Browse content similar to 26/01/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It has received millions of pounds of public money. It has already | 0:00:01 | 0:00:06 | |
been the subject of two government reviews. Now fresh allegations of | 0:00:06 | 0:00:09 | |
financial irregularities and nepotism have left an organisation | 0:00:09 | 0:00:14 | |
that is supposed to support some of Wales' most hundred represents to | 0:00:14 | 0:00:18 | |
to read it is in crisis. And here in Edinburgh, a momentous week in | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
Scottish politics, but what does it mean for Wales? This is Dragon's | 0:00:21 | 0:00:31 | |
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Good evening. The Welsh government has suspended its funding of the at | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
All Wales Ethnic Minority Association, known as AWEMA, | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
pending an investigation into Iraq allegations of financial corruption | 0:00:45 | 0:00:52 | |
and nepotism. A highly critical report recommended that AWEMA's | 0:00:52 | 0:00:56 | |
chief executive officer, Naz Malik, and his daughter, Tegwen Malik, | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
should be suspended immediately pending a disciplinary inquiry. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
When the chair, Rita Austin, failed to implement the recommendations, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
seven out of the nine trustees resigned. It is nine years since | 0:01:09 | 0:01:13 | |
Dragon's Eye first reported on concerns about management practices | 0:01:13 | 0:01:18 | |
at AWEMA, which Mr Malik has led since 2001. They have already been | 0:01:18 | 0:01:24 | |
two previous Welsh government reviews. Arwyn Jones reports. | 0:01:24 | 0:01:28 | |
Its job is to promote equality and diversity for the benefit of the | 0:01:28 | 0:01:32 | |
public. It is supposed to help develop the skills and abilities of | 0:01:32 | 0:01:35 | |
Wales' diverse communities. It should raise awareness of | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
discrimination and promote racial harmony. But our investigations | 0:01:39 | 0:01:43 | |
found very little harmony at the All Wales Ethnic Minority | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
Association, or AWEMA. It is the largest organisation of its kind in | 0:01:47 | 0:01:53 | |
Wales, handling nearly �8.5 million of public money. Following a number | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
of complaints against the chief executive of AWEMA, Naz Malik, a | 0:01:57 | 0:02:01 | |
report was commissioned to to look at allegations of financial | 0:02:01 | 0:02:06 | |
irregularities. The report, seen by Dragon's Eye, which is -- reaches | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
several critical conclusions. Commissioned by the trustees, it | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
claims that Naz Malik used Crewe funds in an inappropriate way | 0:02:13 | 0:02:18 | |
including paying off his credit card debts worth over �9,000 -- | 0:02:18 | 0:02:23 | |
AWEMA funds. But he has increased his own benefit package without due | 0:02:23 | 0:02:27 | |
openers for transparency, this includes his salary being increased | 0:02:27 | 0:02:33 | |
to over �65,000 without approval from the charity's board. And that | 0:02:33 | 0:02:38 | |
Mr Malik has authorised an appropriate payments, expenses and | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
purchases which may constitute gross misconduct, and that Naz | 0:02:42 | 0:02:46 | |
Malik's daughter, Tegwen Malik, had been employed and promoted on a | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
number of occasions without any internal or external competition. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:56 | |
The report shows Tegwen Malik's salary increased from �20,000 in | 0:02:56 | 0:03:03 | |
January 2008, to �50,000 in August 2011. The report recommended that | 0:03:03 | 0:03:08 | |
both Naz Malik and his daughter should be suspended immediately | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
pending a disciplinary inquiry and hearing. That has not happened. It | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
is understood the newly appointed chairman of AWEMA, Rita Austin, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
decided on a written and verbal warning instead -- verbal warning | 0:03:19 | 0:03:23 | |
instead. Following that decision, seven of the nine trustees have | 0:03:23 | 0:03:28 | |
resigned. Both Naz Malik and Tegwen Malik remain in post. This is the | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
man who wrote the report. He doesn't want to discuss the details | 0:03:32 | 0:03:34 | |
but is unhappy that his recommendations were not | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
implemented. I recommended that a number of procedural steps should | 0:03:39 | 0:03:48 | |
be taken, which would allow time for investigations to be held about | 0:03:48 | 0:03:53 | |
a range of allegations that were made by a variety of people. I | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
thought that was really, really important. My understanding is that | 0:03:58 | 0:04:04 | |
has not happened and that the people who are running the | 0:04:04 | 0:04:09 | |
