Browse content similar to 02/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, a special programme on Awema. He's a bully, he's a mean | 0:00:01 | 0:00:07 | |
bully. And he would try to intimidate you and if he finds you | 0:00:07 | 0:00:11 | |
are intimidated easily, he would use it over and over again. | 0:00:11 | 0:00:14 | |
staff member's opinion of the Chief Executive Naz Malik, based on her | 0:00:14 | 0:00:24 | |
0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | ||
experience of working at Awema. Good evening. There's further | 0:00:27 | 0:00:30 | |
turmoil tonight at Wales' foremost charity working with minority | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
ethnic communities. Dragon's Eye can reveal allegations of bullying | 0:00:34 | 0:00:36 | |
and harassment at the All Wales Ethnic Minority Association, or | 0:00:36 | 0:00:40 | |
Awema. Former and current employees have | 0:00:40 | 0:00:42 | |
spoken to tonight's programme about complaints they have made against | 0:00:42 | 0:00:45 | |
two of the charity's bosses - complaints they say have not been | 0:00:45 | 0:00:55 | |
0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | ||
properly investigated or resolved. Here's Arwyn Jones. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
Awema Crowe has been in the headlines for allegations made | 0:01:01 | 0:01:07 | |
against her boss, Naz Malik. -- At the boss. But what was life like | 0:01:08 | 0:01:16 | |
for the staff? For one member, it was very clear. We were segregated, | 0:01:16 | 0:01:23 | |
there was the Future Jobs Fund and there was staff. When it came to | 0:01:23 | 0:01:27 | |
lunch time, we could not sit together. We were told to sit on | 0:01:27 | 0:01:34 | |
our table and they sat on another table. He is a bully, he is a mean | 0:01:34 | 0:01:40 | |
a bully and he would try to intimidate you. And if he found you | 0:01:40 | 0:01:45 | |
intimidated easily, he would use it over and over again. And I think he | 0:01:45 | 0:01:48 | |
likes being a man of power, he would like to have power over | 0:01:48 | 0:01:54 | |
people. In October last year, several members of a charity | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
Macro's staff wrote letters of grievance against the Chief | 0:01:58 | 0:02:03 | |
Executive Naz Malik. They also complained about his daughter, the | 0:02:03 | 0:02:08 | |
operations manager of Awema Crowe, seen here as a -- during her time | 0:02:08 | 0:02:18 | |
0:02:18 | 0:02:19 | ||
as a squash player -- Awema. There are accusations that 14 young | 0:02:19 | 0:02:24 | |
people who work at Awema were regularly bullied and intimidated. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:28 | |
Naseibah Al-Jeffery Was one of them. She claims that Future Jobs Fund | 0:02:28 | 0:02:34 | |
staff had to sit and deed differed -- separately, had to use different | 0:02:34 | 0:02:41 | |
toilet and pay �1 per week to use the water in the office. We saw | 0:02:41 | 0:02:44 | |
people from the Future Jobs Fund getting fired in front of us, so we | 0:02:44 | 0:02:48 | |
knew how easy it was for them to get rid of us. When we were told we | 0:02:48 | 0:02:58 | |
0:02:58 | 0:02:58 | ||
were not allowed to do this or that, it was something that we had to | 0:02:58 | 0:03:03 | |
keep quiet about, because it was either that or our jobs. And not | 0:03:03 | 0:03:08 | |
others wanted to go back. It was entirely part-time staff who were | 0:03:08 | 0:03:13 | |
alarmed that the treatment. -- it wasn't only. Full-time staff are | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
also disappointed that their complaints didn't lead to the | 0:03:15 | 0:03:20 | |
formal suspension of Naz Malik. One agreed to be interviewed only if we | 0:03:20 | 0:03:25 | |
disguised their identity. It is sad to say that up to this day, they | 0:03:25 | 0:03:29 | |
can carry on intimidating staff and bullying staff and it is | 0:03:29 | 0:03:33 | |
increasingly difficult for staff to continue in their work. It is | 0:03:33 | 0:03:37 | |
detrimental to the charity's work. People look at Awema and think this | 0:03:37 | 0:03:43 | |
is probably have all charities are run. And that is what instigated | 0:03:43 | 0:03:45 | |
the independent report we discussed last week, the accusations of | 0:03:45 | 0:03:51 | |
bullying. That report also included accusations of financial | 0:03:51 | 0:03:56 | |
irregularities against Naz Malik. The report recommended that both he | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
and his daughter be suspended pending further disciplinary action. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
That didn't happen and they were both issued with a written warning | 0:04:03 | 0:04:07 | |
from the new chairman of trustees at Awema, Dr Rita Austin. The | 0:04:07 | 0:04:11 | |
