26/04/2012 Dragon's Eye

Have anti-gay marriage campaigners broken the law by taking their

fight into Welsh secondary schools? The Minister has ordered an

Good evening. The latest opinion polls suggest a majority of people

in Wales want some taxes to be devolved, but that may be easier

said than done. Business and accountancy leaders have told us

they are far less keen on the idea, fearing that it could mean a lot

more paperwork. The Welsh Government has set up a commission

to look into the issue and the man heading it up has spoken to

Wales already makes its own money but unfortunately for us it is just

the Royal Mint. They produce it but we cannot use it all for ourselves.

A recent poll for the BBC suggested two-thirds of people in Wales were

in favour of devolving some taxes, although they could not really

agree on which ones. That reflects how tricky it is. What do you

devolve, how do you collect it and how much money does it generate? As

the commission are finding out now it is a difficult issue. Which

taxes generate the most money? The big three are income tax, National

Insurance and VAT, between them raising over three-quarters of all

taxes in Wales. But can they be devolved? National Insurance is

tied in to welfare payments so you cannot really devolve that. That

takes out nearly �4 billion. There are European laws which mean that

devolving VAT would be very tricky. Another �3.5 billion out of it. So

that leaves you with income tax. But even that could be difficult to

devolve, according to accountancy experts. Yes, it is a big

fundraiser in Wales. It contributes to the net tax take. But the

practical implications of devolving that are going to be quite

difficult. For example, how would you appraise or divine where income

tax gets levied? It depends on where the individual lives and

works. It would be quite a difficult tax to devolve and if you

look at Scotland, Scotland has had tax-varying powers on income tax

for the last few years and has chosen not to use them, because of

the complexity. The main body representing accountants in Wales

says that devolving any kind of tax could be problematic. The UK tax

regime is highly complex and it would certainly not make it any

simpler. Our position would be to add a separate layer for perhaps

Wales, perhaps Scotland, perhaps Northern Ireland. To greatly add to

complexity would complicate matters for business. It would not really

be beneficial for businesses in general. There are smaller taxes

like landfill tax, and air passenger duty. But between them

they only generate around some �2 million. Not insignificant but

hardly a large contribution. One possibility is to devolve the

profits of companies, corporation tax. Alex Salmond is keen to have

that in Scotland and the same goes for Northern Ireland. It is 24% in

the UK at the moment, but that will fall in future. Lowering

corporation tax in Wales, the theory goes, could make businesses

more likely to invest here. But small businesses like this one near

Wrexham do not really see it that way. If we had a separate

corporation tax between here and the border, and we are only a mile

or two away, what effect that would have in terms of who collects it,

who pays? Do you then get a situation where you have to pay

corporation tax for the work you do in Wales when you are in Wales and

corporation tax to England for the job? Theoretically, it has to be

handled carefully, otherwise it could be an administrative

nightmare for small businesses. What small businesses really want

is to change the taxes they pay on their property, business rates.

would hope to see a new form of business rate that would be fairer,

more progressive, not levied on the arbitrary value of property that

you do not own, and it would be a means of taxing businesses,

irrespective of whether they have a property or office. Perversely,

conversely, the case is that we are looking for more businesses to pay

less tax. Instead of that business tax being levied on those with

property, it is contributed to by all businesses. So if there is

support for the Government... What else is there? It could borrow like

the UK Government can but the man heading up the Welsh Government's

Commission thinks there could be issues with that as well. The UK

Treasury takes the view that capital borrowing powers need to be

backed or flanked by a tax raising power, so that is something again

we have to be conscious of because clearly if we are going to make

recommendations which are going to be implemented, they cannot be ones

which the Treasury would reject out of hand. On top of that, as we are

technically in a recession again, borrowing more money could be

controversial. The issue of devolving taxes to the Welsh

Government, it really is very That joke is so good we had to use

it twice! Alan Trench is from the School of Social and Political

Science at Edinburgh University and writes the Devolution Matters blog.

