Hisham Matar, Author HARDtalk

time for HARDtalk. The Gaddafi era is over. After four decades of

dictatorship Libyans have an opportunity to dismantle his

republic of fear and build something better. But will they? My

guest today is Hisham Matar, a Libyan novelist, whose own father

remains one of the disappeared of the Gaddafi regime. How quickly can

Libyans heal their wounds? Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you.

You wrote this just the other day, "We got rid of Gaddafi and I never

thought I could write those words." Describe your feelings when you saw

the crowds going into Tripoli and then the compound? I felt very

moved and fortunate. Fortunate that I was alive to see it. I am young

enough to assume that I would see Libya without Gadaffi's rule. But I

doubted how his regime would end. The end that I feared would be the

end with him passing away and giving power to one of his children.

That would have been terrible for Libya.

Was your father in your mind as you watched? Your father had been an

activist trying to change Libya for so long. Was he in your mind when

this finally happened? My father is so much part of my being. He is

never out of my mind. But so many men and women have sacrificed their

liberty and their lives for this day. I also think of all the other

people that have made this possible. There was a time when after my

father's disappearance when he was abducted from his home in Cairo by

Egyptian secret services, in 1990, and then handed over to the Libyans,

he was taken to Tripoli and tortured and imprisoned without

trial and then he eventually disappeared in the prison system.

There were dark moments when I wondered about the appropriateness

of his sacrifice. Was the historical moment

appropriate? Had he been misguided? There were moments when it is a

good idea to sacrifice. There are other moments when there are not

enough people around willing to do the same thing. Sacrifice may be

wasted. The cause might be right but the moment might be wrong.

was a jealous, mournful son thinking this. But the moment that

Benghazi was taken and you could see those young people opposite the

courthouse chanting, almost all of them were born after Gaddafi. Some

of them were born after my father was made to disappear. They were

recalling men like my father. They held pictures of men like my father.

Suddenly the link was made that these people did not waste their

time. They were making the early steps towards this revolution.

We both have referred to him as one of the disappeared. This is not a

singular story. There are thousands of Libyans who disappeared over the

40 years of dictatorship. But the fact is now that there is a real

likelihood that they can be some sort of accounting. Dictatorships

always leave a trail. There is always some way of finding

individuals who know what happened to people.

Is that what you want to do now, find out? Yes. It touches on a

bigger point about what a revolution needs. It is not just

about removing a dictatorship. A revolution is when all things are

taken into account. Both possibilities exist continuously.

That is part of the tormenting nature of his appearance. The

quality of grief and longing, the disappearance affects people left

behind. The inconclusiveness of it. And the self-a rejuvenation of that

feeling he already has there. It is always being brought up. Regardless

of religious views there is a sense of finality, they do not exist in

the world we know. But when somebody disappears the possibility

is always there. You are asking yourself questions like, why have I

not dreamt of him recently? Or when you do have a dream, what is that

dream? You burden all these things with such significance.

Over the years you did occasionally see contact from him. A smuggled

letter. Once there was a smuggled audio cassette in which your father

spoke about his experiences in the 1990s. He spoke about torture in

prison. But you have always found it hard to listen to that. I have

listened to that tape but it is hard, it is obvious.

But the closeness of your relationship, hearing his voice did

not hel? I have heard the tape five times over this period. I heard it

when it first arrived. I heard it a couple of years later and so on.

The difficulty with the tape is that you really get a sense of

where he is. You can hear the echo of his voice against the concrete

walls. You can hear the emptiness. You can hear the loneliness. He is

incredibly alive in the tape. He is completely there. His humour, his

anecdotes, his poetry. All of that is there. On some level it is a

wonderful human document that shows you how resilient human spirit can

be. But I was not able to see all that in the early hearings of the

tape. Recently I listened to the tape, one year ago, and I found a

very different tape. I was able to not concentrate on how hurt I was

an angry I was. I could really listen to my father. I was grateful

for that because I heard a very different tape. I heard a hopeful

tape. Bizarrely, because what he was really saying is that what he

did and what happened to him should not be seen as a tragedy because it

was something to celebrate, because he had the will and ability to

speak his mind and to face up to a regime that is ruthless. Many

people could not do that. I knew what he meant. You see a lot of

broken people in Libya. The regime has managed to humiliate and co-opt

so many otherwise good people. I want to talk about the broken

people and how they can be mended. But before we get there, just to

finish up on your father's story and your search for a conclusion,

we sit here in a London TV studio. Will you go to Libya to try to find

out the truth? Yes, as a family we have been searching for my father.

