23/02/2012 Dragon's Eye

in the Senedd. Opposition parties keep up the pressure on the Welsh

Government over AWEMA. And do Tory AMs have confidence in their

Good evening. First of all, I am going to talk to

our political editor about the leadership question. We are going

to be hearing from the three candidates next week. Give us a

taster of what you might expect to hear. The differences have become

clear. The party is thinking, good, this is a proper choice. On 16th

March and, whoever wins, their other two will be happy to serve

under them. The debate has been around the economy, jobs, job

creation, but also tied in to that his constitutional change, its

relevance, what is real independence, what does it all

mean? I think they feel they have set out their stall in hustings,

but we haven't been there of course, that is only for party members.

independence question is interesting, not just because of

what is going on in Scotland at the moment. Yes, one candidate is

saying that the other two have just got it completely wrong. He says

this is about not missing an opportunity if things start to move

in Scotland. The other two have a clear message around independence

and they want to make it clear that they are relating it to everyday

life. It is the two women who are eyeing each other. Those two camps

looking at each other. The one from the Leanne Wood camps saying that

not much could change the things have to change. Somebody else

saying that if Leanne Wood makes it, it looks very tasty but where is

the beef? That she would be exposed as a leader. Still some tasty

rhetoric around this. In terms of the contest itself, the nature of

the voting process does mean that surprises can happen along the way.

Is it possible to say he is in front? So prices can happen in this

and that is why nobody is bidding go ahead on the block. I think that

Leanne Wood camp are looking less happy than they were a few weeks

ago. The Elin Jones camp are looking more relaxed and optimistic.

I still say that if you go to hustings in a posh hotel in Cardiff,

as it did this week, Thomas looks flippant, not really trying. The

bulk of the membership is in the west and north-west. In the north-

east, that is where he has spent some time. You mark my words are

many people are members there and are likely to vote, he said. I

don't think it is possible to be clear about who will win this, but

the second preference will be key. When that is key, he can go

anywhere. We did start off with four candidates and Simon Thomas

dropped out and endorsed Elin Jones. How much significance to that have?

Her team think that is a good move. Her campaign seemed to get more

impetus behind it after that. On the other hand it is easy to point

the finger and say to AMs to get their. It had its dangers.

Generally I think they fill the tactic has paid off. It is a cliche

to say that a leadership contest is about people discussing the soul of

a party and what they wanted to go and philosophical things like that.

In the case of Plaid Cymru it is true with bells on. We just had a

report about may be why they didn't do so well in the last Assembly

elections and suggestions about changing the structure of the party.

What is the philosophical context of all this for them? I think some

people thought there would be more differences and three candidates

would come out with more planned changes that they felt needed to be

made now to how the party should be run and how they connect with the

grass root members. He doesn't feel as if they have gone so far from

The Script. Leanne Wood on paper and, if you look at your economic

plans, those feel more different. The concern of those who will not

go for her is that it sounds fine in to you delve deeper and then

they would be exposed. I think all in all Plaid Cymru feel they have

gone for it just about enough but as the party centrally they would

not want them to go any harder after it. Perhaps they haven't

hustings when we have not been able to look in. I think the hustings

were we have been allowed to film have probably been very different

in moods than the ones were we have not with more heckling and

disagreements. In terms of the timetable for all of this, it is

starting to draw to a close. It is, as a sort of hope! The hustings are

over so they have had their stay -- have their say. Ballot papers have

gone out today and they have made day -- until midday on 15th March.

Questions persist about why ministers fail to act on warnings

about AWEMA and financial impropriety. The chief executive

and finance director have both been sacked. An inquiry has been set up

to look at the trustees to have a responsibility to look at how the

money is being sent. The chair of the public accounts committee has

received other allegations -- allegations on how money is being

spent another charity organisations. Good morning. And it is a very good

morning in Wales. We have all seen it a thousand times before, but one

of the reasons it was meant to be such a good morning for Wales was

that's the assembly would usher in a new year in was political life,

not just assembly members that a civil society, the charities who

are not quite government but not quite citizens. One of the things

that the AWEMA scandal has-1 up as to what extent has that been

happening. There is still a lot of anger and some surprise of war went

on at the All Wales Ethnic Minority Association. We know there are

investigations by the Charity Commission, the Audit Office and

perhaps at some point even the police, but my fingers are being

pointed elsewhere as to why the chief-executive of AWEMA was not

rained in much sooner after several government inquiries. And Tuesday

the leader of the opposition bit his views abundantly clear. For him,

this was little short of cronyism. There is a real perception that if

you want to have a Public appointments in Wales you need to

carry and Labour Party cards. If you look at l e h b appointments

recently Maria battle was appointed as chair, former Labour candidate.

