in

this strange position where they are strong Brexiteer is, but they want

the open border. There is one thing to remember about them as well.

There was a suggestion of having a special status for Northern Ireland,

which Sinn Fein actually pushed quite strongly. The British

Government have ruled that out. The Irish Government certainly haven't

argued for it either. It is unlikely to happen. But the reason the DUP

will put this on their list of asks, the special status being one foot in

the single market, one foot out, is because most of their trade is

actually with the rest of the UK. We do need to be clear. The British

people need to understand what the situation they're about two faces. A

Prime Minister with no authority whatsoever, a Conservative Party

humiliated and now facing huge division, is now going to be held

over the barrel by the most extreme party in the House of Commons. The

Democratic Unionist Party, which lets just be very clear, we talk

about social conservatives, it is anti-LGB T Wright, anti-woman's

rights, they oppose the right of women to choose, and equally they

are backed by loyalist terrorists. They are now going to be... Have a

huge influence. Just to clarify that, they say they are backed by

them, but they have no formal link. They are enthusiastically supported

by loyalist paramilitaries. That is just an objective fact. You can see

the loyalist murals all over Belfast. What this does is threaten

the Northern Ireland peace process, would you have one sector of a party

which now has disproportionate influence over the Westminster

Government. We have just had Ruth Davidson assuring us from Theresa

May that this will not imperil LGB T writes, but the one thing we know

about Theresa May is that you cannot trust a single thing she says

because the one thing she has done is consistently U-turn. It is very

worrying when you have a political party which is sore extreme on

birdie-mac and climate change and in terms of the Northern Ireland

political process. From your point of view as a Corbyn supporter, I

would not want too much about terrorists and I would also not go

on too much about social prejudices. The people who refer to me as the

Zionist due Janet Daley every time I attack Jeremy Corbyn is not a pretty

picture. There is left wing bigotry and there is right-wing bigotry. Do

you want to pick up on this question about whether it will be extremist

in its approach. A lot of the things we are talking about our deferred

issues. They have a veto on the issue of marriage equality and so

on. There are 18 Westminster seats in Northern Ireland. The DUP won ten

of them this time around. I mean, you talk about democracy. That is

democracy. They got elected. I don't see what the issue is there. They

are as entitled as any other party sitting in the House of Commons to

form any kind of alliance they choose. And I'd say? I am entitled

obviously and those of us who are horrified by the prospect of an

electoral alliance, a parliamentary Government being formed with the

support of that party, had every right to speak out. That party

opposes the basic civil rights of me as a gay man. It would be absurd if

I did not express that. I am not suggesting you shouldn't. Of course,

the DUP can do what they want but British citizens have every right to

speak out. They are the largest single party in Northern Ireland.

Let's hear from Thomas. I know their position and they are not very

attractive at all. But they are not going to be influential in informing

of social policy in Great Britain as a whole. There is not equal marriage

in Northern Ireland. But that will not impinge on the legislation. One

of the assurances Ruth Davidson was trying to get from the Prime

Minister was that this would not impede her supporting for example

the extension of birdie-mac in Northern Ireland. But in any case,

as I have said. -- LGBT rights. The DUP or not going into this alliance

to start rolling back equal marriage in Scotland or England. The DUP are

going into this alliance to ensure that, for example, farmers in

Northern Ireland, who will be very damaged by Brexit, suddenly get more

money from the UK Treasury to make up for that. This is about money,

jobs, livelihoods. When you talk about the DUP social agenda, one of

the dangers... You are talking about their social agenda. This is not

about the social agenda. It is about the economic agenda. If we had a

vote on abortion in the House of Commons, then obviously there are

implications. That is a free vote. We know they are a party which

opposes birdie-mac and that will have a huge influence over

Government. -- LGBT rights. People watching will wonder why Brexit is

such an important issue in the coming months that Sinn Fein has

done so well in elections that it is happy to sit in the Northern Ireland

power-sharing agreement, why its MPs will not take their seats, even in

this election were actually they could have quite a lot of influence

at Westminster at a time when that could affect things. It is simply

because Sinn Fein as a Republican party have a long-standing

abstention is policy. It is not something I understand or

necessarily agree with. Gerry Adams was asked several times in the last

couple of days, now you have increased your representation, why,

and he has ruled it out. On Sinn Fein, I think one thing is

significant. There is no power-sharing executive and there

has not been for some time in Northern Ireland. It broke down for

reasons we do not need to go into right now. The British Government in

whatever talk school or now after the election. They were suspended

during the election. It is supposed to be an almost broke. This alliance

with the DUP will make that a little more difficult in any future talks

with the British Government sort of refereeing whoever the Secretary of

State for Northern Ireland maybe. In the middle. While the DUP are in an

alliance, even at a loose electoral alliance. That is the biggest

paradox in my eyes. People who are imported there will now be part of

the Government. And it will make it more difficult to re-establish

power-sharing in Northern Ireland, which is important or Northern

Ireland right now. That is an interesting point you made about the

economic agenda and the concerns about jobs and employment and so on

because that is something that was almost completely missing from this

discussion and one of the reasons why I really despise Corbyn and

Labour as an next lefty myself is that it is now a completely

bourgeois phenomenon. This is now a monopoly, monopolised by urban

professionals and middle-class university students, and there has

been scarcely a word said about the tragedy, the post-industrial

tragedy, of working class communities in this country. It is

now dead, that kind of life, a community built around a local

industry, steelworks or manufacturing or coal mining. That

is gone. We have lost a generation. And those are the truly forgotten

people and nobody on either side of the fence and it is particularly

culpable on Labour's part has had a word to say about this. There is no

easy solution, but they might have had something to say to the old

industrial proletariat. I think that is a very interesting point.

