Browse content similar to 08/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to Dateline London, I'm Jane Hill. | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
This week we discuss what the world leaders meeting in Germany | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
We look at continuing problems on India's border, | :00:30. | :00:40. | |
both with China and Pakistan; and also - after an exceptionally | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
busy few months - just how desperate is everyone for a holiday?! | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
Iain Martin, columnist for The Times; | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
Nabila Ramdani, the French-Algerian journalist; | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
Henry Chu, the Europe Editor of Variety; | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
The discussions in the Germany city of Hamburg this weekend involving | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
the World's leaders, come at a delicate time | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
North Korea; climate change; the immigration | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
crisis; Trump in Europe, the list goes on. | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
Iain - President Trump now tells us there's going to be a very fast | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
Yes, so it seems. Good news for Britain, and bad news. The good news | :01:30. | :01:46. | |
there seems to be a trade deal. The bad news, Donald Trump has confirmed | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
at some point he's coming to the UK. Depending on one's review. Britain | :01:51. | :01:59. | |
is a very divided country. He may do us a service, uniting Britain | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
against such a visit. The other big story out of the G20 is the | :02:03. | :02:11. | |
weakening of American power. I am reminded, having seen a lot of these | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
summits some are thinking back to the violence in Nice, Genoa. This | :02:16. | :02:25. | |
backdrop of chaos and extreme violence, 15 years ago, these events | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
were about American power, the projection of American power. | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
America solving the world's problems. That is now clearly no | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
longer the place. Power has become diffused. We focus on Trump for | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
obvious reasons, he is entertaining, controversial figure. He is not as | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
powerful as he thinks. Or as a lot of Americans think. Everybody is | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
nodding around the table. I do agree with what you have just said. The | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
violence we are seeing on the streets Hamburg this weekend is the | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
perfect metaphor for international diplomacy. Intense passions have | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
been aroused. The principal person responsible is Donald Trump's | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
position as the alleged leader of the free world. Hardly an | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
environment for constructive policy making. In the past, summits of | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
these kind used to be all about adhesion and problem solving. -- | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
cohesion. Now all about PR and showboating. All the leaders | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
marching off to the next meeting. Posing for these endless pictures. | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
In effect, this testifies to a crisis in confidence, and in fact, | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
the Western consensus so prevalent for many years. People talk about | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
post-capitalism. This is almost posted diplomacy this commentator is | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
far more concerned about misspeaking, that kind of thing. | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
Rather than anything of any substance. No one dares say what | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
they really think? The IDE can get any consensus, let alone policy done | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
at these kind of meetings, frankly absurd. Let's not forget, these | :04:21. | :04:29. | |
leaders can link up at any time, nowadays in the great communication | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
era. The idea of going to get anything done over a very violent, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
hot and socially awkward meeting is ridiculous. I agree what comes out | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
of these meetings is often bland to the point of pointless. How many of | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
us can remember a communique issued from one of these summits. I don't | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
necessarily think there is a complete break from the past. | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Interesting you mention 15 years ago from protest against American might. | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
Then you had President George W Bush talking about, for example, imposing | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
tariffs on steel, exactly what is happening today. Continuity with | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
what happened 15 years ago and today. I do agree, the isolation the | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
US is undergoing because of our current leader is not anything I | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
have witnessed in my lifetime. Usually America was seen as ahead of | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
the curve, at least trying to leave. This is America retreating, finding | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
itself not just being shunned by powers that we thought were | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
unfriendly, but those we thought were friendly. When you have won | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
against 19 in a communique against climate change, that says something. | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
That was a process begun by President Obama, the retreat after | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
the disaster of Iraq. I am not associating Obama with Trump given | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
their approach to world affairs is entirely different. Trump may be | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
accelerating the process of America's retreat from the world. | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
Obama took a very different view from Clinton. Even longer than 15 | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
years. The tail end of the Clinton era. Demonstrations, the early Bush | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
years. Democrat and Republican leaders saw America in terms of | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
world leadership. Which announced looks ridiculous. That is all driven | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
by Trump. Would not been that different from George Bush's view. | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
Out of Kyoto. The difference with Obama, he did not project the same | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
kind of persona we have become accustomed to with US leaders. His | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
idea of leading was three multilateral organisations. Trump is | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
pulling himself out of that, becoming isolationist. We cannot | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
afford that. Important to bear in mind, while the policy of | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
withdrawing did begin under Obama, there is a vast difference. To date | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
