Mohamed Qubaty, Former advisor to the Yemeni Prime Minister HARDtalk

HARDtalk. It looks as though Yemen is the Arab Revolution in which

went off the rails. Do you agree? Well, I don't know - it is rather

unfortunate. The revolution in Yemen is not linked only to the

Arab Spring. The events in Yemen have unfolded over the past years

since the last civil war in 1994. Especially where I come from in the

south you could say that the events of the revolution started at least

from 2007 when the southern movement started its uprising

against the regime. No doubt we ha hastability in Yemen over

many years. We have seen political violence. What we saw at the

beginning of this year, may be sparked by what was happening in

Tunisia, were mass protests. We saw young people in particular on the

streets of Sanaa. We saw days of rage. Then we saw a great deal of

violence in April and in May. That seemed to subvert the ideals of

this protest movement. I could say that the revolution and

revolutionaries have been on the streets as protesters and

demonstrators. They have always claimed to follow a peaceful line

of demonstration. It was the ruling clique that actually used force, if

you go back to the events... If you could say that the revolt started

in early February until 18th March when we had the bloody Friday where

about some 60 people were killed. Security forces killed their guns

on protesters and we saw dozens of people killed. It was unfortunate.

The people had been trained by our friends in the West to counter-

terrorism but it was used to pick the people who were protesting

peacefully. But you yourself chose to resign from your official

position - you had a position in the ruling party - you were an

adviser from the Prime Minister. You walk away from that. In the

weeks and months that have followed the opposition movement, of which

you are now part, has been taken over by tribal interests, by a

renegade general who, frankly, has no cleaner hands than those who are

still in the official army - people who, clearly, are not Democrats.

Yes, I think I have left my official position but I left the

party one year earlier than that.... We had a different stance starting

from at least 2003 if not 1997 when we saw that the democratisation

protest in Yemen was being derailed by the President and his men

because they were looking for, at one time, for what they called the

comfortable majority in the parliament. In 2003 they went for a

very wide majority which took over 85% of the seats. I don't want to

spend too much time on your personal career because I think

there are different issues. I think that is rewriting history. You're a

loyal servant of the Prime Minister until the beginning of this year.

You were on the American public radio at the end of last year

telling the world that the government needed more military

supplies - more military training to come from the West. Well, at one

time we needed the aid to help us confront the situation then. At one

time - this is the end of last year when you told me in this interview

that Mr Saleh was no longer acceptable as a leader in your

country. You were still defending their government. I was not

defending the government. Why are you telling the West to give more

military training and supplies? we didn't say that - we needed more

help in Yemen and we still need help now. On the same position - we

need more help to confront all the issues we are facing in Yemen,

starting from terrorism to poverty and... Arm... Democratisation. Here

in London last year you interviewed the Foreign Minister - at that time,

our friends in the West were siding with us. They said they wanted to

help Yemen - prevent it from sliding towards a failed state.

yes, but you're talking about Yemen and actually what you mean now is

that you are part of an opposition movement. My point to ute is -

having jumped ship from the government AU loyally served for so

many years, you are part of an incoherent banned of different

opposition factions. -- incoherent band of different opposing factions.

There are the secular southern Socialists, there are tribal

lists... There is nothing that glues these people together in

terms of ideology. The thing that glues them together, Stephen, is

they're looking for a government that would be a civilian government

that would head towards true democratisation, federalism,

regionalisation, they are the same things which I have been actually

calling for for the past 13-14 years. It is just the President has

been, at one time, promising people he will go forward with that even...

Last March the President said he was with regionalism and federalism

- he is going to move towards a parliamentary system, a democracy

system - things we have been asking for the President has been paying

lip-service to it but nothing has materialised. So you're just

sticking with this idea about who is the opposition right now. -- so,

just sticking with this idea. You include the reformed Islamist party.

The United States their -- regard their leader as a terrorist. He is

not the real leader of that party. Well, he was the founder of... He

has a track record which shows he is a very important player within

the Yemeni branch of the Brotherhood. The situation is not

only going to be decided by what is going on in Sanaa. It will be

decided what is going on in different places across the country.

