20/10/2011 GMT with George Alagiah

Libyan government forces claim that they've driven out Gaddafi

loyalists from Sirte - their last major stronghold. There've been

wild celebrations on the frontline but interim authorities remain

cautious and say that Sirte is Welcome to GMT. I'm Naga Munchetty.

Also in the programme: The Greek parliament prepares to pass the

latest raft of austerity measures as protests continue on day two of

a general strike. 100 Years On from an epic and

tragic adventure, we look back on the expedition of Captain Scott to

the Antarctic. It's midday here in London, 7:00am in Washington and

1:00pm in Libya where forces of the country's national transitional

council are claiming victory in Sirte, Colonel Gaddafi's home town

and the scene of a last stand by his supporters. We have also heard

that Colonel Gadaffi, rumoured, has been captured in the town of Sirte.

There are also rumours that he has been injured, his legs have been

injured. And national transitional council officials have mentioned

two various news agencies that he had been captured. We are trying to

confirm this with correspondence on the ground. Let's go to our

correspondent in Tripoli where there are wild celebrations being

heard. That is right, the news has reached Tripoli, and you can hear

some of the noises around May, people tooting their car horns and

we have had quite a bit of celebratory gunfire even though

there has been a religious edict to ban that. People should not fire

guns in celebration because people have been wooed in and killed in

that kind of firing. -- wounded and killed. The news is filtering

through here. We are waiting to see evidence of this, but if it has

happened and Sirte has fallen and Colonel Gadaffi has been captured

today it will be an extraordinary victory for the new authorities,

even capturing Sirte would be a hugely significant milestone.

Colonel Gaddafi's home town, his birthplace, but village he turned

into his second capital. N T C officials think he was hiding

somewhere in the desert and believed he might still be in Libya.

He said many times he would fight to the end and not lead his country.

And if the announcements are true, and there is a bit of celebratory

gunfire there, then a hugely important day for the newly beer.

People are already celebrating. -- for the new Libya. You have spent a

lot of time in Libya and the celebrations do seem rather wild

and very prominent. We have heard rumours, 10 a penny throughout the

conflict, but have you ever seen celebrations that makes this seem

more like rumour and speculation and is close to being confirmed?

I'm afraid it was hard to hear you but you are asking about the scale

of the celebrations. There was a lot of gunfire last week and there

were rumours that Colonel Gaddafi's son, his national security adviser,

had been captured, but the capture of Muammar Gaddafi himself, the man

who ruled this country for 42 years and the overthrow of his

dictatorship which caused so much blood to flow in Libya would be

hugely significant. Whether they have not yet seen the evidence for

it is true, the Libyans here are celebrating already. Caroline,

thank you very much. I know you will be chasing the story up. We

have our World Affairs Correspondent here with us. Mark,

this is an interesting scene. As I mentioned, rumours are 10 a penny.

It is easy to get carried away, but it seems there is evidence with the

National Transitional Council saying this is the case.

correspondent is trying to confirm it as we speak, but we already have

to news agencies independently reporting quoting different

officials that Gaddafi has been captured and they are both saying

that he has been wounded. One saying badly wounded, another

saying he has been wounded in both legs. Both of the news agencies are

telling the same story and quoting the council officials. But there

have been false alarms in the past then we will have to wait a few

more minutes to get confirmation and possibly even pictures.

