08/07/2017 Dateline London


08/07/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 08/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello and welcome to Dateline London, I'm Jane Hill.

:00:24.:00:26.

This week we discuss what the world leaders meeting in Germany

:00:27.:00:29.

We look at continuing problems on India's border,

:00:30.:00:40.

both with China and Pakistan; and also - after an exceptionally

:00:41.:00:48.

busy few months - just how desperate is everyone for a holiday?!

:00:49.:00:50.

Iain Martin, columnist for The Times;

:00:51.:00:56.

Nabila Ramdani, the French-Algerian journalist;

:00:57.:01:03.

Henry Chu, the Europe Editor of Variety;

:01:04.:01:09.

The discussions in the Germany city of Hamburg this weekend involving

:01:10.:01:14.

the World's leaders, come at a delicate time

:01:15.:01:16.

North Korea; climate change; the immigration

:01:17.:01:18.

crisis; Trump in Europe, the list goes on.

:01:19.:01:26.

Iain - President Trump now tells us there's going to be a very fast

:01:27.:01:29.

Yes, so it seems. Good news for Britain, and bad news. The good news

:01:30.:01:46.

there seems to be a trade deal. The bad news, Donald Trump has confirmed

:01:47.:01:50.

at some point he's coming to the UK. Depending on one's review. Britain

:01:51.:01:59.

is a very divided country. He may do us a service, uniting Britain

:02:00.:02:02.

against such a visit. The other big story out of the G20 is the

:02:03.:02:11.

weakening of American power. I am reminded, having seen a lot of these

:02:12.:02:15.

summits some are thinking back to the violence in Nice, Genoa. This

:02:16.:02:25.

backdrop of chaos and extreme violence, 15 years ago, these events

:02:26.:02:31.

were about American power, the projection of American power.

:02:32.:02:35.

America solving the world's problems. That is now clearly no

:02:36.:02:40.

longer the place. Power has become diffused. We focus on Trump for

:02:41.:02:44.

obvious reasons, he is entertaining, controversial figure. He is not as

:02:45.:02:52.

powerful as he thinks. Or as a lot of Americans think. Everybody is

:02:53.:02:58.

nodding around the table. I do agree with what you have just said. The

:02:59.:03:02.

violence we are seeing on the streets Hamburg this weekend is the

:03:03.:03:06.

perfect metaphor for international diplomacy. Intense passions have

:03:07.:03:13.

been aroused. The principal person responsible is Donald Trump's

:03:14.:03:16.

position as the alleged leader of the free world. Hardly an

:03:17.:03:20.

environment for constructive policy making. In the past, summits of

:03:21.:03:28.

these kind used to be all about adhesion and problem solving. --

:03:29.:03:35.

cohesion. Now all about PR and showboating. All the leaders

:03:36.:03:40.

marching off to the next meeting. Posing for these endless pictures.

:03:41.:03:47.

In effect, this testifies to a crisis in confidence, and in fact,

:03:48.:03:54.

the Western consensus so prevalent for many years. People talk about

:03:55.:03:58.

post-capitalism. This is almost posted diplomacy this commentator is

:03:59.:04:03.

far more concerned about misspeaking, that kind of thing.

:04:04.:04:09.

Rather than anything of any substance. No one dares say what

:04:10.:04:16.

they really think? The IDE can get any consensus, let alone policy done

:04:17.:04:20.

at these kind of meetings, frankly absurd. Let's not forget, these

:04:21.:04:29.

leaders can link up at any time, nowadays in the great communication

:04:30.:04:33.

era. The idea of going to get anything done over a very violent,

:04:34.:04:38.

hot and socially awkward meeting is ridiculous. I agree what comes out

:04:39.:04:43.

of these meetings is often bland to the point of pointless. How many of

:04:44.:04:49.

us can remember a communique issued from one of these summits. I don't

:04:50.:04:53.

necessarily think there is a complete break from the past.