member of staff we spoke to said the good name of Awema would | 0:04:11 | 0:04:17 | |
continue to decline unless they were suspended from their posts. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
All the money we got was meant to go and help people from the ethnic | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
minority community and the damage to ethnic minority communities and | 0:04:25 | 0:04:29 | |
individuals is quite big. The organisation will not be able to | 0:04:29 | 0:04:35 | |
survive with the Malik family in power. It is time for at stake -- | 0:04:35 | 0:04:40 | |
outsiders to step in. We showed the interviews and letters to an | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
employment lawyer. investigation into the grievances, | 0:04:43 | 0:04:47 | |
as opposed to the other allegations, was any conducted on a very | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
preliminary basis. The recommendation that the independent | 0:04:51 | 0:04:54 | |
investigator has made is that further investigations into the | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
culture of the organisation and the grievances raised by staff are | 0:04:57 | 0:05:02 | |
undertaken. He has also recommended that the two people who are at the | 0:05:02 | 0:05:06 | |
centre of the allegations are suspended. That is entirely in | 0:05:06 | 0:05:10 | |
accordance with the ACAS code of practice, because what you would | 0:05:10 | 0:05:15 | |
look to do is where there are allegations of intimidation, is | 0:05:15 | 0:05:19 | |
removed a potential perpetrators, so that you can really get to the | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
nuts and bolts and get this -- the staff to speak openly. One former | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
trustee, who resigned following recent events, says investigations | 0:05:28 | 0:05:32 | |
need to move more swiftly. Trustees sought legal advice and were told | 0:05:32 | 0:05:37 | |
by a leading law firm to suspend Naz Malik, pending a disciplinary | 0:05:37 | 0:05:42 | |
procedure. We agreed again not to identify the trustee. I am amazed, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
frankly. Had this been any other organisation, things would have | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
moved swiftly and nothing is said to be open. These are public bodies | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
with public money and transparency must be there. Why haven't any | 0:05:54 | 0:05:58 | |
board members or former board members been interviewed? Century | 0:05:58 | 0:06:02 | |
large our report to the police and the Welsh Assembly government -- | 0:06:02 | 0:06:07 | |
since we lost our report, nothing has happened. One Assembly Member | 0:06:07 | 0:06:11 | |
who has been contacted by former Awema staff says a police | 0:06:11 | 0:06:15 | |
investigation is now the any way to clear-up the matter. I have written | 0:06:15 | 0:06:20 | |
to the police, I have asked them to look into the allegations, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
particularly in light of the fact that trustees have not been | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
contacted. That is remiss of the Welsh Government, who are leading | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
the ongoing investigation, and let's not forget, there have been | 0:06:30 | 0:06:33 | |
two other investigations already into this organisation. The public | 0:06:33 | 0:06:39 | |
need to have money -- confident that their money is being treated | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
probably by the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government is | 0:06:43 | 0:06:45 | |
investigating all of the allegations. In the meantime, Naz | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
Malik says it would not be appropriate for him to comment on | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
the allegations against him. The Welsh Government will update | 0:06:52 | 0:06:59 | |
Assembly Members on Monday. Last week, we revealed that Awema's | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
funders, including the last government, had suspended funding | 0:07:03 | 0:07:07 | |
pending the review, but just a job there were memories about some of | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
the other allegations last week. -- jog our memories. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:15 | |
We were using the same report written by Paul Dunn, where he | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
makes the allegations of bullying and some financial allegations, | 0:07:18 | 0:07:24 | |
financial irregularities. One of those allegations is that Naz Malik | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
used the charity money, public money, to pay off credit card debts. | 0:07:28 | 0:07:34 | |
