01/03/2012 Dragon's Eye

Tonight a live debate between the Plaid Cymru leadership candidates.

Good evening. Happy St David's Day. The ballot papers have been sent to

party members, the result will be tphoubsed -- announced in two weeks.

Tonight the three remaining candidates in the leadership

election tphr the Studio to explain why they want the job. Before we

get into detailed discussion of their policies, let's hear a little

about and and from each of them. The order was decided in random, we

pulled their names out of a hessian weave bag for life. I am not sure

whether it was organic. Welcome all of you and thank you very much for

taking part in the programme this evening. We are going to watch a

short film about each of you, after which you will each get 30 seconds

to explain why you want the job and Dafydd Elis-Thomas, your name was

out first. A former presiding officer of the

Assembly, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas has a unique claim to fame, he is

the only person to have been an MP, a Lord and AM. He is also a leader

of the party previously. Now with a reputation as a sartorial country

gent he has also been voted the best-dressed politician in Wales.

Of the three candidates Lord Elis- Thomas has the fewest big name

supporters, without a single AM or MP endorsing his can tkasy, his

hope is that grass roots members like the cut of his jib, as well as

his suits. In 30 seconds then, explain why you think you should be

Plaid Cymru leader? Because I am supported by most of the leaders in

Welsh local Government, because they see that the next main test

for the party is that local Government election. Leadership is

about communication and it's about meeting up challenges and we are in

the most challenging time that Wales has ever been in, in economic

terms, environmental terms and in terms of the constitution, the C-

word which I enjoy using. Leanne Wood, your name was out of the bag

second. Growing up in the valleys she was a relative unknown outside

of Plaid circles, best known perhaps for being expelled from the

Assembly's chamber in 2004 when she called the Queen Mrs Windsor, and

refused to withdraw the remark. Elected to the Assembly for South

Wales central in 2003 she was previously a probation officer and

a councillor. Her campaign has the support of one of the party's most

prominent figures, the former MP Adam Price, who says she speaks

with a voice that reasonates across Wales. She will be hoping, first of

all to reasonate with her party's members.

