05/09/2011 GMT with George Alagiah


05/09/2011

Zeinab Badawi presents international news and intelligent analysis going live to the heart of the day's top global story. Plus up-to-the-minute global business news.


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The battle for one of Colonel Gaddafi's last strongholds

:00:09.:00:13.

continues, as negotiations between the two opposing sides seem to have

:00:13.:00:20.

broken down. Forces of the transitional council

:00:20.:00:23.

say they are in good spirits as they prepare to storm the desert

:00:23.:00:33.
:00:33.:00:44.

Hello, welcome. Also coming up, the famine is

:00:44.:00:48.

spreading in Somalia. The United Nations warns that three-quarters

:00:48.:00:53.

of a million people could start to death in the next few months.

:00:53.:00:58.

Are you trying to accuse me of being...?

:00:58.:01:02.

And, the Bollywood blockbuster they tried to ban. How a film about

:01:03.:01:08.

India's caste system continues to court controversy.

:01:08.:01:13.

It is lunchtime in London, early morning in Washington and 1:30pm in

:01:13.:01:18.

Libya, where leaders of the NTC, the National Transitional Council,

:01:18.:01:22.

or speaking in confident tones about the battle for Bani Walid.

:01:22.:01:28.

The head of the NTC has told the BBC that two of Colonel Gaddafi's

:01:28.:01:32.

sons have been blocking the surrender of the town. He says

:01:32.:01:37.

negotiations are still continuing, but he gave a deadline of one week

:01:37.:01:42.

for those negotiations to end. Bani Walid is 200 kilometres south-east

:01:42.:01:46.

of Tripoli, one of the last pounds to be held by forces loyal to

:01:46.:01:51.

Colonel Gaddafi. Its capture is a major test of the NTC's ability to

:01:51.:02:01.

defeat the remaining supporters of Gearing up for the final push on

:02:01.:02:06.

Bani Walid, these rebel fighters gathered their strength and

:02:06.:02:09.

thoughts on the outskirts of one of the last strong chords of pro

:02:10.:02:16.

Colonel Gaddafi forces. -- strongholds. Mood among the rebels

:02:16.:02:22.

is buoyant. The time for talking to, both sides seem to agree, is over

:02:22.:02:27.

for now. Negotiations have collapsed. The rebel leaders

:02:27.:02:32.

believe they have the forces to take the town quickly. We are a

:02:32.:02:40.

mixed people, coming from Benghazi, Tripoli, everywhere, from Libya.

:02:40.:02:44.

According to the rebels, the negotiations never really got going.

:02:44.:02:50.

If and when they go in, what will be resistance be like? As events

:02:50.:02:54.

unfold, foreign governments are having to answer awkward questions.

:02:54.:02:59.

China has acknowledged that Chinese arms manufacturers hold talks as

:02:59.:03:01.

recently as July with representatives of Colonel

:03:01.:03:07.

Gaddafi's government. There was a United Nations arms ban in base --

:03:07.:03:14.

in place. TRANSLATION: The Colonel Gaddafi government said personnel

:03:14.:03:18.

to China without the knowledge of the Chinese government. The Chinese

:03:18.:03:22.

companies did not sign contracts, nor did they export military items

:03:22.:03:27.

to Libya. Some of the Colonel Gaddafi government's dot secrets of

:03:27.:03:31.

emerging, as well as the cosiness of its relationships with the West

:03:31.:03:36.

before the rebellion. Documents suggest that Britain's end of --

:03:36.:03:40.

MI6 co-operated with the CIA in delivering a suspected militants

:03:40.:03:44.

into the hands of the Colonel Gaddafi forces, including the man

:03:44.:03:49.

who is now the rebel leader in charge of security in Tripoli. As

:03:49.:03:53.

the rebel fighters made their final preparations, among the continuing

:03:53.:03:57.

uncertainties, the whereabouts of Colonel Gaddafi and his sons, still

:03:57.:04:07.
:04:07.:04:13.

Let's get the latest now. How far can you assess how the balance of

:04:13.:04:19.

power might be shifting when it comes to Bani Walid? It really

:04:19.:04:27.

looks as though the anti- Colonel Gaddafi forces, the rebels, are

:04:27.:04:32.

bending over backwards to really avoid a full-on assault on Bani

:04:32.:04:36.