He had already mated to that, but Paul Dunn made further -- further | 0:07:34 | 0:07:38 | |
recommendations. -- admitted that. He recommended that Naz Malik be | 0:07:38 | 0:07:44 | |
suspended while a disciplinary hearing was on going and it didn't | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
happen and Dr Rita Austin, she has today written to the Charity | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
Commission and in that letter, she absolutely slates Paul Dunn's | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
report, saying it is a shoddy piece of work, saying it is lacking in | 0:07:55 | 0:07:59 | |
evidence for many of the financial allegations. She is also very | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
critical of some of the trustees of Awema. We will be hearing from have | 0:08:04 | 0:08:08 | |
very shortly. I did speak to Paul Dunn, the author of the report, | 0:08:08 | 0:08:13 | |
which was commissioned by the trustees, before Rita Austin was | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
appointed chair, and I asked for his reaction of her criticism of | 0:08:16 | 0:08:22 | |
his work as a shoddy, unfocused and inconclusive. It is a shame she | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
doesn't speak her mind! First, you cannot judge it by its wrapper. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:33 | |
Secondly, she doesn't know what my brief was, so I am not sure why she | 0:08:33 | 0:08:38 | |
makes that comment. She also confuses two things, I think. The | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
reality is I was commissioned by one of the trustees to do a | 0:08:42 | 0:08:46 | |
sufficient investigation, to make a judgment about whether action was | 0:08:46 | 0:08:51 | |
necessary, so I was not asked to investigate in great detail all of | 0:08:51 | 0:08:54 | |
the allegations that had been made. I certainly could not have done | 0:08:54 | 0:08:59 | |
that in a couple of weeks. So you were looking to see if there was a | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
case to answer, is that the gist of it? Absolutely, and when Rita | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
Austin says I don't have any evidence, one of the things I have | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
that evidence is not only statement made by staff and statements from | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
the interviews I had with them, but I have actually got a recording | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
which is over 3.5 hours long of my interview with the chief executive, | 0:09:18 | 0:09:23 | |
in which he makes a whole series of comments and admissions. I think | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
that counts as evidence. Why hadn't she didn't have that evidence so | 0:09:27 | 0:09:33 | |
she can probably look at the foundations of your recommendations, | 0:09:33 | 0:09:37 | |
which are very serious for the future of the Malik family? They | 0:09:37 | 0:09:42 | |
are, and I am very sorry that the Awema staff, partners and people | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
who benefit from the services have been affected the way that they are, | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
and it is a shame that some of the trustees are being tried used in | 0:09:49 | 0:09:55 | |
the way that they have been. traduced. Why don't you give her | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
your evidence? Firstly, it has been alleged that there was a bit of a | 0:10:00 | 0:10:02 | |
coup and she was brought in contrary to the laws and | 0:10:02 | 0:10:07 | |
regulations that govern Awema. disputes that. She might disputed, | 0:10:07 | 0:10:13 | |
but I think it is quite clear from the information that I have that it | 0:10:13 | 0:10:17 | |
is the case. But even if you put that to one side, I was concerned | 0:10:17 | 0:10:21 | |
that there might be a whitewash, and I think my concern has been | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
borne out by what has happened so far. So for example, Rita Austin | 0:10:26 | 0:10:32 | |
says in her report, I believe, that the Chief Executive was guilty of | 0:10:32 | 0:10:38 | |
gross misconduct. But he has had a warning. I am sure if you are to | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
ask most employers and indeed most employees what happens to people | 0:10:40 | 0:10:45 | |
who are guilty of gross misconduct, after investigation and a hearing | 0:10:45 | 0:10:50 | |
it, they go down the road. We will raise that issue with Rita Austin | 0:10:50 | 0:10:53 | |
later in the programme, but in terms of why you are not handing | 0:10:53 | 0:10:57 | |
over the evidence, are you telling me that you are not doing that | 0:10:57 | 0:11:05 | |