Alan Trench, on the face of it, you would expect businesses to support

something that could well reduce their tax burden, so why are they

being so sceptical about proposals to devolve corporation tax? They

fear tax rates might not go down but go up. The other reason to be

concerned from a business point of view about corporation tax is that

it would be administratively quite complex and that complexity would

fall probably more on business than on Government and administrative

agencies because you would have to work out and be able to show in

your corporation tax returns how much of your income originated from

Wales and how much from other parts of the UK. So for larger businesses

particularly, that could get very complicated indeed. From the point

of view of the Welsh Government and the revenue that it can get in, as

well as the possible stimulus to the economy of reducing corporation

tax, what are the sorts of things they should consider in deciding

whether or not to support devolution? Corporation tax is a

very volatile tax and if your job is to provide public services the

costs are pretty much constant and may even go up in a recession, it

is very difficult to rely on a sort of tax that can vary by as much as

corporation tax can. I have some figures here for how much it has

varied during the recession. From the peak in 2007-2008 to the trough

in 2009-2010, it has declined 23% in the UK as a whole. Over a

slightly longer period, from 2007 until now, corporation tax revenues

have declined by 9.2%, while there has been an overall decline of just

under 1%. So you put your revenues under quite a lot of strain. That

is made worse if you really want to cut corporation tax, because rules

mean your block grant will be reduced to take account of that as

well, so the overall amount of money to pay for public services in

Wales will be reduced and reduced in a way that becomes very volatile.

What about the argument that says reducing taxes on business

stimulates the economy and what we need more than anything at the

moment is growth in the economy, so all the devolved governments should

go for it? There is certainly that argument and it is being pushed

very strongly by Scotland and Northern Ireland. I think behind

the scenes the Northern Ireland people are a bit more ambivalent

about it. The question then is whether corporation tax is the main

and best determinant of that sort of growth. There are quite a lot of

levers for growth that are in the hands of devolved governments.

Things like skills in the labour markets and what is known as an

active labour market policy. Particularly in the Welsh case,

business rates, which are already devolved in Scotland and Northern

Ireland. Those may be more effective ways of trying to boost

economic growth than corporation tax. Might the decision be taken

away from the Welsh Government in the sense that if Northern Ireland

goes for it and gets it, and Scotland goes for it and gets it,

Wales is also going to have to go for it and get it or lose out to

more competitive corporation rates elsewhere in the United Kingdom?

There is a risk. I am more sceptical that it would be devolved

to Scotland or Northern Ireland than your question suggests. I

expect it will not be and I think the consequences of devolving it

for the Treasury would be quite alarming and they would be very

reluctant to see that happen. you. The Education Minister,

Leighton Andrews, has asked his officials to investigate after a

Catholic organisation wrote to secondary schools urging staff and

pupils to back the campaign against same-sex marriage. The Catholic

Education Service, which lobbies on behalf of the Church, invited them

to consider the issue during assemblies and to support the

online petition against same-sex marriage by the Coalition for

For some it is a convention but for others, particularly among some

religious groups, marriage is by definition between a man and a

woman. The UK Government is currently consulting on whether

that should change, so that same- sex couples would be allowed to

marry. Many faith organisations have thrown their weight behind a

petition by the Coalition for Marriage's plans. It has emerged

today that the debate has reached into schools. The Catholic

Education Service is defending its decision to write to secondary

schools urging staff and pupils to support the campaign to ensure

marriage remains between a man and a woman. It has been accused of

acting illegally. It makes me feel sick because I think about gay kids

in these schools and what message that gives of the totally

unrealistic and inhuman or inhumane policy of the Catholic Church

towards gay people. Welsh Government education officials are

now investigating because schools and teachers are forbidden from

promoting one side of a political argument. The organisation denies

acting illegally, saying in its view marriage is religious and not

political and it is entitled to raise it in schools. I think it is

right that people in the wider community should be made aware of

what it is that is being proposed, most particularly because there is

a consultation and the Government will look at what the outcome of

the consultation is before deciding how to proceed. Since 2005, gay and

lesbian couples had been allowed to enter civil partnerships, which

gives them similar rights to married couples. Critics at the

time said it would inevitably lead to calls for same-sex marriage.

Many now say that is exactly what has happened, but faith groups are

united either for or against the proposals. Andrew Morton was a

church minister who resigned in protest at what he saw as

homophobic attitudes. In order to have an authentic critique of the

Church as an institution, it was the most honorable thing to do.

proposals would allow same-sex partners to enter into civil

marriages only. Even those religious organisations that wanted

to have gay and lesbian weddings would not be allowed to do so. But

critics argue that if this does go ahead churches would eventually be

forced to perform these ceremonies. The proposal is that this would be

a change in the civil law and it will not affect what happens in

churches or other places of worship. But the reality is we know that our

participation in the European Convention on Human Rights, the

fact that we had this overlay of human rights law, is in my view

very likely to lead to churches ultimately being required to

perform such marriages if the general definition of marriage

changes. No one is proposing that religious bodies be forced to

conduct same-sex marriages. That is just propaganda. It is also

propaganda to say that if we get same-sex civil marriages in

registry offices, this will force the churches to conduct same-sex

marriages. That is not true. At the moment we have civil divorcees but

even though the Roman Catholic Church prohibits divorce, it has

never, ever been forced to conduct divorces. There are disagreements

on whether these proposals go far enough. What they are offering is

quite timid. There is a clear case that in those cases where religious

groups such as Quakers and others that celebrate a marriage, the

legislation should allow them to do so. Within my lifetime there has

been a complete revolution in social attitudes towards same-sex

couples. We have gone one step at a time in that revolution but when

you look back and add it up, it is a revolution. I think it is

important that we carry on doing it one step at a time because if you

try to go too far too fast, then you create a backlash out of

nowhere. Some argue that even if the current proposals go ahead,

there still will not be equality. If the Government legalises same-

sex civil marriages in registry offices, that would be great. But

we will continue the fight to ensure that heterosexual couples

have the right to a civil partnership if they wish and we

will continue the fight to ensure that religious organisations can

conduct same-sex marriages if that is their wish as well. It may be a

subject that ignites passions but there is not a great deal of time

for reflection. There is only a few months left of the consultation if

the Government wants gay couples to be able to take their vows and

declare themselves married before the next election, due in 2015. The

Catholic Education Service refute any suggestion that their action

amounts to campaigning. They have given a statement which reads,

"Catholic state schools have always been permitted to teach matters

relating to sex and relationships education, including the importance

of marriage, in accordance with the teaching of the Catholic Church.

The Church's view on the importance of marriage is a religious view,

not a political one". Joining me is Andrew White, director of Stonewall

Cymru, and from our Millbank studio, Milo Yiannopoulos, who writes for

the Catholic Herald. Welcome to the programme. Milo Yiannopoulos,

before we get to the meat and drink of the issue, could I ask for your

view of the appropriateness of the Catholic Education Service's

decision to write to secondary schools in this way? It is entirely

their right to do so. I will not speak on their behalf but it is

almost certainly true that this is a religious, not a political

statement and request. My personal issues with gay marriage are

actually political and not quite so much religious. We will return to

those in a second. On the issue of the Catholic Education Service's

decision to do this, the Education Minister says he has asked for an

investigation of whether there has been a breach of the law. What is

your reaction? If there is a school in Wales that is encouraging

children as young as 11 to sign a petition against equal civil

marriage, that would be a gross dereliction of the duty of care.

did make it clear that the petition was only eligible for signatures of

those over 16. And yet we already have a case where a school has been

shown to encourage children as young as 11 to be signing that

petition. I am not sure what you mean. That is a very vague slur.

"Has been shown to have suggested". I know no evidence of that. Let's

move on to the meat and drink of the issue. Perhaps you could

explain why it is that you oppose the proposal for same-sex marriage.

Aside from religious questions, and I will not speak for the Catholic

Education Service or the Catholic Church, my objections to it are

twofold, both political. The first is that I deeply resent being used

as a political tool by David Cameron. This is really a very

cynical vote-winning strategy by the Prime Minister to appeal to

people who are not going to vote for him anyway. The second reason I

am troubled by it is that by racing into what is an enormous change to

a very substantial institution, which it is not an exaggeration to

say is the cohesive glue which holds society together, we run the

risk of serious consequences. I speak specifically about the war

that will break out, and it will break out, between the gay

community and extremist gay activists like Peter Tatchell who

you had in your report, and the churches. Because what will not

happen is that the Catholic Church will not bend on this. And nor, by

the way, will the mosques. What I will find very interesting to watch

is, when the inevitable human rights challenge is made, what will

happen when the Imams in Tower Hamlets are told they have to

legally perform gay marriage. is no suggestion under the

proposals at the moment to force any religious organisation to

conduct religious same-sex marriage ceremonies. In fact, it is ruled

out. You see, the issue is that, while that may be true and the

activists like to say this, of course what we know and have seen

is that the European Court of Human Rights has no compulsion about

overriding some of those rulings where it is considered to be an

issue of human rights. It is very clear, from looking at similar

cases, that what will happen is a test case will be brought and

churches will be... Forgive me for interrupting but I must give Andrew

White his fair say. A slippery slope that will ultimately end with

a religious organisations being forced to act in contradiction of

their beliefs? We are used to Milo Yiannopoulos and his argument of

the slippery slope, along with many others. It is no such thing. The

consultation states that this is not a religious marriage, it is a

civil marriage. If you take the example of Spain, Belgium, Portugal,

all of them Catholic countries, and all have had same-sex marriage for

some years. There have been no such cases. Let's look at the Human

Rights appeal court and the arguments that Milo Yiannopoulos

used. No one has appealed under human rights legislation on the

grounds of religious freedom or marital status to force the

Catholic Church to marry divorcees or non-Catholics. It is just a

hysterical argument. What about the point that this could cause a

backlash against the gay community? I believe the term he used was that

this could start a war between gays and straights, if certain

extremists on either side decide to take up cudgels over this? Many

lesbian and bisexual and gay people of faith would disagree with the

arguments being used against civil marriage. If there is to be a war,

it will be one declared by Milo Yiannopoulos and his compatriots.

That is obviously offensive and untrue. That is absolutely not the

case. The important thing to remember is that nobody has

actually asked for this. This is not something that has even been

demanded by the gay community but it is something that will be used

by activists to make a point. You mentioned countries where this has

been brought in. I do not think you really want to get into the case of

Spain, for example, where since gay marriage has been instituted in a

Catholic country, the instance of homophobic violence has skyrocketed.

This is probably not something that you know much about but it is

something I have been looking into. Well, is it something that you know

much about? Let's talk about the current narrative. I think that

means no. The narrative that talks about same-sex relationships as not

being as worthy as heterosexual relationships. That narrative leads

to increased bullying. Let's talk about the statistics - Milo

Yiannopoulos is a fan of statistics. Two-thirds of lesbian and bisexual

students in schools are bullied, 17% receive death threats. 1000

homophobic hate crimes reported in Wales in the last two years. I am

going to leave it there. Thank you There is one week until the local

government elections. Tomos Livingstone has been looking at

whether local or UK-wide issues have dominated the campaign.

Before local elections, there is no shortage of political news, but

with the economy in recession, the focus is on the national picture.

