09/02/2012 Dragon's Eye


09/02/2012

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Gym membership worth more than �2,000. Rugby and cricket tickets

:03:32.:03:38.

worth �800. The Chief Executive's parking fine costing �110. Just

:03:38.:03:41.

some of the things your money was being used for at Awema, a charity

:03:41.:03:46.

which was supposed to promote equality and diversity. This is

:03:46.:03:56.
:03:56.:04:02.

Good evening. Conflicts of interest that included a father voting on

:04:02.:04:08.

his daughter's pay rise from �20,000 in 2008 to �50,000 today.

:04:08.:04:12.

Irregular and infrequent board meetings. A failure to meet

:04:12.:04:14.

statutory deadlines for filing accounts with Companies House and

:04:14.:04:19.

the Charity Commission. These things and more have led to the

:04:19.:04:21.

Welsh Government's report into allegations of financial

:04:21.:04:23.

irregularities at Awema, Wales' leading ethnic minority

:04:23.:04:25.

organisation, to comment that failings in control and governance

:04:25.:04:28.

within Awema permeated the whole of the organisation and suggest that

:04:28.:04:31.

the trustees, including the CEO Naz Malik, had little regard to the

:04:31.:04:41.
:04:41.:04:45.

Tonight, the organisation's Chair Rita Austin said the Awema Board

:04:45.:04:48.

would carry out its responsibility to manage an orderly exit for the

:04:48.:04:58.
:04:58.:05:05.

He is the race relations charity boss who is at the centre of a

:05:05.:05:11.

massive row. This is the third week we have been looking at the

:05:11.:05:18.

situation that has seen All Wales Ethnic Minority Association's

:05:18.:05:24.

funding suspended. There were serious concerns over bullying and

:05:24.:05:31.

financial mismanagement. There were concerns with the financial

:05:31.:05:38.

controls in the charity. I will be passing a copy of the report to the

:05:38.:05:43.

Assembly. Today, we saw the report looking at the financial management

:05:43.:05:48.

of the charity. It said they were unable to concern whether public

:05:48.:05:58.
:05:58.:05:59.

funding that Awema had received was utilised for the purposes it had

:05:59.:06:06.

been provided for. Also, there were serious shortcomings and failings

:06:06.:06:16.
:06:16.:06:17.

in governments and financial management. We do not want to

:06:17.:06:21.

prejudice the work of the Audit Office. They have accepted they

:06:21.:06:24.

will undertake this review and it is important they are left to get

:06:25.:06:33.

on with it. But people want to know if we Art emanating funding and we

:06:33.:06:43.
:06:43.:06:45.

are. Last week, we reported how Awema's lawyers had advised that

:06:45.:06:50.

Naz Malik should be suspended. The chair just gave him a written

:06:50.:06:58.

warning. When I got into the chair, we looked at the solicitor's advice

:06:58.:07:04.

and we did give it consideration. By you dismissed it in the end?

:07:04.:07:08.

don't think it is fair to say we dismissed it. You chose not to

:07:08.:07:14.

follow? I chose not to follow that aspect of it. Over the years and

:07:14.:07:20.

despite complaints and allegations and investigations into Awema and

:07:20.:07:27.

its chief executive Naz Malik, they continued to receive public money,

:07:27.:07:36.

nearly a million pounds. So now, other bodies representing ethnic

:07:36.:07:44.

minorities are asking how Awema have continued to be funded. The

:07:44.:07:47.

South East Wales Racial Equality Council and does not receive money

:07:47.:07:56.

from Awema, but does similar work. I am not sure what Awema has done

:07:56.:08:00.

in my area. I do get a lot of clients coming in to ask for help

:08:00.:08:07.

and support in things which Awema is there to provide and I know I

:08:07.:08:12.

have at times cent people down there. Some of them have come back

:08:12.:08:18.

to me and said, can you provide the support because the support here is

:08:18.:08:28.

what they require. So that is something else that should be

:08:28.:08:32.

looked at. Certainly, some of the work has been duplicated. What

:08:32.:08:40.

could happen next? Well, Wales's for equality councils receive money

:08:41.:08:48.

from Awema. They should now take over the work of Awema. Others say

:08:48.:08:55.

they are worried about the situation at Awema affecting other

:08:55.:09:01.

charities. There is a feeling that, here we go again, and it should not

:09:01.:09:07.

be the case in terms of lumping all black organisations and individuals

:09:07.:09:13.

to get her. Yes, I am generalising, but the nature of it, as I said, is

:09:13.:09:18.

taking this for what it is and it is not about black individuals or

:09:18.:09:24.

black organisations who cannot manage. There are many examples

:09:24.:09:28.

where organisations and individuals are making valuable contributions

:09:28.:09:33.

and that should be recognised. weeks ago when we first approached

:09:33.:09:37.