Different cities - everywhere. What is happening in Sanaa is only part

of the picture. There is a wide sort of collision working together

- they have agreed they are working towards a parliamentary federal

Yemen. And the a renegade commander of the First Division - he has his

own allegations of human rights abuses, terrible malpractice - you

are happy to see him as one of the key figures in your opposition

movement? No - the man... This is the man who commands one of the

most fearsome military fighting forces in Yemen. Either you will

walk away? No, we have got people on the ground - if they feel they

have been somehow... That is precisely my point. That young

people on the ground - particularly the students and unemployed young

people who were demanding change and jobs and demanding a real say

in the future of Yemen - they have no interest, frankly in lots of

these Establishment figures like the general. There is a mismatch

between the youth protest we saw and the interests who have now

converged around this anti-Mr Saleh campaign.Drawing the last game -

the last goal. There is going to be a movement shifting, slowly,

towards achieving those aims. We can never achieve them in one go.

For the past 30 years Yemen has been suffering a lot. People have

endured a lot. You cannot change it in a few moments. Things have got

to recover. I am happy if this general and the rest of them say -

we are leading, we're going to be more save for the people - we are

moving towards democratisation. The most important thing now is giving

people the essay - shifting power from the centre towards the

periphery. If we can do that... That is a long-term aspiration. In

the short-term there a lot of things to decide. President Saleh -

33 years in power. He does not want to be removed by a coup. He says he

is prepared to transition power but he wants to. From within the

country and he wants to do it by peaceful means. That is why he has

refused to give up the presidency. He wants to come back from his

convalescence in Saudi Arabia. Will you countenance that? That is a

ploy - buying time. He has lost all credibility. The man has no

credibility at all. We suffered from him for the past... In 1994 he

signed an accord in Jordan and the next day he remained. Again, I was

in London just eight, nine months ago and we had something written up

by the President and his political adviser and three weeks later he

just completely got rid of it. Dropped it. We have no confidence

in dealing with this man. You could argue that is a difficult position

for you to sustain, logically, if nothing else. He defended this man

- going back to your support - you supported Mr Saleh and his regime

for years when the United States state department and Human Rights

Watch, Amnesty International - a whole heap of people were

cataloguing systematic abuses of the Yemeni people by President

Saleh's regime and you supported it. Non! No... At you were an

ambassador. You had a picture of the present in your office. I was

the number two, number three in the party. We were driven out - I was

demoted as an ambassador. Not actually... It was a demotion

because people like us - they didn't like people like us who

spoke about democratisation, by shifting towards something that has

been helped by people. Let's speak about our friends in the West. They

have been siding with the man knacker we have been against him

for a while. They were telling us - stop for a while, let's see if he

can achieve. We have proven to them he was only paying lip service to

what he has been saying about democracy about pluralistic regimes

and so on. All right, so you won't countenance him coming back. It is

unclear whether the Saudi Arabians, blocking a team, won him to come

back. Even if he doesn't come back - the fact is that his son is a key

player in the military. His nephews are acutely involved in the

security and intelligence apparatus. The circle around him is still

there in Sanaa. But they have to be removed? If the present means what

he says and said what he means he has advised his party to sign for

what the initiative. The initiative that all these people have to move

and that power should be shifted to the vice-president who will be an

interim president and we will have a national unity government and

then we will have an inclusive dialogue, a national dialogue which

we have been asking for for the past ten years. A true dialogue

between different political parties. And the question is whether that

can be achieved by peaceful means. Somebody tried to kill President

Saleh in June. He got terrible burns when his palace was attacked.

Did you support that? I would not support violence at all. You would

not support violence at all? the feel about the fact they is

believed that the tribal leadership and perhaps the general were

directly behind the attack? I don't think they were responsible. People

in the opposition? No, people within the presidential structure.

But we are still a question - the present was about to sign an

initiative two days before he was attacked. People were interested to

stop his initiative - and their other people who should be accused.

We know that the Foreign Minister of Saudi Arabia was about to arrive

in Sanaa... Just two days after... So somehow you think it was Mr

Saleh's own people we decided to get rid of him? Well, nobody else

believes that in Yemen, but let's leave that to one side and talk

Do you believe that the Saudis have a policy that has been described as

keeping Yemen? I hope they have realise their keeping Yemen week is

against their... Do you believe that is what they are still dealing

with regard to Yemen? Now we are through an interim period where

people calling the shots have got different opinions. The Saudis have

said they are committed towards a united Yemen and the stability in

Yemen because that is their interest. It's Yemen mousse, moves

towards an -- if Yemen does move towards an arty... And you believe

other countries are not doing enough to deliver change, reform

and democracy for your country, Yemen. That is why I am trying to

get back to what we have been done, what has been done in London. The

last interview was just before the formation of the grip of the

friends of Yemen. We are now heading towards a hear man which

might disintegrate. Is that in the interest of the West? The region?

