David Hare HARDtalk

HARDtalk. -- now it is time. Sir David Hare has spent his life

making things up in search of the truth. With his prolific output of

plays and screenplays, he has become one of the most influential

chroniclers of modern Britain, a left-leaning playwright whose anger

has been variously directed at deceitful politicians, cynical

media barons and grasping bankers. He accepted a knighthood from Tony

Blair, then excoriated him for his role in the Iraq war. Britain is

now back in conservative hands. Does Sir David Hare still have fire

Will come to HARDtalk. Thank you. want to take you back to your early

days in the theatre. At that time, you said you raged for change

against the pretext of ridiculous institutions. Are you still raging?

I was brought up at the end of the empire. Everybody was still

behaving like we were an incredibly important country. Institutions had

a grandiosity that seemed ridiculous. What I would be a

raging against now would be completely different things, most

of the fact that the country is completely at the mercy of the

economics of foreign powers. Justice point about anger, do you

still write fuelled by anger? -- just this point. I am not fuelled

by anger. I am not an angry brighter. What I want to do is

exactly what people write about more private subjects do. Art is my

primary interest. I happen to use the materials as my Materials,

things from contemporary society and that is unusual. You used

deeply political material so, therefore, people look at political

messages and wondered whether you believe that you can in some ways

change people's mines or affect political change through what you

do. I don't think that I wanted to affect political changes that I

would choose the theatre. It is not the most efficient way of doing it.

Perhaps you were more naive. I am not saying it is not important. If

my interests were purely political and all the political then plainly

I would not be working in an art form. An art form imposes certain

difficulties on you that can affect you. Does it mean it was easier in

some ways to take current events and make art from them during the

Thatcher years? During the years when Britain was run by Tories?

feel the opposite. I found myself doing more quality documentary work,

journalistic work, when there was a diplomatic process leading up to

the beginning of Iraq. We talk about what happened, beginning with

the invasion. That was a play called Moody. I also wrote a play

about the financial crisis. I feel that things are happening so fast

and the world is changing so quickly that I am almost having to

resort to documentary because I have no time to do some of the

deeper processes Zawiya ting exactly as Balzac wanted to act, as

society's secretary. You asked me when I felt more compelled to write

about contemporary events. The answer does, I have never as much

as I haven't the past 10 years. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you

were so compelled to write about the events of the Blair years,

partly because you felt a sense of betrayal. Tony Blair was the one

politician do you had personally gone out on a limb for unsupported.

I don't think I did. Where do you think I went out and supported Tony

Blair? You suggested in the 90s that Tony Blair saying that a

politician with real hope -- to offer real hope for Britain. He did.

Historically, he offered hope. It is obviously clear that Barack

Obama is another example that politicians to offer hope are

always the politicians who are doomed to offer a disappointment.

Nobody will be disappointed by David Cameron because nobody has

any hope for him. Was there something of a sense of betrayal

enjoy reading of Tony Blair, you believe he could be a great Prime

Minister... I never said anything like that. I was never an open and

public supporter of Tony Blair. it a mistake to take a knighthood

from him? In 1990 you did. For some people, that sealed the idea that

Sir David Hare was close to New Labour. I think it would have been

a mistake to take a night to do if my work could become less good or

less radical. -- To Go knighted. Since then, I have been writing not

just as well as I have ever ridden but is radically as I have ever

ridden. I don't think the night to stop me in my tracks. -- written.

Let's talk about Page Eight. You talk about the work you did in the

run-up to the Iraq War. This is more about de so-called war on

terror. In essence, it is a fictional account of what happened

when they were working alongside the Americans on the war on terror.

-- the British intelligence services when they were working.

Let's take a look. I have called the two of you together. By want to

share a source. Before we go any further, you're very excited.

cannot resist a file called Top Secret. You are going to think,

"will hold on, the Americans are supposed to be our allies." they

are not what you call sheering borders.

He even you can have read that already. I have seen certain words.

I gather we are back in the Middle East. It is 2011, some time since

the invasion of Iraq and some time since the war on terror. Do you

think the world wants another exploration of this? This is

actually about MI5. There hasn't been a single work so far about

what has happened to MI5 in the first 10 years of the century. What

happened is, partly because it refused to offer Tony Blair the

information he wanted but he was putting together a case for the

invasion of Iraq and partly because of 7/7, it has been a rough few

years for MI5. John le Carre was writing about the Cold War, he is

the greatest writer on the subject. There is nothing contemporary. It

is a completely new field. I am intrigued by the way that if you're

writing, they do a lot of research. You mention journalism. I am just

wondering whether it is difficult to find a way of using research,

genuine factual research, and you're imagination in fiction and

are there dangers there? I don't think so. If you take the template

of the way I write, the interesting thing is that two-thirds of what

happens in the diplomatic process leading up to the invasion of Iraq

happened but find cold -- happened behind closed doors. When Tony

Blair and George Bush went for a walk in coffered, Texas, they did

not even take their assistance with them, which made their assistance

extremely nervous. Nobody knows what they said. I wrote that seen

as a fictional encounter. I invented that scene. People will

never know whether it was true or not. That is what Shakespeare did.