the right thing with it? -- you do not trust her. I have been asked by | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
one sot of -- one set of trustees, who have now resigned because of | 0:11:08 | 0:11:13 | |
what is happening at Awema, to do a job and I have done that job and I | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
will and that information other, the information I have, to the | 0:11:16 | 0:11:20 | |
people who are conducting informations. -- investigations. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
Why don't you give her a copy? hasn't asked for that. She may have | 0:11:24 | 0:11:29 | |
changed her mind but Rita Austin has told me she wants to have me | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
return all copies of documents, policies, recordings, everything to | 0:11:33 | 0:11:39 | |
her. I am not going to do it. ask you about the large government | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
review into the allegations surrounding Awema? -- Welsh | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
Government. Has anybody from the Welsh Government contacted due to | 0:11:46 | 0:11:51 | |
ask you to supply them with the evidence you say you have? Not yet, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
hopefully they will. A has anyone from South Wales Police? Nobody | 0:11:56 | 0:12:00 | |
from any organisation. Nobody has been in touch with me apart from | 0:12:00 | 0:12:06 | |
your good self, and other in media outlets. I am grateful to you for | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
talking to us on Dragon's Eye. Paul Dunn, there. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
Rita Austin was appointed as the Chair of Awema in December last | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
year. She served a previous term as Chair of the organisation at the | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
beginning of the last decade, leaving in 2006. No-one from Awema | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
has spoken publicly since the recent allegations came to light | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
because a Welsh Government review is taking place. The new Chair has | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
agreed to appear on Dragon's Eye on the basis that we discuss the | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
measures she's taken since her appointment to address the | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
allegations. Measures which she outlined in a statement this week | 0:12:36 | 0:12:43 | |
to the Charity Commission. Rita Austin, thank you for joining us in | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
a very cold Dragon's Eye studio, for give us do that. Let's start | 0:12:48 | 0:12:54 | |
with your comments about Paul Dunn and his report. You are savagely | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
critical of that report in your submission to the Charity | 0:12:57 | 0:13:02 | |
Commission, why is that? I think the statements I have made to the | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
Charity Commission called into question the governance that the | 0:13:07 | 0:13:12 | |
previous trustees exercised in commissioning this report. At have | 0:13:12 | 0:13:17 | |
asked, because I cannot find any offers, for a letter of appointment | 0:13:17 | 0:13:21 | |
-- I have asked. I had asked for terms of reference, details of | 0:13:21 | 0:13:27 | |
contract, even the curriculum vitae. I have not been able to find these | 0:13:27 | 0:13:30 | |
items in the office. I have asked Paul Dunn to supply a copy of them | 0:13:30 | 0:13:35 | |
and they are not there. This is not the proper way to commission a | 0:13:35 | 0:13:41 | |
report. What has happened, in effect, is that a person about whom | 0:13:41 | 0:13:46 | |
little is known to most of the trustees at the time has been | 0:13:46 | 0:13:54 | |
allowed access to very case sensitive material in Awema and I | 0:13:54 | 0:13:59 | |
don't think that is permissible without comment. I can say further, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:06 | |
in terms of these actual -- this actual report... E say on several | 0:14:06 | 0:14:12 | |
occasions in your statement that he provides no evidence to support his | 0:14:12 | 0:14:15 | |
call for the immediate suspension of Naz Malik, pending a | 0:14:15 | 0:14:20 | |
disciplinary inquiry. Yet the trustees took legal advice on Paul | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
Dunn's report and the lawyers took a different view to yours. The | 0:14:24 | 0:14:28 | |
lawyer has said that there was sufficient evidence in Paul Dunn's | 0:14:29 | 0:14:34 | |
investigation to warrant an immediate suspension and that their | 0:14:34 | 0:14:38 | |