In a sense you have summed up your own problem - it is all about, as

far as the Saudis and the United States are concerned, it is about

stability and making sure that a lead is kept on terrorism -- and

that a lead is kept on terrorism. - - a lid. If the Reform Party has

links that appeared with to go to militant Jihad parties. No, part of

the people are being trained and being kept under control by the

President... Hang on, we will look in detail. We spoke earlier about

the founder of the University, the founder of Islam. He was a teacher

and an associate of one of the most wanted Al-Qaeda operatives in the

world. I can mention many names who are within the President and he

came out and said that the people close to the President, the man who

was there said I was in the presidential palace just last week.

The President has been playing with Al-Qaeda because they are the

number one fundraiser for him. evidence suggests that you and the

opposition are now using Al-Qaeda fighters as allies against the

government. If we look at reports on fighting, forces are being

counted by different Islamist militia. There seems to be evidence

that a group affiliated with Al- Qaeda or is doing some of the

fighting, fighting on your side. A reporter of the Guardian was

there and that the number two of Al-Qaeda. These are the men of Ali

Abdullah Saleh. They for beside him in the south. We have got one of

the regiments. It was the government because the President

had been helping them. You may have a perception problem here with your

people in Yemen and the international community. The ruling

party, just a few weeks ago, accused - and they talked about

examples - accused the opposition coalition of "Using violence,

terrorism and vandalism and making Potter -- making statements

are."People are fighting, working with the National Security

Organisation, working with the political security organisations.

We can prove that. People are siding with the President. He has

been threatening. The Americans and the West have realised that this

game has been played for a long time. Do you really think that?

Knew well one of the International spokesman for the movement of the

opposition. This is... You say that if we in the opposition are allowed

to take power we will put a lid on Dee Dee Heidi -- on the Jihad

activists. Why on earth, according to the state media in Yemen, have

dozens of soldiers being killed by these forces in the last few weeks?

To yes, they have been killed. soldiers. They are killing the

opposition forces. The people fighting now other people belonging

to the revolution. The people of STAR -- Saleh... It is complex,

there is no doubt that in Yemen is complex but we have made deeply

fragmented country. The opposition includes is almost, tribal groups,

it is a terrible mess. -- it includes people who want Islam

forwards. In Yemen you do not have, it is too easy to imagine it

falling apart. You are very much sympathising the thing. Yemen has

been one entity for the past 3,000 years. That is not true.

thousands of years, an entity. It is not a new country that has just

appeared on the map for the past 50, 100 years. I come from an area

where we had civilian rule, you could say the most advanced

civilian people in the Arabian peninsula. I want to say this to

you. In the midst of the violence in March, a man said this - if the

regime falls there will be chaos. Everyone will carry his own rifle

and go to his own tribe and our country will be a new Somalia. Do

you think he was right? No. He was trying to push the country into

violence. There are 60,000 pieces of firearm. There has not been

violence. The people who tried to kill the President were trying to

people. I forgot that you said his

side did that. This is what you said in May - we are on the verge

of full blown up civil war. A couple of months later, would you

say that is inevitable? Still it is a big possibility if President

Soleil is allowed to return. -- President Saleh. He was with his

family or he's going to push the country into disintegration. That

is his game. Is it your decision to plough everything on him as an

individual, responsible for all of this, because that is the only

thing that unites... It is the regime. A regime that you served in

for years. Many people have left the regime a long time ago. Mohamed

Qubaty, we have to end the affair. A fairly settled spell of weather

across the British Isles and it looks set to continue. I am hopeful

that the new day will be brighter for sums. There will still be an

awful lot of cloud across the British Isles. There may be some

showers but that's all it may amount to. More cloud across the

east coast that we will come to that in just a second. Quite a

decent start in the southern counties. The further north you are

in Wales, quite a bit of clout across Northern Ireland but

essentially a dry start. So too for the greater part of Scotland. You

will notice some gaps in the cloud. It is not wall-to-wall by any means

at all. There was a chance of one, two shower was through the day

across the north Norfolk coast. You can see the extent of the sunshine

across the southern counties. It has been there for the past couple

of days. As has been the pattern, and you may start with sunshine at

nine o'clock but as we gone into the afternoon, the cloud beginning

to build up and spread into some of those gaps. There might be the odd

shower here or there. There is no organisation to it. The top

temperature, rather disappointing for this time of year. 18, 19

degrees. 3 the evening and overnight, some gaps meant well

filter through. -- into the evening. Temperatures falling into single

figures again. It is feeling autumnal, particularly if you get

the mist or fog. Single figures into the towns and cities. This is

the high pressure that is bringing the dry weather, the cloudy weather

at the moment. Into Thursday, more drivers and temperatures beginning