Win Griffiths, and others. All Labour members. Can you assure the

chamber and the people of Wales that to get a senior public

appointment in Wales you do not need to have a Labour Party

membership card? He is unaware of the Nolan principle and the fact

that many appointments are made openly, unlike the 1990s when

Tories to could not get elected ended up in quangos. It is to avoid

such accusations that there are now call sport could be an

unprecedented transparency from our top civil society bosses making

them tell us which party they support. We need to realise about

the civil society is that it is delivering a lot of services that

people who work in its our political activists themselves so

there needs to be greater transparency about the relationship

between the third sector hands the Welsh government. I'm advocating a

list whereby those senior officials or directors of any civil society

organisations that are receiving money directly from the government,

that their political affiliation is made known. For these societies it

can be a tricky thing because they want to be close to government, but

they need to be independent, sometimes even critical and they

can be a difficult balance. Wales what we have seen is that the

weaknesses of civil society have created a greater sense of

dependence on the Government. It has had to select the organisations

that it funds. It is score funded some organisations, etc. There has

been a tendency organisations to be less willing to criticise

government would be a bit more careful about how they engage or

what they say about the government. Devolution brought new

opportunities. There is AWEMA's chief executive cheering on the

right of the screen. If there was a systematic weaknesses in the way in

which the government in Wales actually distributes money, public

money, to various organisations in Wales, but you have learnt those

lessons and that you have implemented measures to ensure that

those weaknesses have been addressed. At would be grateful if

the minister can confirm that the Welsh government will continue to

engage with the sector to ensure that their voices heard and not

marginalised because of the manifest Government's feelings of

one particular body. When allegations were received about

irregularities at AWEMA, the Welsh government reacted quickly to the

allegations made and a halt was placed on funding the next day. The

big lottery froze its funding. There have been no answers.

Ministers have passed over their responsibilities. Where is the

accountability, transparency and the new year of Welsh democracy,

where has it disappeared to? the question to be answered is was

AWEMA a one off? The answer, possibly not. As a result of the

media attention that the situation at AWEMA has had, I have had

letters from people connected with other organisations raising

concerns about the way in which funds have been managed and the

failure to monitor by the Welsh government and other charities and

organisations. Wills deserves a voice, says the slogan back in 1997,

but the accusation now is that too many people stayed too quiet for

too long about AWEMA. Two instrumental characters in the

assembly, Ron Davies and Rhodri Morgan might now be questioned by

the Audit Office during their inquiries about the relationship

between the government and the charity. It all seems a long way

from the optimism of the new year end was politics. -- New Era. We

did ask to speak to the Equalities Minister, Jane Hutt, but we were

told it wouldn't be appropriate for her to comment while the Wales

Audit Office inquiry is in progress. With me now are Eluned Parrott of

the Liberal Democrats and Labour's Vaughan Gething. Mr Gething didn't

want to take part in a discussion, so Eluned Parrott first.

Do you think that the AWEMA episode doors open wider questions about

the strength of civil society and governments in Wales? Possibly.

Before we look at that, we need to make it clear that the third sector

in Wales perform a very valuable role. Their morale at the moment is

at rock bottom because of this fiasco at AWEMA. I think we need to

be slow to judge in this instance. We need to see if there are any

sub-standard allegations before we assume that the whole barrel has

been tainted by one bad apple. you support the committee looking

into that to save their its substance? I think it would be

Let's talk about the political reaction. Are we on the road of

getting answers about the ways successive governments have dealt

with it? I only wish we were. Four weeks after you first requested the

Government to come and talk to you, here we are again. The minister

responsible is not standing up to public scrutiny. She said it would

not be appropriate because there is a Wales Audit Office investigation.

There is an existing investigation which has been concluded and a

report we could scrutinise the minister on, but she refuses to

answer questions on that. We do not want questions answered which would

prejudice a criminal investigation, or impact on the charity

commission's investigation. It is not the internal workings of AWEMA

that we are concerned with. It is about the Welsh government's

response to the reports in 2004 and in 2012 which demonstrated there

were problems. We want to know why the Welsh government did not act

and why the Welsh government will not stand in front of our assembly

and tell us what went on. It isn't that precisely what the Welsh Audit

Office is looking at? If Jane Hutt had anything to hide, she would not

have asked the Wales' office to look into it. On the contrary. You

might say, if you were cynically minded, that starting another

investigation after first investigation looking at this

particular issue, is another tactic to delay and delay. We have heard,

cannot comment because the original investigation is ongoing, cannot,

because another investigation has been set up. And when are the Welsh

government going to respect the National Assembly for Wales, the

people's representatives in Wales, and stand up and be scrutinised on

this very serious issue? Thank you for talking to last. Vaughan

Gething, if I can turn to you, our ministers hiding behind successive

reviews to avoid answering awkward questions? The point about the

Wales Audit Office investigation, which I welcome, and the charity

commission's investigation, is that they will be a complete picture to

be scrutinised on. I look forward to having those reports presented

and published some ministers can answer questions. The public park -

- the Public Accounts Committee will certainly not spare time or

energy going through those reports and dealing with questions raised.

