Sharan Burrow, Head of International Trade Union HARDtalk

was apparently fake about child labour.

Time now for HARDtalk. Karl Marx may have told workers

they had nothing to lose but their chains but in 2011 the message from

the front line of the international union movement is Prius. Global

recession has quickened what appears to be a long-term decline

in union movement and now unions have a battle on their hands with

governments desperate to cut back public spending. My guest today is

a Sharan Burrow, the General Secretary of the International

Trade Union Confederation. Well the 20th -- I unions in the business of

managing decline or will the challenges of the 21st century make

the movement more relevant than ever?

Sharon mac, welcome to HARDtalk. Why part unions in decline? We're

not in decline everywhere. We have the core business of recruiting

workers, that is a central pursue its -- purpose, to represent

workers. I took this job because we have a global struggle on our hands.

The economy is not working for working people. It has trebled in

size over past decades but we saw inequity before the global

financial crisis. Labour mobility became Labour enslavement in places

like UHT -- UAE. We know that a move to put decent work in place in

democracies - and that is what is spreading across North Africa -- -

union membership all over the developed world is going down all

over the world. That is not correct. In Australia

union membership has gone up after we experienced a decline. Come to

any country with me and see that unions are at the heart of whatever

is going on in the world of work, standing up for democracy and

dignity and the rights of people to a decent life. The global economy

is not working for anyone. It may surprise you but the richest

billion or 2 billion people in the world and the poorest, the gap has

increased. That is not acceptable. These things have to be undone.

Banker bashing is one done but how you make yourself small relevant?

Working people are feeling angry about stimulus payments. There was

at no time and understanding that that would largely bailout banks

and not save jobs. We did save some jobs but in France and other places,

those governments know that unrest will continue to grow if we do not

seek job growth and youth unemployment tackled. But G20 did

not mention jobs. That is not true. In Pittsburgh and London we talked

about jobs. I am talking about Paris. From -- Nicolas Sarkozy has

said that there are three priorities. Jobs. Workers' rights.

Also the mechanism that drive the economy, like a minimum wage.

economies have followed your prescription and have gone for a

large stimulus package, like the US. It has not seen the large jobs

creation of that Barack Obama and others wish for. It looks like a

jobless economy. We'd talked to the economists in the US and may have

differing views. They would say that too much went to bailing out

banks and not enough to jobs. But jobs were saved. If you do not

invest in jobs you'll not see sustainable growth. We say to the

G20 leaders that we want to see jobs protection at the heart of

economic policy. If you do not have that you're not sustain any type of

fiscal recovery. You are seeing many young people entering the

workforce which cannot accommodate them. Looking at how you do that,

coming back to the policy divide, because you take a government by

the UK that has gone against the stimulus idea and has prioritised

reducing the deficit, they say it is the private sector you must look

to to provide productive jobs. Unemployment is going down.

Employment is going up. economic outlook is very sluggish

and will not accommodate those jobs. We think the British Government has

got it absolutely wrong and the misery it is starting to cause for

the poorest people - who rely on services - is the extraordinary.

But unemployment is going down. When we see youth unemployment

figures going down... Youth unemployment is now below what it

was at the time of the election. is at 20s -- 20%. What will you say

to parents? But it is going down. Look at the OECD figures and the

IMF figures. The Director General of the OECD said that economics

must change. People living in Bulgaria on $2 pensions. You tell

me this is working for working people and I would take you to

Greece. Two nurses to have worked all of their lives and are seeing

their pensions cut. They know who is getting off scot-free. It is

bankers. Growth globally is not nearly enough. In many of the

developed economies the majority of your members are in the public

sector and the governments in question up - the Government's

fighting to keep their deficits under control - would say they are

facing a vested interest. Private sector workers have seen their pay

come down or frozen and a scene there pension benefits come down.

It is public sector employees you're sitting on privileges that

they can no longer enjoy. If we had a lot of time we could unpacked

that orthodox. Their private sector workers who are doing very well

with our assistance. There is a low-paid workforce who are not and

the message for that his social protection. What you mean by that?

75% of people have no social protection, no child protection. No

welfare, note guarantee of work. This is an imbalance that is about

demand. Unless the G20 manages a coherent plan for social protection

and job growth then those global imbalances remain and that

threatens every economy. If you want to talk about the private

sector, they are lacking in responsibility. Take a major

campaign. Telstra. Eight could company in Germany but they are

denying workers in the US the right to organise. These are corporate

citizens in Europe who say they are good companies. We do not accept

that. But they have to compete against companies where others are

undercutting them. If you do not have fundamental rights at work,

where people are treated with dignity and can be sure of a

minimum wage and collective bargaining rights... If you have

such gross inequality everywhere because you do not have union

rights to collective bargaining - like in the US with the telecom

company is denying there workers that right... But we have to look

at the reality. We started talking about decline. Collective

bargaining rights are declining. That is the struggle we will take

gone. Corporate companies, one by one if necessary. You have to be

inspired by the people in the Arab world with their revolutions. A

finest - finance minister says, if an economy is not working for jobs

and social protection, the economy is not working. Unless governments

changed the model of Economics, unless they Leeson -- listen to the

leadership of the IMF that say that unemployment is a large driver of

vulnerability, we are rolling for a rough ride. No-one would disagree

with those overall objectives, it is how to get there. A quote -

unions have a tendency to sacrifice future generations to current

generations since only the current generation is voting. Governments

can no longer borrow their way into But is less than the Bank has got

from the bail-outs over the last few years. A couple of percentage

points of GDP would provide the social protection. The

prescriptions are absolutely there. The green economy is something

everyone is signed up to. But we are talking about sovereign

national debt and that his Government's saying they do not

have the money to pay public sector union members the kind of pay and

pensions they are talking about. In Greece there is a law against

sacking government workers purely on the basis of poor performance

for some employers want to be able to hire and fire at will. Today you

are making work, tomorrow you are not because we don't like the cover

of your hair. But you can manage performance. No question about that.