Naz Malik for an interview, he said it would not be appropriate for him

:09:37.:09:43.

to comment was awash government was still investigating. Well, that

:09:43.:09:47.

report is published today, but Naz Malik has been instructed not to

:09:47.:09:51.

conduct an interview. We tried to catch him on his way to work, but

:09:51.:09:57.

he has not turned up. The serious failings at Awema had been a shock

:09:57.:10:03.

to many, but those who have worked there over the years, it was no

:10:03.:10:13.
:10:13.:10:14.

surprise. What people are concerned with now is what will happen to

:10:14.:10:19.

beat community that Awema was set up to help?

:10:19.:10:23.

Arwyn Jones reporting. As you saw in his report, among the many other

:10:23.:10:25.

inquiries now underway is one looking at the historical funding

:10:25.:10:29.

of Awema by the Welsh Government. It was nine years ago that Dragon's

:10:29.:10:31.

Eye first broke the story of allegations of financial

:10:31.:10:33.

irregularities and bullying at the organisation. After that a review

:10:33.:10:36.

was commissioned by the then Social Justice Minister Edwina Hart. It

:10:36.:10:39.

recommended in 2004 that funding for new projects be stopped until

:10:39.:10:42.

procedures were tightened up. It wasn't. In 2007 the then Chair

:10:42.:10:44.

resigned after writing to the Welsh Government alleging financial

:10:44.:10:47.

malpractice. Kirsty Williams is the leader of the Welsh Liberal

:10:47.:10:55.

Democrats. What is your reaction to today's

:10:55.:11:02.

report? I am shocked by that comment. It is a damning indictment

:11:02.:11:10.

of how taxpayers' money was spent by this organisation. Why did Welsh

:11:10.:11:18.

ministers allow this to continued, despite warnings over the years?

:11:18.:11:24.

That was not the function of this report. It makes clear that Awema

:11:24.:11:30.

is not a Welsh government-sponsored body and it is not within the remit

:11:30.:11:37.

of the report to examine the Welsh government's response. It was not

:11:37.:11:41.

the responsibility of the report to establish that, but it demonstrates

:11:41.:11:48.

that the concerns been raised in 2004 and 2007 when not acted upon

:11:48.:11:53.

by Welsh ministers. Instead, despite warnings not to give the

:11:53.:11:57.

organisation more money, the Welsh government poured money into this

:11:57.:12:00.

organisation without carrying out the appropriate checks that the

:12:00.:12:10.
:12:10.:12:10.

money was being spent wisely. We need answers from ministers. Why

:12:10.:12:14.

did they ignore independent advice and warnings from people who had

:12:14.:12:20.

experience of this organisation? Why were they ignored, why did

:12:20.:12:25.

money go to this organisation from beat Watch government and why did

:12:25.:12:32.

the government not check it was getting good value for money?

:12:32.:12:36.

government did commission the Audit Office to look into the history of

:12:36.:12:40.

the funding of Awema, so it seems they are trying to get to the

:12:40.:12:46.

bottom of it. It is a bit like shutting the stable door before --

:12:46.:12:51.

after the horse has bolted. The government was warned about giving

:12:51.:13:01.
:13:01.:13:06.

money to this organisation. Both in 2004 and 2007. It is a bit rich now

:13:06.:13:13.

for Jane Hutt to be sent at this late stage after a �0.4 million of

:13:13.:13:18.

taxpayers' money has been spent, that they are taking this situation

:13:18.:13:23.

seriously. What do you want to happen now? We need clear answers

:13:23.:13:26.

from the Welsh government. It is clear to me that what they are

:13:26.:13:34.