might cloud will clarify the picture, but one National

Transitional Council said the head of the armed forces has been killed

during the capture of the Libyan leader. He was never going to be an

easy capture, and he did foul to stand until the last. If this has

happened to a Mac -- in Sirte there has been prolonged fighting there

and it would explain if he was there and had been captured it

would explain why the fighting was so fierce and why these guys have

held out so long. On the other hand they may have held out so long

because they feared for their own lives as well. We are in the realms

of speculation. But with the speculation, let's assume that it

is fact. If he has been captured one of our report is is at the

hospital where it is understood Gaddafi has been taken and I bring

this news 2 as we get it, but the troops there are saying that he has

been taken to Misrata and they also claim to have possession of some of

his things, including his Golden Gun. The future of Gaddafi, they

hope, I suppose that he gets a fair trial. Is this likely from the

National Transitional Council with the world watching? There has been

talk of a trial, the let's concentrate on what is happening

now for the time being. If it is the case he was taken to hospital

then somewhere else, that would be logical because they would really

want to ensure his physical security, not only because they

want to capture him but perhaps because they do not want others to

attack him or be accused of killing him without a trial. And I'm sure

that is what is taking place. Reuters now reporting that the

Russian President Medvedev are saying that the Libyan people

should decide the fate of Gadaffi. There has been talk that they

should be trial in the Hague and indictments for a trial at the

International Criminal Court, but the wide and handsome -- National

Transitional Council have been going about having a nationalist

agenda and perhaps have a trial in their own country maybe they want

to do that. But that will just prolong the instability, and

certainly the dangers are there if you hold a trial in the country

because it is sometimes easier to have the trial at the Hague. All of

this is still speculation. Just to bring you more information we are

hearing from a National Transitional Council Television

that Colonel Gadaffi was captured with his son. Not surprising that

some family members would be with him. Yes, some of his children have

escaped to neighbouring countries. It was rumoured that one of his

sons was with him. It would make sense if there was a final redoubt

that they would be together and perhaps they have now been captured.

Does this now draw a line, if he has been captured, under Gaddafi's

presence in Libya, and how much of a difference will we see in the

country as it moves forward? It was crucial from their point of view

that they should capture him. Not only was he giving statements to

television and radio stations, some of them based in Syria which were

broadcast back in thereby making it clear that he did not control the

whole situation, there was that aspect and also the fact that

Colonel Gaddafi has many supporters in Libya. He ruled for 40 years and

distributed a lot of oil money with largesse and did generate a lot of

enthusiasm amongst some people. So that also has to be dealt with.

Let's recap what we have been hearing, but his muse is flooding

in. I will leave it with you, but we have heard that Colonel Gaddafi

has been captured. There are two independent news agencies, the

French news agency, and Reuters, both quoting officials of the

National Transitional Council as saying that Colonel Gaddafi has

been captured. We have not been able to confirm this from BBC

sources, but our correspondence on the job, obviously. Both of these

agencies are saying that Colonel Gaddafi has been injured, one that

he has been injured badly in both legs. Mark, thank you very much.

You will be keeping across this as the news develops. Libyan

television is broadcasting that Colonel Gadaffi has been captured.

We can bring you this with translation as it is being

In the name of God, and we thank God Almighty, guard who has made

the rebels victorious, the Libyan people victorious, and today

without any doubt he is in the hands of the rebels. Colonel

Gaddafi is in the hands of the rebels. This is an exclusive report

we are bringing you. These brave rebels that have achieved victory,

they have made the liberation of Tripoli, and the 20th is the

liberation of Sirte. We have captured Gaddafi. Libya is joyous.

Libya is celebrating. Libya is giving a lesson to all of those who

want to learn. I salute you, rebels. I salute the revolutionaries who

have captured this criminal, this criminal who has killed the mothers

of the martyrs. This is your day. You have sacrificed your youth,

your son's for the liberty of Libya. All of our mothers will be joyful

and happy. I cannot find the necessary words to express what I

feel. This is not a news item, this is a happening we are in --

reporting. For 40 years the country has been bleeding and has been

depressed and suffering, and nobody was trying to heal our wombs except

the rebels who took to the streets on 17th February, and today they

have achieved the victory, I repeat, victory. They have captured this

criminal who had destroyed this country. And despite all of the

distraction, he actually pillaged the country. We saw on 17th

February how heat destroyed and pillage, and today, ladies and

gentlemen, we will try to convey to you the happiness of our people.

That was a recording as the statement was given on Libyan

television. It was an emotional broadcast, not surprisingly. That

takes us a step further. We are now seen for ourselves the officials

going publicly on Libyan TV saying they have captured Colonel Gaddafi

and that Sirte has been, in their words, liberated, describing

Colonel Gaddafi as a criminal who has pillaged the country. But many

people in Libya will not quite believe this until they see a

picture of Colonel Gadaffi himself for some clear evidence. They are

already celebrating on the streets of Tripoli. We could see that from

a colleague in Tripoli and there will horns going off, as you would

expect. These are live pictures, and at the celebrations still going

on all around. Absolutely. Many Libyans will still be waiting to

see that picture of Colonel Gaddafi and if the television crustacean is

correct, and it seems inconceivable they would go on air saying

anything -- the national television station. He would be very bad for

the credibility of the National to transitional council, and now they

are waiting for pictures. We can speak in Tripoli to the Libyan

national transitional council spokesman. Obviously, the news is

coming through in the last hour or so. Can you tell me what you have

heard and what she can confirm? what you can confirm? We are not

sure it has been liberated, and it is a great day for the people

waiting for this liberation and people are celebrating not only the

liberation of Sirte, but also about some reports that the big fish has

been captured in Sirte and moved it to Misrata. We are waiting for

confirmation from the National Transitional Council in Benghazi.