Walid. They have waited several days already, they could have gone

:04:36.:04:42.

in a few days ago, they have been negotiating with the tribal elders,

:04:42.:04:46.

and with the Colonel Gaddafi loyalists, trying to get the

:04:46.:04:49.

Colonel Gaddafi hardliners to surrender, to lay down their

:04:49.:04:52.

weapons. They have demanded assurances about how they would be

:04:52.:04:57.

treated if they surrendered. The negotiations appear to have broken

:04:57.:05:02.

down last night, though some sort of negotiations are still continue

:05:02.:05:06.

wind. Part of the problem has been that two of Colonel Gaddafi's sons

:05:06.:05:12.

have been in the town, and they were pretty hard line, and they

:05:12.:05:17.

have left. They were putting up resistance, encouraging hardliners

:05:17.:05:22.

to continue the Resistance, and supplying them with weapons. We are

:05:22.:05:30.

being held quite a long way from the town, 70 kilometres or so, at

:05:30.:05:37.

the rebel checkpoint. Heading that way, Bani Walid. It is where some

:05:37.:05:42.

of the rebel fighters set off a couple of hours ago, with some

:05:42.:05:48.

heavy weaponry, they were shooting into the air euphorically, to

:05:48.:05:51.

reinforce the troops that they have already got massed around the town.

:05:51.:05:56.

It is pretty much surrounded, and there is a hope that anti- Colonel

:05:56.:06:01.

Gaddafi people in Bani Walid will rise up and take out or expel the

:06:02.:06:09.

last of the Colonel Gaddafi loyalists. Do we know how well

:06:09.:06:15.

armed the pro Colonel Gaddafi forces are still in Bani Walid?

:06:15.:06:20.

do not think there are that many of them or that they are that well

:06:20.:06:26.

armed, though the Saif Al-Islam Gaddafi did armed them with about

:06:26.:06:31.

80 high-velocity rifles before he left. The worry is that they are

:06:31.:06:35.

spread out amongst the civilian population, and there could be real

:06:35.:06:45.
:06:45.:06:47.

bloodshed if and when the rebels to What about Colonel Gaddafi? His

:06:47.:06:50.

whereabouts are still not known, though he is believed to be in

:06:50.:06:57.

Libya. Eric Maddocks was credited with masterminding the capture of

:06:57.:07:00.

Saddam Hussein, and he has described his experiences in Iraq

:07:00.:07:10.

in a book. What it would you give anybody who is keen to find Colonel

:07:10.:07:19.

Gaddafi? -- what advice? Do you think he is still in Libya? The key

:07:19.:07:26.

to finding it Saddam Hussein was identify and his social networks,

:07:26.:07:32.

through building the link diagrams, and through his networks, he was

:07:32.:07:36.

running an insurgency in the area, and he had to survive, so he needed

:07:36.:07:43.

food, shelter, he needed to be harboured. From that, he used a two

:07:43.:07:47.

specific individuals. One of the keys to capturing him was that we

:07:47.:07:52.

have to find his social networks through these two hoppers, his

:07:52.:08:00.

bodyguards, and not necessarily through his past regime. Saddam

:08:00.:08:04.

Hussein was found in Dr Crick, which is where his tried originally

:08:04.:08:08.

hailed from, in a remote farmhouse. Looking at the parallels with

:08:08.:08:18.
:08:18.:08:19.

Colonel Gaddafi, what would you say? As the Department of Defense

:08:19.:08:24.

representative, I cannot speculate on the location of Colonel Gaddafi.

:08:24.:08:32.

For Saddam Hussein, he hit amongst the people that needed in the most.

:08:32.:08:36.

-- he hid. There is speculation he travel too severe, he was in

:08:37.:08:42.

Baghdad, he could hide amongst millions of people, but he was in a

:08:42.:08:46.

small town, of 20,000 people, that needed him the most. But the

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difference is that there were foreign bids on the ground in Iraq,

:08:51.:08:55.

highly experienced, specially trained forces, trying to track

:08:55.:09:00.

down Saddam Hussein, and that is not the case in Libya. Is there the

:09:00.:09:05.

experience to find Colonel Gaddafi? The key to success for finding

:09:05.:09:13.