Mary Queen of Scots never met Elizabeth the first. That was

invented by Schiller. You create these fictional accounts of things

nobody knows about and then you add in a factual element and the

audience does not know which is which. It is perfectly clear.

Anything that is direct address to the audience is quotation and

anything that is the scene is invented from my imagination. The

interesting thing is, a lot of the people who are -- were party to

those events, they have confirmed the accuracy. I began by suggesting

that you have used fiction, you would call it lying, to tell a

bigger truth. I just wonder whether you have actually come to the

conclusion that sometimes the facts speak for themselves and don't need

the imagination of others. I have been involved and what is called

for Beighton theatre. When it came to the train crashes, I bought a

play called the permanent way. I let people speak. I arrange it as a

composer but arranged music. I said it the way I wanted it said. It was

entirely, word for word, of what they wanted to save. Your style is

becoming more journalistic. Would you agree with that? I don't at all.

I don't think it is a tall journalistic because there is

always an element of metaphor. My aims are always the same as for any

work abroad. In other words, I want things to suggest other things.

When I did Stuff Happens, it was compared to a Shakespearean play.

It was said it describe diplomatic processes and certain classic

situations in which intelligence meets Power and Power wins. It is

meant to be about all type of situations. It is not just a

documentary. Recently you said "there is so much to write about in

this century that I can get it down fast enough." I do feel that. Have

you thought about something that has preoccupied the minds of many

people in the last few weeks, the extraordinary St Bride's, rioting,

looting, I just wonder whether you have looked at what has happened in

this country and all talk about it being part of a cultural malaise, a

crisis of Mahler -- morality and brother you thought there was

something happening in this country that you would have to address in

your Orde. It does not work like that. I wish it did. I wish that

the subjects that you chose were for purely political reasons. After

I wrote a play about the Chinese revolution, people immediately

asked me why it did not write about the Russian Revolution. I cannot

explain why as a Russian I was drawn to writing about the Chinese

resolution just as Bacon could not tell you why he drew a Popes. When

I drew a monologue about my experience of Palestine, I got a

call asking me to come to Northern Ireland. I had to say that that is

not true artist's work. They do not choose their subject matter, their

subject-matter chooses them. -- that is not how artists' work.

London has been burning in the past few weeks. We have a Prime Minister,

David Cameron, prove his couch this in a moral way. We are talking

about society having elements in it that are sick. Because you have

clearly got strong views on Britain and its culture, I wondered what

the response to that is. I will respond but that the first say that

my opinions have nothing to do with my art. My opinions are as

interesting or as on interesting as any other citizen. My opinions are

saloon-bar opinions, but I happen to think. The only interesting

thing about my opinions is the degree to which they are

transmitted. My opinion is deeply shaped by the fact that at the end

of the 1980s and the beginning of the 1990s, insider political

theorising, I went over to writing about those people queued for on

the front line, the clergy, the police, teachers. More and more, I

wanted to deal with those people who felt that Thatcherism had

created divides in society which it was their job to bandage the wins.

I was very surprised to find a politicised police force as early

as the 1980s. The police were saying the social problems have

been created by a bunch of intellectuals in Downing Street

could have all sorts of fancy theories about welfare dependency

but be other people on the front line who have to deal with the

consequences of these intellectual theories. So, I must admit, in the

events of two weeks ago, my sympathies were and parley with the

I am interested in your thoughts on what Cameron has identified as a

moral sickness. A I accept that there is a moral malaise in the

country at large but it extends as much to David Cameron, who would

employ somebody like Michael Gove he had to pay back �7,000 of

expenses -- he was appointed as an indication secretary and he had to

return all that money to consume! The point is that he gave it back

and apologised. Yes, he was allowed to give it back and apologise!

British public seems to think that there is something profoundly wrong

with the sort of people who went out and looted and behaved in a

criminal fashion in the last two weeks and feet to draw a direct

parallel with politicians... think it would be unacceptable but

it is plainly a fact. Look at bankers behaviour in the last few

years. Is that morally acceptable? Why is that not condemned by

Downing Street in the same fashion as the violence. My sympathies are

with the victims of the violence and the police but once you start

using the language of moral sickness, you must start saying:

Who is morally stickier? -- sick here? Do you think Theatre and the

world you live in has anything to say to the sort of young people who

won the St? Do you believe that your art form can reach up? We know

perfectly well it can. We have the most wonderful young writers scheme

to which people from all sorts of backgrounds are invited to become

writers, take part in workshops... Defeat is one of the way that they

can contribute. -- v theatre is one of the ways they can contribute. --

The theatre. Do you accept that there is a cultural or artistic

apartheid out there? The people to become interested in the arts have

changed. The paperback and the television have become more and

more available to more people. theatre in London costs up to �50

in London. People like me who go to them do not walk around and see the

sorts of faces that frankly leave in the poorer parts of London and

the inner city. -- live. When the theatre was opened for a �5 ticket

in the balcony, I saw the faces and it was extremely mixed. The theatre

needs to get more people in. It is wonderful throwing out these all

charges, but they are old. Themes are being dealt with by people at

the National Theatre. They have worried about how to draw in more

people. Don't you think that everybody is working at it? Led us

talk about the state of Britain as you see it. I know you are working

on a new play which I think is about your own experiences at a

private school. I think you did not feel entirely comfortable there. Is

the fact that you have again reflected on it, is that a signal

that you believe there is something profoundly problematic about the

education system, the two-tier system? Know. I may believe that

but it has nothing to do with my opinion. It is an artistic venture

and it is about the moment at which a boy of 13 or 14 begins to realise

who he is. There is a terrible moment in your life when you

realise, as one of the characters says, you are compelled to leave

your whole life in the cupboard you have somebody you may not like very

much, namely, yourself. -- in the company of somebody. Your father

was absent a lot. Are there things about your upbringing and a feeling

of this connectedness from your father and scoring that encouraged

you to turn with Fien and rides? really do not know the answer to

that. -- to turn within and write. There is no doubt that everybody

else around me understood the rules. I tried to understand them and I

genuinely did not. I do not understand them today. You said

before the programme that people do not like coming on it because it is

too aggressive. And I immediately think, why has it never occurred to

me? I have never seen it but you represented it to me as the common

wisdom. I have the problem that I do not altogether understand. There

has been both an advantage and a disadvantage. You talk frankly

about yourself and your feelings and you have gone into a world

where you are constantly exposed. You say it is the same for actors.

You are putting yourself on the parapet and inviting people to

judge you night after night. You have done that for a long time. Has

it begun to weigh you down? -- wear? I am thinking about the

insecurity and worry. That is the very thing that also makes me a

writer. My wife says that I always seem to work -- seed out the most

unhappy person in a room. It is as if I am drawn by some of radar. --

seek out. I perhaps heaven over sensitivity to people's unhappiness

but that also makes me a writer. You give an impression of total

assurance. -- some people give an impression of total assurance but

it is a mask over insecurity. course. You said you are making

movies in America but not many people would watch. With all of the

anxiety in the profession, would you be better off doing something

else? No. Because I have to rise and it has become my life. It has

completely taken... One day I might make a really good play or film is,

I am afraid, one of the most important things in my life. It is

what I say to young people who want to go into this profession: You

think it will be to do with self expression but at first you will be

at the mercy of your gift and fining the limits of your gift

under imagination and it will be extremely painful when you discover

you cannot write the way you want to write. But the larger part of

the profession will involve being judged. If you do not like being

judged, it is a difficult job. you talk of what keeps you going,

other writers have said that if they are almost we write a work

when we are quite young and then we struggle. Do you feel that? No, it

goes in waves. There are periods where you feel on top of things. By

have been around a few times but I think the players I have ridden in

the last decade are as good as any I have written. Because this is a

new sense of curiosity or passion? I do not know. I have been

fortunate in that I can regenerate myself. There was a crucial moment

of the end of the 1970s after having been an apocalyptic leftist

I thought of the decade was going to end badly. I thought everyone

would go left but everyone move to the right. Nobody had seen that

coming. I could not really wide for four years because I was so

completely confused with what was going on. -- write. I wish we did

not have to, but we must indeed there. Thank you for joining me.

A dull start to the week across many parts of the British Isles. A

little bit of sunshine around if you are lucky at the start of the

day. There is a weather front close by the north of Scotland. To the

eastern side of the Pennines, there will be some sunshine to start the

day. There will be one or two showers right from the start

towards the western side of Wales, perhaps in the far north as well.

Showers on the northern coast of Northern Ireland. They will move

towards Scotland. Some cloud and a little rain in Edinburgh and the

Lothians area, and perhaps in the far north of England too. A dry

start to the day and there will be some sunshine. Temperatures went

into single figures overnight. There may be more cloud around than

there was at the finish of Monday. Cloud will become more extensive,

so make the most of the sun if you can. The temperatures are about 15

through the heart of Scotland. Not much better than 18 or 19 further

south. Some of the cloud will begin to dissipate in the course of the

evening. We may see temperatures fall back into single figures. That

is not that unusual for this time of year. There is a distinct chill,

however. The weather is fairly settled

because of this large area of high pressure. It will keep things fine