Obviously now the rebels have reached Tripoli. The prisons are

near there. -- reached. So, yes. Here is a difficult question. If by

some miracle your father is alive, and do you think it would be easy

to re-establish the relationship with him? You will be different and

he will be very different. That is another sort of effect of

disappearance. That is why it is so strange. Exactly what you mentioned,

you change and they changed. Part of it will be effortless. I know

that the moment I see my father's face all sorts of emotional and

psychological possibilities will open up that are not available to

me now. But at the same time that fear of meeting somebody who has

been changed so deeply by an incredibly difficult experience is

present. Once I had a dream where I found my father sitting. I woke up

in the dream, left the bedroom, went to the living room and found

my father sitting there on his own. As I sat next to him he felt

slightly nervous and uneasy. As if he sat next to someone he did not

know. Then I placed my hand on his shoulder and he stood up and walked

away. The dream was about anxiety, about whether he would know me or

not. But one encouraging thing recently is that my father's

brother who was arrested the same week my father was abducted and put

in prison, and he came out with another uncle and two cousins. And

a fortnight before the favourite uprising they were released with

other prisoners when the Gaddafi dictation were sensing something

might happen. So my uncle came out and I have been speaking on the

phone to him. It is amazing to see there is only so much you can do to

a man. There is only so much you can take away. Everything I

remember about my uncle is all I want to pick up something you

alluded to about the broken people. You said that in some ways you

regard them as more damaged than the victims and you want the

revolution to be about drawing them into Libya's future. The other day

a Libyan protester said "I want the right to do to Gaddafi what Gaddafi

has done to my loved ones". Isn't that going to be a powerful feeling

in Libya right now? Absolutely. I have sensed from the people I have

spoken to that there is a deep and sincere appetite to avoid getting

ourselves into revenge and reprisals. I am not only keen to

avoid that because it is destructive, but also from a very

deep place I believe it is inappropriate. It is inappropriate

to the memory of the people killed and tortured and inappropriate to

human nature. It would be arrogant and inaccurate for me to say to you

that there is something intrinsic about my being which has made me

who I am. And that therefore there is something intrinsic about

torture which has made him who he is. The moment we exercise our

humanity to the fullest is the moment where we are tempted to

imagine what it would be like to be someone completely different to us.

I understand what you are saying and your appeal to avoid vengeance,

retribution. And yet there is a massive, deep desire in Libya for

accountability and justice. And that is different of course, but

then there is a question of how far you go to ensure that the people

who were around Gaddafi, part of that system, no longer have the

right to positions of power or influence in the country. The

Justice Minister who served Gaddafi for four years in the recent past

is now the putative leader of a free Libya. I just wonder how you

feel about that. I think there is a big difference between saying that

we want to find a way to allow people who have gone so far in

violence and crime a way that somehow, a way where they are

treated humanely and justly. There is a difference between that and

allowing them to go scot-free. Abdul Jalil is now the figurehead

leader of the rebels. Should there be trials? In Iraq there was a

process of deratification which took away systems and structures

which allowed the country to function. Should there be something

similar? I do not want to speak off the cuff. These are very important

questions that need to be considered. The need to address

past crimes and atrocities needs to be far more severe than make up

issues such as you mentioned. In needs to be a national conversation

that is sincere and authentic. It needs to be driven by the people to

make sure these atrocities do not occur again. To allow us to produce

results which are far more lasting. Suppose somebody was a torturer

under Gaddafi's regime. He was not doing anything against the law.