:04:54.:04:57.

Interesting you mention 15 years ago from protest against American might.

:04:58.:05:04.

Then you had President George W Bush talking about, for example, imposing

:05:05.:05:09.

tariffs on steel, exactly what is happening today. Continuity with

:05:10.:05:14.

what happened 15 years ago and today. I do agree, the isolation the

:05:15.:05:18.

US is undergoing because of our current leader is not anything I

:05:19.:05:23.

have witnessed in my lifetime. Usually America was seen as ahead of

:05:24.:05:29.

the curve, at least trying to leave. This is America retreating, finding

:05:30.:05:34.

itself not just being shunned by powers that we thought were

:05:35.:05:37.

unfriendly, but those we thought were friendly. When you have won

:05:38.:05:43.

against 19 in a communique against climate change, that says something.

:05:44.:05:50.

That was a process begun by President Obama, the retreat after

:05:51.:05:57.

the disaster of Iraq. I am not associating Obama with Trump given

:05:58.:06:01.

their approach to world affairs is entirely different. Trump may be

:06:02.:06:04.

accelerating the process of America's retreat from the world.

:06:05.:06:09.

Obama took a very different view from Clinton. Even longer than 15

:06:10.:06:13.

years. The tail end of the Clinton era. Demonstrations, the early Bush

:06:14.:06:19.

years. Democrat and Republican leaders saw America in terms of

:06:20.:06:24.

world leadership. Which announced looks ridiculous. That is all driven

:06:25.:06:32.

by Trump. Would not been that different from George Bush's view.

:06:33.:06:39.

Out of Kyoto. The difference with Obama, he did not project the same

:06:40.:06:43.

kind of persona we have become accustomed to with US leaders. His

:06:44.:06:49.

idea of leading was three multilateral organisations. Trump is

:06:50.:06:53.

pulling himself out of that, becoming isolationist. We cannot

:06:54.:06:58.

afford that. Important to bear in mind, while the policy of

:06:59.:07:02.

withdrawing did begin under Obama, there is a vast difference. To date

:07:03.:07:09.

we have the first Detroit dilly Matty Gee 20 where the United States

:07:10.:07:12.

is playing a peripheral role. Significant change from the past.

:07:13.:07:21.

You have four big agenda items. Either the United States is not a

:07:22.:07:26.

part of this, or they're being obstructed. Climate change, for

:07:27.:07:34.

instance. International trade. North Korea has been outsourced to China

:07:35.:07:39.

by President Trump. There is an element of incense and is in the

:07:40.:07:44.

area of counterterrorism. There is more or less a consensus between the

:07:45.:07:53.

G20 countries. Having said that, the problem is the wording of the

:07:54.:07:58.

documents. There has to be a strong enough wording which rarely happens

:07:59.:08:03.

that T20 or any of these summits. The bigger the group, the more

:08:04.:08:07.

difficult to get stronger wording this then comes the matter of

:08:08.:08:11.

follow-up. We are nine years after the economic meltdown, still in

:08:12.:08:20.

austerity. That tells you how much the action which has followed the

:08:21.:08:24.

resolution is taking T20 summits, have done or not done. Beyond the

:08:25.:08:31.

T20 summits, there is strong indication world leaders take

:08:32.:08:34.

bilateral meetings more seriously than general ones. Theresa May met

:08:35.:08:39.

with Donald Trump, they did not hold hands on this occasion this we heard

:08:40.:08:45.

from Donald Trump, saying they will be big trade deals. The reality is

:08:46.:08:51.

Theresa May could be gone before proper negotiations start. As to

:08:52.:08:57.

