Part 3 Election 2016

Yes, a very good afternoon, welcome back to the BBC Election Centre. We

will be here throughout the afternoon and bring you up-to-date

with what is happening around the UK. We are talking principally in

Scotland about an historic third victory for the Scottish National

Party in the Parliamentary elections. 63 seats after the

results came in, two short of an overall majority this time. But it

was a very strong performance by the SNP. Also a very good night for the

Scottish Conservatives. Their leader Ruth Davidson won a seat in

Edinburgh Central. She has been celebrating gains elsewhere in

Scotland. The Scottish Labour Party, however, pushed into third because

of the strong Conservative showing. A disappointing result for them. But

a very different story, it has to be said, for Labour in Wales, where

they have won 29 seats in the National Assembly. Holding onto

power. They have been in power for 17 years in Cardiff and they will be

there for another five years. And a good result for Ukip in Wales, they

have taken seven seats in the Welsh Assembly, their first representation

in the Welsh Assembly. Plaid Cymru's leader, Leanne Wood, a notable

victory in the Labour stronghold of Rhondda, where she unseated Leighton

Andrews, a former Minister in the Welsh Assembly. And in the endless

council elections, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says predictions for

his party, losing councils, have not come true. Instead, he says Labour

have been growing their support. David Cameron, on the other hand,

visiting Peterborough, saying it might have been a data dread for him

as a Prime Minister, but it had not materialised, and Labour had lost

touch with the hard-working people they are supposed to represent. -- a

data dread. Votes are still being counted, so don't think it is all

over. In the London Assembly on the London Mayoral contest, such a very,

very ferociously for Grace in recent weeks, around three quarters of the

first preference votes counted. -- ferociously fought race. Labour's

Sadiq Khan has a sizeable lead over the Conservative Zac Goldsmith.

With a bit of luck, we will have some more clear signals on the

London Mayoral race, which has been very controversial to say the least.

I will be talking to my guests, Justine Greening and John Ashworth,

for the Conservatives and Labour. Thank you for joining us. But before

we talk to you, we will catch up with all of the day's news and get

some of the figures and reactions. Yes, as you say, results are still

awaited in the campaign to be the Mayor of London. Most of the votes

for Police and Crime Commissioners and the Northern Ireland Stormont

assembly. This is the round-up of all the political points so far,

from Carol Walker. A third term in power for Nicola

Sturgeon, although the SNP fell just short of an overall majority, but

the result confirms our party's grip on politics in Scotland. We are

seeing a huge vote of confidence in the SNP record in government, and an

enormous vote of trust in our ability to lead the country forward.

But Conservative leader Ruth Davidson had reason to be cheerful

too, winning Edinburgh Central and overtaking Labour to become the

second largest party in Holyrood. The beleaguered Liberal Democrats

retain their five seats in Scotland. The result was a serious blow for

Labour. The former party leader Johann Lamont, one of the political

casualties. The current leader Kezia Dugdale said she was heartbroken

that her party had been pushed into third, but said she would remain as

leader no matter what. Good morning, everybody! Jeremy Corbyn went to

Sheffield to congratulate one of two Labour MPs, Gill Furniss, who won

the by-election caused by the death of her late husband. These elections

are being seen as a test of Mr Corbyn's leadership. We were getting

predictions that Labour would lose councils, and we didn't, we hung on

and we grew support in a lot of places. There is a lot more results

to come today. Labour hung on to some of the council is considered

vulnerable in their northern heartlands, and retain control of

Southampton and Hastings along the south coast. Critics say the party

should have done much better. It was a really disappointing night for the

Labour activists who have been out there, campaigning for months, and

Jeremy needs to take responsible a deep for a poor performance

yesterday. For goodness sake, get behind the leader of the Labour

Party who was democratically elected. It is time to put up or

shut up. David Cameron new it would never be easy for the Conservatives

to fight elections while his Ministers are openly disagreeing

over Europe, but in Peterborough where the Tories took control, he

said the modest gains represented a great day for the Tories overall.

Election day for sitting Prime Minister's is meant to be a day to

dread, sitting there waiting for someone to knock on the door like a

condemned man waiting for the hangman, but that is not what it was

like last night. Or today. We have held councils right across the

country. Ukip has gained at least 20 seats in England and won seven seats

in Wales, depriving Labour of an overall majority. A big breakthrough

for us, in Wales in particular but right across the country, our vote

share is up. In England, coming second almost everywhere and

beginning to break through and get more firsts as well. Votes are still

being counted in London and elsewhere, but already these

elections are providing an important snapshot of public opinion a year

after the general election. We have been expecting a statement

from the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, on her intentions.

She has just started speaking in Edinburgh. The day after a momentous

election victory for the SNP. Yesterday, the SNP made history. We

became the first party to win a third consecutive Scottish

Parliament election, and secure a third term in office. We won the

highest share of the constituency vote. And the largest number of

constituency seats ever achieved in a Scottish Parliament election. We

are the very first party in the era of devolution to poll more than 1

million votes in constituencies across our country. The result of

the election was emphatic. The people of Scotland once again placed

their trust in the SNP to govern our country. We won a clear and

unequivocal mandate. And I secured the personal mandate I sought to

implement the bold and ambitious programme of government that I asked

the country to vote for. So I can confirm that when it reconvenes in

the coming days, I will ask the Scottish Parliament to formally

re-elect me as the First Minister of Scotland. It will then be my

intention to form and to lead an SNP government. With such a large group

of MSPs elected, I don't intend to seek any formal arrangement with any

other parties. However, the Government I lead will be an

inclusive government. It will be firm on our determination to deliver

on the commitments we made to the Scottish people. But it will also

reach out and seek to work with others across the Parliament, to

find common ground and build consensus. Election campaigns

inevitably focus on differences and on dividing lines. But I believe

that if we choose to find it, there is common ground are plenty to build

on. -- aplenty. I made clear that education will be the defining and

driving priority of my tenure as First Minister. And I expect to be

judged on that. I reiterate that commitment today. Education is my

passion and my priority. And because of that, I was heartened that all

parties chose to put a clear focus on it. So I hope we can put party

differences aside and work together, in CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.

Opportunities for all of our young people, regardless of their

background or circumstances. -- insuring label opportunities for all

of our young people, regardless of their background or circumstances,

that must unite us not divide us over the next five years. Climate

change and protecting the environment, and putting support for

innovation at the heart of our effort to transform the productivity

of the Scottish economy. And of course the SNP's determination to

use new powers to mitigate austerity, invest in our public

services and build a social security system based on the principles of

dignity and respect is, with perhaps one exception, shared by other

parties in our Parliament. So the Government I lead will reach out. We

will govern with conviction, with ambition and with determination. But

also with humility and a willingness to listen and to learn from the

ideas of others. And on the question of independence, let me say this.

The SNP will always make our case with passion, with patience, and

with respect. But our aim is to persuade, not to divide. We will

always respect the opinion of the people. Now and in the future. And

we simply ask that other parties do likewise. You know, it is the

greatest privilege imaginable to be elected as the First Minister of our

country. To those who voted for me and the SNP yesterday, thank you me

from the very bottom of my heart. You have given me a precious

opportunity to change this country for the better, and I promise to

seize that opportunity with both hands. To those who did not vote for

me, I promise you that I will never stop striving to own your trust and

your support. Like all politicians, I am passionate, very passionate,

about the ideals I believe in. But as First Minister, I know that I

have a duty to rise above party politics and to govern in the best

interests of all of our country. My pledge today is that I will always

seek to do that. Whatever your politics or your point of view, my

job is to serve you. I will always fight Scotland's corner, and I will

work every single day to make our country fairer, wealthier and

stronger. I relish the opportunity is that this next term of Parliament

presents. And I now look forward very much, after perhaps a few

hours' sleep, to getting on with the job. Thank you very much.

STUDIO: So there we have Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister,

acknowledging the fact that she now has a personal mandate, as she has

been calling it. Getting ready to put a stamp on that government for

the next five years. Very interesting that she has gone out of

her way several times overnight, and today, to address those many

thousands of Scottish voters who did not back the SNP in these elections.

Saying that she wants to earn their trust, and that she is going to

govern for all people in Scotland, whether they back the ideal of

independence or not. Because of course that is still the principal

goal of the Scottish National Party. Nicola Sturgeon, into the official

seat of government in Edinburgh. We are going to go to Kevin Keane, my

colleague who was listening to that. What did you read into those

messages, of reaching out, and indeed the tone of the message on

the way that she will approach the independence question again? Well,

that's very much been the theme of this SNP government throughout.

Remember, of course, before that last term in Parliament, their

first-term which began nine years ago, they were in the same position

they are in now, they didn't have a majority. They were in a minority

and they had to reach consensus. Every time they had to put forward a

new budget. This puts them back in the same position. They are only two

votes short of a majority, and by the sound of it, they feel confident

they would be able to reach that when necessary. Of course, John

Swinney, the Finance Secretary, Deputy First Minister now, was very

much involved in that. That position, that phase, continues to

be in the same seat. Nicola Sturgeon herself was involved in all of those

negotiations then, as Deputy First Minister. But it is very much like

Nicola Sturgeon to try to reach out to other parties. It is a

Parliament, remember, that is meant to be one of consensus and

agreement. This is the first step in her third term, the SNP's third term

of trying to do that. Thank you. What I would like to do now is join

Kezia Dugdale, at the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood. Thank you so

much for joining us. It's been a very long nice. Afternoon. Thank

you. It's been very tough for your party. Talk us through the

expectations that you had and where you think you are today. It's been a

very disappointing election for the Scottish Labour Party. You have to

remember that we had a very difficult general election campaign

last year. We went from having 41 MPs to just 1. Last night I lost a

third of the Labour MSP group here in the Scottish Parliament. It

appears in Scotland we've returned to the constitutional arguments of

the past. The final days of the election campaign have focused on

issues of independence and remaining part of the United Kingdom. The

Tories have benefited hugely from being the party to say they oppose a

second referendum on independence. Lots of people in Scotland were very

fearful of that. The Scottish Labour Party had a commitment to oppose a

second referendum as well. We were trying to binge together people who

voted yes and no, with a positive vision of the future of Scotland,

which was about using the new powers of this Parliament. Powers over tax

and welfare that will allow us to make different choices from the

Tories in Scotland. So I very much regret what's happened overnight but

the Labour Party will get back together and make that case for

building a more fair and equal Scotland. For viewers loo are

joining us, you are no longer the official opposition in Scotland,

that the Conservatives have overtaken you and they are pleased

about that and they've been underlining that achievement

overnight. Do you think that that's a reason for people to question your

position as leader in Scotland? Or do you think it's early days and

you've got more work to do? I've made it very clear that I intend to

remain as leader of the Scottish Labour Party. As I said to you I

took over the leadership of the party under difficult circumstances

last year, when we lost 40 members. I turned around our party so it

could be fit to return again. Last night's result is of course a bad

result for the Scottish Labour Party. We lost a third of our MSPs.

I believe there's fresh blood coming into the Scottish Parliament next

week. That belief that the Scottish Labour Party has ideas, values and

principles that are fit for the people of Scotland. Trying to heal

this nation of ours which is divided along lines of yes and no, to make

different choices from the Tories. We've seen the result of a timid

campaign from the SNP. They are back in power but with no majority, and

an official opposition that will challenge them to do less, to cut

more, and I think it's the role of the Labour Party now in Scotland to

stand up against austerity, to continue to make the case for how we

can stop the cuts, using the powers of this Parliament behind me. Make

different choices from the Tories, to stand up for working people the

length and breadth of this country. Ian Murray says, I don't think the

public see the UK Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn at the moment as

being a credible party of future Government in 2020. Do you agree

with that view? To be honest, I'm taking full responsibility for the

campaign I've run here in Scotland. I believe it was right for us to

focus on the positive arguments for why people should vote Labour here

in Scotland. Appealing to people who voted yes and no. That sense of

making different choices from the Tories. I always said I was the

leader of this campaign, so it is always the case in the event of a

big defeat or a bad night that you look to apportion blame. That's not

what I'm going to do today. I'm going to reflect on the result and

get the Labour Party in Scotland fit for the future again. To be clear,

are you telling our viewers you don't think the leadership of the

Labour Party, and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, was any factor, or did

it play a part? It's quite apparent that when people saw a can divided

Labour Party across the country it wasn't particularly appealing in

terms of getting people's votes and being focused on the future. I would

appeal to people to unite behind our ideals, our values and principles

and focus on the future. We have to get back to making the arguments for

why Tory ideals that smaller government, cutting taxes instead of

stopping austerity are the wrong ideas, the wrong values for our

country at a time when we need to invest in our public services, to

invest in education and grow our economy. I would appeal from a

united Labour Party focused on our values and principles that's ready

to rebuild for the future. Kezia Dugdale, thank you for joining us.

Thank you. That's Kezia Dugdale, the leader of the Labour Party in

Scotland. That was interesting on several counts, not least to do with

the last answer there, acknowledging that a divided Labour Party has not

helped her position there. Can I bring in John Ashworth for Labour

and Justine Greening for the Conservatives. The message from

Kezia Dugdale, what did you make of it? Mfrnlts I thought Kezia handled

herself with tremendous dignity there, the taking responsibility for

the defeat in Scotland. Getting back on the front foot in Scotland is a

long term project. I hope we can be competitive to get into Scotland for

2020. For a credible prospect for government we need to show we can

win support. It is arithmetically impossible to form a government

without Labour MPs in Scotland, but to look credible for Government we

need to gain in Scotland. It is a longer term project given the

devastating result in Scotland last year. And given what she said about

a publicly divided party. What are your thoughts on that? I think

Labour Party members wants us to pull together and focus on the

Tories. Throughout this campaign when we've had various noises off,

hall I put it like that? We've got to really take the fight to the

Tories over the next few months and years. I don't think this is a very

good Tory Government, to be frank. It is getting harder to see a GP.

Class sizes are on the rise. George Osborne's budget became a shambles

when he tried to cut ?4 billion from system of the most vulnerable

people. Labour Party members want us to focus on these issues, and voters

as well. Why didn't Labour make any proper gains? Or any gains at all?

We have had quotes from MPs, Alison McGovern, saying losing control of a

single council would be an unacceptable betrayal of people. Jo

Cox said it was a disappointing night. Ian Australiain, I no ethese

aren't necessarily Jeremy Corbyn's biggest fans, but we've had hoping

to win back disillusioned voters. Do you think the pert could win in 2020

on these election results? The goal Jeremy set the Labour Party was to

improve the vote share against the terrible result we had last year. I

am pleased that we've managed to hold on to councils which a lot of

the experts told us we were going to lose. Some people told us we were

going to have a desperately catastrophic night. I would much

prefer it if we had done a lot better. Wont I want to do over the

next weeks and month to go to these places, like Nuneaton, where we

should have done better, and engage with voters and ask why they don't

vote Labour in these elections. Clearly the demise of Labour in

Scotland started before the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. But

they are now in third place in Scotland. And she blames a party

that is not United. What do you say? I think Scotland is a massive

challenge for the Labour Party. I can't pretend it isn't. You've gone

backwards. Coming third behind the Tories is a terrible result for the

Labour Party in Scotland. I would say this, we over the next four

years have got to make Scotland a political priority for us. If we

want to be a credible prospect for government in 2020, we have to be

competitive in Scotland. It was interesting that rite Davidson said

she thought she was picking up lots of votes and doing really well

because she pursued a very robust and clear line on the union. And

rejecting this thought of a second referendum and the case for

independence. She said because she was offering a clear line on that

and Labour wasn't sufficiently, in her view, that was the main reason

for Conservatives' success in Scotland. Is that your receiving of

it? I think it is to do with that. I think it is to do with Ruth's

personal leadership and the way she has conducted this campaign. People

can see her as the only person that can really hold the SNP to account.

That's what we want to see from a credible opposition. I think for us

as a Conservatives, this is the first time in over a century that

we've beaten the Labour Party in Scotland. So it is a real

breakthrough moment for us. I think what it shows is that we are the run

remaining party in Britain now that's a one-nation party that's

representing people all over our great country. I think possibly the

problem for Labour is that my view is in Scotland as in so many other

parts of the world, of the country, they've lost touch with grass roots

public opinion. I think they've not been out there on the doorstep

talking to people for a long time. I think the in Scotland they took

their electorate for granted. I think the problem is that if

Scotland's anything to go by be, it is not just that people think that

Labour aren't a credible alternative Government. They don't think they

are a credible opposition either. The entire premise of Jeremy

Corbyn's leadership and election is because he is backed up by grass

roots position that he is in this position, because he says he's in

touch with that that he is a leader with a big mandate. I don't agree

with that. I think he is somebody who's got extreme views, who is the

leader of what used to be a mainstream party. That's the real

problem. You are seeing that in these election results. John? The

Labour Party is of course a mainstream party. It is extreme to

be forcing schools to become academies. The way in which the

Tories are undermining the NHS is pretty extreme. The way in which you

wanted to cut ?4 billion off some of the most vulnerable and disabled

people in society was a pretty extreme proposal from George

Osborne. We have to focus on people in the next weeks and months. Let's

pause. This is quite a big moment for us having been broadcasting for

hours and looking at all the election results, Scotland and

Wales. They are still counting in London. Based on those council

results in England, what we are able to do is produce a projected

national share of the vote. In other words what would have happened if

there had been a general election. I won't spoil the surprise. Let's go

to Jeremy. We've been on air I think for 15 hours now with a couple of

breaks. We have about 900 wards in the English council elections that

we look at. I think they are pretty much now all in. I'm going to give

you what we call n. I'm going to give you what we call our projected

n. I'm going to give you what we call our projected national share -

the scores would have been had the election happened in all parts of

the UK. For the main national parties that we are seeing here.

Let's look at this. Labour in first place. 31%. An improvement clearly

on their score in 2015, when they lost the general election to the

Conservatives. Just behind them, not far behind them, 30%, you have to go

back years and years to find a situation where the two main parties

combined were under 62%. Lib Dems, third place. 15%. Ukip, quite

impressive on 12%. And the others on 12% here. Let's take in these

figures. It shows that Labour are in the lead in our projected national

share. Our idea of what would have been scored had this election

happened across the whole country not just in the English councils,

where it is being held. I will show you change now. It won't surprise

you if we look at change since 2015, the positions reverse. That's the

year when the Conservatives won the general election. Labour are up 2%

since their performance last year. The Conservatives down 5%. Not a lot

to write home about for the Conservatives. They haven't had

enough welly to push Labour out of councils in the south, where you

would have thought they were vulnerable. Lib Dems the up 4%. But

they can say the momentum is everything. We are moving in the

right direction. The direction is up for the Liberal Democrats. They

haven't expired as a political party. You cup down 1% since last

year The others are where they were. This is change since 2015. Change

since 2012. We've come back to again and again during this programme. It

was year in which the council seats we've been looking at tonight,

yesterday, overnight and this morning, were last fought. Ed

Miliband put in a spark ag performance in 2012, he was in his

honeymoon. Labour have not done as well, down 7%. The Conservatives did

poorly in 2012 and they are down. How can they all be down? The

arrival of Ukip have taken all of those votes. Votes. They weren't

really on the board from 2012, but their arrival has done this. Labour

is hurting compared to 2012 but more impressive compared to 2015. That's

interesting Jeremy. That prompts a few questions for Labour and the

Conservatives. I want to bring in John Curtice. We had a stream of

Conservative guests saying, we are having a great time. We are

relieved. David Cameron in Peterborough said it's fantastic.

How do we square that with what we've seen on the projected national

share of 30%? Well, what the Conservatives have been arguing is

they expect to do badly because they are in government. And by badly they

mean doing a lot worse than the principal opposition. The truth is

the Conservatives aren't doing that well, although they are not doing

catastrophically badly. But their performance is roughly on a par,

slightly worse with what they achieved in 2012, which you will

remember occurred shortly after George Osborne's omnishambles budget

which at the time was blamed for what was regarded as a relatively

poor Conservative performance. The Conservatives are beginning to

demonstrate evidence of a degree of midterm blues but they are not as

serious as you would see an other occasions.

Labour will say they are doing better than last year, making

process. Yes, absolutely. And Mr Corbyn's critics will say it's not

enough progress. It is simply not as good for Labour in 2012, it is also

slightly less good than it was in 2011, the first year when Ed

Miliband had to fight local elections as a leader. So the truth

is, as is so often on these occasions, both sides will have

evidence to support their argument. But on both sides the argument

probably came before the evidence! Indeed! A final point, is there a

Lib Dem revival? How well, how badly have Ukip done in relative terms? In

truth, the Lib Dems have scraped themselves off the floor from the

2015 election. Their worst performance since the founding of

the party, with the amalgamation of the former Liberal Party and the

SDP. But at 15%, they are still not doing as well as they did in 2011

and 2012. When we got those results, we said, boy, oh boy, aren't the

Liberal Democrats paying a big price for being in coalition with the

Conservatives? Historically, they are meant to be the past masters of

local government elections, percentages way into the 20s. They

are still nothing like that. It has not been an election in which the

party has done very much to rebuild its base. As far as Ukip are

concerned, they can basically say, and we saw this in the Assembly

elections in Wales, they have more or less hung on to what they

achieved 12 months ago. And a member by historical standards, that was a

phenomenal performance for a fourth party in England. But equally, they

have not made much progress or exploited the EU referendum. Because

of the first past the post system, it means they have only made about

20 gains or so. Not a lot in terms of reward for the votes they have

managed to achieve. John, thank you. Very interesting, the projected

national share, Labour on 31, the Conservatives on 30, the Lib Dems on

15, Ukip on 12, the others on 12. That is what would have happened in

a general election based on the results in England. I raised that

point with John Curtice, because 30% at this stage of the game... How

would you grade it? As John says, it is roughly what we achieved in 2012

and 2013, and we went on to win the election last year. It also reflects

the fact we have a difficult mandate to continue fixing public finances,

asking councils to deliver more for less, which they are doing. This is

as much a vote on whether people think their local authorities are

delivering. But you are also seeing, in key election battle ground places

like Peterborough, Bury where we picked up seats, Nuneaton...

Everyone will remember the Conservatives taking Nuneaton last

year. We are doing well. So we are making progress. As John says, it is

one after an election and we are bringing forward a challenging but

sensible plan to get the country back on track, and that also gets

reflected. Is it fair to say that you might have done better had you

not been in a position where you have a budget which starts to

unravel a bit, you have the Panama papers scandal, the Prime Minister

having to defend that... It has been a turbulent time in terms of

headlines for the party. The poll ratings are up since the budget, so

I don't think that is right. I would reiterate, we are doing well in the

key election battle ground seats, the places where we focused. For us,

this is not only a real breakthrough moment in Scotland, but when you

look at the rest of the country, particularly key places in England,

we are doing well there. Except you haven't done well in those key

places in England. Of course you have cited Peterborough because that

is the only place you have done well. What about the councils were

Labour were predicted to have terrible losses and lose councils, a

string of them across the South? You have not capitalised on that. You

haven't managed to excite the voters at all. I think that is slightly

reverse psychology... Crawley, Southampton... None of these places

the Conservatives could have made gains because they were predicted to

lose them. We have worked hard in all of those places. In some key

election battle grounds, we did very well. It tells you where the Labour

Party is that the discussion is, even though we are bringing forward

a challenging mandate for government, taking difficult

decisions, actually the discussion is not about us being under

pressure, it is actually about the fact we have put Labour under

pressure. And in some places that pressure has come forward with more

seats, in other places we have not quite managed it, but I am really

proud of the work we have done. A huge amount of work by activists on

the doorstep, finding out what people's issues are, making them

their own and then starting to work actively on fixing them. You talk

about Bury. In Bury North, a Conservative held seat, we would

have won that if it was a general election. In Bolton West, we would

have won that seat last night in a general election. In Bury South, you

picked up one seat, I believe. In Bury North, the seat you currently

hold, you would have lost it to us in a general election. The same in

Bolton. In Swindon, marginal constituencies. We would have taken

seats from you in Birmingham. You don't hold them at the moment but

they tend to be seats which are competitive. We have held onto

Hastings Council, a key seat that we fight very closely over at a general

election. So your argument that we're not making progress in

marginal constituencies which decide general election, I'm not sure

stacks up. Jeremy Corbyn describe it as hanging on, rather than progress.

Those were Hibs words. -- his words. What impact has the referendum had?

I can genuinely say, having spent a lot of time on the doorstep, talking

to voters, it has not, as an issue. People have seen Boris campaigning,

the Prime Minister campaigning. -- it has not come up as an issue.

People recognise that the EU referendum is hugely important. Now

the local elections are out of the way, the voter attention will turn

to that. But in terms of the fact that there are people on the

Conservative Party on different sides of the referendum... The Prime

Minister has been clear that people could take different sides and the

voters have accepted that. Liam Fox was sitting in that chair many hours

ago saying that he had been out canvassing and that all people

wanted to talk about was the referendum. You are talking to

different people! I was answering the question that whether

Conservatives being different sides of the fence has made a difference,

and it hasn't. Ukip have been the beneficiaries of a lot of the seat

changes, haven't they? That can only be because of the debate about the

EU referendum and whether we should remain or leave. I don't think

that's quite right. In some places where they have done better, what

you are seeing is them picking up seats from the Labour Party. There

is a sense of Ukip, if you like, taking some of that protest vote,

the disgruntlement that there is more broadly across Britain at the

Labour Party. We are still waiting for more results to come in in

London, the London Mayoral election. We will be talking more about this

during the day, but, John, on the really very, very tough,

controversial issue of allegations of anti-Semitism and the rest of it,

which engulfed the Labour Party in this campaign, I am noting that Len

McCluskey -- Len McCluskey said it was a cynical attempt to manipulate

anti-Semitism for political aims. Is that your understanding of it?

That's not what I would say. I have been in the Labour Party for 22

years, since I was 15, we are not an anti-Semitic party. We are disgusted

by anti-Semitism and we are resolute in our -- opposition to

anti-Semitism. People tweeting disgusting anti-Semitic comments,

they are suspended from the Labour Party and they will be looked at by

the relevant committees of the Labour Party and dealt with. Also,

one of the more high-profile individuals who was commenting

recently... He has been suspended from the Labour Party as well, and

the National Executive committee will look into it. Look, there is no

place for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. We are disgusted by

it, we are opposed to it and we are taking it seriously. Do you think it

had an impact on the campaign? Kezia Dugdale said it unquestionably had

an effect. Of course it did. It was in the headlines for days. Talking

about headlines, Fraser Nelson of the Spectator and Kevin Maguire of

the Mirror, thank you for joining us. Your reading of the results and

where it leaves the Conservative Party, first of all. This is

obviously a great day for the Conservative Party in Scotland. The

phrase Scottish Conservatives is no longer a contradiction in terms. An

incredible victory by Ruth Davidson. To re-establish a base in rule

Scotland, to become the official opposition in Holyrood, an

incredible achievement. One that I think Labour did not expect to lose

to the extent which they have. In England, much of a muchness. In

Wales, Ukip seem to be the main winners. Ironically for Labour, it's

not so bad that Jeremy Corbyn has to go. And Cameron cannot really take

credit for Scotland because he never visited. Difficult to work out the

overall winners and losers, apart from Ruth Davidson in Holyrood.

Kevin, what is your reading of where Labour and Jeremy Corbyn stand

today? Standing still. A very good result in Wales where it lost far

fewer seats. Almost certainly going to win the London Mayor, a big plus

for Labour, although Jeremy Corbyn did not play a large role in that

campaign. In England, Norwich, councils in Exeter, Hastings,

Crawley, it lost far fewer seats than was expected. Hardly a party

moving forward and looking as if it is on the road to victory in a

general election. Labour is still badly split. Jeremy Corbyn is not

going to face a coup, but a lot of his MPs still believe he is not a

credible leader. Fraser, we were talking about the referendum as a

backdrop. To what extent did that play a part in this campaign?

Judging by the Ukip vote, it does not seem to have played a big part

at all. A few years ago, we were looking at huge Ukip gains in local

authorities, and now they are not a player. Nigel Farage was talking

about Scotland, but that was not the case in the European elections where

they were the only party to gain seats in Scotland. But interesting

how the voters have completely separated the issue of the

referendum from the question in front of them in the various

elections yesterday. Kevin, you touched on it there, but

post-referendum, because that is clearly a very big milestone coming

up, what is your sense now of the kind of mood within Labour today as

far as the leadership is concerned? There is still a small group,

several dozen MPs, who would like to mount a coup and topple Jeremy

Corbyn. But they realise they haven't got support across the

Parliamentary Labour Party and they won't have it amongst the party

members in the country. If they somehow managed to trigger a

leadership election, Jeremy Corbyn would win again. The most

significant intervention today was Tom Watson, the deputy leader,

saying, look, he has only been there eight months, you can't behave like

this. It will not silence Jeremy Corbyn's critics, but they are

weaker today than yesterday. I will turn to one of those critics now,

the Labour MP in Leeds. Michael, your sense of where you are today.

All of the Labour Party now needs to come together and reflect on what

was a huge set of results. Every corner of the country, Ireland in a

meeting a few weeks ago, everyone, everywhere will have a vote for

something. -- I was in a meeting. A big test for Jeremy. He won the

leadership election with a strong mandate, but we should also

understand that mandate. It was a mandate to win power, and looking at

these results today we can say, are we on a trajectory towards winning a

future general election? I am afraid I am not convinced we are at the

moment. That ought to be alarming for those of us in the Labour Party

that see the disarray in the Conservatives. I think this is the

worst Conservative government I can remember since Major in the bid 90s.

We should be storming ahead at the moment and that is not the feedback

we were getting on the doorstep. -- the mid-90s. The party has to come

together and reflect on these results. Let's remind viewers of

what John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor, said earlier today.

What is your response to that, because you are still making the

case that you don't think Labour's on the path to power. Well, I think

it was Jeremy Corbyn who talked about having a party where we could

have debates and where there's room for a little dissent. I know he's

rather gone off the idea of late, but it is really important when

you've had a big set of election results like this. If you look in

Scotland, Jeremy and John McDonnell were clear that the anti-austerity

hard left message, anti-Trident that was in the Scottish manifesto, that

will be the key to transforming our fortunes in Scotland. And we

finished third behind the Conservatives. We've gone backwards

in Wales. In England no Leader of the Opposition has gone on the win a

general election without making gains in local elections. Average

gains in local elections for a Leader of the Opposition in a

non-general election year are over 400. If you are going to win a

general election it is over 500. We haven't come anywhere near those

results, so I don't think I would respond by putting our fingers in

our ears. We have to listen to our members, particularly those knocking

on doors and our hard-working councillors. I'm sorry for those who

lost their seats. And those fighting council seats where we should have

won. We should be listening to all of those people and coming together.

I hope that's what all of us can do in the coming weeks as well as

fighting that EU referendum which is so critical for the country.

Michael, I want to bring in Jo Coburn. Michael, your colleague John

Trickett, on the projected national share, which put Labour ahead of the

Tories by a small margin. He says fantastic news for Jeremy Corbyn's

Labour, the first test in a lip and we've beaten the Tories. What do you

say to him? It is a good try, John, but it's not fantastic news. Those

of hews knocked on a lot of doors, as I did, know the reception on the

doorstep. Look at the result in Scotland. Look at us going backwards

in Wales. Look at our inability to make gains in England. It is not a

fantastic result. Of course we should be doing better. What is the

Labour Party for? We were founded so that we could get into Parliament,

form majorities, form governments so we could deliver for the people we

are in politics to serve. This is not a gain. There are very, very

high stakes here. We've got to have a Labour Party that can defeat the

Conservatives. I'm afraid at the moment there just isn't the evidence

that that's happening. I think there should be alarm bells ringing at the

moment. What we need to do is to come together and focus on the

results. Why is there an 11% swing against Labour in Nuneaton? That was

the moment a year ago when we knew we lost the general election. We

have not done this badly in local elections since 1985. We went on to

win two general elections after that. My constituents in Barnsley

can't afford more Conservative Government, so we've got to get our

act together. But are you calling for everybody to rally behind Jeremy

Corbyn when you say you need to be united? We have to do two things.

First, come together behind that EU referendum campaign. That's

critically important for the country. The second thing, we can

have debates about opinion polls but we have to reflect on the verdict

the country has delivered. We are clearly not on a trajectory to win

the general election. But my question was, should you unify

behind Jeremy Corbyn now? I think we have to ahead of that EU referendum.

But I hope hasful that all of but I hope that all of the party can get

the focus on the people again. It is no good getting people on the demo,

filling meeting halls and talking among ourselves. Unless it transfers

into real support from ordinary British working people who

desperately need a Labour Government, that we convince them,

that they can put their trust in us the, that the issues that are

important to them are important to us as well. We haven't done that I'm

afraid in recent months. Michael Dugher, thank you. Bringing are up

the issue of the referendum that's coming up. It is a good moment to

bring in Ukip's leader in Wales, Nathan Gill. Congratulations on your

results overnight. Thank you Huw. You are in Bangor in North Wales.

Your response to the fact that Ukip now for the first time has a

representation of I think 7 seats in the National Assembly. That's

correct. We are over the Moon. We aimed to ensure that everybody in

Wales had a Ukip AM to represent them, which went... We got two in

North Wales and two in South Wales East, which has given us seven.

We've gone from zero to seven. We are the first party since the

creation of the Welsh Assembly to get in there afresh. We think we've

done very well last night. How are you going to work with people like

Neil Hamilton and Mark Reckless. When you were asked about the

selection of these people you said it wasn't be ideal, it wouldn't be

your choice. How are you going to form a relationship with them now

you have to work with them? Well, we are big boys. We can put thing

behind us. We've got goals we want to achieve. We are in politics for a

reason, because we want to do something good with our time as

politicians. Not squabble or fight. Fight. We've put that behind us.

We've got behind each of the candidates. Behind our manifesto.

We've moved forward and we've been very successful in this campaign. It

is difficult when for example the wife of one of your colleagues

called you a third rate general. That's not exactly being subtle. I'm

just asking how you are going to knit together as a team. There's a

lot of scepticism about how you will achieve that? There may be, but

every time we meet we get on well. We are united behind a common core.

That's how we'll knit together. What are you hoping to achieve there?

Let's talk about policy. Give than we are looking at another five years

of a Labour Government in Cardiff. Absolutely, but they are in a

minority, so they are going to have to do a deal with somebody. We are

not saying they'll have to do a deal with us specifically, but there are

many things we want to stand up for. For instance the devolution

settlement. We are absolutely opposed to the creation of more AMs,

more Assembly Members. Which is what Labour wants to do. The other thing

we really stand against and we are going to be a strong voice in that

Assembly about is tax-raising powers. In 2011, and I'm sure you

will remember this Huw, coming from Wales, when we had that referendum

on further powers, the First Minister said specifically there

would not, that a "yes" vote would not lead to tax-raising powers. Now

there is that cosy consensus they all want us to have those

tax-raising powers without a referendum. What we are saying is

no, you must do that promise that you said and give the meme of Wales

a referendum on tax-raising powers. There is lots of areas. We've got

the elections next year for every single council in Wales. Again,

Labour want to reduce the number of councils from 22 to possibly 8. We

think this is an attack against democracy and local democracy, so we

need to ensure that this doesn't happen as well. Nathan Gill, nice to

talk to you. Thank you for coming in. You're welcome. That's the Ukip

leader in Wales. A very important moment in Welsh politics, because

they have representation in the rebel Assembly for the very first

time. Nigel Farage has been underlining that as one of their

principal achievements of the entire set of elections we've been through.

Through. Natalie Bennett is here from the Green Party. Good

afternoon. We'll come to you for in a second. Emily, if you can tell us

more about the Green performance and I can talk to Natalie about that.

They haven't had a great night, to be honest, Huw. I want to take you

into a few individual ones in English councils, and Norwich. Can

Labour hold off a Green challenge? The answer is a stark yes for

Labour. They are on a majority of 13. The Greens are in second on 10.

Overnight you can see losses for the Greens. They are down in a part of

the world where we would expect and hope to do pretty well. Let me show

you a similar pattern in Oxford, where the Greens have been quite

strong. Labour in pole position on a majority of 20. If you look at the

Greens, they are falling. They are down two. Select Committee have

seats, they are a presence on that council but they are down again. A

different story, however, in Solihull. Here you see it is a

Conservative council. They are holding it with a majority of 13.

And there are modest gains, just one. No movement on the council

except for that gain for the Greens. I know you are going to talk to

Natalie Bennett. It hasn't been an overwhelming success for the Greens.

Patches of light but nothing spectacular. Emily. Thank you. Is

that fair Natalie? . I'm disappointed to lose some great

councillors in Oxford and Norwich. But if you look at the West

Midlands, one of our councillors got 75% of the vote, a ringing

endorsement. Worcester Council, people have been hearing all through

the night it fell from Tory to no overall control. Louis Steven

brought a brilliant campaign with the Tories throwing everything but

the kitchen sink at it, and he won that seat. We are looking at the

Scottish Greens, who rememberled their representation in Holyrood.

Andy Wainwright is a real campaign reform early. Ross will be the

youngest MSP in the Scottish Parliament. We are still waiting to

hear the final result but it is looking good in London, where

Rebecca Sian Berry's positive campaign, who has good ideas to

improve the life of people if London. That's resonated and done

very well. What achievement are you looking at in London in terms of

your share or your position? There are still votes to count, but it

looks increasingly likely that Sian will finish a clear third in that

election, which follows from the achievement of Jenny Jones in the

last election. In the Assembly it looks like we'll finish a clear

third as well. I remember Sian said there were high expectations in

terms of her performance. The challenge there being against a

notably green campaigner in Zac Goldsmith, which lots of people have

made a big deal of. And in a way according to quite a few of

commentaries, the that's marginalised, not my word, but used

by some commentators, marginalised the Green campaign. Is that your

sense of it? You were up against someone who made such a play on his

Green credentials. Someone said Zac Goldsmith's campaign was 99% Lynton

Crosby and 1% ecologist. Sian, whether it is in terms of housing,

trying to provide affordable housing for Londoners, or the single TfL

ticket, ideas to tackle air pollution, things that would really

improve the lives of Londoners. We are seeing Londoners voting in

response to that. I'm getting a note from curt that. I'm getting a note

-- from John Curtice. He said the Greens have a party net loss of four

seats. John says I think this has to be seen as a disappointing night

after maintaining support in opinion polls from the general election.

Would you refute that? One of the things we have to do is wait and

see. Bristol, in Bristol West we had a 23% swing to us in the general

election. They are not counting the council seats until Sunday. We

haven't had results yesterday from Stroud, an area of Green Party

strength. That figure may well change in the end result. Rochford

District Council in Essex, we've had another gain, which probably updates

that figure which you might not have yet. I'm bound to ask, how sensitive

are you to criticism about your role and performance as leader and could

the Greens, as some have suggested, have done better under a different

kind of leader? I think if you look at my record as Green Party leader,

when we started we had 12,000 members, and now have 60,000

members, a fivefold increase. Before the general election I said let's

set a challenge of standing in 75% of seats. We stood in 93% of seats.

The Green Party has come a long way. In terms of the share of the vote

between Labour and Tory, it hit historic lows. The march tomorrow on

electoral reform, first past the post system, whether in local

councils or Westminster is clearly no longer fit for purpose. Why do

you think it was more disappointing in English councils? Councils? What

do you think was behind that? I think if you look at what happens,

we've done well in the West Midlands, where 27 councillors on 11

councils, we are representing in every council there. Where we've

struggled and lost really good councillors in places like Oxford

and Norwich... Which were your strongholds. Because of the

first-past-the-post electoral system, in both cases you've got a

large Labour majority council, and they've got seats they know are

safe, so they are able to focus all the fire power as the Greens on the

opposition. This isn't unique to the Green Party. This is true in places

up and down the country, where someone has a one-party

state-typeset-up it is hard for other parties to get a foothold. We

did a lot of work in Manchester, but it is still very much a one-party

state. Do you think the Jeremy Corbyn impacts has taken some of

your Green support, because they feel, there's a man we can do

business with? I think Norwich is an example of this, I think it is

perhaps the Clive Lewis effect in Norwich. He is a popular local MP

and that's helped galvanise Labour campaigners. We've got a look at how

we can tackle this. We are not despondent. People are saying look

at what we can achieve, look at how we can go forward, look at the West

Midlands. Natalie, thank you. Just coming up to three o'clock. The

weather now. Good afternoon. Much talk across the

programme about Scotland. Straight away to the western side, things a

little bit improved on yesterday. The weather is not looking bad for

many of us. A bit more cloud than of late across England and Wales. A

decent enough day. Watch out for the pollen levels, pretty high at the

moment. And also the UV has been high. Not such a problem across the

eastern side of Scotland, where we have had more cloud. If you are

stepping out later on for an evening walk, temperatures having reached

23-24, they will still be around 20 across London. A bit cooler around

the coast. Into the North of England, that is where the

temperatures begin to fall away. Northern Ireland, the greater part

of Scotland. Although quite a pleasant evening in prospect for

Glasgow. Overnight, we will keep the warm air pumping up from the south

around the area of low pressure, but notice the low pressure begins to

close on us. Quite a close night across the southern British Isles. A

bit fresher further north. We will start to see the first signs of this

more disturbed weather beginning to get into the south-western Court of

the British Isles through the day on Saturday. It will big grin to

migrate further north. The timings are bit uncertain. -- it will begin.

Heavy on thundery weather, some hail as well, particularly late on as the

heat begins to percolate into the Derbyshire Peaks and the southern

Pennines on a warm day across England and Wales. Less so across

Northern Ireland and Scotland. Not helped by the onshore breeze. 10-11,

as with today, on the coast. And also low cloud to the eastern side

of Scotland and the north-east of England. Come Sunday, we will start

to push the rain away from the Western Isles eventually. Behind

that, the chance of isolated showers, but no less intense for

that. You will really begin to notice, especially through the spine

of the British Isles and even into southern Scotland and Northern

Ireland, you will have found several degrees. Many areas pushing towards

20 degrees. Towards the south-east, you could be looking at 26-27.

Welcome back to the BBC Election Centre. We are here throughout the

afternoon bringing you up-to-date with what is happening around the

country. A few headlines. It is an historic third victory for the

Scottish National Party in the Scottish Parliamentary elections.

The SNP's Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister, says she will not seek any

formal arrangement with any other part is, after falling two seats

short of an overall majority this time. -- parties. An excellent night

also for the Scottish Conservatives and their leader Ruth Davidson, who

won a seat in Edinburgh Central. Other gains too in Scotland, moving

up into second and the main opposition. A different story for

the Scottish Labour Party, pushed into third. A disappointing result

for Scottish Labour. We talked to Kezia Dugdale a while ago. But a

very different story for Labour in Wales, winning 29 seats in the

National Assembly. They will hold onto power in Cardiff. A much better

result, it's fair to say, than many in Welsh Labour had been predicting.

A good night for Ukip in Wales, there's Neil Hamilton. Seven Ukip

members of the National Assembly, the first party representation in

the Assembly in Cardiff. Plaid Cymru, well, Leanne Wood, the party

leader, had a dramatic win in Rhondda, an ceding, but elsewhere

the party did not make the gains it was trying to make. -- on seating

Labour. Jeremy Corbyn said predictions that his party would

lose councils have not come true. He said Labour had been growing their

support. We saw David Cameron in Peterborough earlier today. He says

what might have been a day of bread for him as a sitting Prime Minister

has not materialised. -- dread. He said Labour have lost sight of the

people they are supposed to represent. Votes are still being

counted in City Hall on the banks of the Thames in the race for the

London Assembly and in the contest for the Mayor of London. In that

race, with most of the first preference votes counted, Labour's

Sadiq Khan has a sizeable lead over the Conservatives Zac Goldsmith.

With me in the studio, Jo Coburn is still with me, Justine Greening for

the Conservatives, Jon Ashworth for Labour, and Ken Livingstone the

former mail of London is with us. -- Joanne Ashworth.

Results are still awaited in a number of polls, including the

campaign to be Mayor of London. In most of the votes for Police and

Crime Commissioners and Northern Ireland for the Stormont assembly.

Here is our political correspondent Carole Walker with a round-up of

everything we know so far. A third term in power

for Nicola Sturgeon. Although the SNP fell just short

of an overall majority, the result confirms the party's grip

on politics in Scotland. The result of the

election was emphatic. The people of Scotland once again

placed their trust in the SNP We won a clear and unequivocal

mandate and I secured the personal mandate I sought to implement

the bold and ambitious programme for government that I asked

the country to vote for. But the Conservative leader,

Ruth Davidson, had reason to be cheerful too, winning

Edinburgh Central and overtaking Labour to become the second

largest party at Holyrood. The beleaguered Liberal Democrats

retained their five seats in Scotland, but the result

was a serious blow for Labour with the former party

leader Johann Lamont one The current leader, Kezia Dugdale,

said she was heartbroken that her party had been pushed

into third place but said she would Jeremy Corbyn went to Sheffield

to congratulate one of two new Labour MPs, Gill Furniss,

who won the by-election caused These elections are being seen

as a test of Mr Corbyn's leadership. We were getting predictions that

Labour would lose councils but we didn't, we hung

on and we grew support And there are a lot

more results to come. Labour hung onto some councils

considered vulnerable in their northern heartlands

and retained control of Southampton But critics say the party should

have done much better. It was a really disappointing night

for all those Labour activists who have been campaigning for months

and Jeremy needs to take responsibility

for a poor performance. For goodness sake, get behind

the leader of the Labour Party who was democratically elected,

it is time to put up or shut up. David Cameron knew it would never be

easy for the Conservatives to fight elections while his ministers

were openly disagreeing over Europe. But in Peterborough,

where the Tories took control, he said the modest gains represented

a great day for the Tories overall. Election day for sitting prime

ministers is meant to be a day of dread, when you are sitting

there waiting for somebody to knock on the door like a condemned man

waiting for the hangman. But that was not what it was like

last night or today. We have held councils right

across the country. Ukip has gained at least 20 seats

in England and won seven seats in Wales, depriving Labour

of an overall majority. Votes are still being counted

in London and elsewhere. But already these elections

are providing an important snapshot of public opinion a year

after the general election. Carole Walker, BBC News,

Westminster. In other news, the management buyout

team Excalibur has said it hopes to secure funding to rescue

Tata Steel's UK It's to meet bankers next Friday

for talks about financing a deal. But Excalibur says any buyout

proposal is likely to involve The Government has made a

significant concession in its bid to compel schools to become academies.

Good and outstanding schools will no longer have to convert, and in rural

areas local authorities will have a say before a decision to close

schools. And no small rural schools will be forced to join a

multi-academy trust. It is thought these changes to legislation,

planned for the autumn, will satisfy the main concerns of Conservative

backbench MPs. Rescuers are searching for a man

missing after shelving collapsed at a food distribution

warehouse in Shropshire. Specialist sniffer dogs and drones

are being used to try and find the worker,

after units full Firefighters are cutting

through the roof of the building It's not known why

the shelving came down. We are going to pick up on the story

that Jane mentioned briefly, which is the change, potentially a very

significant change, to the Government policy on making schools

in England become academies. Plan when Jefferies, our education

editor, is in Loughborough, where Nicky Morgan was talking. You have

discovered what is going on. Tell us what the intention is. Huw, I have

just been speaking to Nicky Morgan at her constituency office. It is

clear the Government is making a very significant U-turn on one of

the key components of its controversial academy plans. It is

dropping the part of its plans which would force good or outstanding

schools in England to become academies whether they wanted to or

not, by 2022. That deadline becomes more of an aspiration, which leaves

open the possibility that in some areas, good schools could still be

overseen by local authorities. And there is another key concession too,

significant movement on what happens to small village schools. One of the

key concerns for rural MPs for Conservative backbenchers. There,

the local authority will be able to have a say in whether or not a small

school would close. A significant concession because it means there is

still a degree of local democratic accountability in the

decision-making about these much loved small schools. Just a thought

from you on what has led to this U-turn, as you put it, and whether

the changes you have now outlined to us will be enough to really answer

some of the concerns that some Conservative MPs and local

authorities have been expressing in recent weeks. Huw, the brutal

reality was that in their current form there was no way they were

going to be able to get these plans through Parliament. So many

backbench MPs had been speaking about concerns, asking the questions

about good schools, if it is not broke, why fix it? Why intervene

where things are working well and the local authorities are supporting

schools to provide a good education for their pupils? That element of

compulsion was the key concern of everyone I have spoken to. Something

else happening behind-the-scenes too, many people who were supporters

of the idea of the academy programme, who believe it can offer

the potential for schools to improve, were also beginning to

privately voiced their concerns. And of course, now we are past the local

elections, there was the possibility that many more councillors and MPs

would have felt able to voice their concerns if the Government hadn't

given significant ground. Very interesting, thank you for bringing

that story to us. Can I point out that she was reporting from School

Street in Loughborough, the location was ideal!

Justine, our education editor says it is a U-turn, a significant

concession. Does it surprise you? Nikki was clear that she understood

the concerns people were expressing were genuine. We will have to see

what the details. The sense is clearly that, over the past 60

years, 1.2 million more children in good and outstanding schools. -- the

past six years. The plan is to keep the positive elements of the overall

proposal on academies, which has seen us free up the system so

parents have more chance to get their children in a school that

works for them. Giving teachers more freedom but at the same time raising

standards. Keeping that a sick principle in place, it has seen more

children in good and outstanding schools. -- basic principle. But we

need to work with local communities and go at a pace that works for

them. And focus particularly on areas that need to improve first,

and then come to the ones that are already doing a better job perhaps

after that. Some words from Nicky Morgan now. This will give us a

sense... In other words that element of

choice goes in there, so it's official. Jo, for you how

significant is that? It is a massive climbdown. Only last week we were

talking to Ministers in the department and in the Government

saying that this was a central plank of your education policy. To compel

schools, even if they were good or outstanding, even if they were

successful rural schools, you were going to compel them by 2022 to

become academies. It is a massive climbdown because you weren't strong

enough to push it through. I think Nicky Morgan has listened to the

concerning with raised and is reflecting those. Those. We are

trying to have a schools system that's better placed to drive

excellence whilst at the same time making sure there are more and

different and new schools out there that can enable parents to find the

right school for their child. That's what the Academy system and free

schools will do. You're an experienced politician, why did the

plans get to that stage, launched with such prop innocence, if you had

done all the right work they wouldn't have got to that stage, so

you must ask questions about the process that went up to that. The

there was a huge amount of work has went into the white paper. But just

asking people, they would have said happily, we are not happy with it.

There was a huge amount of work that went into the white paper. It

doesn't matter how much work you put in, in the end the only real way you

will find out what the broad spectrum of opinion is is once it

gets published and the debate begins. This was a proposal which I

think essentially we are sticking to. It keeps at its core this point

where we think that academies and freeing up the school system is the

best way to ensure improved standards. We've seen over the last

five or six children, more children, 5 or million in good or outstanding

schools. This is a approach with real, positive benefits for

children's schools. We want to pragmatically recognise that people

had genuine concerns and it is sensible to take those on boards. It

is difficult to square what you said about standards, when 30-35 local

authorities said they didn't think this plan would lead to better

standards. That is a direct contradiction of the rationale for

the thing in the first place. When your own colleagues in local

authority say sorry, not just one or two local authorities but 37

actually, when they say it is not going to work, you weren't listening

in the preparatorily stages. I don't think that's right. As an imagine

who represents a London seat, we've seen dramatic improvements in London

schools. Academies have been able to change schools that were in special

%s, I had one in my constituency, and free schools. Clearly they are

central to how we've improved standards. I think what local

authorities were also saying is there are other things that local

authorities have done that have contributed and where schools

already at a level where they are improving and they are go or

outstanding, what they are saying is the focus of the Government needs to

be on the areas that are still letting down children, and that's

quite right. I was ren, and that's quite right. I was just going to say

- sorry to interrupt. Let's focus once again on more results on the

London Assembly and the mayoral election. I think we have some

images of Sadiq Khan, should is out and about today, the Labour

candidate. It is a fantastic day, the sun is shining.

REPORTER: Are you feeling confident? I'm the least complacent person you

will find but I am enjoying the good weather today. You must be nervous.

I'm always nervous. Has it been the last 24 hours, has it been crazy? I

love the campaign. I always enjoy talking to Londoners, listening to

Londoners, and the last 24 hours have been fantastic. Nationally for

Labour, I think a lot of hopes are pinned on you now aren't there? I'm

focusing on making sure I enjoy the good weather. I'm looking forward

to, are you OK? I'm looking forward to the count later on. And Barnet,

do you think that might prove to be an issue. Let's wait and see.

STUDIO: I'm glad we didn't force Sadiq Khan into the hedge there on

the streets of Tooting I think it was. That was Sadiq Khan walking

around enjoying the sunshine, answering a few questions from one

of my colleagues. I will bring Ken Livingstone in that moment. Let's

join Emily for a second. Probably gets the prize for the most awkward

campaign walk yet, but there'll be something else to cheer him up when

he looks at the fist results from the London Assembly. It is the body

that scrutinises the work of the London Mayor. At the moment, you can

see just one result, Bexley and Bromley. This is a safe Conservative

seat. It was never going to change hands. But if you look at what's

happened overnight you can see how the Conservatives' share of the vote

has fallen. It is down seven. Ukip makes the gains here in this part of

south-east London, up 10%. But the swing takes it from Conservative to

Labour of 3.2%. If that sort of swing were replicated in seats

across London tonight, Labour would hope to pick up one or two more

seats on the Assembly. They would come in with 8 constituency seats

out of 4. And Sadiq Khan might look at a picture like this and think

that could propel him a good part of the way that areds mayoral post. One

result in. That swing of that order. Maybe we'll see different swings in

other seats. Ken Livingstone, thank you for coming in. Hi. I wonder what

your sense of the campaign is and whether you agree, according to the

first preferences that have come in, Sadiq Khan looks as if he is heading

for a robust win. Sadiq has been ahead in the polls for months. It

looks like he is going to have a bigger majority over if

Conservatives than Boris Johnson had over me in the last two elections.

This could be a very good result. If we are getting a swing in the

constituents... We've got more Assembly seats than before. It was a

good election for the Assembly over four years ago, so any gains from

that is very strong and good for Labour. We've had a 4% swing to

Labour nationwide, according to your analysis. That London result just

then fits in with that. We were just discussing Barnet earlier because of

the strong Jewish vote there and early signs that the Labour vote was

affected an was down. What are your reflections on that, if that's true,

Ken? Let's wait and see. I think the simple reality is that most people

will vote based on issues about income, not these, and Government's

economic policy not about the trivia that's dominated the news. Because

it has dominated the news. It has, terrible. And it is bound to have an

impact. Sadiq was running are 16% in the polls before that anti-Semetism

nonsense blew up and nationally we were 5% ahead of the Tories, not 1.

It has been damaging. Damaging. Those MPs demanding my suspension,

you've cost us seats all over the country. John wants you to be

expelled from the country. I have never said that. I want the National

Executive Committee to follow d duction i process. Want the National

Executive Committee to follow d duction i process. -- to follow due

process. Would that not be the intention? Wait for the facts. Ken

has the right to go to the National Executive Committee and put his

case. The disputes committee is scheduled to meet in July. There's a

process that has to be followed. I think it was the I think it was the

right thing to do - sorry to say, Ken, to suspend you. I say that not

because I have a bitter axe to grind, but I thought in the

circumstances that was the right approach. There is an NEC process. I

think that process has to be followed. Given that you've said

that. I don't think Labour party members want to see me and Ken

chewing over this on national television. They hate it when we

argue on TV. It is what it is. Let the NEC process be pursued. I think

in an election campaign you are better talking about the issues on

the economy, about the issues affecting the health service, about

schools. And by the way I do think this U-turn on academiesation is

draw dropping now. It speaks to a bigger thing. The Tories couldn't

get their tax credit changes through, their PP positive. Changes

through, the Trade Union Bill through. This is a Tory Government

that cannot get its business through the House of Commons. It is a weak

and incompetent Tory Government and we in the Labour Party need to go

after them. I can't think of any time in my lifetime where the

Government has had so many defeats in the Commons. It is unprecedented.

To go back to the row on anti-Semetism. Ken Livingstone, you

said it was trivia confirm I want to remind John Ashworth, who tweeted at

the time, enough is enough, Ken Livingstone has crossed a line, he

doesn't represent mainstream Labour members like me, he has to go. Do

you stand by that, John? I do. That's why when Jeremy suspended Ken

I think that was the right course of action. But I do think it is right,

fair and proper that Ken has the opportunity to go to the National

Executive Committee, put his case and they look into it. One small

correction there, I wasn't suspended by Jeremy, but the party machine.

Last year they suspend one of the staff they had just appointed. Let's

look at the impats on the campaign. You don't think it has had an

impact. No, I do. Right, but your comments directly rather than the

row you say has been manufactured by other MPs. Even Sadiq Khan, who was

further ahead before you made your comments about Hitler and Zionism,

he said I accept it makes it difficult for Londoners of Jewish

faith to feel that the Labour Party is a place for them, so I will

continue to speak for everyone. He went on a to say, Sadiq Khan, has

your comments are appalling and inexcusable and there is no place

for you in that party. I don't blame Sadiq, as he was 12 years old when

Lenni Brenner made his book about the Zionists. Six months ago the

Prime Minister of Israel said exactly what I had said. No-one is

going to accuse him of being anti-Semitic. Is this helping the

Labour Party? Of course not. So why do you want to intervene? I was

asked in a BBC interview about Adolf Hitler. I set it aside in about 30

words. What I deplore is those MPs who have demanded my expulsion could

have gone on the internet and found out that it is actually true. The

Scottish Labour leader, Dugdale Dirk said it unquestionably had an

effect, the row about anti-Semetism and your comments, so they've

stomped Labour in Scotland holding on to what little they had. Had. Do

you take responsibility for that? I don't take responsibility. If I'm

asked by a BBC interview about Adolf Hitler, I will answer the question.

You won't remember didn't in my public career where I have dodged

questions, like some MPs have done all the time. I answered the

question, I stated it, it is true. Those MPs trying to undermine

Jeremy, they blew this up into a big issue. I was there, as you know, and

we asked you a whether Naz Shah, the Labour MP, was anti-Semitic. We

didn't ask you about Hitler and Zionism. It wasn't on your

programme. It was BBC Radio. The question was, is what Adolf Hitler

did illegal? Well, with killing 6 million people was illegal. But you

answered when we weren't asking you about it. John Ashworth is listening

to you again. By reminding people of those comments, do you think it does

the Labour Party good? The issue has got to be resolved. As John as

saying, the NEC has to look into this. I will be able to invoke the

Prime Minister of Israel for saying the same things. People can go on to

the internet and see the Finkelstein interview, which is breathtaking. He

is very supportive of me. Last week a Jewish Londoner stopped me on the

street and said, what's wrong with MPs, don't they study history? John

McDonnell, is he one of those campaign MPs who is whipping things

up against you? If someone shows I said something that wasn't true, I

will apologise. You can't expect someone to apologise for stating the

truth. We should denounce MPs and politicians when they lie, not when

they tell the truth. Do you regret saying those things, given what's

happened? Absolutely. If I had known what the old Blairite MPs would whip

this up into, I would have evaded the question. Not just old Blairite

MPs. John McDonnell is one of those. But those link to do so the far

right Progress group. I'm not, Ken. It was set up by Lord Sainsbury, big

business, and it is funded by the hedge fund managers. But Ken

Livingstone There were a of MPs and Labour Party politicians asking for

you to go, as it was harming the party, John Ashworth being one of

them. You can't blame one wing. Labour losses in Bury, losing two or

three seats in Prestwich. MPs said it caused grotesque offence and

caused a backlash against Labour Party. Down to one person - Ken

Livingstone. Go online and see what Ken Livingstone has said, it is

true. If right-wing Labour MPs hadn't turned this into an issue, it

wouldn't be an issue. Almost anyone with a Jewish background knows their

history, what happened in the 1930s. Let's pause for a seconds. I want to

see where we are with the current race. Let's join Tim don von.

Sorry... Tim, hang on a second, we are trying to fix the sound. We will

come back to you in a second. We will try to get Tim back. A quick

word, Jo, in terms of the indications we are looking for this

afternoon. At what point do you think, unlike in previous elections,

we will be in a position to know where we are? The London Mayoral? It

is true to say that Sadiq Khan has had a fairly commanding lead, even

if it has slipped back somewhat in the last few days and weeks. It may

be that by early evening we will have a result we can declare, but

people will be speculating before then. Let's join Jeremy to shed some

more light. We have just been processing the national share

figures that we gave you earlier. Looking at what would happen had

there been a general election, with the voting patterns we have seen in

these local elections. This is our virtual House of Commons. You need

326 MPs in the Commons for an overall majority out of a total of

650. Let's see which party has the most MPs. It is the Conservatives.

We project 301 MPs for the Conservatives if all the same voting

patterns had happened across the country. It leaves them short of the

overall majority they got last year, so they would have fallen back a

bit. Difficult for the Conservatives to claim it is a great victory,

anything like that, when they are in a situation that, with a wafer thin

majority, any kind of setback puts them into the danger zone. Still,

they would be the largest single party. Labour, the main opposition

party, 253 seats. An improvement on last time but nowhere near

overtaking the Conservatives. The SNP, interestingly, our projection

would have them down three seats, 53. The other parties, notably the

Liberal Democrats have 19. Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Nationalists, four.