Before that, we cannot confirm that Muammar Gaddafi or any other of the

big fish have been arrested and moved to Misrata. Some local and

radio news is saying that, but we need confirmation, and that will

come from the National Transitional Council in Benghazi. Let's break

the story down a little bit. Do you know of the events that led to this

speculated capture? Where it could have happened and who actually

The audio is very bad, could you repeat the question? Can you give

detail of who captured Colonel Gaddafi and in what nature he was

taken? The news that Gaddafi was captured when he was trying to flee

from Sirte and motorcade and move immediately to Misrata. This is

that I cannot confirm, but it is very big speculation everywhere in

Tripoli about that. We talk to some people in Misrata and in Sirte and

we have almost one story identical. But as we know, the real news is

transferring through the proper channels to the NTC in Benghazi,

who are meeting now, and they will come up with a statement of

clarification to what happened exactly. The celebration in Tripoli

started and we like to caution people to be careful, not to use

their guns properly and to celebrate in a civilised way. Are

asking everybody to wait for the official statement from Mustafa

Abdul Jalil, either to confirm or deny the news. This is the proper

way to do. I agree that you are being cautious about the news flow,

but I understand that Libyan television is now reporting that

Colonel Gaddafi has been killed and his body is being take ton Misrata.

Have you heard anything of that? heard such a news, and I said there

are various scenarios about that. I am repeating again, we would like

to learn from our past lessons. We did some mistakes, jumped to

conclusions early in the past. We don't like to do it this time.

understand it is noisy where you are, I appreciate you persevering

with us. Can you give any information on the nature of the

injuries Colonel Gaddafi may have sustained? I don't have this

information. There is some speculation also about the killing

of the head of the military in Libya. I cannot confirm that. There

is many news coming from the Sirte generals, the sudden collapse of

the town centre as was a little bit surprising. It was a furious

resistance in the last few days. Suddenly our people were able to

assert themselves and control in a few hours We'd like to see this

force of the revelation. We have to wait for the confirmation. Have you

spoken to any international leaders? We have heard from various

international leaders commenting on the speculation, have you informed

any of the NATO involved countries? It was some reports in the morning

that NATO are hitting some targets in Sirte and around Sirte and that

strikes might result in something, we cannot confirm it. I think you

have the spokesman of the NATO and he can confirm if they were helping

any way. Can you tell me if Colonel Gaddafi is still alive, there is

speculation, I repeat, that he has been killed, if he is alive, what

would be your plan ou next? -- next? The next is the official

statement from the NTC of his capture. I'm sure some question

will be answered and that occasion. One of them that we are agree on,

in the past, and we will confirm it again, that we are giving not

Colonel Gaddafi, but everybody will get a fair trial, that Gaddafi

never gave to our people. We are going to give him a fair trial.

We'd like very much to trial Gaddafi and his associates inside

the Libya, by the Libyan justice system. We're going to do that.

Would he be tried in Libya? Would that be a safe option? Repeat the

question, please? Would he be tried in Libya? Would you be concerned

about security? I think we're going to give him fair trial. It will be

under the observation of the organisation. We are not going to

try him in closed doors. We will try him in public. We are going to

guarantee him all the necessity, all the guarantees, the law

guarantees that are given to any, to anybody. We'd like very much to

try him in Libya and the Libyan people will see -- say the final

word of his fate. Who are you waiting for? Who is giving you the

information to confirm that Colonel Gaddafi has been captured? I got it

from several sources. As I said, many times, that I cannot confirm

any of these reports, but it's strong speculation from different

various agencies, NTC people are talking to each other now. They are

talking to the revolutionary forces. They are talking to the military

and civil leadership in Misrata to verify the reports and to make sure

that everything will be under control. In a few hours, we're

going to have an official statement that will explain everything and

confirm or deny speculation. You do expect to give a statement in a

matter of hours? Yes. I'm expecting that in a few hours, it will be a

statement. Can you also tell me, when it comes to the position of

Sirte, have you had confirmation that Gaddafi loyalists have been

completely driven out of the town? No, I cannot confirm any of this.

OK. Speaking on behalf of the National Transitional Council,

thank you very much for bringing us up to date. We appreciate your

persevering through all the noise where you are. Thank you very much

for giving us the latest. Thank you.