So, Leanne Wood, in 30 seconds why you should be leader? I have said

Plaid Cymru should prioritise a plan to turn around our

disadvantaged economy, there should be a plan to build a social and

sustainable economy which ensures that everybody who can work is able

to work in a job. There are more detailed proposals found on the

website, Leanne Wood 2012.Com. Finally, Elin Jones. She was the

Rural Affairs Minister in the previous Labour Plaid Cymru

coalition Government. Raised on a farm and with a Masters degree in

rural economics she seemed well suited for the job. She's been the

AM for Ceredigion since 1999 and before that was a councillor in

Aberystwyth, welcoming -- becoming the town's youngest mayor. She

sings in the town choir and was a member of a folk group. It was

music to her ears when Simon Thomas decided to stand down and support

her. But does she strike a chord with the members? Well, Elin Jones,

finally, but last but not least we should say, in 30 seconds why

should you be leader? I want to see Plaid Cymru as a modern 21st

century political party that speaks to everybody in Wales, stands in

elections in order to form a Government, and has an ambition to

see Wales as a successful independent country. Our ambition

for Wales is radical but our politics has to be relevant to

everybody's everyday lives. I want to see Plaid Cymru put at the heart

of our work transforming the Welsh economy, that's why I have a vision

for our second industrial revolution in Wales that benefits

the people of Wales this time. will leave it there, thank you very

much. Let's talk in more detail about some of the issues that have

emerged during the campaign. We will begin with an issue that's

been hotly debated within this contest, independence. Today, an

opinion poll commissioned by BBC Wales suggests that only 7% of the

electorate supports full independence for Wales, although

that figure rises to 12% if Scotland votes in favour in its

forthcoming referendum. Well, Elin Jones, you have been insistent

during the the campaign that the independence issue should be one of

the issues right at the centre of the Plaid platform under your

leadership. Is that what you regard as the party's unique selling point,

as it were? Plaid Cymru's unique selling point is that it is

uniquely a Welsh party with an ambition to see Wales become a

successful independent country. The poll today was no great surprise to

me, what was hugely encouraging about the poll was that we saw that

people in Wales still want to see greater powers for the Assembly and

especially two thirds of the people of Wales now want to see the

Assembly have fiscal powers for the first time. I think ensuring that

we have in Wales an Assembly, and a Government that has a fiscal powers

as well as legislative pow certificates part of the building

of our nation that I want to see happen day after day. Along the

route ultimately to independence, a stepping stone f you like? Yes, of

course. A clear ambition is to see Wales become a successful

independent country. That's an ambition that you share, is that

the key USP for Plaid for you? I think it is time that Plaid Cymru

now puts independence at the forefront of our agenda. We have

met a number of our short-term objectives. We have got legislation

to protect the Welsh language. We passed a referendum this time last

year for full law-making powers in the Assembly and all parties are

united on the need for reforming the way that the Assembly is funded.

So, it is time now for us to put our long-term constitutional goal

right at the heart of what we do. I think we have got to build the

economic case, this is the thing that people are most most concerned

about, is how Wales it going to fare economically in the long-term,

what's happened with the economic crisis since 2008 has changed

politics and the way that we have to operate our politics and I think

that focusing on the economy to build a case for independence is

what Plaid Cymru needs to do next. You have been more sceptical of the

cause for independence, explain your position? The people of Wales

have, in my view, a right to self- determination, the idea belongs

with Dr Richard Price to begin with. The people of Wales are exercising

that right in every opinion poll and every election. I was delighted

with this opinion poll because here we are now, as has been said, with

people of Wales embracing what seems to be the logical conclusion

of what we have been doing over the last 12 years, building up a

National Assembly, ensuring that it had law-making powers, getting out

of the mess Ron Davies created for us originally and now we are able

to have proper legislative body, but also a body which potentially

can have fiscal powers. One thing is very important to me, that

decision will be taken in Wales t won't be taken by a silk commission

in Westminster. Elin Jones, does the opinion poll worry you at all?

7% in favour of full independence t suggests. If you are going to make

independence a big issue, a central issue for Plaid, under your

leadership, aren't you going to be banging a drum that very, very few

of the electorate are interested in hearing? Well, the opinion poll

didn't shock me in any way, there is a big challenge, a big piece of

work for Plaid Cymru and others to do to make the case that Wales can

become a successful independent country. Plaid Cymru hasn't been

making that case really for the past few years. You are confident

you can bring people along, that in time you can convince people of the

argument and get the support? course we are. Because we have seen

the support for greater powers for the Assembly, fiscal powers for the

Assembly for the first time. We have seen that support growing over

the past few years and today in this most recent poll two thirds of

people supporting a form of fiscal powers for the National Assembly,

that's a big change in Welsh opinion polling for the past - over

the past ten years. That wouldn't have happened if Plaid Cymru hadn't

been advocating greater fiscal powers or fiscal powers even for

the National Assembly. Plaid Cymru not alone in that, though, Leanne

Wood, and in the independence case the party very much alone in terms

of the political landscape of Wales. How confident are you that you

could raise interest in the independence issue above what is a

low figure at the moment and how do you intend to do it, if you win?

Well, Elin is right, we haven't put the case for an independent Wales

yet. That case is yet to be put. But there's no reason why Wales

couldn't be an independent nation. There's nothing inherently

different about people in Wales that couldn't make a success. Every

country in the world makes a success or otherwise of their

economy by raising taxes and then spending in public expenditure. Our

economy is weak. We need to make sure that we put more into the tax

pot and we need to have proposals and plans to do that and once our

books are nearer to balancing, we will be in a position to be able to

independent. There is no reason why we can't be. Is there a danger in

soft peddling on independence that you remove from Plaid Cymru the one

thing that makes it unique in Welsh politics, and that is that it is

the party of independence? If you think that's what Plaid is about

then you are talking to the wrong person. What else is it about?