I manage a business myself. I know had to do that. Sovereign debt. In

Greece, look at the OECD figures. If everyone in Greece paid their

taxes that country would have 30 billion more in their coffers. They

would not have sovereign debt. Is it better to make that reform

through growth in jobs where you can sustain the future or to cut

the economy so that future generations will never have a

chance to get a job. These problems can't be solved by

collecting taxes. The OECD has said the debt level is expected to rise

to 120 % of GDP by 2014. That is unsustainable. I am agreeing with

you that I have been part of a movement that helped to restructure

the Australian economy. And look at itself. It has some vulnerabilities,

but it is one of the most sustainable economies in the globe.

What is a better recipe for what our children? Why is it that

governments will not stand up to the bond markets. It is not

governments making these decisions, it is the bond agencies engaging in

speculative behaviour will wither interest rate swaps and the like.

It looks like derivatives at the heart of the financial crisis.

is very convenient to make the financial sector the villain. I am

not going to sit here and defend them. On but it is not acceptable

to say that that is the whole of the problem. The fact is, taxpayers

are bedding out the banks and it looks as if they will have to bail

out some of the privileged public sector jobs. You mention Australia

and sustainable economic performance. But some would say

that is on the back of natural resources going to China. That is

driving Australian economic performance. Are you satisfied with

the Union performance in China? First of all let me go back to your

point. I don't except for a minute that public sector workers are

privileged workers. Would you really want a society we do not

have teachers or nurses. Where they can live with dignity and get

decent pensions. I think you and I are actually agreeing. While the

bank is do not carry full responsibility, their speculative

activity brought us to the brink. They were 40% of investment in the

real economy. The real economy 60%. that's not what governments were

elected to do. They stand up to the bond markets and saying: We will

deal with our financial issues leveraged of growth that comes from

employment that gives our children and grandchildren opportunities.

There are issues right around Europe at the moment with regard to

rights. The financial sector attacked the rights of union

workers. On China does not want to be a low wage economy. They could

potentially have better collective bargaining rights within a decade

than the US. That is the wealth distribution mechanism we take that

money from the to be in richest, we distributed and build a demand base.

Who is going to buy the products is workers do not have a sustainable

income. The private sector cannot sustain an economy based on a lack

of income for workers. And yet, you say that. I make challenging the

way that I do. But at the end of the day public opinion will beaky

to his argument wins between you and those private sector economies.

A recent poll in the US. A majority felt that unions reduced the number

of good jobs in a country and harm to America's competitiveness in the

global economy. I have a different view to that. On the contrary I

would say: If you are squeaking people if they want a secured jobs

and income, if they believe they should have a fair share of

productivity. Look different countries. In three decades the

share of wages has decreased by more than 10% despite the fact that

the economy doubled in dollar terms. Why he's membership on the decline?

Come with me again to a number of countries. You said wages were not

holding up in the UK. But surely it's off the back of that that is

too -- historically the union movement has flourished. That is

our job. To bargain for wages, to see people have equal opportunity.

On the experience is very. Our core businesses recruiting a new

generation of workers. I could show you are decisions for life project

organising young women in some of the poorest countries. 100,000

people have organised around issues for them. Income, freedom from

discrimination. On public sector strikes this year. Is there a

danger that by pushing too hard you create a government backlash. The

UK government has warned that if the public sector unions pushed too

hard and create major disruption they will introduce anti- strike

legislation. If governments have to resort to taking away fundamental

rights of workers who paid are saying to work longer and have less

dignity in retirement when they have given their whole lives to

looking after us. Even if their benefits, pay and job security is

far outstripping the private sector. The public in general may view

public sector workers as in some corners an elite workforce. It --

governments want to pit worker against worker. We have to raise

jobs to the level of decent work everywhere. President Sarkozy sat

down with us last weekend talked about rights and said to the G20

leaders: You must have care he rents. We have to build an economy

based on fundamental dignity and rights. That's what our

grandchildren one to hear. That's what we want to be part of. Let's

work through a strategy but let's not blame the people whose money

bailed out the banks and let the bank has simply run free and let

governments say, it's not an our full. The public are the people you

use public transport. If they get hit with strikes Arvo strikes

always right? Should the public be backing public sector workers in

every case? -- are those strikes always right? If they will not sit

at the table then workers will have no choice. It is a last resort for

any wicket, particularly those looking after people in hospitals

or schools. If you do not have a government that treats workers with

dignity then what is their choice but to stand up for themselves and

for future generations of otherwise you will never get people to be

teachers or nurses. We do not want to see strikes but we want to see

governments with real growth plans for real jobs for the new paradigm