organisation, both in terms of the border and in terms of management, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
have not in my view would be quickly followed through on the | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
recommendations that I made -- Broad dashboard. They have taken | 0:04:18 | 0:04:22 | |
several measures but I understand it they are measures which would | 0:04:22 | 0:04:29 | |
not be viewed by many. The matter has reached the floor of the Senedd. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
Can I ask you once more in terms of a statement as the situation as | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
regards AWEMA and the investigation that is taking place in to that | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
organisation. Dragon's Eye can reveal that the Welsh government, | 0:04:40 | 0:04:44 | |
the Big Lottery Fund and the Wales European funding Office have | 0:04:44 | 0:04:49 | |
suspended their grants AWEMA pending further investigations. In | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
total more than �3 million is being held back and the authorities are | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
liaising with South Wales Police. This is not the first time the | 0:04:57 | 0:05:02 | |
Welsh government has had to investigate the dealings of the All | 0:05:02 | 0:05:04 | |
Wales Ethnic Minority Association. Nearly a decade ago Dragon's Eye | 0:05:04 | 0:05:09 | |
looked into the matter after allegations of serious | 0:05:09 | 0:05:13 | |
mismanagement. A Welsh government report at the time found there were | 0:05:13 | 0:05:17 | |
serious weaknesses in the financial systems and expenses procedures of | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
the organisation. The chief executive then, as now, was Naz | 0:05:20 | 0:05:24 | |
Malik, so some people are asking what has been happening between | 0:05:24 | 0:05:31 | |
then and now. If there has been a cover-up and if people have allowed | 0:05:31 | 0:05:37 | |
him to stay in post when more than one inquiry has said that there are | 0:05:37 | 0:05:41 | |
serious questions and serious concerns about his ability to run | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
the organisation and the transparent -- in a transparent and | 0:05:44 | 0:05:48 | |
accountable way, but there we must know why that has happened and who | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
has decided that he should be allowed to remain in post. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:57 | |
south-east Wales regional equality council does not accept money from | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
AWEMA but many similar organisations do. If the funding | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
for AWEMA has been frozen, other organisations would suffer as well. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:08 | |
They ran a number of stakeholders in this organisation including | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
partners in terms of European funding, very important projects | 0:06:10 | 0:06:15 | |
which are under way to help young people particularly and paint are | 0:06:15 | 0:06:19 | |
not only having to cope with this doubt but now they have had their | 0:06:19 | 0:06:24 | |
funding suspended those projects are in jeopardy and that if | 0:06:24 | 0:06:26 | |
anything underlines by this needs to be resolved as soon as possible | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
and why the Welsh government and the other people involved in this | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
investigation needs to bring this to a conclusion as soon as possible | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
so we can decide finally what the fate of those individuals are. | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
have tried to speak to him at Naz Malik this morning but had not been | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
able to get hold of him. I spoke to him last night on the phone and he | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
said it would not be appropriate to comment on anything while the Welsh | 0:06:47 | 0:06:51 | |
government were investigating, but he did add that once those | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
investigations had concluded he would make, and in due course. But | 0:06:55 | 0:07:01 | |
Naz Malik is not usually so shy. He has been nominated to carry the | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
Olympic flame in the London traded of Olympic Torch Relay. The person | 0:07:04 | 0:07:13 | |
who nominated him was his daughter. That's right, Tegwen Malik. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
No one from Crewe was willing to talk to us on Dragon's Eye this | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
evening. -- AWEMA. Neither was any one from the Welsh government. A | 0:07:21 | 0:07:24 | |
spokesperson told us it would be inappropriate for a minister to | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
comment while a review of allegations was pending, that will | 0:07:27 | 0:07:31 | |
be the third review the Welsh government has instigated into | 0:07:31 | 0:07:35 | |
Crewe since the end of 2002. I'm joined now by the Conservative AM, | 0:07:35 | 0:07:39 | |