So, are the elections about local issues, or is May 3rd a referendum

on the UK Government? I have been knocking on doors with local

election candidates since shortly after the Assembly elections last

summer. We have had a whole sea of candidates with local manifestos in

each of our local authorities, setting out local priorities. But I

do not shy away from or apologise for the fact that we have also

talked about the national picture. It is an issue voters have raised

on the doorsteps. There is certainly no love for the Tories or

Liberal Democrats and I think they are in for a tough night. These

elections are about actually doing something for communities, creating

opportunities within the local economy. We have done that in

Cardiff. 600 jobs created there. In Gwynedd, we created a fund which

has safeguarded or created over 300 jobs. In Caerphilly, we created 100

apprenticeships. That is what we are offering the people of Wales.

Labour hopes to benefit from the UK Government's recent problems, but

what of the parties actually in power at Westminster? They would

prefer the elections were about local concerns. The Welsh

Conservatives will be fighting on a local level. Where I have gone

round Wales, people have been addressing local issues. We have a

positive platform about freezing council tax, increased funding for

schools, greater transparency in local authorities so that people

know where the money is going. But I accept there is an issue about

mid-term and Westminster news. But from the Welsh Conservatives and

the response we are getting, people want answers about what is going on

locally. Labour, for some reason, do not want to talk on the issues

relating to the election. Last year, they wanted to talk about the

Westminster government. This year, in council elections, they do not

want talk about the local government. They do not want to

talk about the level of council tax investment in local services. And

the reason is because Labour has such an appalling record at local

council level. Problems at Westminster can spell trouble for

local councillors. That is what happened to Labour in 2008.

Ultimately, it is for the voters to decide what is more important, the

performance of their local council, or what they think of the UK

Government. Tomos Livingstone joins me in the

studio. Westminster issues, or local issues? This is the axis on

which all local elections turn, whether they are about the local

council, whether the bins are collected on time, local services

delivered, the level of council tax, or are they really about

Westminster? Are they mid-term elections, to all intents and

purposes, about the UK Government? Last time in 2008, it was the time

of the 10p tax row. A Labour Government at Westminster getting

rid of the 10p income tax rate, affecting low income people. That

had a huge effect on the local elections. Labour lost dozens of

seats across Wales and beyond. As we saw in that film, there are

people hoping that the boot is on the other foot this time around,

and that the problems of a different UK Government, the

Conservative-Lib Dem administration, and there are plenty of those,

everything from the Leveson inquiry to the economy going back into

recession, Labour hoping it will perhaps work the other way and they

will win back some of the ground lost in 2008. I sense that it will

have an effect but will not be the dominant issue in the way it was

four years ago. Do you get a sense of the expectations for how they

are likely to do? Labour are hoping to win back some of that ground and

they did very badly in 2008, down to 344 councillors across Wales.

They will be looking to get back close up to and beyond 500

councillors next week and will be looking to win back control of some

of those authorities in the valleys that they lost last time. The test

is whether they can win back control of the big authorities and

the cities, Swansea, Newport and Cardiff. Plaid Cymru, a big test

for the new leader, Leanne Wood. They will be hoping to take control

of some authorities where they have been knocking on the door,

Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, also hold off a challenge from Labour in

Caerphilly. The Conservatives will be looking to do well in the areas

where they did well in last year's Assembly elections. A tough night

for the Liberal Democrats. Peter Black said earlier this week that

the party is competitive in the wards they already hold, and that

is the sound of a party crossing its fingers. Let me ask about an

unrelated matter. Keith Davies, the Assembly Member who is being

investigated by the Assembly's Standards Commissioner. What is

that about? After a night out with other Assembly members and

political figures, Keith Davies, after going to to a bar in Cardiff,

ended up at a five-star hotel in Cardiff Bay, where he was staying.

At some point during the early hours of the morning, staff at the

hotel contacted the Assembly authorities, who had arranged for

him to stay there, expressing concerns about his behaviour. We do

not know much more, but the Standards Commissioner of the

Assembly is looking into it and can perhaps shed some light on this

mysterious story. Everyone is scratching their heads as to how he

ended up in such a situation. you. That is it for this week. The

e-mail address is on the screen if you want to get in touch. We are