Well obviously, the NTC is still being very, very cautious about

confirming or denying that Colonel Gaddafi has been captured or, in

fact, with the latest rumours, that he has actually died and his body

being transported to Misrata. Mark, you were listening in there,

understandable caution. Absolutely. It's very interesting that the

official spokesman of the NTC would be so cautious and careful. They've

had their fingers burnt before. This is the big one, of course.

This is the one on which their credibility has been in doubt over

the last few months, because they haven't been able to capture

Colonel Gaddafi and, of course, once they have got him and indeed,

some reports saying that he's been killed, though we can't confirm

either of those for the time being, this is the big one. They want

their credibility to be in tact. They're being very careful. That's

the official spokesman for the NTC. We brought up the question of a

trial, if he were alive. He was also quite resolute, it seemed,

that it would happen in Libya and security -- Libya and security

would not be a problem. Yes, other countries, for example, Liberia,

the former leader there, they decide today would be too dangerous

to have the trial in the local area. They spent him for trial in The

Hague. There, the security could be guaranteed. The politics of the

country wouldn't have been churned up, as it's bound to be as

revelations take place in a trial, if one takes place. Yes, the

official spokesman for the NTC was very clear. He said if he's alive,

he'll be tried in Libya. He'll be given all the rights that should be

accorded to such a trial. He'll get a fair trial. But it will be in

Libya. He was absolutely clear about that. That's interesting.

Also we spoke about how actually, let me bring this news, there's

been reported on Reuters, Libya's Colonel Gaddafi dies of wounds

suffered in capture near Sirte. This is a senior National

Transitional Council military official that has spoken to Reuters,

to be clear. We were just speaking to a spokesman who couldn't confirm

he had either been captured or wound. We did hear reports that he

had been wounded in both legs. We did also hear reports that one of

his sons and one of his leaders had been captured, one of his leaders

had been killed. If this is true, Mark, if we can believe these

reports, that Gaddafi has died of these wound, it's drawn a line

under the conflict so far and marks a new beginning for the NTC and the

future of Libya. If Gaddafi has died, it certainly marks the

beginning of a new phase. That's for certain. Because it means that

the NTC now have effective control of the whole country. Thank you

very much. Let me just recap what has happened in the last hour. We

have had news that Colonel Gaddafi, the former leader of Libya, has

been captured. There are latest rumours he has died of wounds

sustained in that capture near Sirte. He was reportedly had wounds

in his legs. The report now is that he has died on the way to Misrata.

Of course, we will bring you the very latest, stay with us on BBC

Welcome to BBC News. The now continuing coverage of the

situation in Libya. What you are seeing now is a live shock of the

city of Sirte. NTC commanders saying that the city has fallen

after a two manufacture month siege. Troops are manning roadblocks

outside the city. They say there has been an attempt at mass break

out by pro-Gaddafi forces. Even more significantly, in the past

half hour or so, many reports from Libya that we cannot confirm for

you, that Colonel Gaddafi has been captured in Sirte or near Sirte. We

can tell you that Libyan state television is reporting this, that

a local commander of the anti- Gaddafi forces says the Colonel was

shot in both legs, but just to tell you, other reports saying he is

being treated in hospital, before being taken to the western city of

Misrata. As Naga was mentioning, Reuters also reporting one NTC

commander saying that Colonel Gaddafi may possibly have died. We

cannot confirm these reports for you. Differing reports coming out

from Libya, but state television definitely reporting that Colonel

Gaddafi has been captured. This is at noupbsment: -- announcement:

TRANSLATION: We thank God almighty. We thank God who has made these

rebels victorious, made the Libyan people victorious. Today, without

any introduction, Gaddafi is in the hands of the rebels. The Gaddafi

personally is in the hand of the rebels. This is an exclusive report

we're bringing you. These brave rebels that have achieved victory.

These rebels have made today the 20th, 20th, that's was, the

liberation of Tripoli and, 20th was the liberation of Tripoli today is

the liberation of Sirte as well. We have captured Gaddafi. Libya is

joyous. Libya is celebrating. Libya is giving a lesson to all those who

want to learn. I salute you rebels. I salute you the revolutionaries,

whom you have captured this criminal, this criminal who have

killed the mothers of the martyrs. Mothers of martyrs, this is your

day. You have sacrificed your youth, your sons for the liberty of Libya.

Our mothers, all our mothers will be joyful, will be happy. I cannot

find the necessary words to express what I feel. This is not a news

item. This is happiness that we are reporting. This is what we feel for

40 years, the country has been bleeding, it's been oppressed. It's

been suffering and nobody was trying to heal our wounds, except