Trump. This is an example of how the G20 meeting could not come across as

:08:58.:09:04.

more hot air rather than anything being achieved. All about good

:09:05.:09:09.

pledges this which can turn pretty hollow. Are we all saying, the big

:09:10.:09:16.

set piece meetings are worthless? Just have the bilaterals? The nature

:09:17.:09:22.

of those meetings have changed. We have to accept that. For example, I

:09:23.:09:29.

am pretty sure a lot of people in France and Europe would have been

:09:30.:09:32.

shocked at the way the French president and many well Macron was

:09:33.:09:43.

paddling up with Trump. -- getting friendly with Trump. Of course you

:09:44.:09:49.

have two be respectful, but that is different from being friendly.

:09:50.:09:53.

President Macron will have to learn international politics is much more

:09:54.:09:59.

politics than treating him like a buddy. Having meetings like this

:10:00.:10:06.

does serve a purpose. After the financial meltdown there was a T20

:10:07.:10:14.

that focused on having to repair the financial system and came away with

:10:15.:10:18.

good ideas. Right now, with the US being isolated, historically having

:10:19.:10:22.

been the leader and no longer, there is a real deficit. A thought on

:10:23.:10:28.

Theresa May, how she has performed. We mentioned the meeting with Trump.

:10:29.:10:33.

She goes on to a curiouser difficult time in this country. What is your

:10:34.:10:38.

take on how she has performed? Leeway to understand it is think of

:10:39.:10:42.

the leader propped up by the Cabinet. They cannot necessarily

:10:43.:10:49.

agree on a replacement. It sounds cruel, she's a cutout. A cardboard

:10:50.:10:57.

cutout pro minister. This month the focus is on can she make it through

:10:58.:11:01.

to the summer, the Conservative Party conference in October? Will

:11:02.:11:08.

she go by Christmas? Do the Conservatives skip a generation. Go

:11:09.:11:17.

for someone younger. Might be some untried and untested. She is there

:11:18.:11:24.

is a placeholder pro minister. Where that really complicates Brexit, very

:11:25.:11:29.

often, and this is where diplomacy does matter, the connection between

:11:30.:11:33.

leaders. Leaders can bridge the divide. If the talks get bogged down

:11:34.:11:38.

on Brexit, it would need a strong British pro minister to say to

:11:39.:11:43.

Angela Merkel and Macron, there was a gap, a compromise to be done which

:11:44.:11:47.

can make Brexit happen more smoothly than otherwise might be the case.

:11:48.:11:52.

That requires a Prime Minister with confidence and some clout and

:11:53.:11:56.

authority. Which it is fair to say Theresa May does not have.

:11:57.:12:01.

Problematic for the British, in terms of how the negotiations go.

:12:02.:12:07.

Looking at it from the other side. Donald Trump saying things like a

:12:08.:12:10.

trade deal will happen quickly does not mean anything. Does not even

:12:11.:12:17.

know what he's talking about. Sorry to say this, these deals do not

:12:18.:12:20.

happen quickly. They take a very, very long time. Completely

:12:21.:12:26.

misleading people by saying that. As is the EU, trumpeting a trade deal

:12:27.:12:32.

between the EU and Japan which does not exist yet. Taking four, five

:12:33.:12:43.

years. Never thought about climate change? Will it go Angela Merkel's

:12:44.:12:49.

way? The well's biggest polluter is not part of the Paris deal. How does

:12:50.:12:55.

the world proceed with this deal? The rest of the world may continue

:12:56.:13:00.

to do what they have committed today. Without the United States, a

:13:01.:13:03.

difficult one to achieve the targets set in Paris. The only consolation I

:13:04.:13:11.

take from this, in the US you have states, for instance, my home state

:13:12.:13:16.

of California, committed to reducing carbon efficiency. And have much

:13:17.:13:19.

more environmental sense. The idea climate change is real and

:13:20.:13:24.

happening, and needs to be counted as much as possible. Although it may

:13:25.:13:27.

not be happening on federal level, there are states trying to take

:13:28.:13:35.

action. That is so interesting. One of those issues, if big polluting

:13:36.:13:41.

industrial countries are not united, people will say, what is the point?

:13:42.:13:46.