If there are questions for government, they will be held

accountable at that time in an informed and a mature way. Some of

the comments are going over the top, making suggestions where there is

no evidence to back them up. February 9th, when the Welsh

government review was published, that was the perfect window for

Jane Hutt to submit herself to some scrutiny, either on this programme

or another programme, because the Welsh government's review had been

concluded and the Wales Audit Office's review had not started.

And yet she turns down our request for an interview and simply gave a

statement to media outlets. That is not the action, surely, of a

minister who is unwillingly embracing transparency over this.

Except, of course, that once you have the Wales audit investigation

and it is published, that is the most transparent way. The

government cannot control have that investigation is done. It cannot

control the conclusions or the release of information. It is a

wholly independent process and I think that is the right thing to do.

Any minister involved, the whole relationship with AWEMA, can be

properly held to account and scrutinised. Many of the questions

have not just spoken about recent events but have spoken about the

history. Looking at the history in one independent, authoritative

investigation, I think is the right thing to do. The permanent

secretary has acknowledged mistakes were made, saying the organisation

should have been regarded as high risk. Have those comments prejudice

the inquiry? No. That is the permanent secretaries beating, a

civil servant. I think it is important they have all of the

comments made, taken account, looking at the documents, how AWEMA

changed, how the government changed in its reaction, and then to ensure

that ministers at the end have a full set of what has taken place

and are held to account on that basis. I think that is a

transparent way of going about it. There have been allegations of

cronyism as a potential explanation for why there were apparent

failings to pick up on warnings. Was it Labour looking after its

own? No, this is one of those allegations which really is about

fairly shabby point scoring on a partisan basis and not really about

getting to the heart of the matter. There is no evidence that this was

Labour looking after its own. In fact, if you consider the report

that bust the dam on these matters, the Paul Dunn report, was actually

written by somebody who is a long- standing member of the Labour Party

and was a former UNISON regional secretary in the south-west. If

this is about cronyism, that report would not have reached a conclusion

as it did in the way that it did. It was very clear and up front.

me challenge you on your point scoring statement. We have

repeatedly asked for representatives of the Labour Party

to come on and it grip -- address allegations of cronyism. Four weeks

later, you're the first person to take us up on that. Can you blame

the opposition parties for casting around looking for explanations for

what happened when Labour representatives will not come on to

the media and actually discuss this? The point is, casting around

for explanations. Should you reach for an explanation with no evidence

and no basis to support it? We know there have been catastrophic

failures of government. Are you referring to AWEMA? Yes.

Catastrophic failures of governments. Up but have they not

been failures by the Welsh government. Is that not the point

of the report? It is to Isaac -- to identify if they happened and where

they have happened. You have to have a robust, independent process

that lays matters there and is not controlled by the government. That

is the right thing to do. It enhances the scrutiny available. At

the start of this piece we were talking about the impact this has

had. I am concerned about the way this is being opened into wider

attack on the sector. Surely the chairman of the Public Accounts

Committee should investigate if people come to him with concerns.

legitimate concerns should be investigated, but the comments that

the Welsh Tory leader has made it about �8 million of money being

wasted, that is not true and that language does damage that is wholly

unwarranted. He is not on the programme, although we did ask for

him as well as Jane Hutt. Thank you for coming on to talk to us.

Speaking of Andrew RT Davies, cancelled party conference,

negative briefings, rumours of serious splits in the assembly team.