Saddam Hussein is that you do have experienced Special forces that can

:09:13.:09:17.

go in, because you are doing a manhunt. If you're not careful, you

:09:17.:09:23.

will create a lot of corrupt or damage. As you hunt for one man,

:09:23.:09:29.

you will create a massive insurgency. The team that I was

:09:29.:09:32.

within Iraq, we spent four months tracking down Saddam Hussein, we

:09:32.:09:37.

did not fire a single bullet, and that leaves a minimal foot print,

:09:37.:09:42.

which does not stir up the population. Often, you can get

:09:42.:09:46.

information from people who are not even aware they are giving you

:09:46.:09:53.

information. Is that right? That is exactly right, one of the keys to

:09:53.:10:01.

finding Saddam Hussein, he was the most wanted man in the world, the

:10:01.:10:04.

most powerful military in the world was looking for him, you would

:10:04.:10:08.

assume he would go into hiding and he would be roughing it, but he

:10:08.:10:16.

needed to eat one type of fish every day. Once we identified that

:10:16.:10:21.

sort of profile, we then found a fish pond that had been created

:10:21.:10:26.

since the war that had begun, we started tracking the fishermen, and

:10:26.:10:31.

from doing that, it led us on to eventually capturing Saddam Hussein.

:10:31.:10:36.

It is the small brittle profiles of their high-value target that can

:10:36.:10:46.
:10:46.:10:57.

Egypt's former president is back in court in Cairo. Four police

:10:57.:11:00.

officers of the first witnesses due to be questioned in the trial.

:11:00.:11:03.

Hosni Mubarak has been charged with ordering the killing of hundreds of

:11:03.:11:08.

demonstrators during protests against the government. He could

:11:08.:11:18.
:11:18.:11:20.

face the death penalty if he is Police struggled to contain a sea

:11:20.:11:23.

of protest outside the courtroom as the trial of the deposed President

:11:23.:11:28.

was about to resume. The authorities were trying to prevent

:11:28.:11:32.

a repetition of the scuffles that erupted when Hosni Mubarak's trial

:11:32.:11:36.

opened a month ago. It seemed like a losing battle. Just about

:11:36.:11:43.

everyone here, it appeared, had some grievance. This woman claimed

:11:43.:11:47.

that there were people from the secret services, cronies and slaves

:11:47.:11:53.

of America. Passions were a strong on the other side of the political

:11:53.:11:59.

divide. Hosni Mubarak is a criminal, this man claims, repeating it to

:11:59.:12:07.

emphasise his seat. -- his view. This man was angry because he said

:12:07.:12:10.

he was not being allowed to go inside the court to watch the

:12:10.:12:13.

proceedings, even though he had authority from the Interior

:12:13.:12:18.

Ministry. The ailing 83-year-old was brought to justice -- to court

:12:18.:12:23.

in an ambulance, on a stretcher. Last month, the Egyptians could see

:12:23.:12:27.

live television coverage of him in a cage in the court. The judge has

:12:27.:12:32.

now banned such coverage, because he felt it added to the charged

:12:32.:12:36.

atmosphere. Hosni Mubarak denies ordering the killing of the

:12:36.:12:40.

protesters. Today the court was to hear from police officers who were

:12:40.:12:47.

working in the operations room at the time. Outside, this woman says

:12:47.:12:50.

there was no way the former President could have killed the

:12:50.:12:55.

martyrs, as was being alleged. Otherwise, she said, he would have

:12:55.:12:58.

killed all of the Egyptian people. What was the point of only killing

:12:58.:13:05.

800? So soon after the removal of a leader who held sway over his

:13:05.:13:10.

country for so long, the scenes at the court in Cairo are a reminder

:13:10.:13:20.
:13:20.:13:21.

of the emotions unleashed by Hosni Still to come, two students from

:13:22.:13:26.

two different backgrounds, and a question dividing India. This

:13:26.:13:33.

positive discrimination still have a place in modern society?

:13:33.:13:40.

-- does positive discrimination? I have been joined by Our Business

:13:40.:13:45.

Correspondent. What news do you bring? American banks in trouble?

:13:45.:13:49.