No use being as green as you can be in California, despite its size and

:13:47.:13:50.

economic power, if everyone is not on board. We will see whether China

:13:51.:13:54.

and India live up to their commitments. Good they are pledging

:13:55.:14:00.

to. China has a history of environmental degradation, even

:14:01.:14:03.

though they have policies supposed to alleviate that. Hopefully they

:14:04.:14:09.

will live up to those commitments. We will be discussing that all

:14:10.:14:10.

again. Well before he arrived at the G20,

:14:11.:14:12.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi went to Israel -

:14:13.:14:15.

the first Indian PM But he left behind growing

:14:16.:14:20.

tensions and anxiety between his country,

:14:21.:14:35.

Pakistan and China, especially There is a dispute between China and

:14:36.:14:46.

India over the border. The two science disputing the Dili new

:14:47.:14:50.

nation. There was a five-minute chat between the two leaders. The outcome

:14:51.:14:59.

is not known. Neither side has confirmed whether the stand-off was

:15:00.:15:03.

discussed at all. A lot of attention of late. China refusing the meeting

:15:04.:15:09.

to start with, they said the atmosphere is not right for such a

:15:10.:15:13.

meeting. Eventually what happened, there was a meeting of BRIC country

:15:14.:15:23.

leaders. There was a polar side, the two had a chat for five minutes.

:15:24.:15:29.

China has been playing very tough in recent times. The China and Pakistan

:15:30.:15:35.

axis really endangering India at the moment. Of late, this is a bit

:15:36.:15:43.

unusual. In the last 25 years or so, since the peace and tranquillity

:15:44.:15:47.

treaty between India and China things have been going very well. On

:15:48.:15:51.

the trade front, they have been going extremely well, particularly

:15:52.:15:55.

for China. All of a sudden in the last three years, the Chinese

:15:56.:15:59.

approach has become very tough. There is of course a reason for

:16:00.:16:04.

this. At the same time, there is a condition which needs to be sorted

:16:05.:16:08.

out between these two major Asian countries. You are nodding. I'm glad

:16:09.:16:16.

there was a five-minute talk. What concerns me more India and Pakistan

:16:17.:16:20.

are not talking. That border I find much hotter than the Indian in China

:16:21.:16:26.

border. Given what has been going on Kashmir, at the heart of the

:16:27.:16:31.

conflict, the fact both our nuclear armed states. Pakistan doing a test

:16:32.:16:36.

fire Fellaini Killeen missable earlier this week. That seems much

:16:37.:16:40.

more concerning them Pakistan and China. I think in general the

:16:41.:16:47.

tension between India and Pakistan is always at a higher level than the

:16:48.:16:52.

tension between India and China. Between India and China matters had

:16:53.:16:58.

cooled off considerably for a number of years. Nearly a quarter of a

:16:59.:17:02.

century. Between India and Pakistan there is inevitably a face-off. The

:17:03.:17:08.

Kashmir situation is very hot of the moment. As you rightly said, there

:17:09.:17:15.

is no dialogue between the two countries at ministerial level.

:17:16.:17:20.

Maybe the officials will get together at the civil service levels

:17:21.:17:25.

soon. Ambassadors exist in both countries. Rather High Commissioners

:17:26.:17:33.

in this case. Fundamentally, it is a very tense situation between the two

:17:34.:17:38.

countries. What is at stake, it seems to be potentially the defining

:17:39.:17:45.

relationship of the first half of the 20th century. India versus China

:17:46.:17:54.

this a new book, on the retreat of Western liberalism makes that point.

:17:55.:17:58.