we have the first Detroit dilly Matty Gee 20 where the United States | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
is playing a peripheral role. Significant change from the past. | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
You have four big agenda items. Either the United States is not a | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
part of this, or they're being obstructed. Climate change, for | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
instance. International trade. North Korea has been outsourced to China | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
by President Trump. There is an element of incense and is in the | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
area of counterterrorism. There is more or less a consensus between the | :07:45. | :07:53. | |
G20 countries. Having said that, the problem is the wording of the | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
documents. There has to be a strong enough wording which rarely happens | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
that T20 or any of these summits. The bigger the group, the more | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
difficult to get stronger wording this then comes the matter of | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
follow-up. We are nine years after the economic meltdown, still in | :08:12. | :08:20. | |
austerity. That tells you how much the action which has followed the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
resolution is taking T20 summits, have done or not done. Beyond the | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
T20 summits, there is strong indication world leaders take | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
bilateral meetings more seriously than general ones. Theresa May met | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
with Donald Trump, they did not hold hands on this occasion this we heard | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
from Donald Trump, saying they will be big trade deals. The reality is | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Theresa May could be gone before proper negotiations start. As to | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
Trump. This is an example of how the G20 meeting could not come across as | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
more hot air rather than anything being achieved. All about good | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
pledges this which can turn pretty hollow. Are we all saying, the big | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
set piece meetings are worthless? Just have the bilaterals? The nature | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
of those meetings have changed. We have to accept that. For example, I | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
am pretty sure a lot of people in France and Europe would have been | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
shocked at the way the French president and many well Macron was | :09:33. | :09:43. | |
paddling up with Trump. -- getting friendly with Trump. Of course you | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
have two be respectful, but that is different from being friendly. | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
President Macron will have to learn international politics is much more | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
politics than treating him like a buddy. Having meetings like this | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
does serve a purpose. After the financial meltdown there was a T20 | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
that focused on having to repair the financial system and came away with | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
good ideas. Right now, with the US being isolated, historically having | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
been the leader and no longer, there is a real deficit. A thought on | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
Theresa May, how she has performed. We mentioned the meeting with Trump. | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
She goes on to a curiouser difficult time in this country. What is your | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
take on how she has performed? Leeway to understand it is think of | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
the leader propped up by the Cabinet. They cannot necessarily | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
agree on a replacement. It sounds cruel, she's a cutout. A cardboard | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
cutout pro minister. This month the focus is on can she make it through | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
to the summer, the Conservative Party conference in October? Will | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
she go by Christmas? Do the Conservatives skip a generation. Go | :11:09. | :11:17. | |
for someone younger. Might be some untried and untested. She is there | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
is a placeholder pro minister. Where that really complicates Brexit, very | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
often, and this is where diplomacy does matter, the connection between | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
leaders. Leaders can bridge the divide. If the talks get bogged down | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
on Brexit, it would need a strong British pro minister to say to | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Angela Merkel and Macron, there was a gap, a compromise to be done which | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
can make Brexit happen more smoothly than otherwise might be the case. | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
That requires a Prime Minister with confidence and some clout and | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
authority. Which it is fair to say Theresa May does not have. | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
Problematic for the British, in terms of how the negotiations go. | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
Looking at it from the other side. Donald Trump saying things like a | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
trade deal will happen quickly does not mean anything. Does not even | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
know what he's talking about. Sorry to say this, these deals do not | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
happen quickly. They take a very, very long time. Completely | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
misleading people by saying that. As is the EU, trumpeting a trade deal | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
between the EU and Japan which does not exist yet. Taking four, five | :12:33. | :12:43. | |
years. Never thought about climate change? Will it go Angela Merkel's | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
way? The well's biggest polluter is not part of the Paris deal. How does | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
the world proceed with this deal? The rest of the world may continue | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
to do what they have committed today. Without the United States, a | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
difficult one to achieve the targets set in Paris. The only consolation I | :13:04. | :13:11. | |
take from this, in the US you have states, for instance, my home state | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
of California, committed to reducing carbon efficiency. And have much | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
more environmental sense. The idea climate change is real and | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
happening, and needs to be counted as much as possible. Although it may | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
not be happening on federal level, there are states trying to take | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
action. That is so interesting. One of those issues, if big polluting | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
industrial countries are not united, people will say, what is the point? | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