Obviously, 40% of the publishing voted for Labour over that and are

not middle-class professionals and university students. This will not

work unless I can say... Because when you speak I do not interrupted.

I will try to speak and then you can come back and then we will have a

discussion. What we saw in many ex-industrial areas of Britain is

those who previously voted for Ukip did not just vote for the

Conservatives as predicted but also voted for the Labour Party as well

and that includes many of those ex-industrial workers. What Labour

have argued in this election is for a genuine Living Wage to be

introduced. If you haven't got a job! There we go again. On the basis

that most people in property are in work. And the second thing is an

active industrial strategy, learning from countries such as Germany,

which haven't had the approach of letting the market decide and

industries will disappear and then something else will rise, but

instead have intervened, for example supporting local jobs. Equally, a

house-building programme, which Labour have committed to, will also

create huge numbers of jobs in construction. Your right to raise

that. The Tories have nothing to say on that. How is it that Jeremy

Corbyn can ask Theresa May to stand aside so he can form a Government?

He lost the election. The figures simply don't add up. Unless you want

your DUP, who you like so much, to join him. I don't like the DUP. How

is Jeremy Corbyn going to form a Government without the DUP? I think

the odds are that the Labour Government... Who do I speak to you?

There are two people here. I can only respond to one point at a time.

I think what Labour are doing is a very clever and canny political ploy

to expose the fact that Theresa May humiliatingly lost this election and

now has a coalition of chaos. Jeremy Corbyn lost this election. What I

think will happen... I want to bring in Thomas to talk about the other

issue, which is the Brexit negotiations. Does this result in

any way change the landscape models those in positions? Well, I wonder

what the will of the people really is? Theresa May keeps quoting the

will of the people and someone to write a novel about 50 shades of

Brexit. 50 is enough. And so in a sense, we have to wait and see. We

cannot legislate about what is going to happen. We cannot speculate. We

have to wait for the negotiations. Will they be pleased are

disappointed with the outcome, do you think? I think they will be

pretty neutral, on balance. This is too serious a matter to be sort of

hoisted on what you prefer or what you do not prefer. You have to be

professional. You have to get down and work out a deal which is also

accommodating for Europeans and so forth. And I think this result will

influence the direction of the nature of the negotiations. Ask you,

Janet, about something interesting which came up this morning. I had a

Tory MP on the channel only a couple of hours ago saying what this proves

is that hard Brexit is dead. This is interesting because Conservative MPs

will now start to argue in terms of Brexit, then the dental factionalism

in the Government side is quite serious. I think the Tories are

pretty ruthlessly disciplined and I think that will be brought under

control, that kind of talk. But that is neither here nor there. The real

issue remains that there is serious disagreement within the party and

serious disagreement even among Conservative voters. When I said

that they use it as a way of having a second referendum, there were an

awful lot of dedicated voters who voted tactically deliberately to

sabotage the Government's attempts because they were convinced that it

would go for hard Brexit and partly because they hoped to destabilise

the situation so much that they hope they would have to go away and that

is just not political possible. It is with the situation of Theresa May

being not very credible as a Brexiteer. Unfolding the flag. The

biggest U-turn is interning from a quiet remain to a Brexiteer. She was

always able to remain, but that makes it even more suspicious. If

she is not frank about these things. I don't see why EU leaders in any

sense can take Theresa May seriously after this. Clearly, she got this

election on a false premise meaning that the more seats she got would

strengthen her hands. EU governments have no interest whatsoever in the

scale of her majority. They are interested in just doing the deal

with Britain. They want to revellers sitting in the seat across the table

from them. Can I just finished that point? EU governments are

accountable to their own electorates. Their own voters. That

is what they are interested in. What Britain does is to Britain. In terms

of that, we have seen that she has had a shambolic campaign. She is now

drastically weakened her own authority and she now has two sets

of people, well, three sets. She has the DUP on the one hand, she has

hard-core right-wing Brexit supporters, and she also has a

liberal remain faction like Nicky Morgan. And the problem is, before

she struggled to get legislation through, do you remember national

insurance when she tried to do a U-turn on that but she did not have

a majority. How is she going to get anything through when she has three

completely different factions? I will give you all one last word. How

long has Theresa May got? At least until the finalisation of the first

negotiations on Brexit. A year. Maybe a year. She has no authority.

She will not last until the end of this year. Thank you all very much.

A real pleasure to have you here. What a fascinating week in politics.

We will be back with more next week. From all others on programme,

goodbye. Hello. Once again, the weekend has

started with quite a variety of weather