A single Ukip MP, as we had last year. The others, mainly Northern

Ireland parties, 19. This is the House of Commons if the voting

patterns were repeated in a general election. People vote differently in

a general election, so this is a rather academic exercise, although

an entertaining one. Secondly, you might think, why is it that Labour

1% ahead in the projected national share but the Conservatives have

more MPs if you put it into the House of Commons? The answer, ever

since Labour lost control of Scotland, their vote has become, in

the words of psephology 'ss, inefficient. They pile up votes in

Scotland that do not become members of the House of Commons. In a first

past the post system, fewer MPs. The Conservatives, the biggest party,

but short by 25. Jeremy, thank you. That has raised a few things that I

will talk to John Curtice about in a moment. But I would like to go

straight to Emily first, to get our first proper result from the London

Assembly. The first result from Bexley and Bromley. Don't forget,

they are not constituencies as such, but it is a way of measuring who is

in the lead in the race to be the London Mayor. A safe Conservative

Party of London, so don't be surprised by Zac Goldsmith on 52%

and Sadiq Khan on 26%. But this is where the story lies, as you can

see, the Conservative share of the vote has dropped by a staggering

11%. Labour making gin, Ukip making gin. The swing is always measured

between the top two parties, it has gone from Conservative to Labour on

7%. -- Ukip making gains. That kind of swing could make Sadiq Khan mayor

on the first preference. The rebate at this point in the afternoon for

Sadiq. 7%, John Curtice. You going to dip your toe into the water and

give us a sense of what you think the Mayoral race is heading? It is

pretty clear if you have been following it, they have counted over

80% of the vote and it seems clear that Sadiq Khan is going to win.

That result from Bromley underlines the point. There is no doubt that

the Conservatives are going to lose the race for the Mayor of London.

The polls have been telling us that. For all of the sound and fury

between the two parties about anti-Semitism on the one hand and

arguments about Islamophobia on the other, it really hasn't made much

difference. We spent a lot of time talking about what might happen in

the Conservative areas of London, the outer boroughs, and that they

possibly were hiding some kind of pattern which might boost Zac

Goldsmith's position. That doesn't seem to be... I would have thought

that if Lynton Crosby's dog whistle politics would affect anywhere in

London, it would be the outer south-east corner of London, such as

Bromley. But it looks as if the dog owners of Bromley have decided to

walk the dog instead. That is one way of putting it. So where Boris

Johnson really did capitalise last time, Zac Goldsmith has singularly

failed this time? Yes, and if you look at the Cannes for the Greater

London Assembly that is also going on, it is not clear that Labour have

made any advance on 2012. -- the counters. Boris essentially out told

his party. It looks as though this time that the outcome of the

Assembly election will be quite close. -- out polled his party.

Don't assume the success for Labour in London is an indication of a

swing to Labour in London, as opposed to Labour simply overcoming

the disadvantage of Boris Johnson's personal popularity from four years

ago. That is very clear, Ken, isn't it? It is interesting, if you look

at the general election last year, so many Labour games bobbins were in

London. If the rest of the country had swung that way, Ed Miliband

would be in power today. -- so many Labour gains. It looks like a very

good night tonight in London for Labour. Interesting to see what

happens in the other assembly seats. Before I came on the show, it looked

like we were close in Conservative held seats, I wonder if we will pick

up any of them. We will see. It does look like a very good evening in

London indeed. Does the potential scale of the victory for Sadiq Khan

surprise you, Justine? There is a very long way to go. One set of

results. As John said, in many respects, probably just as much as

anything else a reflect how uniquely popular Boris Johnson has been as a

mayor over two successful Mayoralties. Let's see where we are

at the end of the evening. Tim, can you hear me? I can hear you clearly.

Bring us up to date. John Curtice has given us a firm pointer. How do

you see things there? I have just heard the Bexley and Bromley result.

In all, around 85% of votes, perhaps a few more now, have been counted.

When it gets to 90%, they take it off the screens and we don't get to

see the progress of the last 10% until the returning officer

declares. But the indications are that Sadiq Khan is a head when you

look at first preference votes. 44-35. A couple of polling experts

have looked at that and extrapolated what they think the second

preference votes... Where they will distribute. It is thought the Greens

and the Liberal Democrats may go for Sadiq Khan and that Ukip voters will

go for Zac Goldsmith. When you factor them in, a suggestion that

Sadiq Khan may win by 57% to 43%. Quite a margin. Nowhere near the

kind of margin anyone would have anticipated a few months ago,

although the polls have suggested that kind of size of victory. This

is in the scale of Ken Livingstone's territory. As an independent back at

the dawn of devolution when the first mayor was elected, in 2000. A

similar margin of victory. Clearly that will raise all kind of things,

the kind of campaign run by the Conservatives and what has happened

as a result. Justine made the perfectly fair point that it is

still early days. Tim, what is your sense now of timing? When will we

get approaching a formal declaration in terms of the outcome? The reason

they are not giving us any very accurate assessment and it is all

guesswork is, firstly, there have been some embarrassing counters in

the past where it has been close to bedtime, some would say after

bedtime, when we got the results. But there are also a number of

things that can still go wrong. Particularly a sense of anyone

challenging any of the votes anywhere. And there have been issues

because of problems in polling stations in Barnet yesterday. There

is a suggestion that if, say, the Assembly result there was close,

there could be a challenge. Or a challenge to the running of the

election, rather than the result. That is why there is caution. If

everything went to plan, we should get it by six o'clock, but people

are reluctant to say that. We should mention turnout. People thought it

had not been a particularly inspiring and that turnout would be

low. Whether it was the sunshine or people have started to come out

privately, concerned by the way the campaign has been run, turnout could

be up to about 44%. Not large, but higher than 2012. Tim, thank you,

from City Hall. As he was speaking, a very good result for the Lib Dems

in Watford. A gain from no overall control. MLA. -- MLE. A rare beast

indeed. The last time the Lib Dems gained a council was 2009. They have

a Lib Dem mayor there. She has been mayor since 2002. The Lib Dems with

a majority of 14 in Watford, taken from no overall control. Labour in

second on 11th. The Lib Dems will have been pleased to have taken

seats from everyone, mostly from their former partners in Coalition

Government, the Conservatives, down five. Labour, down one. The Greens,

down one. This was an all-out election, which means anything can

happen. You can get big results, and the Lib Dems will be delighted with

that. I would like to go down to College Green, Westminster. Waiting

to talk to us, Labour's David Lammy, and the Conservative Mark Field.

They did, your sense of how the London race is going. I was in

Alexandra Palace in North London where the vote is being counted. It

is going extraordinarily well for Sadiq Khan. I could not believe the

numbers I was seeing across North London. But when you look at more

marginal seats, Wandsworth, Murton, areas like Redbridge, he bring, the

Outer London area, it looks like a substantial swing to Labour on the

Assembly and absolutely for Sadiq Khan. A fantastic day for Labour

people across London. David Lammy, you said it was one of the most

divisive campaigns you had seen. You said it had gone into the gutter. Do

you stand by those comments? Absolutely. Personally, I get on

with the Zac Goldsmith, but the campaign has thrown so many smears

around and has not really concentrated on the substance and

the issues in London, housing and the transport system. With all of

those smears, very much the tactic of Lynton Crosby, I'm afraid getting

into very divisive territory between communities, I'm really pleased that

if you look at the vote... I'm sure in a few hours' time, we will see

that London is right across the city have rejected that campaign. And

maybe we will see the back of Lynton Crosby as a result. -- Londons. I

would point out it is your own party that has had people suspended for

anti-Semitism at the moment. It is not something that is entirely to

have fingers pointed at the Conservatives. To be fair, Zac

Goldsmith bid try to put forward a positive agenda. A sense that he

alone could have the of government. -- the of government. Aspirational

in terms of housing and transportation. The demographics of

London are changing. As Ken Livingstone pointed out earlier, the

truth is, there was a 3.5% swing to Labour in the capital in the last

general election. Had that been replicated across the board, the

opinion polls would have been proven right. Realistically, the exception

was Boris Johnson's performance in 2012. He out pawed the Conservatives

by double-digit percentage at that stage. Zac Goldsmith was an unknown

quantity as far as London voters were concerned. He has worked

tremendously hard. It does look as though Sadiq Khan is ahead. I feel

very sorry for Zac, he has worked very hard and has had a more

positive agenda than some would have us believe. I hope that all London