Banks around the world, they are very nervous at the moment. They

:13:49.:13:54.

are preparing to defend themselves. Late on Friday night, American

:13:54.:13:58.

authorities filed a lawsuit against 17 banks around the world, claiming

:13:58.:14:01.

that the banks must lead lenders about the quality of the mortgages

:14:01.:14:08.

they were selling during the housing bubble in 2008, and earlier.

:14:08.:14:12.

The American authorities are representing the two big mortgage

:14:12.:14:17.

giants who went bust. They had to get bailed out to the tune of $150

:14:17.:14:25.

billion. We have got the Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, RBS,

:14:25.:14:31.

Barclays, but the question, who was responsible for approving and then

:14:31.:14:38.

purchasing these products? These companies were responsible

:14:38.:14:43.

for purchasing that these ought lemons, these so-called mortgage

:14:43.:14:46.

products, but they then increased the market value of them and pushed

:14:46.:14:51.

them to the upside and make them more appealing to themselves. When

:14:51.:14:57.

they went bust, they were left holding a lot of these overvalued

:14:57.:15:07.
:15:07.:15:08.

Ure, people are getting nervous there about that second bail out?

:15:08.:15:17.

Absolutely. $109 billion. That was agreed this year but Finland is

:15:17.:15:20.

causing hiccups. They are demanding collateral for Greece. They are

:15:21.:15:24.

going we will give you some money but you have to put up something

:15:25.:15:29.

against it. The bigger problem you have Austria, Luxembourg, the

:15:29.:15:34.

Netherlands, Slovenia, all asking for the same. They say we want some

:15:34.:15:39.

collateral as well, and all of this could be fatal for Greece.

:15:39.:15:44.

Greece has to post collateral I think it makes it more likely that

:15:44.:15:49.

Greece will default, so it is almost as if it triggers a self-

:15:49.:15:52.

fulfilling prophesy, because the money it would have available to

:15:52.:15:59.

pay down, to pay down debt will be in this special purpose vehicle.

:15:59.:16:03.

know the Finnish Finance Minister is meeting the euro President to

:16:03.:16:06.

discuss this and Finance Ministers from the eurozone meeting tomorrow,

:16:06.:16:12.

just to try and get through this next saga. A quick look at the

:16:12.:16:15.

markets. On the markets. Take a look. They are down there. Very

:16:15.:16:19.

worried about the lack of US jobs. No jobs created in August in the US

:16:19.:16:24.

and problems in China. That is it for now. Thank you. All you need to

:16:24.:16:27.

know on the main stories on the business today. Do remember, if you

:16:27.:16:37.
:16:37.:16:46.

want to get in touch with us, best You are watching GMT from BBC World

:16:46.:16:52.

news. The headlines. The battle for one of Colonel Gaddafi's last

:16:52.:16:56.

strongholds may have already started, as talks between the two

:16:56.:17:03.

opposing sides appear to have broken down. And violent scuffles

:17:03.:17:11.

outside court in Cairo as Hosni Mubarak arrives for his trial. Now,

:17:11.:17:15.

more on our top story, Libya. It has Americaned that representatives

:17:15.:17:20.

of Colonel Gaddafi visited the Chinese capital Beijing in July,

:17:20.:17:25.

trying to buy arms. This information is coming from the

:17:25.:17:29.

Chinese foreign ministry who were quick to add no contracts were

:17:29.:17:35.

signed and no weapons were shipped to them. Let us get more from our

:17:35.:17:38.

Beijing correspondent. This is going to be a fairly serious

:17:38.:17:44.

development, what are the Chinese saying? Well, it is. It is a very

:17:44.:17:47.

serious development. What we now know from the Chinese Government

:17:47.:17:54.

themselves, is that right in the sort of dying weeks of the Gaddafi

:17:54.:17:58.

regime, China was hosting representatives here from the

:17:58.:18:00.

Gaddafi Government, although the Chinese Government says it has no

:18:01.:18:06.

knowledge of them, but those, it has admit m -- admitted that

:18:06.:18:09.

Gaddafi representatives came here seeking weapons and they had

:18:09.:18:14.

meetings with three Chinese state controlled arms manufacturers. This

:18:14.:18:18.

admission has been forced out of China, because the end of last week,

:18:18.:18:24.

documents were unearthed in Tripoli, which indicated that these, these

:18:24.:18:29.

talks had taken place, they were unearthed by a newspaper from

:18:29.:18:36.

Canada which said that $200 million worth of arms deals were discussed,

:18:36.:18:40.

including rocket launchers. Missile, possibly ground-to-air missiles and

:18:40.:18:45.

the three Chinese companies offered to sell their entire stockpiles.

:18:45.:18:49.

What is significant about this is that a UN arms embargo was in place

:18:49.:18:53.

at the time which China signed up to. China is now saying those

:18:53.:18:57.

meetings did take place, those representatives were here but the

:18:57.:19:00.

Chinese Government says it knew nothing about them. No deals were

:19:00.:19:05.

signed. No arms were exported and it has added today, that it views

:19:05.:19:09.

this seriously and will follow this up. That may not be enough for the

:19:09.:19:13.

new officials in the new regime, incoming regime in Libya. Thank you

:19:13.:19:20.

very much for that. Now, the United Nations has said that famine has

:19:20.:19:24.

spread into one more region of Somalia. A total of three-quarters

:19:25.:19:28.

of a million people are at risk of death in the next four months if

:19:28.:19:33.

there is no add watt response. The UN says the numbers dying in

:19:33.:19:37.

Somalia's region has passed the threshold to be defined as a famine,

:19:37.:19:43.

and it warns the situation will only get worse in the coming months.

:19:43.:19:47.

Neighbouring countries Kenya, Ethiopia and Djibouti have been

:19:47.:19:50.

affected by the severe lack of rain. Some 12 million people across the

:19:50.:19:55.

region are said to badly need food aid. Our east Africa correspondent

:19:55.:20:00.

is in Nairobi where the UN have been speaking, and Will, in what

:20:00.:20:07.

way does the UN say this situation is getting worse? Well, it is

:20:07.:20:11.

really painting a picture of generally southern Somalia, slowly

:20:11.:20:16.

moving towards famine. We now have six regions in Somalia, where the

:20:16.:20:21.

conditions the UN says are that of famine, and this region is the

:20:21.:20:24.

latest. We are talking about a threshold that the UN puts in place,

:20:24.:20:31.

this is a certain number of people dying, per 10,000. The malnutrition

:20:31.:20:35.

rates going up and also just a severe lack of food available. And

:20:35.:20:40.

this area, the region, is one of the bread baskets of Somalia, but

:20:40.:20:44.

the recent harvest was so poor, officials say it was the worst

:20:44.:20:49.

harvest in the last 17 years, so the situation, the UN saying, is

:20:49.:20:52.

basically going to get worse. It is not a surprise, you might remember

:20:52.:20:57.

back in June, July, they said there is a rye I -- crisis coming and it

:20:57.:21:01.

will take several months until we get to the peak. But the UN is

:21:01.:21:08.

saying well into next year, the humanitarian response will have to

:21:08.:21:12.

be continuing, obviously the key question is how the get the food

:21:12.:21:15.

into those areas where Al-Shabab is in control. Some aid agencys are

:21:15.:21:20.

getting in there, but the big one, the UN World Food Programme is not,

:21:20.:21:23.

and not enough people are getting the food in southern Somalia.

:21:23.:21:28.

going to ask you more about that political instability, making it

:21:28.:21:32.

harder for humanitarian assistance, I mean, does the UN have to go

:21:32.:21:36.

through complicated negotiations to get it through? Is some getting

:21:36.:21:41.

through? Well, the UN calls it discussions rather than

:21:41.:21:45.

negotiations. They say it is happening at a low level. We know

:21:45.:21:50.

that the World Food Programme is still officially banned by Al-

:21:50.:21:56.

