Emma Bonino, Vice-President, Italian Senate HARDtalk

International. Giggs recently took an injunction to stop an affair

becoming public. It is time for a hard top. Yes Silvio Berlusconi

losing his political grip? His candidates took a hammering in the

municipal election in the closing. My guest today, Emma Bonino, is a

long time radical opponent of Berlusconi and currently vice-

president of the Italian Senate. Are conservative Italians,

especially the men, ready to embrace fundamental change? Emma

Bonino, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

Do you think the centre-left in Italy is getting a bit over-excited

about the political trouble that Berlusconi is in? He said what is

happening is tantamount to a divorce between Berlusconi and his

people. What is clear to me is that many

people voted for Berlusconi and they are not following his advice

any more. This is clear. That this means that that is a total divorce,

I think that is too early to say. People voted and went to the

referendum were not voting for the left. They are simply for the

moment saying, "Look, it is enough. We are looking for things but you

are not delivering. There is paralysis in Italy, so do

something." I think they may not necessarily vote for the opposition

next time, it is only a warning. He is pretty much the most resilient

and indestructible political leader in Europe. In Europe nowadays,

maybe yes. I thought you were comparing other leaders in Italy.

No, I am looking around Europe in the last decade and looking at all

the slings and arrows that have been thrown his way. All the things

that he has had to deal with - he has come through. He is a fighter,

we should recognise it. We were not right in

underestimating his capacity of resilience and being a fighter. He

is an owner of the TVs. Also the public TV system. He can address

people and say what he wants. It is a contradiction in some ways. That

also means he is not able to run a country. He is a fighter but he

does not have the patience and the stubbornness to run a country, to

go for reform. He is very good at campaigning, he is not good at

running the policy. You say Berlusconi is not good at running

the country. Many Italians would say that would

go for the leftist opposition as well.

I think that Berlusconi is much more the system than a code. It is

systemic. That is my analysis and the analysis of the Radical Party.

We have said over and over again that the crisis in Italy goes back

by 10 or 20 or 30 years. The politics after the major scandal,

it means the democracy in the institutions where nothing will bow

down. You should know. You were part of

the system. You are a long time leader. The Radical Party does not

get many more votes. You have been part of the system that has

fundamentally failed the Italian people.

Our ambition, and when I joined the Cabinet, I was not very welcome. It

was in the hope to change the institution and to put my country

back to a sort of new respect in the rule of law. And we failed. We

failed and we got to suicide. I think that he knows we were pushed

to an election not only by the opposition of that time. The

problem today is that even if people are fed up with the status

quo, and maybe that means Mr Berlusconi, they see few

alternatives in mainstream politics. They are right. One of the issues

is that it does not exist in my country. There is not a single

piece of legislation which is implemented, particularly by people

in power. The electoral process, the justice system, really, I think

this is where we have to start. People are really hopinh that we

start again in constructing a sort of democratic country. That is a

point about the process. Where are the next generation of effective

Italian leaders? You have been around a long time. I am not young.

You are not the youngest politician and there are not many young

politicians in Italy that you can look to. I think the system does

not allow newcomers very easily. Our system is not inclusive of

newcomers. This is an oligarch system which is very closed.

Everybody is calling for change and so on. From Monday to Friday, when

they get serious, they are not very open.

You talk about the gender issue. Only 46% of women are in the

workforce. Women are in the Italian welfare. They take care of its

children, old people, sick people. There is no social structure.

were trying to change this three or four decades ago. You were

attacking the church on divorce. You won some victories. It looked

like back then that it was changing. Here we are in 2011 and nothing has

changed much at all. Italian women are as brilliant as their

colleagues in Spain and France and others but the first priority for

women is to be a mother and then to be a wife and then possibly also to

be a lover and then possibly to have some spare time to go out to

work. Again, the Italian welfare means that it is done by the women.

Here is one of the most amazing statistics I have read. 95% of

Italian men say they have never ever operated a washing machine.

How do we change that? First of all, women should change how they raise

their sons. Sometimes, we are the worst enemies of ourselves. If we

really allow women to access the labour market, I think we can

change. The question is, no-one has an interest to change this except

the women. 65% of the population does. We are still trying now.

Believe me, it is very difficult. In the '80s, the feminist movement

was stopped by the traditional party and became quiet. Let us get

back to the referendum. You have been an active opponent of nuclear

power in Italy. You must be delighted that the referendum blew

away any prospect of nuclear power in Italy for a long time to come.

The question is, so what? What are you going to do now? The plan was

to have 25% of power coming from nuclear. No, it was 25% of

electricity. That is about 40% of the total use of energy. We have

been doing OK without nuclear for now. That is not the major problem.

I know how you managed to deliver. You became the biggest importer of

energy. 85% of your energy is important. You are so reliant on

gas. Gas is not only used for electricity, it is used for many

things. I understand that. But the overall situation in Italy is not

sustainable right now. Thanks to your nuclear decision, you do not

have a long-term, sustainable energy policy. It is ten years

ahead. The fact is, we don't have a policy, we have nothing. We don't

have an energy policy. I do not think, by going nuclear, $30

billion the state does not have, the cost and effects, it is not a

sound economy. Many disagree. damaging to the Italian economy.