Two models tested alongside each other. Both newly capitalist, one

:17:59.:18:06.

autocratic, one Democratic. Whoever wins the battle, as American power

:18:07.:18:12.

declines, the West offers an identity crisis, will become the

:18:13.:18:17.

great power of the future. That is indeed true. China has certainly

:18:18.:18:23.

been off to a much faster pace in the last 30 years or so. Where as

:18:24.:18:30.

democratic injury Dili Mecca India had challenges. At the Mehmedi

:18:31.:18:35.

situation interesting, China and India have slowed down. Part of this

:18:36.:18:42.

meltdown catching up, not quite allowing the two countries to take

:18:43.:18:45.

off as they would have liked to have done. There was a time India grew at

:18:46.:18:53.

10% plus GDP. Remarkable for a country democratic way you have

:18:54.:18:56.

hurdles, court cases to deal with before you can start a project like

:18:57.:19:02.

motorway. In that situation India was doing quite well. Inevitably,

:19:03.:19:10.

the pace is faster in China this ultimately India may get there, but

:19:11.:19:14.

a very interesting two models competing with each other. I do

:19:15.:19:20.

think, it seems to me that China's encroachment on that small disputed

:19:21.:19:25.

territory at the intersection between China, India and Bhutan,

:19:26.:19:31.

where the dispute is all about. All about the budding superpower China

:19:32.:19:35.

trying to expand its sphere of influence beyond East Asia into

:19:36.:19:39.

South Asia. This time around is not an armed conflict. All about a

:19:40.:19:49.

geostrategic Cold War with India. Not the first time they have had a

:19:50.:19:54.

stand-off. One going back to 1962, unarmed one. Tensions over Tibet and

:19:55.:20:01.

along the border. China had emerged victorious. This is the longer

:20:02.:20:06.

stand-off so far between the two countries. We have been talking

:20:07.:20:13.

about America's retreat, going in on itself, in relation to June 20. Does

:20:14.:20:17.

America have a role to play, in relation to China? Between China and

:20:18.:20:24.

India, I am not so sure. What has been commented on a lot, I find it

:20:25.:20:31.

ironic living in China, and being America, is China extending its

:20:32.:20:34.

sphere of influence into places that the US had occupied. Whether it is

:20:35.:20:42.

on climate, the projection of power, through naval forces, for example,

:20:43.:20:46.

in the shipping lanes around Asia, that has historically been the US

:20:47.:20:53.

protecting their shipping lanes. I find it worrisome that China is

:20:54.:20:57.

stepping into the breach. Another sign of American retreating from

:20:58.:21:04.

what had been its historic duties, the role it played. While I am

:21:05.:21:10.

concerned about the decline of America diplomatically. I would not

:21:11.:21:15.

write off the US. Even though it has been through economic turmoil, it

:21:16.:21:19.

has still been by far the most innovative economy on earth. As a

:21:20.:21:26.

believe in democracy, there is something inherently necessary for

:21:27.:21:30.

innovation, competition to happen, you have to have a free society this

:21:31.:21:35.

theft is the problem, the unknowable thing with China, in an autocratic

:21:36.:21:42.

society, can you innovate? You can replicate, become very efficient and

:21:43.:21:45.

successful, but can you produce the answers to climate change? The next

:21:46.:21:51.

wave of the Internet. All the stuff that has come out of America in the

:21:52.:21:56.

last 25 years has its roots in Bill Gates being rebellious, a battle of

:21:57.:22:02.

ideas. I'm not going to go off and during the state-run company, take

:22:03.:22:07.

other people orders. I will go off and innovate and invent, my ideas

:22:08.:22:13.

are better than the other guys. That runs right through American society.

:22:14.:22:18.

Even though America is in a bad place, should not be written off. I

:22:19.:22:24.

would add, if I make the withdrawing from expensive wars will lead singer

:22:25.:22:29.

and economic bounce back for the United States. -- will lead to stop

:22:30.:22:37.

whether it happens under the Trump model, we don't know. Coming out of

:22:38.:22:40.

these very expensive situations in the Middle East and Afghanistan was

:22:41.:22:44.

helpful, and gradually leading to prosperity. That said, there was a

:22:45.:22:51.

strategic agreement between the United States and India which China

:22:52.:22:58.

saw as being against China. An agreement between present Obama and

:22:59.:23:04.