doing, publishing a report at 4pm on the Thursday, they are not

:13:34.:13:38.

coming forward with the answers that are needed. I want to know

:13:38.:13:42.

what happened in the Welsh Assembly government to ignore warnings over

:13:42.:13:47.

many years about this organisation? Why did they not take it seriously

:13:47.:13:53.

and act sooner and why did they allow this situation to develop? At

:13:53.:13:58.

best it was negligence. At worst it is time to look at the interesting

:13:58.:14:02.

connections between the Welsh Assembly ministers, this

:14:02.:14:06.

organisation and membership of the Labour Party. And where do you

:14:06.:14:11.

stand in terms of your view of what happened and the reasons for it?

:14:11.:14:16.

best, it is negligence on behalf of the Welsh Assembly Government, but

:14:16.:14:20.

now we need some clear answers from the Welsh ministers about why they

:14:20.:14:25.

did not at previously. They cannot continue to hide behind

:14:25.:14:29.

investigations and saying they cannot comment. We need clarity

:14:29.:14:32.

about why the Welsh ministers did not act when they had the

:14:32.:14:37.

opportunity. Where does the responsibility lie in your view?

:14:37.:14:42.

Ultimately, with the Welsh Assembly government. Some of them were at

:14:42.:14:52.
:14:52.:14:53.

the table in 2,000 form and continue to sit around be -- in

:14:53.:15:02.

2004 and continued to sit around the Cabinet table. I welcome the

:15:02.:15:06.

fact the Welsh Audit Office is looking into this matter, but it is

:15:06.:15:10.

not sustainable for ministers to hide behind investigations. We need

:15:10.:15:15.

clarity about why the government did not act to protect Welsh

:15:15.:15:18.

taxpayers' money and the interest of the communities that this

:15:18.:15:22.

charity claimed to be representing. Should there be a debate over this?

:15:22.:15:27.

We absolutely need one and a clear answer from the ministers. It is

:15:27.:15:31.

not good enough to publish this report before an Assembly recess

:15:31.:15:37.

and hope it will go away. It is too serious for that. Thank you.

:15:37.:15:40.

For the third week in a row we asked the Welsh Government to

:15:40.:15:42.

provide a minister to be interviewed on Dragon's Eye about

:15:43.:15:45.

the way they have handled the situation at Awema. They declined,

:15:45.:15:47.

explaining that the Equalities Minister Jane Hutt was providing

:15:48.:15:50.

one single interview for all media outlets. You saw her in Arwyn's

:15:51.:15:53.

report. I'm joined now by two leading

:15:53.:15:55.

members of other organisations working with our diverse

:15:55.:15:57.

communities - David Phillips from South East Wales Racial Equality

:15:57.:15:59.

Council and Michael Flynn from Black Voluntary Sector Network

:15:59.:16:09.
:16:09.:16:12.

Wales. Welcome to the programme. What is your reaction to the report,

:16:13.:16:22.
:16:23.:16:26.

First, we are very relieved that we've had the report published. My

:16:26.:16:32.

initial reaction to the content is quite devastating really for the

:16:32.:16:36.

organisation involved. For us we are just happy that we've come to a

:16:36.:16:38.

resolution, really happy that Jane Hutt made a statement today

:16:38.:16:43.

regarding the funding. We are just hoping that we can move on as soon

:16:43.:16:46.

as possible and engage in real conversation with the Government to

:16:46.:16:51.

help them move on with this. those views that you share, David

:16:51.:16:56.

Phillips? Yes they are. We've been worried about the impact of this

:16:56.:16:59.

ongoing saga for the reputation of the qualities sector in general. It

:16:59.:17:03.

is good to have a resolution. It is not good that they found that there

:17:03.:17:11.

were so many things amiss. In terms of the role of Awema, it was an

:17:11.:17:14.

umbrella organisation that sent funding to organisations around

:17:14.:17:18.

Walesment neither of your oorgss in recent times received money from

:17:18.:17:23.

Awema. But can you give an idea of the projects that are going on up

:17:23.:17:27.

and down Wales that Awema funding may have gone into? Most of the

:17:27.:17:31.

projects would have provided services or training opportunities,

:17:31.:17:35.

the sorts of things that would help people from disadvantaged

:17:35.:17:39.

backgrounds to be able to play on a more level playing field. It could

:17:39.:17:45.

have been supported learning, job skills, it could have been a whole

:17:45.:17:49.

range of things around education, confidence building. Those sorts of

:17:49.:17:53.

things. What sort of things does your organisation do? It is

:17:53.:17:58.

important to differentiate between the Awema situation and this report

:17:58.:18:03.

and the damning content of what it contains. With the realistic and

:18:03.:18:06.

good work carried out by the organisations, the grass roots

:18:06.:18:09.

organisations throughout the country, who are providing great

:18:09.:18:13.

services to vulnerable people throughout the country... Can you

:18:13.:18:18.

give me an idea what sort of services? In terms of the kind of

:18:18.:18:23.

things that your organisation does. For example David has given us an

:18:23.:18:26.

idea. We are called the Black Voluntary Sector Network Wales and

:18:26.:18:30.

we help to support and represent issues for grass roots level to a

:18:30.:18:37.

ministerial level that BME people may face. We help the Welsh

:18:37.:18:41.

Assembly Government develop policies and see how they impact on

:18:41.:18:43.

different communities across qualities throughout the country.

:18:43.:18:47.

We want to make sure that everyone in Wales has a chance to

:18:47.:18:51.

participate in service provision and opportunities available to them.

:18:51.:18:57.

So important work for giving voices to people who sometimes

:18:57.:19:03.

historically haven't had much of a voice, David. How damaging is the

:19:03.:19:06.

controversy over Awema have the allegations been to that work?

:19:06.:19:10.

has been very damaging, but the fact that over the last three weeks

:19:10.:19:17.

we've had the Welsh Government act in reasonably decisively I hope

:19:17.:19:20.

that means we can draw a line under this. And the partners within the

:19:20.:19:24.

European projects will be able to come together and work together to

:19:24.:19:28.

share the load of taking that project forward. And in the future

:19:28.:19:31.

that the Welsh Assembly Government will look to a wider range of

:19:31.:19:36.

partners. I think one of the weaknesses has been that the Welsh

:19:36.:19:40.

Government relied on one organisation as the main conduit

:19:40.:19:46.

into the BME communities. There are a large number of BME community

:19:46.:19:50.

organisations that can play a part in being that conduit, people on

:19:50.:19:53.

the ground with those connections. That's an interesting point. What

:19:53.:19:56.

should happen to the European funding that has been going to

:19:56.:20:00.

organisations? How should that be channelled now It is important that

:20:00.:20:06.

they carry on with that fund sog that the organisations that are --

:20:06.:20:14.

fund sog that the organisations that are involved get the money

:20:14.:20:18.

from Awema. We wouldn't want to go back to Brussels. Wales doesn't get

:20:18.:20:21.

enough European money, in my opinion. I don't think there's a

:20:21.:20:26.

single organisation that could step in and take over or that would want

:20:26.:20:30.

to. Forgive me for interrupting, but Michael, would you share the

:20:30.:20:34.

points perhaps about the structure, that using one organisation to

:20:34.:20:38.

filter money through hasn't been the best way to do things anyway?

:20:38.:20:45.

There are really good organisations large and small within the country.

:20:45.:20:48.

There are regional equality networks, new and up and coming

:20:48.:20:52.

organisations who should be part of that process. I'm grateful to you

:20:52.:20:56.

both for coming on to the programme. Thank you.

:20:56.:20:59.

The three opposition parties in the Assembly are calling on the Welsh

:20:59.:21:02.

Government to publish details of its meetings with lobbyists. The UK

:21:02.:21:04.

Government, which already does this, is now also consulting on whether

:21:04.:21:07.

there should be a legal register of people seeking to influence

:21:07.:21:10.

Ministers. There are calls for that to cover Wales, as concerns

:21:10.:21:12.

increase that Cardiff Bay is already falling behind Westminster

:21:12.:21:22.
:21:22.:21:33.

and Whitehall in openness and In Britain lobbying has been called

:21:33.:21:37.

a �2 billion industry. Its supporters say it is about

:21:37.:21:41.

improving policy and legislation. Its critics have other ideas.

:21:41.:21:45.

Lobbyists are not adding to the knowledge of Parliament. Their role

:21:45.:21:51.

is parasitic. They are living off Parliament. And they are hear to

:21:51.:21:56.

sell their talents and persuasive tal tonight the highest bidder. It

:21:56.:22:01.

is about money. This is Central Lobby, the heart of Parliament.

:22:01.:22:07.

Members of the public can meet their MPs here even without an

:22:07.:22:10.

appointment. There are real concerns about the growing

:22:10.:22:14.

Battalion of professional lobbyists and their impact on the political

:22:14.:22:19.

process. It is the next big scandal waiting to happen. I'm talking

:22:19.:22:22.

about lobbying... These gates may keep the public out of Downing

:22:22.:22:26.

Street, but what about the lobbyists? In December a former

:22:26.:22:30.

Conservative MP was secretly recorded boasting he had access to

:22:30.:22:34.

the very heart of Government. A claim denied by Downing Street.

:22:34.:22:39.

Many lobbyists say the industry has to change. I think the time has

:22:39.:22:45.

come for statutory regulation. We've always voluntarily disclosed

:22:45.:22:50.

our client and been on the voluntary register, but I think

:22:50.:22:55.

public trust is so low in our industry we have to have a

:22:55.:22:58.

statutory register. Many organisations want access to the

:22:58.:23:02.

core doors of power and are willing to pay for it. The consultation

:23:02.:23:05.

will look at how to define a lobbyist and what information

:23:05.:23:08.

should be gathered about them and their clients. There are questions

:23:08.:23:11.

over whether trade unions and charities should be included and

:23:11.:23:15.

whether we should be told how much companies spend on lobbying. The UK

:23:15.:23:20.

Government is also asking whether any new register should cover those

:23:20.:23:25.

lobbying the devolved Governments, including the Assembly. This is not

:23:25.:23:28.

just about Westminster. We need to have a proper debate about how we

:23:28.:23:32.

do this in a way that encourages people to be involved in the

:23:32.:23:36.

democratic process but ensures that it is open and transparent. It is

:23:36.:23:40.

something that could really increase people's trust in

:23:40.:23:43.

Government if we have more transparency and more information

:23:43.:23:49.

about the roles of these kinds of corporate often interests in the

:23:50.:23:53.

process. The Assembly in the Welsh Government currently set their own

:23:53.:23:58.

rules. Many want that to continue but argue Wales needs its own

:23:58.:24:01.

statutory register. We are in this building. Look at the glass. It is

:24:01.:24:06.

supposed to be transparent, but of course it's not. Until you are

:24:06.:24:11.

seeing where the Ministers, who the Ministers are meet manager, what

:24:11.:24:17.

organisations are pressing them, it is not open Government. This week

:24:17.:24:22.

Gareth Huws chaired a debate on the future of the media with visitors

:24:22.:24:27.

to the Senedd. He said when he previously raised the issue he

:24:27.:24:32.

received an anonymous call warning him it was none of his business.

:24:32.:24:35.

don't take these things seriously but there's a serious obvious

:24:35.:24:40.

message there, that these people don't want too see, you know, don't

:24:40.:24:48.

want the floodlights to open up on what they are doing. I think that's

:24:48.:24:51.

worrying. The UK Government publishes a list of all meetings

:24:51.:24:56.

its Ministers have with lobbyists. There is no similar list here. So

:24:56.:24:58.

while we could find out which organisations have met the

:24:58.:25:01.

Secretary of State for Wales we've had to use freedom of information

:25:02.:25:05.

laws to ask the same details about the First Minister of Wales. If you

:25:05.:25:09.

have nothing to hide, let us see what is going on behind the closed

:25:09.:25:13.

doors in the Welsh Government. If you have nothing to hide, you have

:25:13.:25:18.

nothing to fear. So go ahead and publish these mights, show us who

:25:18.:25:23.

you are meeting, let's get this register et up and see leadership

:25:23.:25:28.

on this issue. All three opposition parties now take the same stance.

:25:28.:25:30.

certainly think we should have a register of Lloyds Banking

:25:30.:25:35.

Groupists here in sweels that everything is above board and

:25:35.:25:37.

transparent. I think there's a legitimate reason as to why

:25:37.:25:43.

Government Ministers should record former meetings that they have with

:25:43.:25:48.