Darren Millar, who was the chair of the Assembly's Public Accounts | 0:07:39 | 0:07:45 | |
Committee. Good evening. What do you make of this? It is clear that | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
the investigation into the serious allegations is concluded as soon as | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
possible. Many millions of pounds have been funded to AWEMA over the | 0:07:53 | 0:07:56 | |
years by a different public bodies and the public have got to have | 0:07:56 | 0:08:00 | |
some confidence that that money is being used appropriately. We will | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
come back to the review his second but in terms of the practical | 0:08:04 | 0:08:07 | |
considerations of the major funders apparently freezing the money, do | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
you have concerns about the knock- on effects of that on the groups | 0:08:10 | 0:08:17 | |
that AWEMA funds? I do. There is uncertainty out there. I have been | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
contacted by organisations in North Wales for example under the | 0:08:20 | 0:08:24 | |
Assembly Members have also been contacted and this is a time of | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
uncertainty for all those partners organisations that are there | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
delivering very important programmes which benefit had good | 0:08:29 | 0:08:34 | |
number of people across the country. Returning to the regulation issue, | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
the other side issue, if you like, I understand that you have already | 0:08:38 | 0:08:41 | |
shed your concerns about that with the auditor general? That is right, | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
I wrote to the auditor general soon as I became aware of the serious | 0:08:45 | 0:08:49 | |
allegations that were being made. He is the individual responsible | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
for public money making sure that we are getting good value for | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
taxpayers and of course he is monitoring the situation closely | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
and has been involved in setting the terms of reference for the | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
investigation which is now under way. What about your committee, do | 0:09:02 | 0:09:06 | |
you think it might have a role in looking at this? I am sure it will. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
I know a number of committee members are interested. We want to | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
make sure that taxpayers' funds are protected and we want to make sure | 0:09:13 | 0:09:16 | |
that they are used for the benefit of those people that they should be | 0:09:16 | 0:09:21 | |
used for and not to lie in people's pockets and a think it is important | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
to get to the bottom of these allegations, to find out what has | 0:09:24 | 0:09:26 | |
happened and make sure that taxpayers get the good value for | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
the pound that they deserve. Would you welcome a formal police | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
investigation? I certainly would welcome a formal police | 0:09:33 | 0:09:38 | |
investigation. At the moment we are told South Wales police have been | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
informed of the on going much government investigation but | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
clearly some of these allegations are criminal and nature and I think | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
the police should step in and get involved. I don't think that | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
everybody is entirely confident in the ability of the Welsh government | 0:09:53 | 0:09:55 | |
to conclude its investigations and take the appropriate action | 0:09:55 | 0:10:00 | |
particularly given that two investigations have already taken | 0:10:00 | 0:10:04 | |
place and it appears that the same allegations have been repeated yet | 0:10:04 | 0:10:09 | |
again now in spite of those two investigations. Unit trusts -- you | 0:10:09 | 0:10:12 | |
anticipated my next question, which was how much confidence you have | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
been the effectiveness of what is is sensually a Serb review into | 0:10:16 | 0:10:22 | |
this organisation? It is a third review but this is a joint review | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
between the three organisations who give the vast majority of funding | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
to AWEMA. I think that should give us a bit more confident that things | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
will be done right this time and that if there are any | 0:10:33 | 0:10:37 | |
recommendations they should be followed up and fully implemented | 0:10:37 | 0:10:41 | |
by AWEMA and the other organisations involved. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:44 | |
Historically what is your view of the effectiveness of the oversight | 0:10:44 | 0:10:49 | |
of successive Osh governments in looking at the allegations that | 0:10:49 | 0:10:53 | |
have persisted about AWEMA and its management? Obviously I haven't | 0:10:53 | 0:10:56 | |
been involved in the details of the previous investigations but clearly | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
they found that there were problems which needed to be addressed at | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
AWEMA and it would appear that those same problems have emerged | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
yet again, so I think the Welsh government will have some questions | 0:11:06 | 0:11:10 | |
to answer. Now is not the time to challenge them over those issues. | 0:11:10 | 0:11:13 | |
We have to await the outcome of the current investigation before we do | 0:11:13 | 0:11:18 | |
that. Does it raise any wider concerns in your view about the | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
efficacy of oversight in general or bodies in Wales which spend public | 0:11:21 | 0:11:27 | |
money? I think that there are questions that can be asked about | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
how money is being spent in Wales and an awful lot is given to | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
organisations across the country by grants and we have to make sure | 0:11:34 | 0:11:39 | |
that we get value for money for every pound that is spent, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
particularly in these very difficult economic times in terms | 0:11:41 | 0:11:45 | |
of the finances that are available in the public sector and members of | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
the public will be looking very closely at the outcome of the | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
investigation to AWEMA to see whether there are any lessons that | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
need to be learned. Darren Millar, thank you for joining us. Thank you. | 0:11:55 | 0:12:00 | |
All eyes have been on Scotland this week after Alex Salmond, the First | 0:12:00 | 0:12:03 | |
Minister, published a consultation document outlining his plans for | 0:12:03 | 0:12:10 | |
the independence referendum to be least that is what the Scottish | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
government wants to hold it. The UK government is still questioning why | 0:12:12 | 0:12:15 | |
the boat can't take place sooner. That is not the only point of | 0:12:15 | 0:12:20 | |
difference between the two sides. Brian Meechan has spent the week in | 0:12:20 | 0:12:24 | |
Edinburgh. We know there will be a referendum. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:26 | |
The question the Scottish government wants to ask is a simple | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
one. Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country | 0:12:29 | 0:12:33 | |
and that is where the complications really begin. This week has been a | 0:12:34 | 0:12:43 | |
0:12:44 | 0:12:44 | ||
prologue to the unfolding It is a centuries-old tradition. | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
Burns Night celebrates not only the bursting of the cost Scottish Bard | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
but the country itself. Poetry and music accompany haggis and whisky | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
at events across the globe including this Edinburgh bar. It is | 0:12:56 | 0:12:59 | |
no coincidence that on this most Scottish of days the SNP government | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
launched its plans to hold a referendum on independence. The | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
First Minister even made reference to a Burns's poem in his statement | 0:13:06 | 0:13:12 | |
to MSPs. Perhaps they should be reminded that burns' great hymn to | 0:13:12 | 0:13:16 | |
equality has been aired in this Parliament before. A man is a man | 0:13:16 | 0:13:26 | |
0:13:26 | 0:13:29 | ||
for all that, in 1999. Hundreds worship at his word. For all that | 0:13:29 | 0:13:34 | |
and all that, the man of independent mind looks and laughs | 0:13:34 | 0:13:39 | |
at all that. At West minster even David Cameron mentioned Burns's' | 0:13:39 | 0:13:49 | |
work. Perhaps they should remember Burns's' words. Oh what a panic in | 0:13:49 | 0:13:54 | |
your breast. Alex Salmond pound -- found time to Spar with the Prime | 0:13:54 | 0:13:58 | |
Minister over his grasp of it. are perfectly willing to offer a | 0:13:58 | 0:14:01 | |
friendly gesture elocution lessons on pronunciation if that would | 0:14:01 | 0:14:11 | |
0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | ||
Waverley station in Edinburgh is the main entry point to the capital | 0:14:13 | 0:14:19 | |
by rail. It is named after a novel by the international event Scottish | 0:14:19 | 0:14:26 | |
has a morning at on Princes Street. He is credited as the man who | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
invented Scotland, popularising many myths along the way. But he's | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
been overlooked in his own homeland. In terms of when Scotland is | 0:14:35 | 0:14:39 | |
talking about itself, water scored his left out. There is a sense in | 0:14:39 | 0:14:45 | |