Prime Minister Modi, but that seems to have slipped away under President

:23:05.:23:10.

Trump. Also to do with an arms race. President Modi's visit to Israel

:23:11.:23:16.

testifies to that. Another example of a populist global leader trying

:23:17.:23:19.

to humiliate millions of Muslims around the world. Not only in his

:23:20.:23:25.

own country but neighbouring Pakistan. He wants it betrayed them

:23:26.:23:29.

as the enemy within and threatening externally. Instead of installation

:23:30.:23:36.

to Lee McKenzie DH and can he sees the future in a constant armed

:23:37.:23:40.

struggle, his side being armed to the teeth, being ready to dispatch

:23:41.:23:44.

as many Muslims as possible when trouble arises. I would call it the

:23:45.:23:46.

Israeli model. He has broken decades of support for

:23:47.:23:58.

the Palestinian cause. Tallying up with on a ferry Terry and hawks like

:23:59.:24:08.

Benjamin Netanyahu. He snubbed Palestinian leaders, and also

:24:09.:24:12.

stocked up with weapons. I found it quite outrageous a leader like him

:24:13.:24:16.

chooses to side with the state of Israel, which regularly breaches

:24:17.:24:22.

international and humanitarian laws, whose leaders past and present stand

:24:23.:24:26.

accused of war crimes this who are constantly expanding illegal

:24:27.:24:31.

colonial entity. I found it quite distasteful. Some of the big

:24:32.:24:36.

question is, we will continue to debate. It is July. Every journalist

:24:37.:24:43.

in the UK and abroad is worn out after events of the last few weeks.

:24:44.:24:45.

The Queen has gone on holiday; Westminster can't wait

:24:46.:24:47.

And everyone you talk to seems desperate to get away and forget

:24:48.:24:51.

the troubles of an exceptionally busy few months.

:24:52.:24:53.

How do you all intend to recharge your batteries?

:24:54.:24:55.

Iain, every political corr I know is worn out!

:24:56.:24:57.

The South of France as quickly as possible in three or four days'

:24:58.:25:04.

time. I have never known a period where people are so much in need of

:25:05.:25:10.

a holiday. Brexit, Trump, Britain on a cycle, Scottish referendum. Three

:25:11.:25:15.

or four years of intense activity. Combined with the heat. The

:25:16.:25:20.

political and media establishment in London has gone off its said. Needs

:25:21.:25:30.

to go away for a while. Journalists have trouble switching off the

:25:31.:25:34.

revenue cycle is 20 grams a day. Getting sucked into all of this.

:25:35.:25:38.

Every time there. I remember a time I would go on holiday, come back,

:25:39.:25:44.

catching up with the world. Watching the TV news bulletin, reading a

:25:45.:25:47.

newspaper. Now TV screens are everywhere. You are encouraged to be

:25:48.:25:52.

connected to your devices at all times. Do not do it, switch them

:25:53.:25:57.

off. To me, this is the most enjoyable time of the year. I go to

:25:58.:26:03.

laws to watch Test cricket, go to Wimbledon to watch the tennis. The

:26:04.:26:07.

British Open golf coming up. Looking forward to it. And in nearly the

:26:08.:26:13.

Proms. With Brexit looming, I should go to countries I don't need a visa

:26:14.:26:19.

to visit, I have picked Scotland. I will be visiting the Highlands,

:26:20.:26:22.

which I've never done before. You will love that. Enjoy,

:26:23.:26:27.

well-deserved. Switch off the iPhone. For anyone watching, going

:26:28.:26:34.

on holiday, have a wonderful time. Those who are not going holiday, we

:26:35.:26:41.

will see you over the course of the summer. See you again soon, goodbye.

:26:42.:27:05.

On balance, pretty decent day ahead of us.

:27:06.:27:10.

More cloud in southern areas compared to

:27:11.:27:13.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS