14/11/2011 GMT with George Alagiah


14/11/2011

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Months of protests, thousands dead and growing international pressure.

:00:10.:00:16.

Still, Syria's Foreign Minister reacts defiantly to the decision to

:00:16.:00:20.

suspend his country from the Arab League. If the Arab League's

:00:20.:00:24.

decision to suspend Syria's membership is a seriously dangerous

:00:24.:00:34.
:00:34.:00:41.

Welcome to GMT, I'm Naga Munchetty. Also in the programme: They are

:00:41.:00:45.

appointed, not elected, but Italy and Greece hope the new technocrat

:00:45.:00:48.

leaders will put their economies back on-track.

:00:48.:00:53.

If in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, the man who confessed to

:00:53.:00:59.

killing 77 people in July, has made his first court appearance.

:00:59.:01:05.

Hello, it is 12:30pm here in London, 1:30pm in Brussels and it is early

:01:05.:01:08.

afternoon in Damascus which is where international pressure is

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mounting on Syria to end months of repression that began in March and

:01:12.:01:16.

has left thousands of people dead. European foreign ministers are

:01:16.:01:20.

meeting in Brussels to tighten sanctions against President Bashar

:01:20.:01:26.

al-Assad's regime. The Arab League voted to suspend Syria's membership.

:01:26.:01:30.

Still, Syria remains defiant. The country's Foreign Minister, Walid

:01:30.:01:35.

Al-Moualem, has condemned the move and said Syria will not be treated

:01:35.:01:43.

as another live via -- Libya. From the Syrian government, some

:01:43.:01:48.

grand Theatre. A series of pro- government demonstrations

:01:48.:01:53.

encouraged and choreographed by the authorities. It is all designed to

:01:53.:01:57.

stress Syria's anger and defiance at being suspended from the Arab

:01:58.:02:01.

League. Many of these Syrians genuinely support President Assad.

:02:01.:02:06.

Many others have been pushed to attend. The government has not lost

:02:06.:02:12.

its centre of self-righteousness. TRANSLATION: That Arab League

:02:12.:02:16.

decision has not been issued by a unanimous vote. It is illegal. It

:02:16.:02:21.

does not rely on the legality of the Charter of the league. We have

:02:21.:02:26.

said in the past and we would like to stress again, that Syria has

:02:26.:02:31.

dealt and is dealing with the fires of reforms and dialogue and for

:02:32.:02:36.

halting blood spilling of the citizens. The the Foreign Minister

:02:36.:02:40.

did apologise to these attacks at the weekend on the embassies of the

:02:40.:02:46.

countries which have been toughest on Syria, including Qatar, Saudi

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Arabia and Turkey. It seems Syria now regrets a move which just

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antagonised its opponents and made any compromise with the Arab League

:02:56.:03:01.

any less likely. Already, ministers from the European Union are meeting

:03:01.:03:07.

to discuss further sanctions on Syria, with new pressure also for

:03:07.:03:11.

action at the UN Security Council. We have taken very strong measures

:03:11.:03:16.

in the European Union, as I said, we can add to those. I don't see

:03:16.:03:22.

any other, the most specific proposition that we can react to.

:03:22.:03:27.

We will discuss things further at the United Nations Security Council.

:03:28.:03:31.

Sanctions are already biting, although these queues for gas at

:03:31.:03:35.

the city of Homs, could have been caused by the government trying to

:03:35.:03:40.

starve out the opposition who are strong there. A ban on the sale of

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Syrian oil to Europe is hitting a vital source of currency for

:03:44.:03:48.

President Assad's government. Opposition supporters have been

:03:48.:03:51.

celebrating the Arab League decision but already calling for

:03:51.:03:55.

more. They want a no-fly zone and military intervention but for the

:03:55.:04:02.

moment, those are not on the agenda. In men, we will talk to our

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correspondent Matthew Price in Brussels -- in a moment. First of

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all, we can speak to Jonathan Head in Istanbul. I do not think Turkey

:04:11.:04:16.

could have made its position any more clear? I think now the Turks

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are making it absolutely clear that they have given up on President

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Assad, a man with whom they have built the strongest relationship

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with any government. Turkey says it will now back the justified demands

:04:31.:04:37.

of the Syrian people by campaigning against the Syrian government. They

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are angry about the attacks on its embassies but they also angry at

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the failure of President Assad for the promises he made earlier this

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year. It does not want to go out on its own taking international action

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against Syria, it wants action from the United Nations, China and

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Russia. That could change if the Arab League stands by its

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suspension. Turkey is talking about imposing more sanctions and as one

:05:06.:05:10.

of Syria's biggest trading partners, they could have a big impact,

:05:10.:05:15.

especially if it targets banking or the oil industry. A lot of Turkish

:05:15.:05:21.

businesses would lose out. It has not yet formally recognised the

:05:21.:05:24.

Syrian National Council as a representative of the Syrian people.

:05:24.:05:28.

The big steps from Turkey is yet to come but the language is very

:05:28.:05:35.

hostile against the Syrian government. Jonathan, thank you.

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Matthew, in Brussels, leaders' meeting today, what is expected to

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come out of this meeting? I have been led to believe there what will

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happen is there will be a tightening, if you like, of the

:05:49.:05:56.

sanctions -- sanctions. Further sanctions against the individuals

:05:56.:06:01.

who EU foreign ministers believe are connected with the repression

:06:01.:06:07.

in Syria. Also trying to cut off even more the financial flows to

:06:07.:06:15.

Damascus. It is expected the investment bank will cease

:06:15.:06:19.

disbursing its loans to Syria. That is all part of a strategy from the

:06:19.:06:24.

European Union to further isolate Damascus. What Jonathan has been

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talking about also feeds into that strategy. As Jonathan said, they

:06:32.:06:37.

need the Arab League countries to be applying pressure. And then that

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other thread of this, if you like, the sanctions on one hand out of

:06:41.:06:44.

Europe, the pressure from the Arab League but the third important

:06:44.:06:49.

thing coming from the UN, trying to brush countries like Britain,

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Germany, France and others, trying to push for a very strongly worded

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Security Council resolution condemning what has been going on

:06:57.:07:02.

in Syria. At the moment it looks like the Chinese are starting to

:07:02.:07:07.

come more on to that side. The big hold out in the Security Council as

:07:07.:07:13.

of are the Russians. The foreign policy chief for the European Union,

:07:13.:07:17.

Catherine Ashton, is going to Moscow on Friday for talks with the

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Russian Foreign Minister. One source has told me that although

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they do not hold out great hopes that it might yield anything, she

:07:24.:07:27.

will be trying to put as much pressure as possible on the

:07:27.:07:30.

Russians to change their approach against Syria. There is not much

:07:30.:07:39.

hope that at this stage they are likely to do that. Thank you.

:07:39.:07:44.

The King of Jordan has called on the Syrian President to step down.

:07:44.:07:50.

In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Lyse Doucet, King Abdullah

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said he feared more violence. would believe that if I was in his

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shoes, I would step down. However, if I was in his position, if it was

:08:03.:08:08.

me, I would step down and make sure that whoever comes behind Make has

:08:08.:08:14.

the ability to change the status quo of what we are seeing. I don't

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think the system allows for that. If President Bashar al-Assad has

:08:18.:08:22.

the interests of his country, he would step down but he would also

:08:22.:08:28.

create a new phase of political life. Interesting comments. Lyse

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Doucet is with me now. He has not said anything like this before, has

:08:31.:08:37.

the? No, but we have not seen this action from the Arab League before.

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It comes after a very long time of getting promises from President

:08:41.:08:45.