advice was that such a suspension would be appropriate. Why did you | 0:14:38 | 0:14:47 | |
I am obliged, as I was coming in as chair again - and I was asked to | 0:14:47 | 0:14:51 | |
come in as chair because several of the Trustees at that time were | 0:14:51 | 0:14:57 | |
appalled by the lack of leadership and focus being shown, in terms of | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
allegations to which the chief executive had already responded. I | 0:15:00 | 0:15:07 | |
hope we will come back to that in a minute. Let me just deal with your.. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:14 | |
I am obliged to consider the advice of solicitors. When I got into the | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
chair, we looked at the advice from solicitors and we did give it | 0:15:17 | 0:15:23 | |
consideration, due consideration. But you dismissed it in the end? | 0:15:23 | 0:15:28 | |
don't think it is fair to say that I dismissed it. You chose not to | 0:15:28 | 0:15:33 | |
follow it. I chose not to follow that aspect. That is a serious | 0:15:33 | 0:15:36 | |
decision for a chair who has just come in and is dealing with serious | 0:15:36 | 0:15:42 | |
allegations. Of course it is a serious position to take and I take | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
my duties extremely seriously, which is more than can be said for | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
the trustees previously. I take the decisions that I took in the light | 0:15:50 | 0:15:56 | |
of knowing that the outcome of suspending the chief executive, or | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
indeed anybody else, and might I say here that there is no evidence | 0:16:00 | 0:16:05 | |
ever been brought to substantiate allegations against the operations | 0:16:05 | 0:16:09 | |
director, indeed the solicitor has asked me to ask Paul Dunn to | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
provide substantiating evidence and so far he has not. We are not | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
talking about that at the moment. Let me come back to what you have | 0:16:17 | 0:16:21 | |
asked me and I will try and answer your questions. In terms of the | 0:16:21 | 0:16:25 | |
advice that I was given by the solicitor, trustees were given by | 0:16:25 | 0:16:29 | |
the solicitor, had we done as she had advised, it would have incurred | 0:16:29 | 0:16:37 | |
the charity an enormous extra expense. I could not justify that, | 0:16:37 | 0:16:45 | |
on the very strong grounds that I already had, as had the trustees, a | 0:16:45 | 0:16:51 | |
clear admission from Mr Malik as to the business over the credit card. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:59 | |
More than that, the trustees, on 18th November meeting, had exactly | 0:16:59 | 0:17:03 | |
that admission. Forgive me, but I have to push you on this. You say | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
the reason for not following the legal advice was that it would | 0:17:07 | 0:17:11 | |
engage the charity in unnecessary expense. To be honest, I find it | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
extraordinary that, when lawyers are consulted, lawyers who are | 0:17:15 | 0:17:22 | |
experts in their field and whose obligation is primarily the correct | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
operating of an organisation which handles millions of pounds of | 0:17:25 | 0:17:29 | |
public money, and when they say to you, we agree that there appears to | 0:17:29 | 0:17:33 | |
be sufficient evidence within the preliminary investigation by Paul | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
Dunn to support an allegation of gross misconduct on the part of Naz | 0:17:36 | 0:17:41 | |
Malik, according to your internal disciplinary Pollock -- policy and | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
procedure, you should consider immediate suspension, and our | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
advice is that such a suspension would be appropriate. I must | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
confess, I find it extraordinary that you chose to disregard that on | 0:17:52 | 0:17:59 | |
the basis that it would be split -- too expensive. Well, you are | 0:17:59 | 0:18:02 | |
perfectly entitled to your opinion. I have to make these judgments on | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
behalf of the charity as I see fit. And of course I take responsibility | 0:18:06 | 0:18:11 | |
for the decision. However, can I just add on that, it is my | 0:18:11 | 0:18:15 | |
understanding that the solicitor was not provided with, by the | 0:18:15 | 0:18:23 | |
trustees at that time, may I finish? Briefly, if you could, | 0:18:23 | 0:18:28 | |
because there are other points. solicitor was not provided with Mr | 0:18:28 | 0:18:34 | |