Shabab, but there are smaller organises, that have, for year,

:21:56.:21:59.

been accessing areas controlled by Al-Shabab. They have built up

:21:59.:22:02.

relationships. There seems to be a degree of trust, that movement of

:22:02.:22:07.

the food is continuing, but as I say, it is not on the scale that is

:22:07.:22:10.

needed, and if the World Food Programme were able to deliver food,

:22:10.:22:14.

some people think that, you know, the heart of the crisis could be

:22:14.:22:18.

torn out in a matter of days, if they were given that access,

:22:18.:22:23.

because they have such a large operation, and the capability of

:22:23.:22:27.

putting a lot of food in place. At the same time some organisations

:22:27.:22:31.

are looking longer terms because the rains are due in a few weeks

:22:31.:22:35.

time, and while that will bring some good news for the farmers,

:22:35.:22:42.

there is also the fear of disease increasing with that rain. Thank

:22:42.:22:47.

you for giving us an update on what the UN is saying about famine in

:22:47.:22:51.

Somalia. Now the other major developments making the headline.

:22:51.:22:54.

Now, many Governments round the world have long used positive

:22:54.:22:58.

discrimination as a way of helping disadvantaged groups in their

:22:58.:23:02.

society. And it can take many forms. It often has a degree of

:23:02.:23:06.

controversy about it. In India, a recently released fip has caused

:23:06.:23:14.

something of a stir because it deals with the issue of caste

:23:14.:23:24.
:23:24.:23:27.

reservations in the education With an all star cast headed by a

:23:27.:23:31.

screen veteran it has been making headlines since its release because

:23:31.:23:37.

of its subject matter. The film looks at India's century old caste

:23:37.:23:42.

system. A social hierarchy which places people into different class

:23:42.:23:46.

categories based on family back ground. It deals with the sensitive

:23:46.:23:51.

issue of affirmtive action for lower castes. Are you trying to

:23:51.:23:56.

accuse me of being a casteist? states tried to ban the film but

:23:56.:24:06.

its director believes it is an issue that needs to be discussed.

:24:06.:24:11.

49.5% of all higher education seats and Government jobs, are reserved

:24:11.:24:17.

for certain class and caste of society. Which has created a lot of

:24:17.:24:20.

turmoil, and you know new kind of pain, I mean the pain of the

:24:20.:24:27.

society which has been sub Jew Kate gate -- subjugated and oppressed.

:24:27.:24:30.

Affirmative action has been taken but that has created so much pain

:24:30.:24:37.

in the rest of society. This system of quotas is known as reservation

:24:37.:24:41.

in Hindi. It was row deuced to ensure everyone in India has access

:24:41.:24:47.

to the same opportunities. These two are studying the same course

:24:47.:24:51.

but even though she scored higher she struggled to get a place

:24:51.:24:57.

because she is from a higher caste: I scored 81 in my exam. I think is

:24:57.:25:01.

a pretty good score to get in college. I couldn't get in because

:25:01.:25:04.

of the reservation. I mean, the people, I mean the students who

:25:05.:25:08.

scored lower than me, the grade marks were really low, and they got

:25:09.:25:14.

into and walked in the college, just because they were minorities.

:25:14.:25:18.

He has benefit fromed from the quota, he says he has had it harder

:25:18.:25:23.

because of his family's history and that is why he believes

:25:23.:25:28.

reservations are needed. There is still not equal opportunities to

:25:28.:25:32.

come up and explore the world, so there is a need of us being

:25:32.:25:36.

reservation for us so we can come up and explore the opportunities.

:25:37.:25:41.

This is one of the many statues of the doctor which can be found

:25:41.:25:45.

across the country. He was the architect of India's constitution,

:25:45.:25:49.

and helped introduce quotas or reservations, that was more than 60

:25:49.:25:56.

years ago, so how relevant are they to today's India? Leading

:25:56.:25:59.

commentator says the reservation system is likely to remain in India

:25:59.:26:04.

for many years to come Reservations changed India dramatically, because

:26:04.:26:12.

in a short space of time, what it has done is giving the lore -- low

:26:12.:26:18.

e caste the opportunities. It is still relevant, because we still an

:26:18.:26:22.

unequal society. Although caste isn't observed as much as it was

:26:22.:26:27.

hundreds of years ago it is still part of Indian society. Supporters

:26:27.:26:32.

say it provide a level playing field. Others say it is creating

:26:32.:26:37.

inequalities of its own. And that report brings us to the end of this

:26:37.:26:43.

International news and intelligent analysis going live to the heart of the day's top global story with Zeinab Badawi.

Featuring exclusive reports from BBC World News correspondents based around the world, plus up-to-the-minute global business news.


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