Lloyds Banking Groupists. Jonathan Morgan has gone through the so-

:25:48.:25:52.

called revolving door into the world of lobbying. We live in a

:25:52.:25:56.

small country. Wales is Tyney. I think if there were any public

:25:56.:25:59.

affairs officers or companies that were engaged in dodgy dealings,

:25:59.:26:06.

they would be found out pretty quickly. I think we've got a good

:26:06.:26:12.

self-regulating system in Cardiff. Since last year the Assembly can

:26:12.:26:16.

pass laws under health and education. With more powers will

:26:16.:26:22.

come more lobbyists. Any suggestion that the UK is leave Wales behind

:26:22.:26:24.

will concern many political observers.

:26:24.:26:26.

A Welsh Government spokesperson said: "Welsh Ministers are subject

:26:26.:26:29.

to the Ministerial Code - the principles of which are virtually

:26:29.:26:32.

identical to the Code which applies to UK Ministers. We would therefore

:26:32.:26:34.

carefully consider any new or revised guidelines produced by the

:26:34.:26:37.

UK Government in relation to lobbying, if we felt there was

:26:37.:26:43.

merit in applying it, or a version of it, here in Wales."

:26:43.:26:47.

I'm joined now by Nick Ramsay, chair of the Conservative group in

:26:47.:26:53.

the Assembly, and Dewi Knight from Public Affairs Cymru. Welcome to

:26:53.:26:57.

the programme. Dewi Knight, let's talk about what lobbying is first

:26:57.:27:03.

of all. You can give me an example of how it works. As a lobbyist what

:27:03.:27:10.

do you do? Lobbying or public affairs activities are integ troop

:27:10.:27:19.

the democratic space -- integral to the democratic space in Wales. We

:27:19.:27:26.

work with Assembly Ministers to provide better laws for Wales.

:27:26.:27:30.

you say better law, is it about representing the interests of a

:27:30.:27:33.

specific group, whether it is a charity or a private company? Are

:27:33.:27:37.

you trying to influence the Government to act in the way that

:27:37.:27:45.

they want? Well, as anyone would do. I work for a university that is

:27:45.:27:48.

interested in widening access today cation. We are trying to make that

:27:48.:27:57.

better for the country as a whole, so we have better access to

:27:57.:28:01.

education. I think it goes back to transparency. We've looked at the

:28:01.:28:04.

way the UK coalition Government is going, so that when the public have

:28:04.:28:08.

elected their politicians and those politicians have gone into

:28:08.:28:11.

government they can see how they are representing the views that

:28:11.:28:16.

they are. I don't see why we shouldn't go down that line in

:28:16.:28:21.

Wales. It is supposed to be a transparent decky, what have the

:28:21.:28:25.

Government got to hide. Dewi Knight, would you object to such a

:28:25.:28:29.

register? No, I want. The UK Government says it is going to

:28:29.:28:33.

consult with the devolved administrations and legislatures.

:28:33.:28:38.

I'm not aware there's been discussions with the Assembly

:28:38.:28:47.

commission or Government. We'll be keen to see perhaps the Wales-based

:28:47.:28:51.

register, we could take the lead. understand you have concerns about

:28:51.:28:55.

the approach that's being taken at a London level in terms of the

:28:55.:29:00.

distinguishing between commercial interests and charity interests?

:29:00.:29:04.

Public Affairs Cymru we don't make a distinction, whether they are

:29:04.:29:10.

charities, or commercial public affairs firms. In Wales we think

:29:10.:29:14.

everyone who is a lobbyist, whether a charity or commercial firm,

:29:14.:29:18.

should be expected to adhere to the same sort of conduct, so that AMs

:29:18.:29:22.

like Nick or Ministers are aware of how public affairs professionals

:29:22.:29:25.

should conduct themselves. That sounds fair enough, Nick Ramsay.

:29:25.:29:30.

Why isn't the Government in London doing this in a broader way? To be

:29:31.:29:37.

fair to Dewi and Public Affairs Cymru they are an excellent example

:29:37.:29:43.

of how public affairs can work. I hope this doesn't sound too

:29:43.:29:49.

negative to our lobbyists. Many of us as Assembly Members have a lot

:29:49.:29:53.

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