Malik was no rebuttal. There was his admission. I want to talk to | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
about that now. And I have no doubt that his such -- admission was | 0:18:39 | 0:18:44 | |
sufficient to warrant her advice. That is the admission that he used | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
an advance on expenses, the charity money, public money, to pay off his | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
credit card bill. And in your statement to the Charity Commission | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
you say that that amounts to gross misconduct. Why did you not sack | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
him? Well, you might ask the question, why are the trustees, who | 0:19:01 | 0:19:05 | |
are now complaining, did not sack him at the time? Why did you not | 0:19:05 | 0:19:11 | |
sack him? Excuse me, you ask me questions... My question is why did | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
you not sack him? I did not sack him because I felt it unnecessary | 0:19:16 | 0:19:20 | |
to move immediately to disciplinary action. But I have to say that at | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
the July AGM, in the presence of all of the trustees who are | 0:19:23 | 0:19:26 | |
currently complaining, it was properly disclosed in the minutes | 0:19:26 | 0:19:31 | |
of that July AGM that the chief executive was holding what is | 0:19:31 | 0:19:37 | |
called a cash float. You admit it is gross misconduct in this report. | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
The trustees, on 18th November, were also faced with that very same | 0:19:41 | 0:19:47 | |
allegation. In this report to the Charity Commission, you say it | 0:19:47 | 0:19:51 | |
amounts to gross misconduct. You have guidelines in AWEMA that say | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
that the normal punishment for gross misconduct would be summary | 0:19:54 | 0:19:59 | |
dismissal. Why did you disregard your own policies and procedures in | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
deciding not to dismiss the chief executive who you admit is guilty | 0:20:02 | 0:20:07 | |
of gross misconduct? You might well ask why the trustees... I am asking | 0:20:07 | 0:20:12 | |
why you did not do it. I'm sorry, Mrs Evans, I know you wish to | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
pursue your own questions but I am here to speak to the statement I | 0:20:16 | 0:20:21 | |
made to the Charity Commission. That is what we are talking about. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:27 | |
What I have in my statement to the Charity Commission is also deep | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
concerns about the governance of the trustees, who suddenly wished | 0:20:30 | 0:20:35 | |
to discuss matters that I have done when they themselves did not take | 0:20:35 | 0:20:40 | |
any action on the admitted misconduct of the chief executive. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
You have already told me you think they are incompetent, so why when | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
you came in did you not say, I think this is gross misconduct, as | 0:20:48 | 0:20:51 | |
you said to the Charity Commission, it amounted to gross misconduct, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
and yet you did not sack and chief executive who you said had | 0:20:55 | 0:21:02 | |
committed gross misconduct. And when the procedures and guidelines | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
of the organisation say he would normally be sacked if convicted or | 0:21:05 | 0:21:10 | |
determined to have admitted gross misconduct. I don't think I cannot | 0:21:10 | 0:21:15 | |
see you any better than I have. me ask you another question. I am | 0:21:15 | 0:21:20 | |
sorry, I will finish this answer. It was in a properly convened | 0:21:20 | 0:21:25 | |
disciplinary panel meeting of three trustees, including myself. We | 0:21:25 | 0:21:32 | |
heard not only his admission, we heard also of the fact that the | 0:21:32 | 0:21:36 | |
previous trustees had dealt with this. Why would they take an | 0:21:36 | 0:21:40 | |
instruction from you, as to admit in this report, for Mr Malik to | 0:21:40 | 0:21:42 | |
repay public money he had inappropriately taken to pay off | 0:21:42 | 0:21:46 | |
his credit card? What sort of chief executive of the charity needs to | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
be told to repay money has taken in appropriately to pay his credit | 0:21:50 | 0:21:58 | |
card? Look, he does not need to be told that. But use a... | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
heaven's sake, Mrs Evans, you either allow me to answer your | 0:22:03 | 0:22:06 | |