No use being as green as you can be in California, despite its size and | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
economic power, if everyone is not on board. We will see whether China | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
and India live up to their commitments. Good they are pledging | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
to. China has a history of environmental degradation, even | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
though they have policies supposed to alleviate that. Hopefully they | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
will live up to those commitments. We will be discussing that all | :14:10. | :14:10. | |
again. Well before he arrived at the G20, | :14:11. | :14:12. | |
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi went to Israel - | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
the first Indian PM But he left behind growing | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
tensions and anxiety between his country, | :14:21. | :14:35. | |
Pakistan and China, especially There is a dispute between China and | :14:36. | :14:46. | |
India over the border. The two science disputing the Dili new | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
nation. There was a five-minute chat between the two leaders. The outcome | :14:51. | :14:59. | |
is not known. Neither side has confirmed whether the stand-off was | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
discussed at all. A lot of attention of late. China refusing the meeting | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
to start with, they said the atmosphere is not right for such a | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
meeting. Eventually what happened, there was a meeting of BRIC country | :15:14. | :15:23. | |
leaders. There was a polar side, the two had a chat for five minutes. | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
China has been playing very tough in recent times. The China and Pakistan | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
axis really endangering India at the moment. Of late, this is a bit | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
unusual. In the last 25 years or so, since the peace and tranquillity | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
treaty between India and China things have been going very well. On | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
the trade front, they have been going extremely well, particularly | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
for China. All of a sudden in the last three years, the Chinese | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
approach has become very tough. There is of course a reason for | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
this. At the same time, there is a condition which needs to be sorted | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
out between these two major Asian countries. You are nodding. I'm glad | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
there was a five-minute talk. What concerns me more India and Pakistan | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
are not talking. That border I find much hotter than the Indian in China | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
border. Given what has been going on Kashmir, at the heart of the | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
conflict, the fact both our nuclear armed states. Pakistan doing a test | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
fire Fellaini Killeen missable earlier this week. That seems much | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
more concerning them Pakistan and China. I think in general the | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
tension between India and Pakistan is always at a higher level than the | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
tension between India and China. Between India and China matters had | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
cooled off considerably for a number of years. Nearly a quarter of a | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
century. Between India and Pakistan there is inevitably a face-off. The | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
Kashmir situation is very hot of the moment. As you rightly said, there | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
is no dialogue between the two countries at ministerial level. | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
Maybe the officials will get together at the civil service levels | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
soon. Ambassadors exist in both countries. Rather High Commissioners | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
in this case. Fundamentally, it is a very tense situation between the two | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
countries. What is at stake, it seems to be potentially the defining | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
relationship of the first half of the 20th century. India versus China | :17:46. | :17:54. | |
this a new book, on the retreat of Western liberalism makes that point. | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
Two models tested alongside each other. Both newly capitalist, one | :17:59. | :18:06. | |
autocratic, one Democratic. Whoever wins the battle, as American power | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
declines, the West offers an identity crisis, will become the | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
great power of the future. That is indeed true. China has certainly | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
been off to a much faster pace in the last 30 years or so. Where as | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
democratic injury Dili Mecca India had challenges. At the Mehmedi | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
situation interesting, China and India have slowed down. Part of this | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
meltdown catching up, not quite allowing the two countries to take | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
off as they would have liked to have done. There was a time India grew at | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
10% plus GDP. Remarkable for a country democratic way you have | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
hurdles, court cases to deal with before you can start a project like | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
motorway. In that situation India was doing quite well. Inevitably, | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
the pace is faster in China this ultimately India may get there, but | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
a very interesting two models competing with each other. I do | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
think, it seems to me that China's encroachment on that small disputed | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
territory at the intersection between China, India and Bhutan, | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
where the dispute is all about. All about the budding superpower China | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
trying to expand its sphere of influence beyond East Asia into | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
South Asia. This time around is not an armed conflict. All about a | :19:40. | :19:49. | |
geostrategic Cold War with India. Not the first time they have had a | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
stand-off. One going back to 1962, unarmed one. Tensions over Tibet and | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
along the border. China had emerged victorious. This is the longer | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
stand-off so far between the two countries. We have been talking | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
about America's retreat, going in on itself, in relation to June 20. Does | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
America have a role to play, in relation to China? Between China and | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
India, I am not so sure. What has been commented on a lot, I find it | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
ironic living in China, and being America, is China extending its | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