There is a fundamental structural rigidity to your labour market, to

democracy, to regulation, which means it is one of the worst places

in the world to do business. No-one has the courage. In the short-term,

there are major political costs. If you reformed the labour markets and

you opened up, maybe in the short- term, you have some political costs

and that is one of the reasons it has not been done by the left or

right. It did not deliver. He resumed power in 2001 for five

years and no reforms, no liberalisation to be seen. Maybe it

is too easy to blame the politicians. Maybe it is something

about the Italian public. You are very conservative. I do not think

so. People and public opinion, they are reacting to the message they

receive. Maybe they do not like change very much. In this time of

economic crisis, the threats and fears are there so they are calling

for protection. That is the easiest way to go. No-one is willing or

able to risk to lose the election to say the simple truths to people.

The system is not only not democratic, but on top of that, it

is not sustainable. If only politicians would present this

truth, they would vote for it. But you have tried to do this and they

have not voted for you. You did very badly. Let us get to the heart

of what I see is the problem for you in Italy. You work in a

democratic system, but democracy delivers things in Italy that you

do not like and if you think now about the immigration issue and the

Italians' view of foreigners, you are swimming against the tide of

public opinion. I challenge your analysis. I don't think my country

is a democratic system any more and it has not been for a long time.

Democracy means the separation of power. It means the checks and

balances. It means the rule of law. Also debate as well. This

Are you suggesting to me that when opinion polls, consistently, show

between 60% and 80% of Italians being fearful of the impact of

immigration and believe there are too many immigrants in their

country, are you telling me that does not reflect the feeling of the

country? It does, at this stage. There is no possibility of a real

debate and telling people the other side of the immigration. The

government said Italy needs at least 250,000 more emigrants over

the next few years. With respect, I think that message has gone out to

the people. They have a falling population and have to find new,

young workers. Are you being a bit patronising suggesting maybe if

Italians were given more information, they would suddenly...

Maybe there would be the real debate about what democracy means.

The latest figures from Milan suggest that 208,000 people are

immigrants. It is a fact of reality. If we start accepting the reality,

then we can have a policy of integration. If the message is,

everyone out, we will keep everyone out, the major debate of having

300,000 people, etc... The debate about whether there should be a

mosque in Milan. Why not? They were campaigning. You are building an

argument that suggests to me that there is something specific about

Italy. Look around you, you have written up a report about

discrimination across Europe, it was stopped from the Netherlands to

Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Hungary - the far right are on the rise.

responsibility is to counter arguments, populist slogans. You

are totally right. It cannot just be to do with the Italian media and

the lack of debate. It is a debate across Europe and Europeans are

saying they haves had enough. think they are right to be worried

about the impact but nevertheless, can we gather the courage to say

that maybe you don't like the situation but the question is that

we are ageing, becoming less and less and getting older. Diversity

is our destiny. At the moment, you cannot win elections with that

message. There is a tougher line on immigration. But if you do not

start with other of points of view, you can't win. You know that when

Italy recently gave a whole host of temporary residents permits, you

know that those people tried to get into France because they are

Tunisian and the French blocked them. It has a lot to do with the

way that Europe coordinates its policies. The temporary protection

was to facilitate them to go to france. You see my point. What we

have now is a Europe that is fragmenting and looking after its

own interests on a nation by nation basis. You must find this very

troubling. It is a really big few years' time. And just for fear

of 25,000 Tunisians? In a previous crisis we received 75,000 with no

major crisis. It is not just about 25,000. Imagine how many more will

come, it has been said. So we are going to bomb them in the

Mediterranean or what? In the north Mediterranean, we are in need of

people. There is a policy there, not simply bombing Schengen because

that is the result. People don't realise we don't have other options.

We will revitalise it with a sort of vision. You say that but in

Italy, all sorts of agreements. Aren't you really confident that

Aren't you really confident that when we discuss the euro, for

example, it is capable of strengthening institutions? I tell

my people, imagine if we are not in the Eurozone. The Germans might

want to imagine. But not Italians. That is the point. You, as a long-

time supporter of the federalist principle, are in trouble right now.

Europe is not going in your direction. The question of Europe

has never been federalist, the United States of Europe. Our

weakness is much more political than simply financial. If you take

California, they are not under political threat. That is arguable.

We do not have time for that. Italy, at the beginning of the European

Union, was a very important player. These days, it does not feel that

way. Do you see any possibility of regaining a leadership role? Italy

is a symptom of a crisis in a liberal democracy and democracy in

general. A crisis of liberal democracy. If you are talking

symptoms, is this an illness that will get worse or better? If we do

not do nothing, it will get worse. I am hopeful that with

determination and vision and calling on people, people in my

country react. The real point is that in my country, what is