questions... Please answer the question, but you seem to be | 0:22:06 | 0:22:10 | |
disputing what is written here so I am trying to clarify that. I will | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
now take breath and try to answer you before you interrupt me again. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:19 | |
This admission was made at the July ATM. The trustees then took no | 0:22:19 | 0:22:26 | |
notice. This admission was made, and his rebuttal, was made to the | 0:22:26 | 0:22:30 | |
November meeting of the board. The trustees took no action. I came | 0:22:30 | 0:22:37 | |
into the chair on 16th December, and on 19th December, a Friday to | 0:22:37 | 0:22:42 | |
Monday, I took disciplinary action against him, having told with the | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
agreement of my trustees. The trustees, having listened to the | 0:22:46 | 0:22:51 | |
evidence, and all of that, having heard from the chief executives | 0:22:51 | 0:22:57 | |
that he had offered to repay that many a long time ago, that he had a | 0:22:57 | 0:23:01 | |
third at the AGM, it was properly disclosed, the trustees could have | 0:23:01 | 0:23:07 | |
instructed him then to do it -- that he had offered, and he wished | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
himself to call in the police as soon as the allegations were made | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
and the honorary officers denied it. I cannot help you any further. That | 0:23:14 | 0:23:18 | |
was my judgment. And I am really sorry that in this interview, which | 0:23:18 | 0:23:24 | |
I came to undertake to speak to my statement to the Charity Commission. | 0:23:24 | 0:23:27 | |
That is what we have been discussing. You have looked at one | 0:23:27 | 0:23:31 | |
aspect of it. I know that you have to leave it there and I am really | 0:23:31 | 0:23:36 | |
sorry that the good work that Main does is not being done. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:42 | |
Date for joining us. -- AWEMA. Up the allegations have raised | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
concern about the oversight of an organisation that spends millions | 0:23:45 | 0:23:49 | |
of public money. This is not the first time there have been | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
allegations of management misconduct. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:56 | |
There are currently two reviews into AWEMA at governmental level. | 0:23:56 | 0:24:00 | |
One is a joint review with the Wales international funding office | 0:24:00 | 0:24:04 | |
on the second is a government review. The Minister for Finance | 0:24:04 | 0:24:07 | |
told Assembly members about the progress of the latter. This raises | 0:24:07 | 0:24:17 | |
issues about the propriety and proper use of public funds. I can | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
assure you that the field work has been completed, the assessment is | 0:24:21 | 0:24:25 | |
being made a moment of the investigation and officials are | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
aiming to finalise a report in agreement with the Big Lottery Fund, | 0:24:28 | 0:24:33 | |
of course, who engaged him that investigation, during the week | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
commencing 6th February. But many of those who have made allegations | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
of financial impropriety have told us no one from the Welsh Government | 0:24:39 | 0:24:44 | |
has even spoken to them. I am concerned that the recommendation | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
originally put to the board to suspended chief executive was not | 0:24:47 | 0:24:53 | |
implemented. Clearly, if employees are coming out now and effectively | 0:24:53 | 0:24:56 | |
it is an open rebellion, that decision has to be revisited | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
because we cannot have a situation where we had such an important | 0:24:59 | 0:25:04 | |
organisation with all of its funds suspended, staff in open the vote | 0:25:04 | 0:25:10 | |
and with the work that it is doing effectively on hold. -- staff in | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
open the vote. Somebody needs to get a grip. Ministers have refused | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
to be interviewed on the programme about the oversight of AWEMA and | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
the millions that it spends. They say it would not be appropriate | 0:25:21 | 0:25:26 | |
until the review is completed. Earlier this week, Wales' top civil | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
servant told a committee of AMs that the conduct of Main should | 0:25:30 | 0:25:35 | |