which, as a unionist and a Tory, he cannot be integrated into the story. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:49 | |
So what has caught is dismissed as having a romanticised view of | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
Scotland, draped in tartan. Some argue that even to this day, there | 0:14:54 | 0:14:59 | |
remains a nostalgia and myth that is wrapped up in the current | 0:14:59 | 0:15:04 | |
political climate. It is not a view that the shared by all. There was a | 0:15:04 | 0:15:07 | |
rule that Alex Salmond would have is referendum on the date of the | 0:15:07 | 0:15:10 | |
Battle of Bannockburn. But of course he has not, he has gone | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
beyond that. Scotland has gone be on the haggis and kills and all the | 0:15:14 | 0:15:18 | |
rest of it. Robert Burns is the national poet, that is allowed, but | 0:15:18 | 0:15:25 | |
kills and haggis is not any longer be a factor. It is for tourists. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:29 | |
The Scottish National Party like to flaunt their nationalist | 0:15:29 | 0:15:33 | |
credentials and play on Scotland and Robert Burns, but that is not | 0:15:33 | 0:15:38 | |
central to the campaign. It is the economy, stupid, when it comes to | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
Scotland. They will centre the campaign on their claim that | 0:15:43 | 0:15:47 | |
Scotland will be better off a economically, if Independent. | 0:15:47 | 0:15:51 | |
so waters caught's supporters accept he had a particular view of | 0:15:51 | 0:15:56 | |
the country. He created an identity for Scottish people that would go | 0:15:56 | 0:15:59 | |
global. People recognise Scotland internationally through the | 0:15:59 | 0:16:05 | |
Waverley novels. It is a great boon, but it is also a customs up every | 0:16:05 | 0:16:10 | |
time you see Scrooge make DUP, you have Watters caught to that of | 0:16:10 | 0:16:14 | |
additional scores and as tight fitted -- tight fisted, | 0:16:14 | 0:16:20 | |
parsimonious, slightly intellectual, so that is a mixed blessing. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
Watters court was not a critical to battle with London. He took on the | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
UK Treasury when they tried to abolish Scottish back rows, and he | 0:16:26 | 0:16:32 | |
won. Perhaps a useful lesson for another Scot in his dealings with | 0:16:32 | 0:16:42 | |
the UK jazz well over the economy. Would an independent Scotland be | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
able to use sterling? The UK government was a bit silly in | 0:16:46 | 0:16:51 | |
saying that it was not able to use the Prime. It is not be a gift, | 0:16:51 | 0:16:55 | |
either way. Once we get past these debates on process, that is when, | 0:16:55 | 0:17:01 | |
hopefully, we will see deeper debates on the substance of what | 0:17:01 | 0:17:08 | |
independence would include. cause will be asked in autumn 2014 | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
whether they want independence. The Scottish government has also | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
decided to consult on whether there should be the second question | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
offering substantially more powers for Holyrood, including over income | 0:17:18 | 0:17:24 | |
tax and welfare, but remaining in the UK. My gut instinct tells we | 0:17:24 | 0:17:29 | |
will end up with one question but Alex Salmond are such a canny | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
politician that I would not rule it out completely, and it would be a | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
civil auction for him. Ahead of announcing his plans, Alex Salmond | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
went to the Scottish storytelling Centre, where children listen to | 0:17:41 | 0:17:46 | |
the famous Robert Burns's poem, Tam Roshan do. The Prime Minister -- | 0:17:46 | 0:17:51 | |
the First Minister wants to lower the voting age to allow 16 and 17- | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
year-olds to cast their ballot. That is opposed by UK ministers. | 0:17:55 | 0:18:00 | |
There have been protests from one expatriate but only scores living | 0:18:00 | 0:18:06 | |
board. Supporters court is being credited as the man who sold the | 0:18:06 | 0:18:10 | |
union and the monarchy to this cause, and Scotland and the Sports | 0:18:10 | 0:18:15 | |
to the world. As the international independence this week it would be | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
interesting to know what the man himself would have made of it. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:24 | |
had an idea about justice and how the country should enter react. He | 0:18:24 | 0:18:29 | |
would be asking why we still do not have an answer to the west Lothian | 0:18:29 | 0:18:33 | |
question. At the moment, there is unfairness, built into the union, | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
and that is towards England, not Scotland. It could potentially make | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
things more difficult for Wales within a UK context, of Scotland | 0:18:42 | 0:18:46 | |
were to become an independent country. It might make it more | 0:18:46 | 0:18:52 | |
difficult to have a voice for the devolved administrations. The there | 0:18:52 | 0:18:59 | |