This was lawful at the time. How are you going to address that in a

court of law? This presents challenges to the soul and the

human heart that are very profound. We need to be creative. Not just to

the mind and the court system. have spoken optimistically about

Libya's future but I want to run through two issues which may be a

challenge. This was not an entirely self propelled revolution. Had it

not been for NATO's intervention the rebel forces would not have

toppled the regime. That is not to say it is not self-propelled. It

did have support but it is home- grown. This is what one respected

Arab writer and thinker said. The danger is that Libya will end up

with a weak, undemocratic, NATO- backed government which will be

besieged by militants who are fundamentally anti-Western. There

are so many dangers but I also see so many possibilities. I do not

think it is a dark time at the moment. Anyone looking at what has

happened in Libya, a nation that faced indecent violence, violence

that was cunning and had no limits, is almost a spiritual event. It is

awe-inspiring. It does represent severe challenges to Libya - not

only those mentioned of Libyans needing foreign help for their

revolution and what that would mean in the future, but also because

civil society in Libya is so rudimentary. Our institutions are

so weak because of Gaddafi's actions. Then there will be

setbacks and disappointments but how else are we supposed to learn?

If we are always either under the control of a dictator with a

bizarre relationship with the world, the world has, um... I forgot the

word. I am hearing your words about inspiration and your belief in what

can be positive about Libya's your own situation. Your two novels

are about loss. Loss of a father, loss of a country. Exile. Are you

ready to go back and will this be a watershed moment for you

personally? I do not know. I will personally? I do not know. I will

In a way I am surpised you don't know. You have been thinking of

your country almost every day of your life in exile and now there is

the real possibility of going home and being part of the building

process. My thoughts are less to do with that and more to do with how I

feel as a writer and my concern with how moments like these in

history can obliterate the writer. By nature we are outsiders, even in

countries which are settled. Our work relies on that. We watch and

we comment. We do not feel obliged to do anything except to be loyal

to our work. Therefore moments like these - and I have been speaking to

friends, artists from Egypt and Tunisia about this - that we feel

so swept away about this. We are so excited and grateful to be alive,

but also we are very nervous. Axious about our existential

existence. It sounds almost selfish, and that is a pejorative word, but

I wonder if you are saying you're not sure you feel entirely Libyan

any more. No. That is not what I am saying. When somebody suggests I go

back to Libya and play a role in politics, when I say no to that, to

me it is out of loyalty to my work. If that is selfish, then I am

selfish. I will always be exercising my right as a citizen

writing journalism, doing interviews, saying what I think

about what is happening. And I want to guard my independence. But I

will also always be an artist, I hope. There are many examples in

history of artists being completely destroyed by political life.

want you back as an artist and a commentator on Libya. But now we

are out of time. Thank you for There will be a few showers around

over the next few days and that includes the weekend as well. There

will be some sunshine as well. That's the story for today. Showers

will be quite heavy and possibly thundery so quite a mixture. Wet

weather moving through the spine of England. Heavy and thundery

downpours as we start the day. On either side, dry. Some sunshine.

Across Wales, showers developing on the west coast. For the rush-hour

in Northern Ireland, showers developing. Slow moving affairs. If

you get lucky you will stay dry. It should be a reasonable start to the

day with some sunshine in Scotland. This is the area of wet weather in

north-east England, the Midlands. Heavy rain. It will sweep through

the London area but will not last all day. Behind that, things will

brighten up. Showers across Devon, Cornwall. They will become more

widespread through the day. Rain in the east. Showers in the west. The

best of the sunshine in central Scotland to the spine of England.

Nobody is immune from a shower through the day. It will be coolish.

Into the evening, wet weather developing over France. That will

head north overnight, threatening parts of England and East Anglia by

the end of the night. Further west, dry. Another cool start to the day.

The wet weather across the east will move to inland regions.

Further west, a chance of sunshine but also showers and cool into the