have been considered high risk. Processors in recent years have | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
been fine, but I think we have to go back longer than that to answer | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
questions and to get some answers about our long-term management of | 0:25:42 | 0:25:50 | |
an organisation which, if you look at the history, we should have | 0:25:50 | 0:25:54 | |
raided as -- we should have graded as a high risk organisation. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:58 | |
submitted a list of questions to the Welsh Government. We asked for | 0:25:58 | 0:26:02 | |
a copy of the second review from 2003, which a Government spokesman | 0:26:02 | 0:26:06 | |
told us was in the public domain. We asked whether allegations that | 0:26:06 | 0:26:10 | |
the Welsh Government suspended funding into 1006 after complaints | 0:26:10 | 0:26:15 | |
from a vice chair of AWEMA trustees about procedural Erich -- | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
irregularities were true. And we asked whether the Government had | 0:26:18 | 0:26:25 | |
investigated AWEMA at any other time than in 2002, 2003 and the two | 0:26:25 | 0:26:29 | |
reviews this year. A spokesman refused to answer our questions | 0:26:29 | 0:26:39 | |
0:26:39 | 0:26:48 | ||
One of the other bodies that is supposed to provide oversight of | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
charities is the sector's regulator, the Charity Commission. They told | 0:26:52 | 0:26:56 | |
us they have not decided on a course of action in relation to the | 0:26:56 | 0:27:00 | |
concerns surrounding AWEMA, they will not do so until they meet the | 0:27:00 | 0:27:04 | |
charity, and they have not arranged a date for such a meeting. | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
With me is the leader of the Welsh Conservatives in the Assembly, | 0:27:08 | 0:27:13 | |
Andrew RT Davies. Welcome. What is your view of the way the review is | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
being conducted by the Welsh government? There is a stench about | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
the whole thing. We see the permanent secretary saying they | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
have not been up to their game, have not reviewed the charity for | 0:27:24 | 0:27:27 | |
some time, or been up to the job of supervising the public money that | 0:27:27 | 0:27:32 | |
has gone in there. Ministers have failed. We have a minister and a | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
First Minister who have failed in their job to oversee this charity. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:40 | |
What we want is questions. You had the chair of the organisation in | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
here earlier who identified faults, and she did not act on them. We | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
have made chief-executive identified in a report with gross | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
negligence. We had an employment lawyer saying that in normal | 0:27:51 | 0:27:55 | |
circumstances he would have been suspended. None of the actions that | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
would normally follow have been undertaken. There is a real stench | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
about this and it needs a thorough investigation. I call into question | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
the Welsh Government's ability to be the ultimate arbitrator on this, | 0:28:06 | 0:28:12 | |
given their inaction to date. do you intend to do? My colleague | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
Darren Millar has written to South Wales Police, believing the | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
allegations are serious enough to warrant a police investigation. We | 0:28:20 | 0:28:24 | |
will be asking some searching and serious questions through the | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
Chamber and also via the Public Accounts Committee which undertook | 0:28:27 | 0:28:31 | |
an investigation this week. But above all, this highlights in | 0:28:31 | 0:28:34 | |
action at the highest level of government. This is an organisation | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
that deals with in excess of �8 million of public money. It is not | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
good enough and it builds on a series of failures across Wales | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
with public money that highlights the systemic failure within the | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
Welsh government and at the heart, the ministers must take account and | 0:28:49 | 0:28:54 | |
be responsible. We look forward to a minister appearing on this | 0:28:54 | 0:28:58 |