all Welsh poll eubgs is about. -- politics is all about. We represent

everything that's positive in terms of Wales. I have been a committed

environmentalist, I have been particularly advocating throughout

the years that the United Kingdom withdraws itself from all those

international things that have created such disasters and lots of

all those issues. If that's the case why has the party failed to

achieve electoral success over the years? 2010 elections were very

disappointing. The party has achieved huge success. We have

helped create, not alone, but with our colleagues and other parties,

we have created Welsh devolution and I am proud of it and proud of

all the stuff that I did for that 12 years, determined that we should

have a proper system in Wales. Plaid itself equally to post-

devolution? This is the time when Plaid speaks from that platform and

moves on in the context of what is happening to the United Kingdom and

that's the bit that excites me. The United Kingdom is finished, the

United Kingdom has no future. The old imperial states of Europe have

had their day and it's about time they were put out to grass. But out

of that has to come devolution for England, and it's up to the

Scottish people what form they want. If Scotland decides to be an

independent country, they may not be able to play rugby, but they

might make a successful country, good luck to them. Elin Jones,

surely what people are interested in at the moment is the economy.

Independence is a side show. What people want to hear from the new

leader, whoever that may be, is how you are going to create jobs, isn't

it? I am interested in the economy. Wye say it's my top priority and it

should be everybody's top priority, including the First Minister in

Wales. Tell me what your plan is. Well, I want to see as

fundamentally reform the Welsh economy, build it around our

natural resources. We need to get the powers, the legislative powers,

planning powers to do that in terms of our natural resources and also

the fiscal powers to enable to us build our business sectors around

our natural resources for the next 50 years. We have an abundance

supply of renewable energy, of water in Wales, the key resources

for any economy for the next 50 years. We need to be able to plan

for our business and economic growth around those natural

resources. But we have to have a Government with a political will to

want to do that and that's what I would want Plaid Cymru to be.

you have given me there is a wish list for further devolution. Are

you saying to me that you cannot do anything to improve job prospects

for Welsh voters unless you get further devolution? No, what I said

there... What can you do here and now? What I said there, there are

two fundamental issues. One is the weakness of the Welsh economy and

how we plan for that over the next 20-30 years. We have seen UK

macroeconomic planning plan for the city of London over the last 30

years, that doesn't suit Wales and shouldn't be allowed to to continue.

That's why I make the point about powers for planning the economy T

needs to be Welsh-based economic planning. That makes a difference N

terms of the recession now, it is absolutely the imperative for both

Westminster governments and Labour Welsh Government to work together

to ensure that our young people are not facing a lifetime of

unemployment. We have 25% of our young people in unemployment. The

Tory-Lib Dem and Labour governments in power now need to do something

about that. You told me what what everyone else should do and what

you would do if you got further powers. I am still waiting for your

plan for the here and now. People want an opposition party that's

some suggestions for current problems. Fine, I will take up more

of your time and I plan for the here and now, for young people in

particular is that there needs to be a guarantee of a job or training

or education for everybody between 16 and 21. That can only happen if

both Westminster and Welsh governments work together on

putting together that guarantee for young people. They can't be allowed

to continue to bicker whilst young Leanne Wood, what is your plan?

need a new deal, like the New Deal in the United States in the

Depression of the 1930s, where people are employed to undertake

work that needs doing. There is plenty we could do to build

resilience to the problems that we have got in the future. Climate

change, peak oil. We could employ people in programmes retro fitting

homes, for example, to maximise home energy efficiency. If we

introduce measures to encourage people to come together and set up

co-operatives to do that work, you could encourage, through local

stimulation, job-creation at a very local level. That requires much

more public spending at a time when money is tight. It would require

investment, not necessarily public spending. Plaid Cymru put forward

plans in the last election to pull together different aspects of

finance, and it could be done through a series of loans, as

opposed to grants, necessarily. But what is important is that there is

a plan, some thought to planning over the very long term, not just

in election cycles of four years. We need a 20 year plan to turn

around the Welsh economy. And we have to recognise that we will only

do it ourselves. Nobody from outside is going to come and put a

factory in the middle of places where we need jobs. If we will only

turn around the Welsh economy if we are determined to do it ourselves.