Not exactly fertile ground for the bows Conservatives to run a council

election campaign and it has left some to question whether the

Conservatives are heading in the right direction under Mr Davies,

who has been in the job for less than a year. In a moment I will be

talking to Suzy Davies, but first, The Welsh Conservatives are now the

second biggest party in the Senate and they have eight MPs, quite an

achievement for a party white of the political map of Wales years

ago. The leader of the Conservative Assembly group is facing his first

Test in the role he took over in July, when voters go to the polls

in council elections. We made notable gains last time round in

2008. But I imagine the Tories will be on the defensive this time round,

relieved if they can hold on to flagship local authorities of

Monmouthshire and the Vale of Glamorgan and consolidate those

pockets of support in Mid and West Wales in particular. In 2008, Aled

Davies was one of nine Tory councillors elected in Powys. He is

now leading the efforts in the area to win more seats this time. It has

been a few good years in Montgomeryshire. Through the

general election, assembly elections and the council. The

council elections was the start, really. He says they are fully

behind the Assembly leader. He has been doing a wonderful job. He

leads from the front, says it how it is, and he will lead the troops

into battle. He is doing a fantastic job. But a former Tory

Cabinet Assembly member has resigned from the party, saying

there needs to be better communication between leaders and

members. Publicly, Welsh Conservatives say they are united

and moving forward towards the council elections in May. But

privately, the mood appears to be altogether different here in

Cardiff Bay, with some extremely critical of Andrew RT Davies. Both

in terms of the style and the substance of his leadership. There

is a lot of frustration coming to the fore at Andrew RT Davies'

leadership. They fall into two camps. There are people who simply

do not think he is up to the job and worry about his strategy. They

do not think he has won. And they think he has made mistakes in his

dealings with the party. supporters say there are no

divisions inside the Assembly group, but there are those Tories who say

the fact that the Welsh Conservatives had to cancel their

annual conference this month shows a party that is drifting and

without direction. It is a PR disaster for any party not to

organise a national conference. And the aay ems macro in particular

felt bad about that, thought it was handled badly. They thought the

relationship between the voluntary board in the party and the

leadership had broken down somewhere along the line. It has

been key to a lot of the frustrations we are hearing.

cancellation of the Welsh party gathering at such short notice was

a huge embarrassment for the Conservative Party and a huge

disappointment to the rank and file as it approached these vitally

important local elections. Despite the adverse press, Andrew RT Davies

will be anxious to reassert his leadership and authority over the

party. Andrew Davies publicly floated the idea of the Welsh

Conservatives having a leader for the whole party rather than just

the Assembly group. The Welsh Secretary, Cheryl Gillan, dismissed

the suggestion as a distraction. get this every week, we hear about

Disconnect with members in the group, a disconnect with London,

very publicly seen through the spat with Cheryl Gillan. Clearly, there

is a disconnect with the party, which ended with the situation of

the conference being cancelled. contacted a number of Conservative

organisations to speak to party members about leadership and the

local elections, but many never got back to last. Some agreed to

interviews before pulling out. Opponents see the current situation

as a gift. We are seeing the Conservatives in all manner of

trouble. They have a position where they could not generate enough

support among themselves to hold a conference. That, on the back of

Labour's most successful conference in history here in Wales. They are

also in a position where they have let down some of their traditional

supporters with that, where they cannot communicate with themselves

and are struggling to communicate with the wider Welsh public. They

are in disarray. After almost a decade of building on successes in

the Assembly, Westminster and European local elections, the

council ballot will be the first real challenge to Andrew RT Davies'

leadership. A bad result in a difficult battle could give critics

more ammunition against him. We did ask to speak to Andrew

Davies on the programme tonight. He was not available but we are joined

by Suzy Davies. Well, and congratulations on your appointment.

Is the party united behind Andrew RT Davies? Of course. In the

package before this interview you were not able to speak to a single

individual member of the was Conservatives prepared to say

anything to the contrary, relying on journalists. That was not

exactly making the point. They were not queuing up to, the programme to

defend him. But they were not coming on to save in bad either.

One of the things that I noticed is that we have not had a single

instance in any group meetings, or in any situation where we meet

together where any of the things you have talked about in the

package has come up. There have been a series of embarrassments

recently. You had a former Assembly member resigning on the basis that

the party is not treating grassroots members the way that she

thinks it should. The spring conference was cancelled at a

fortnight's notice, what would have been his first was conference as

leader. Cheryl current -- Cheryl Gillan has let it be known that she

was irritated by his call for a Conservative leader in Wales. They

are not the signs of a happy ship, surely. I think that is a

misinterpretation of where we are. We were very sad to lose Lisa. She

did not resign, she simply did not resume -- renew her membership. She

has made her position clear and I hope we see her comeback at some

point. Naturally, we are very upset about the conference situation. I

think that has been aired publicly more than once. And when it comes

to the situation with our relationship with Westminster, our

relationship is far stronger, for example, then we have seen with the

Labour Party and their party. have just seen a love-in with Ed

Miliband at the recent Labour was conference. They are having fun on

the back of the failure of us to have a conference. We have seen

Carwyn Jones assuming the role of Ed Miliband and trying to hole the

Westminster Community accountable, rather than concentrating on his

job. You are on television defending Your leader and it is the

run-up to local elections. Not the best preparation for those. I do

not feel I am defending him. As you mention, I am new in position as

policy director, and that means we have a coherent team under way

forward that will help us to -- that will help us greatly with the