will, no doubt, be more unexpected turns in the plot, as Scotland | 0:18:59 | 0:19:04 | |
raced s you story, I head. My thanks to the council and the | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
Writers' Museum for electing us do some filming with then. I am joined | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
by a few men who have written more than a few chapters on Scottish | 0:19:12 | 0:19:16 | |
politics, Brian Taylor, the political editor of BBC Scotland, | 0:19:16 | 0:19:22 | |
and Brian Cochrane. There is no coincidence that this was launched | 0:19:22 | 0:19:28 | |
on Burns Night. One of the people will look at was supporters caught, | 0:19:28 | 0:19:35 | |
who created a Scottish identity, probably more than most, but... | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
was accused of inventing a fictional Scotland. I am a huge fan | 0:19:40 | 0:19:48 | |
of supporters court. He was a great writer. Also he had a great talent | 0:19:48 | 0:19:55 | |
for poetry. There are two lines that are apposite, for this, first, | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive. I | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
would not accuse politicians of line, but this issue of cultural | 0:20:03 | 0:20:08 | |
identity is at the core of this. The sense of being Scottish is a | 0:20:08 | 0:20:12 | |
given in Scotland, across the political divide. Nobody disputes | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
that. It is whether that requires independence to thrive, or whether | 0:20:16 | 0:20:23 | |
it can thrive within a devolved structure within the United Kingdom. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
A tangled web, this is becoming ever more tangled. It is not a | 0:20:28 | 0:20:32 | |
simple yes-no answer to independence. The First Minister | 0:20:32 | 0:20:37 | |
Alex Salmond is presenting it as a simple question but first of all, | 0:20:37 | 0:20:44 | |
it is not legal, and people say that he wants to get. There is a | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
long way to go on the wording of the question and even to make it | 0:20:48 | 0:20:52 | |
legal. We have never had the problem in Scotland with identity. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:57 | |
We're all Scottish. With a nationalist, Unionist, Labour or | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
whatever. We do not have the language problem that the Welsh | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
have, not really. There are only 60,000 native Gaelic speakers. That | 0:21:06 | 0:21:11 | |
is not an issue in Scotland. With a were nationalists or Unionists is a | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
big issue. We have this rather odd constitutional second question that | 0:21:16 | 0:21:21 | |
is being talked about. In practical terms, how can that work? What | 0:21:21 | 0:21:30 | |
happened if you add 51% going for independence and 75% going for Devo | 0:21:30 | 0:21:38 | |
Max? It would have to be done as a paving question saying, do you want | 0:21:38 | 0:21:48 | |
0:21:48 | 0:21:54 | ||
a change at all, and if you do, do you want independence or do you | 0:21:54 | 0:22:03 | |
when they should be seen as competing. It is likely to gain the | 0:22:03 | 0:22:09 | |
question because that is the one that the UK Government will give | 0:22:09 | 0:22:12 | |
the endorsement do. Alex Salmond, you can almost hear him saying that | 0:22:12 | 0:22:17 | |
my rivals prevented you, the Scottish people, from having the | 0:22:17 | 0:22:21 | |
wider opportunity of dealing with all the options on the ballot paper. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:27 | |
I wanted to give it to you. But, eventually, we will come down to a | 0:22:27 | 0:22:31 | |
ballot in 2014 and they think it will be a yes-no choice on | 0:22:31 | 0:22:37 | |
independence but we are very far from that point, right now. Alex | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
Salmond is known as a master tactician. Is this another tactic | 0:22:40 | 0:22:46 | |
on his part to say that we are not getting let to do what you want to | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
do by London? He has his excuses already. He knows he will lose on | 0:22:50 | 0:22:53 | |
the independence question so he wants two questions. This has been | 0:22:53 | 0:22:57 | |
going on since we were board in short trousers, and the opinion | 0:22:57 | 0:23:03 | |
polls have hardly moved. About 30% support independence, it has never | 0:23:03 | 0:23:07 | |
moved in 40 years. I suspect it will not move after another two- | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
and-a-half years of debate. He has got his excuses ready. He wants the | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
second question as a consolation prize but he is not going to get it, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:23 | |
and that is the line in the sand, the red line, yon Bitch -- beyond | 0:23:23 | 0:23:30 | |
which no one will go. One of the things we have seen is this dispute | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
with the UK Government about the currency goes of George Osborne | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