Bashar al-Assad and those promises not been capped. What the king was

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very adamant about was it was not a question of one individual. He was

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very careful to say it is a system, it is not just one man. I think the

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worry in the region and beyond that if one leader steps down, what

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would come next? What instability would there be? The Arab League

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have said they will meet some members of the Syrian opposition

:09:10.:09:15.

later this week that is the Syrian opposition ready to take over? His

:09:15.:09:19.

comments will represent a turning point in how Arab leaders will deal

:09:19.:09:25.

with President Assad. Do you think he was aware of this? Is this a

:09:25.:09:29.

move to intensify the pressure as we are seeing? Eight was very

:09:29.:09:34.

interesting because he is a cautious King. It took him a long

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time to say, if I was in his place. He said it with some regret. Don't

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forget, these two leaders took power from their fathers at the

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same time, a little over a decade ago. He mentioned how President

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Assad had the soul of reform so he was frustrated that he had not been

:09:56.:10:06.

able to move forward. We can now speak to the director of the Middle

:10:06.:10:11.

East Centre at the London School of Economics. I'm not sure if you

:10:11.:10:15.

heard what Lyse Doucet was saying, what do you make of these latest

:10:15.:10:19.

comments from King Abdullah? If it tells you a great deal that even

:10:19.:10:25.

the Arab states have come to the conclusion that President Assad's

:10:25.:10:29.

position is extremely untenable. The Americans have made similar

:10:29.:10:34.

remarks a few days ago. One of the major officials on the Middle East

:10:34.:10:39.

said he has heard many Arab leaders saying President Assad's days are

:10:39.:10:43.

numbered. What you have now is what I call the convergence between

:10:43.:10:47.

international pressure from the international community,

:10:47.:10:51.

particularly from the United States and Western Europe, and this is a

:10:51.:10:54.

point want to make that the United States is waging a war against

:10:54.:11:01.

Syria by other means, it is an economic war, the media war and a

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psychological war. Now Turkey has joined. Now you have the Arab

:11:07.:11:11.

League. Remember, what the Arab League has said, this is the first

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step. On Wednesday, the Arab League will be meeting with the Syrian

:11:15.:11:21.

opposition. It has threatened to pull out ambassadors from Damascus,

:11:21.:11:25.

impose economic and political sanctions and even more importantly,

:11:25.:11:30.

it has threatened to basically recognise the Syrian opposition. If

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I was sitting in Damascus today, I would be extremely anxious. Syria's

:11:35.:11:39.

response in the last few days, first they dismiss the Arab League

:11:39.:11:44.

as worthless, they said it was an extension of the western American

:11:44.:11:47.

conspiracy. Then they called for a meeting for the heads of the Arab

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states and now you have Walid Al- Moualem, the Syrian Foreign

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Minister St this is a very dangerous step. He said I hope our

:11:56.:12:02.

Chinese and Russian friends would continue to lose the United Nations

:12:03.:12:11.

council. -- to oppose. He said the Arab League might go to the

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Security Council and ask for protection of Syrian civilians. It

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seems to made the Libyan scenario all over again. You have the Arab

:12:22.:12:26.

League taking the step by going to the United Nations Security Council.

:12:26.:12:31.

This tells you that the game is changing. The crisis in Syria is

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reaching a climax. The opposition and Syria does not appreciate the

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gravity of the crisis. It is interesting that you say the Libyan

:12:42.:12:46.

scenario all over again but I asked King Abdullah about the possibility

:12:46.:12:49.

of military intervention and he says no one is calling for that.

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Now I think there is some concern about whether that is desirable and

:12:54.:12:58.

whether that is possible. He said he believes that the Syrian

:12:58.:13:02.

leadership believes it is still in a comfortable place, in other words,

:13:03.:13:08.

that the end is not in sight. I say the Libyan scenario, I do not

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mean about NATO's military intervention in Syria. Both the

:13:13.:13:16.

United States and European Community have made it clear that

:13:16.:13:20.

there is no military option a long Libyan lines. Let me give you a

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scenario whereby if you have military escalation, if you have

:13:24.:13:28.

10,000 people killed and the next few weeks, you might have a very

:13:28.:13:33.

different response by Washington and Europe and also by regional and

:13:33.:13:39.

Arab states. You might have a no- fly zone, has a fare in Turkey, you

:13:39.:13:45.

might have an escalation of tensions in Syria -- you might have

:13:45.:13:51.

a safe haven in Turkey. Or the Arab League said was specifically it

:13:51.:13:54.

called on the Syrian army to disobey the orders of the Syrian

:13:54.:13:59.

government and not fire on civilians. What you might have, the

:13:59.:14:03.

question of legitimacy legitimising the opposition, you might have more

:14:03.:14:08.

and more security forces and Syrian army troops defecting to the

:14:08.:14:12.

opposition and you might have the strategic situation change among

:14:12.:14:16.

the ground in Syria as a result of Arab regional and international

:14:16.:14:20.

actions on the ground. It is very good to get your opinion and

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thoughts today. Thank you for joining me from the London School

:14:24.:14:29.

of Economics and Lyse Doucet, thank you and to reiterate you have

:14:29.:14:32.

interviewed the King of Jordan and he has called on the Syrian

:14:32.:14:35.

President to step down. He said if he was in his shoes he would step

:14:35.:14:42.

Let's take a look at some of the other stories making headlines

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around the world today. Anders Behring Breivik, the man

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who's confessed to killing 77 people in July, has been appearing

:14:47.:14:50.

in court in Oslo. Hundreds of journalists, as well as family and

:14:50.:14:53.

friends of those who were killed were waiting for him when he

:14:53.:14:56.

arrived at court this morning. It's Brievik's first open court

:14:56.:15:01.

appearance since he was taken into custody. He has said he wants to

:15:01.:15:04.

explain why he carried out the attacks on Norway's government

:15:04.:15:12.

offices in Oslo, and the nearby island of Utoeya.

:15:12.:15:15.

With me now via webcam from Norway is Norwegian journalist, Ketil

:15:15.:15:25.
:15:25.:15:25.

Stensru. Just described to me the mood, not only outside the court,

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it is understandable the family and friends of victims are there, but

:15:30.:15:36.

what about Norway? This was a country shattered by these events?

:15:36.:15:40.

Today marked a special and strange occasion when Anders Behring

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Breivik was able to meet people for the first time. When the same

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applies for the victims' relatives when they were able to meet Anders

:15:51.:15:54.

Behring Breivik in person and get some sense of what he felt like.

:15:54.:15:59.

What is expected to be heard? He said he is going to explain why he

:15:59.:16:04.

did what he did, what answers do people want? They want to get some

:16:04.:16:09.

justification. How could he resonate himself to carrying out

:16:09.:16:15.

these attacks and at what sort of ideological grounds can he justify

:16:16.:16:23.

killing his own people? And I think it is incomprehensible what has

:16:23.:16:28.

happened, so people have a great need to see him and see what kind

:16:28.:16:34.

of frame of mind he is in. As he is brought to trial, is there any

:16:34.:16:41.

expectation of what may be the outcome of this trial. Obviously,

:16:41.:16:47.

today was another hearing were the state applied for solitary

:16:47.:16:52.

confinement. The state wanted an extension of 12 weeks. I think they

:16:52.:16:58.

got that. For him, he again pleaded not guilty to the charges. And for

:16:58.:17:02.

him, it is another chance to be in the limelight for the first time

:17:03.:17:07.

and a chance for him to spread his ideology and explain himself.

:17:07.:17:12.

will keep a close eye on events. Thanks for speaking to me today.

:17:12.:17:15.

They're the unelected leaders, the technocrats, whose job it now is to

:17:15.:17:17.

guide their countries through economic crisis. Italy's Prime

:17:17.:17:20.

Minister designate, Mario Monti, and Greece's Prime Minister, Lucas

:17:20.:17:22.

Papademos, have been put in place to implement tough austerity

:17:22.:17:26.

measures needed to balance the countries' books. It's an unusual

:17:26.:17:36.
:17:36.:17:36.

position for both democracies to be in - as Humphrey Hawksley reports.

:17:36.:17:42.

We can speak to our correspondent in Rome. David, it is an

:17:42.:17:46.

interesting day for Mario Monti to begin this process. Is there much

:17:46.:17:51.

faith in him being successful? has the goodwill of a lot of

:17:51.:17:57.

Italians. They feel more com -- comfortable he is qualified to do

:17:57.:18:03.

with this crisis. He has to choose his cabinet very carefully among

:18:03.:18:07.

possible candidates, technocrats, in other words civil servants to

:18:07.:18:11.

have given good service to their country and could be Government

:18:11.:18:15.

ministers in the months to come. But I don't think we are going to

:18:15.:18:20.

get a cabinet line-up until tomorrow some time. At which point,

:18:20.:18:25.

he will be sworn in as Prime Minister, together with members of

:18:25.:18:28.

his Cabinet. More importantly, later in the week he will have to

:18:29.:18:38.

go before Parliament and get a confidence vote. This is I think it

:18:38.:18:42.

a foregone conclusion also. However, it is important to see that Mr

:18:42.:18:46.

Berlusconi, who has resigned during the weekend as Prime Minister, has

:18:46.:18:51.

been leading the country for 17 years on and off. He has made it

:18:51.:18:56.

clear he doesn't intend to retire from politics. He is going to

:18:56.:19:03.

monitor, he says, the performance of Mario Monti and has made a

:19:03.:19:09.

veiled threat, as he put it, to pull the plug on Mario Monti, if he

:19:09.:19:14.

considers his performance is not up to scratch. Mr Berlusconi still has

:19:14.:19:20.

a majority, a Parliamentary majority in one of the houses of

:19:20.:19:25.

Parliament. He lost his majority in the Chamber of Deputies, he could

:19:25.:19:30.

still muster a winning majority in the Senate, the Upper House.

:19:30.:19:38.

Basically, he makes no secret of the fact he wants to see the Mario

:19:38.:19:42.

Monti administration, if and when it is formed to have a very limited

:19:42.:19:48.

shelf-life. Thanks for your thoughts.

:19:48.:19:54.

Still to come: Digging up the dirt at all reinvestigate mining

:19:54.:20:03.

corruption in the poorest paradise of Goa.

:20:03.:20:10.

Now time to get the business news. Is it paradise for Italy yet? 7.48

:20:10.:20:18.

% and that it was the bonds yield? It has come down a little?

:20:18.:20:22.

focus is the market reaction. The whole reason the Italians pushed

:20:23.:20:26.

through the placement of Mario Monti, so everything would be in

:20:26.:20:30.

place when the markets open this morning, Monday morning there would

:20:30.:20:35.

be credibility. Some cautious optimism, they were higher, but if

:20:35.:20:38.

you blinked you missed it because the markets have returned to having

:20:38.:20:43.

a sour taste in their mouth. The market's love the fact there is a

:20:43.:20:47.

technocrat, a respectable, highly credible technocrat in charge of

:20:47.:20:51.

Italy but they want to see what Mario Monti is going to do about

:20:51.:21:00.

the two trillion worth of debt it elicits on. What we do about the

:21:00.:21:05.

poor business interests that has crippled Italy's growth. Let's have

:21:05.:21:09.

a listen to the boss of the German exporters Association, what he has

:21:09.:21:14.

to say about Italy and Mario Monti. We are fighting very hard for the

:21:14.:21:19.

Euro but not at any price. The problem is here in Italy and the

:21:19.:21:26.

Italians have to understand it is up to them to prevent us going into

:21:26.:21:31.

a recession and going into a worldwide depression. Italy

:21:31.:21:34.

borrowed 3 billion euros from the markets today. They got all they

:21:34.:21:41.

wanted but they have to say 6.3% interest, very expensive. Not cheap.

:21:41.:21:49.

Europe has been S -- asking China for help with limited success?

:21:49.:21:53.

this whole crisis rumbles on, the pressure has been on the bigger

:21:53.:21:57.

emerging economies. We know what the Europeans want from Beijing.

:21:57.:22:02.

The focus over the weekend was on India. The World economic Forum was

:22:02.:22:07.

taking place in Mumbai. Encouraging wells from India. I will quote the

:22:07.:22:11.

commerce minister in India, he says India will be part of the

:22:11.:22:14.

stabilisation process when it comes to what is happening in Europe.

:22:14.:22:19.

Strong words. It doesn't mean India is going to put its hand in its

:22:20.:22:24.

pocket and contribute to any form a bail-out. This isn't necessarily

:22:24.:22:29.

about the money, it is about making sure a country like India and

:22:29.:22:33.

emerging economy being looked at by the world is their bodies be parts

:22:33.:22:36.

of the world that are struggling and keeping the trade routes

:22:36.:22:40.

opening and keeping a sense of nurturing and fostering relations.

:22:40.:22:43.

Many Indian companies have relied on areas like the eurozone to grow

:22:43.:22:48.

and succeed over the past decade. So India is looking at this as, we

:22:49.:22:53.

are here to help and open for business. Open for business but no

:22:53.:22:58.

money at the moment. For more on Italy's new Prime

:22:58.:23:02.

Minister designate, head to our website. There is a profile of

:23:02.:23:12.
:23:12.:23:15.

Mario Monti and plenty more information and analysis.

:23:15.:23:19.

The headlines: The Syrian foreign minister has spoken defiantly

:23:19.:23:23.

following international condemnation of the country's

:23:23.:23:25.

suppression of anti-government protests.

:23:25.:23:28.

The new unelected leaders of Italy and Greece begin putting together

:23:28.:23:32.

of the Government and policies they hope will put their economies back

:23:32.:23:38.

on track. Another huge corruption scandal is

:23:38.:23:44.

looming in India, this time over its mining industry. Exports of

:23:44.:23:48.

iron ore have been stopped in the state of Karnataka amid allegations

:23:48.:23:52.

corrupt officials allow widespread, illegal mining. Government inquiry

:23:52.:23:58.

is looking into more serious violations by iron ore producers in

:23:58.:24:03.

Goa. This is the view of Goa tourists

:24:03.:24:09.

never see. A landscape scarred by a new kind of gold rush. For iron ore,

:24:09.:24:15.

and almost all of it is going to China. That, says critics has led

:24:15.:24:20.

to over mining, corruption and environmental disrupt --

:24:20.:24:25.

destruction and they are calling for the industry to be closed down.

:24:25.:24:30.

More and more going to China, a superpower. It is making its strong

:24:30.:24:35.

at the cost of the destruction of Goa. The constant flow of trucks

:24:36.:24:40.

carrying iron ore from the minds leave a constant cloud of dust.

:24:40.:24:46.

There is no escape from it for this spot primary school. The uniform is

:24:46.:24:50.

paid for by the mining industry. The dust causes them breathing

:24:51.:24:55.

problems and teachers say it is something the industry disputes.

:24:55.:25:01.

Next stop on the Road to China, the iron ore is loaded on to barges.

:25:01.:25:04.

But mining companies are worried that a Government inquiry into

:25:04.:25:10.

illegal mining and corruption will smother them all. Everyone in Goa

:25:10.:25:16.

has benefited from the iron ore bonanza they say, making it one of

:25:16.:25:20.

India's richer states. There have been violations the Chief Mining

:25:20.:25:26.

spokesman admits, but don't risk everything to read them out.

:25:26.:25:29.

have free health care, free education and we have negligible

:25:29.:25:35.

poverty. You cannot fight in legality, you have to address it.

:25:35.:25:40.

The hardest part is to say, how do we address it without destroying an

:25:40.:25:48.

economy. The next stage for Goa's iron ore? The slow boat to China.

:25:48.:25:52.

Globalisation in action and some in India are reaping the benefits, but

:25:52.:25:57.

with such huge needs for steel itself, they may be short-lived.

:25:57.:26:01.

All this iron ore heading to China have made some people rich. India

:26:01.:26:05.

is obsessed with the question of whether it was taken out of the

:26:05.:26:09.

ground illegally. Very few people asking whether it should be taken

:26:09.:26:14.

out of India at all. The simple answer is that India doesn't have

:26:14.:26:19.

the technology to use this kind of iron ore. But China does, allowing

:26:19.:26:29.

it to keep sailing ahead. We are coming to the end of the

:26:29.:26:33.

programme, but let me remind you of the main story?

:26:33.:26:38.

The BBC has interviewed King Abdullah of Jordan. He said if he

:26:38.:26:42.

were in the shoes of the Syrian President, he would consider

:26:42.:26:47.

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