Dafydd Elis-Thomas? I am totally committed to future investment in

the energy industry in Wales, all kinds of energy mix. We must move

to remove carbon from the grid, build up renewables, but we must

also have a nuclear. I am told by Kevin McCulloch of Horizon, that

there is �50 billion of potential investment in energy in Wales over

the next half-century, and he is the person that gives the advice to

the present business minister in the world government. York advocacy

of nuclear power contravenes the policy of your party. No, it does

not. When this was discussed in Plaid group and also in conference,

there was an understanding that those areas of Wales, like the one

I represent, a former nuclear decommissioning site, now an

enterprise zone, thanks to the minister, we are awaiting the

decision on the tender for the reactor. This is an opportunity to

transform. And it has been agreed historically in the party,

especially for those of us who represent the workforce, the energy

work force of Wales - and it is not just miners who beat -- who should

be supported by Plaid, as we have done historically. The energy

workers of the nuclear industry also deserve our support. Leanne

Wood, do you support it? Plaid Cymru has said we do not favour a

new nuclear power station in Wales. I have produced a plan for creating

jobs in the renewable energy sector to replace the jobs that would be

created by a new nuclear power station. Realistically, do you

think such a plan could create the kind of jobs that the construction

and operation of the nuclear plant could? Yes. And more. There is the

perfect place particularly for utilising the water around

hydropower and marine power. They will not be operational in five

years, maybe more. How long would it take to build a nuclear power

station? There are potential jobs, if we put serious effort into

creating them, in the renewable energy sector. There is no doubt

that the north-west of his country has serious unemployment problems.

-- of this country. There is a situation that needs addressing, no

doubt about it. But I would say there are too many dangers with

nuclear, too many unknowns. We do not know what to do with the waste.

I think we should not leave that for future generations. Elin Jones?

I do not support nuclear power because of the unsolved issues

around nuclear waste. There is clearly a difference of opinion in

Plaid Cymru. The difference of opinion on nuclear power also

exists in the Lib Dem party and the Labour Party in Wales, so it is not

unique to Plaid Cymru. I am a pragmatic politician. If the UK

Government and others decide that the plant is to be built, I want to

see agencies working in that area to ensure that the economic boost

from that development works for the people in that area, and that they

are able to access the employment opportunities from that. Because

Plaid Cymru would want to see that, naturally. Would you heave a sigh

of relief? You would get the money jobs on Anglesey that it would

provide without you having to, if you like, compromise or principles

on nuclear power. I would always want decisions on the future of

nuclear energy, all energy, to be taken by Volz politicians in Wales.

So it is a matter of regret to me that that decision, just as of a

wind farm and large renewable energy applications, are being

decided by Westminster politicians rather than by elected Welsh

politicians. Leanne Wood, you risk losing votes of members on Anglesey,

surely, with your position on this. It is difficult but you have to

have a national policy. You cannot decide policies about individual

constituencies, I think. You have to decide what is in the Welsh

national interest. Plaid Cymru members had decided over many, many

opportunities at conferences, that we can power Wales in future

without the need for a new nuclear power station and I support the

members in their view. Are you putting your political convenience,

Dafydd Elis-Thomas, above the interests of Wales? No, and I

regret that throughout the campaign Plaid policy has been

misrepresented. I spelt it out earlier and I will not waste time

spelling it out again. The party has supported the replacement of

existing reactors and existing sites at its most recent conference.

This is a new nuclear power station. It is not on the same site. Yes, it

is on the same site. It is considered a new station and Plaid

Cymru is clear that it is not in favour of it. Elin Jones, if you

had the choice, would you go for it? No, I am against a nuclear

power. You do not fear a backlash on Anglesey? I do not. If the

powers on the political decision rested with me I would have been

planning their and in north-west Wales to use the renewable resource

and develop it, long before we were in the situation we are in now. But

I am a pragmatic politician. We are in this situation. They will be a

decision by the UK Government and I want the people of North West Wales

to benefit from that if the decision is taken. But in a

different situation it would not have been the decision I would

wanted to take. Let's move on to talk about the kind of leader that

you would be of Plaid Cymru, if you are successful in a couple of weeks.