said that Scotland would not be allowed to use sterling. They | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
cannot stop that from happening. Alex Salmond has made that point | 0:23:42 | 0:23:50 | |
rather vigorously, that sterling is a tradable currency. There are 67 | 0:23:50 | 0:23:52 | |
nations that are either in a monetary union or informal | 0:23:53 | 0:23:59 | |
relations. The bigger issue is of course the Bank of England would be | 0:23:59 | 0:24:04 | |
determining interest rates were Scotland. That issue was harder | 0:24:04 | 0:24:14 | |
0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | ||
that Holyrood today. -- was hammered out at Holyrood. Of course, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:22 | |
this is not just a question for Scotland. It has a massive impact | 0:24:23 | 0:24:26 | |
on the governors of the UK as a whole, including Wales. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:36 | |
understand why people in Wales are concerned, especially about Devo | 0:24:36 | 0:24:43 | |
Max. I think the straightforward independence question will be lost | 0:24:43 | 0:24:47 | |
by the nationalists. But all the parts of the UK need to worry about | 0:24:47 | 0:24:56 | |
the second part. What happens if we get Devo Max and Alex Salmond guess | 0:24:56 | 0:25:06 | |
it'll 0.5% corporation tax? Do we have different corporation tax all | 0:25:06 | 0:25:16 | |
0:25:16 | 0:25:16 | ||
about? Alex Salmond is keen to form a tripartite alliance with Wales | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
and Northern Ireland when it comes to putting pressure a London. The | 0:25:19 | 0:25:25 | |
situation in Scotland would be used by Carwyn Jones, has a lever to | 0:25:25 | 0:25:28 | |
Prize Model of concessions for the good and sensible people of Wales. | 0:25:28 | 0:25:33 | |
We see that are already starting to happen. Thank you both. That is | 0:25:33 | 0:25:38 | |
pretty much it from Edinburgh for now at least. I suspect we will be | 0:25:38 | 0:25:45 | |
-- we will be back talking about this up until autumn, 2014. We go | 0:25:45 | 0:25:51 | |
speak to our political editor about that. I like the random bursts of | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
applause going on in the background there. I think we should have this | 0:25:55 | 0:26:04 | |
in the studio you, it would be encouraging! -- the studio, here. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:09 | |
What has gone on in Scotland has affected the debate between the | 0:26:09 | 0:26:15 | |
countries. Yes, it was interesting to here E.ON Jones saying that it | 0:26:15 | 0:26:20 | |
will become leader and week when in 2016 and Twenty20, that should be | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
enough of a trigger to have a referendum on independence in Wales, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:30 | |
too. David Ellis Thomas responded by saying that there is no point in | 0:26:30 | 0:26:35 | |
having that in 10, 15 or 20 years' time, get on with the job, use the | 0:26:35 | 0:26:39 | |
powers we have got now, and then deliver those sort of things | 0:26:39 | 0:26:45 | |
afterwards. The battle is certainly going to heat up. What is happening | 0:26:45 | 0:26:49 | |
in Scotland is bound to have some sort of effect. We will talk about | 0:26:49 | 0:26:54 | |
how the leadership race this shipping up in a second. It is a | 0:26:54 | 0:26:59 | |
difficult question to answer, so forgive me, but, is what is going | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
on as Gordon going to make it easier for the winning candidate in | 0:27:02 | 0:27:07 | |
the Nationalist Party of Wales or will they suffer by comparison? | 0:27:07 | 0:27:11 | |
will be difficult just by comparison. Alex Salmond is winning | 0:27:11 | 0:27:16 | |
prizes left, right and centre. What you heard yesterday was that he was | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
going to the bigger stroke of luck to pull this off but you did not | 0:27:19 | 0:27:25 | |
bet against Alex Salmond. And nationalist leader in Wales could | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
suffer by comparison unless they can land the same sort of punches. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
But they would not be leaving at a stagnant time. Their job would be | 0:27:35 | 0:27:40 | |
to make sure that things land and the right places, for Wales. What | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
about the state of the leadership race itself know that nominations | 0:27:43 | 0:27:49 | |
are close? We have four candidates, and we kept a living in hope that | 0:27:49 | 0:27:54 | |
something would happen. Four very different personalities. Four | 0:27:54 | 0:27:58 | |
people who will take the party in different directions, to the left, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:03 | |
perhaps back into coalition with Labour, towards independence, | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
towards more consensual politics. It is a real choice and not just | 0:28:07 | 0:28:13 | |
because they are all very different people. The party wants this to get | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
out to the hustings, and for people to discuss this, so that when the | 0:28:17 | 0:28:24 | |
new leader is elected, in March, things can move on. I wonder if the | 0:28:24 | 0:28:29 |