sphere of influence into places that the US had occupied. Whether it is | :20:35. | :20:42. | |
on climate, the projection of power, through naval forces, for example, | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
in the shipping lanes around Asia, that has historically been the US | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
protecting their shipping lanes. I find it worrisome that China is | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
stepping into the breach. Another sign of American retreating from | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
what had been its historic duties, the role it played. While I am | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
concerned about the decline of America diplomatically. I would not | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
write off the US. Even though it has been through economic turmoil, it | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
has still been by far the most innovative economy on earth. As a | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
believe in democracy, there is something inherently necessary for | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
innovation, competition to happen, you have to have a free society this | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
theft is the problem, the unknowable thing with China, in an autocratic | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
society, can you innovate? You can replicate, become very efficient and | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
successful, but can you produce the answers to climate change? The next | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
wave of the Internet. All the stuff that has come out of America in the | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
last 25 years has its roots in Bill Gates being rebellious, a battle of | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
ideas. I'm not going to go off and during the state-run company, take | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
other people orders. I will go off and innovate and invent, my ideas | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
are better than the other guys. That runs right through American society. | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
Even though America is in a bad place, should not be written off. I | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
would add, if I make the withdrawing from expensive wars will lead singer | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
and economic bounce back for the United States. -- will lead to stop | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
whether it happens under the Trump model, we don't know. Coming out of | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
these very expensive situations in the Middle East and Afghanistan was | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
helpful, and gradually leading to prosperity. That said, there was a | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
strategic agreement between the United States and India which China | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
saw as being against China. An agreement between present Obama and | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
Prime Minister Modi, but that seems to have slipped away under President | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
Trump. Also to do with an arms race. President Modi's visit to Israel | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
testifies to that. Another example of a populist global leader trying | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
to humiliate millions of Muslims around the world. Not only in his | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
own country but neighbouring Pakistan. He wants it betrayed them | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
as the enemy within and threatening externally. Instead of installation | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
to Lee McKenzie DH and can he sees the future in a constant armed | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
struggle, his side being armed to the teeth, being ready to dispatch | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
as many Muslims as possible when trouble arises. I would call it the | :23:45. | :23:46. | |
Israeli model. He has broken decades of support for | :23:47. | :23:58. | |
the Palestinian cause. Tallying up with on a ferry Terry and hawks like | :23:59. | :24:08. | |
Benjamin Netanyahu. He snubbed Palestinian leaders, and also | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
stocked up with weapons. I found it quite outrageous a leader like him | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
chooses to side with the state of Israel, which regularly breaches | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
international and humanitarian laws, whose leaders past and present stand | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
accused of war crimes this who are constantly expanding illegal | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
colonial entity. I found it quite distasteful. Some of the big | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
question is, we will continue to debate. It is July. Every journalist | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
in the UK and abroad is worn out after events of the last few weeks. | :24:44. | :24:45. | |
The Queen has gone on holiday; Westminster can't wait | :24:46. | :24:47. | |
And everyone you talk to seems desperate to get away and forget | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
the troubles of an exceptionally busy few months. | :24:52. | :24:53. | |
How do you all intend to recharge your batteries? | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
Iain, every political corr I know is worn out! | :24:56. | :24:57. | |
The South of France as quickly as possible in three or four days' | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
time. I have never known a period where people are so much in need of | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
a holiday. Brexit, Trump, Britain on a cycle, Scottish referendum. Three | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
or four years of intense activity. Combined with the heat. The | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
political and media establishment in London has gone off its said. Needs | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
to go away for a while. Journalists have trouble switching off the | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
revenue cycle is 20 grams a day. Getting sucked into all of this. | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Every time there. I remember a time I would go on holiday, come back, | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
catching up with the world. Watching the TV news bulletin, reading a | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
newspaper. Now TV screens are everywhere. You are encouraged to be | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
connected to your devices at all times. Do not do it, switch them | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
off. To me, this is the most enjoyable time of the year. I go to | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
laws to watch Test cricket, go to Wimbledon to watch the tennis. The | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
British Open golf coming up. Looking forward to it. And in nearly the | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
Proms. With Brexit looming, I should go to countries I don't need a visa | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
to visit, I have picked Scotland. I will be visiting the Highlands, | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
which I've never done before. You will love that. Enjoy, | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
well-deserved. Switch off the iPhone. For anyone watching, going | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
on holiday, have a wonderful time. Those who are not going holiday, we | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
will see you over the course of the summer. See you again soon, goodbye. | :26:42. | :27:05. | |
On balance, pretty decent day ahead of us. | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
More cloud in southern areas compared to | :27:11. | :27:13. |