The outgoing leader, Ieuan Wyn Jones, said at the weekend that it

was his view that the party should take the opportunity to get back

into government if the circumstances were right, at its

earliest possible chance. Do you agree? Yes, I hope to be back in

government in May in a number of local authorities. I meant at

Assembly level. Those are the same issues. If you are standing for

election, the point is to get elected and do things. I do not see

the difference between being in government for in Cardiff, or any

other areas of Wales I referred to, and being in government. What would

be the right circumstances for planned to return to coalition with

Labour in this Assembly term? think we have got it today. This

opinion poll seems a fine basses for collaboration. Why should we

wait for the Silk Commission, or anything that responds to the UK

government, for us to come to an understanding that we should move

forward on fiscal powers and we should make sure that we have got a

jurisdiction for Wales and the development of devolution as the

Welsh people clearly, and I don't put -- pretend this is a referendum,

and I do not particularly want another referendum - but in terms

of a mandate at an election, I would be happy to lead on those

issues so that we would be returning next time into the next

Assembly, the fifth Assembly, with fiscal powers. Leanne Wood, are you

as keen to get into another coalition with Labour before the

next election? Every political party wants to be in government.

You put forward a programme and you want to put it into operation. But

at the moment Plaid Cymru needs time to work out what our programme

is, and we should only enter into coalition when we can agree a

progressive programme which takes Wales on. Have we not had a

committee looking at that which reported a few weeks back to learn

the lessons of the previous Assembly elections? Once the new

leader have that on their desk? That work has been done. We need to

get serious demands from going into coalition. I am not clear what

Labour could actually deliver to progress Wales in the direction

that we want to going. I think we should take some time to think

about what our next short-term objectives should be and how we can

progress them by going into government. Elin Jones. Welsh

Labour would have to shift significantly from where it is at

the moment in its positioning in the Welsh government if it was

attractive to me as a Plaid Cymru leader. It would have to change

policy on hospital reconfiguration, be far more ambitious in its

demands for devolution of energy powers. Currently, Carwyn Jones

only believes that energy powers of 100 megawatts should be devolved to

Wales. That is not ambitious. And I would want Welsh Labour to be more

ambitious in what it wants to see as fiscal powers for the National

Assembly. So unless Carwyn Jones and Labour are willing to shift

considerably from their pretty tame position on a number of key issues

at the moment, I cannot see circumstances where Plaid Cymru

would form a coalition with Labour. Looking ahead beyond 2016, what

about a coalition, or some sort of deal with the Conservatives, Dafydd

Elis-Thomas? Would you be open to that in principle? No. Under the

current leadership of the Welsh Conservatives and their Unionist

song, they came out today in response to this opinion poll and

said they were the party of the Union. This is 19th century talk,

even 18th century. Edmund Burke is long dead. I believe in self-

determination. Under a different leader, would you be open to it?

they can find one. They have made their decision and the whole tone

of the Welsh Conservatives has moved far away from where they were,

even two years ago. That is their view. I think Dafydd is absolutely

right on this. The current Unionist diatribe

coming from the Conservatives and Andrew RT Davies in particular does

not chime at all with me as a potential leader. Again, under a

different leader? Who knows what that could bring. I am not in

principle against forming coalitions with any party if the

circumstances are right and the political programme delivers what

is of benefit to the people of Wales. I want to see Plaid Cymru

leading a Welsh government and Labour removed as the leading party

of government in Wales. Leanne Wood, you have ruled out, under your

leadership, a deal with the Conservatives. Could that be a

hostage to fortune in future? would like to recommend a party

rules out going into coalition with the Conservatives. I agree with the

points that have been made about the Conservative Party in Wales and

the current leadership. But there is also what is going on in London,

the cuts. In many parts of Wales, people genuinely fear the

Conservatives. And I feel that it acts as a barrier to some people to

voting for Plaid Cymru. I think we can expand hour appeal into areas,

into former industrial areas for example, where we have had some

success in past but not in a sustained way. I think by ruling

out a coalition with the Conservatives we can be very clear

with people and we can stop Labour running a negative campaign, as

they do every election, when they say, Plaid will go into coalition

with the Tories. Thank you very much for talking to us and we wish