Dore Gold, Former Israeli UN Ambassador & Nabil Sha'ath, Former Palestinian Deputy Prime Minister HARDtalk


Dore Gold, Former Israeli UN Ambassador & Nabil Sha'ath, Former Palestinian Deputy Prime Minister

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They are calling it Palestine 194 day. A vote on Palestine becoming

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the next state in the UN. Could it advance the cause of peace

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negotiation or would it cemented divisions between Israel and the

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Palestinians, setting back the prospect of a peace settlement?

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Joining me, Dore Gold and Nabil Nabil Schaaf, former Deputy Prime

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Minister and Dore Gold, former Israeli UN ambassador. Thank Maxis

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for coming on HARDtalk. Nabil Schaaf, if I can begin with you.

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What are you going to be doing at the United Nations? We are going to

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be asking for membership. The state of Palestine was declared in 1988.

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It has gathered momentum and today, 126 countries recognise it. What

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are you asking? According to UN rules, for membership can only be

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granted by the Security Council but that is where there is a

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possibility of somebody using the veto. America. You will go to the

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second best option, the General Assembly? We will do what we can,

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knocking at the door of the Security Council that they can also

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give us less than full membership, they can give us support and a

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recommendation to the Security Council. We will approach both in

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the right time. Just to nail this down. When you say recognition, the

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Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, said in July that he will be

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seeking for membership and recognition of Palestine on the

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1967 borders. Correct. So you're going to pre-empt negotiations? The

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UN is going to divide Palestine with defined borders. There is a

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separation between declaring a state and the final border with

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neighbours. The border with our neighbours, even though there is a

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lot of legitimate reasons be chosen 1967, it will still have to be

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negotiated with Israel in accordance with Resolution 242.

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it is entirely symbolic? You're asking for wrested -- recognition

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but it has no force. It has won. -- one. We are asking the world to

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consider that we are restate whose land has occupied. There is a

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consideration between land disputed or land occupied. As it is occupied,

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any to equal partners Ken eventually agree on the final

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demarcation. Dore Gold, you speak confidently about getting more than

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a two-thirds majority there. His Israel going to sit on the

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sidelines? Israel has said it does not recognise this as a legitimate

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act. We have a set of agreements with the Palestinians going to 1993.

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There is an important clause, a core commitment. Both sides

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recognise the Oslo agreement is still in force. The cause says

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neither side will change the status of the West Bank or the Gaza Strip

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brighter the completion of negotiations. What have you been

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doing with the West Bank and east Jerusalem? A good counter. But let

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me explain. Settlements do not change the status. If we have a

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disagreement over whether future borders side, we can move

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settlements. We already pulled 9,000 people out of their homes.

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Settlements are not an issue. are a huge issue. If you are

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talking in a narrow legal way, in terms of politics, the real world,

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tripling the number of settlers and the rest Bank -- in that the West

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Bank, that has a tremendous effect. I have a treat - Mexico to share

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with you. When you Rabin negotiated, he did not agree to the freeze. The

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PLO signed it. We have negotiated with Palestinians well we built in

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their areas and they need associated with us. It is not a

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huge issue. It is a huIt is a huor the rest of the world. I do not

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want to get sidetracked. The reason I raised it is because it is all

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very well to save the Palestinians are in abrogation of the Oslo

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accords but let's just talk about the real world. Find me the claws

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an an agreement. -- the clause in the Oslo agreement.

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Because of some people insisting, negotiating about freezing

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settlements, nonetheless, because of this issue, doubt is cast. Come

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back to negotiations. Sit down with us. Talk to us. I want to explore

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negotiations but can I ask, in practical terms, what do you think,

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if this boat goes ahead, what effect will it have? -- vote.

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Symbolic or we'll affects? For -- real effects? More countries will

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recognise this bilaterally. Your Foreign Minister was quoted as

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saying, this does not make any difference on the ground. It is

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symbolic. Is that what it is? determination is not symbolic. --

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self. It creates binding commitments between us and all of

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the countries that recognise us. will change the lives of

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Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip how? The major thing

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that makes it impossible is the Israeli occupation and Israeli

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settlement and is rarely wars and Israeli checkpoints. These are the

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problems. As we have upgraded our representation. The world looking

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at us as a state, we received a lot of support. A lot of support to

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give us the ability to hire employees. It is happening whether

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you're a member of the UN or not. It has increased significantly as

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our status has risen. To be members of all the UN organisations, our

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ability, it gives us rights to utilise international law to

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support and protect our people and to make it harder for Israel to

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consider rise just the people under occupation of a disputed territory.

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Is that not a reasonable point? The Israeli occupation, which a number

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of countries to see as a -- illegal, the separation barrier, decreed

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illegal. All that will become much more difficult for Israel if

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Palestine is seen as a sovereign state. The leadership has put in

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the European Union in a difficult position. They are divided as to

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how to respond. I'm not asking about the European Union. This is a

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much more complex situation than people think. The commitment not to

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change the status of the territories was signed by the

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European Union. Britain supports the Palestinians. It is working

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against an agreement it signed. Palestinians are saying they want

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to see restart negotiations. Israel has put in a precondition. It is

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totally untrue. This is not a precondition. Israel says, you come

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to last. Recognise the rights of the Palestinian people. Two years

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ago, the Prime Minister of Israel said, I recognise the rights of

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Palestinian people and a Palestinian state. You should

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recognise the rights of the Jewish people for a nation state for the

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Jewish people and for some reason, the Palestinians cannot say that.

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Because that abrogate the right of return. -- abrogates. Please, let

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me finish. The returning of Palestinian refugees to their

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homeland. You are prejudging the negotiations just as much as he,

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saying it is fine but the when recognize Palestine on the 1967

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borders is prejudging that part of the negotiations. You are asking me

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as an Israeli to recognise the rights of the Palestinian people to

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a state but you refuse to let me put the rights of the Jewish people

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to a state. That is unfair. Do you agree that the Palestinians have a

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problem that there are several million Jews living in a place that

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they consider to be theirs? We have two problems. Settlements. We never

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accepted settlements. It is a demographic change. What about his

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role within the 1967 borders? -- Israel. The terms we had to accept

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it to move on in terms of the Oslo agreement was no unilateral acts

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that would change things on the ground. Changing the status of the

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West Bank. The specific point about recognising the Jews have a right

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to self-determination. It is not a question of the Jews have been that

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right. It is that question of all Israelis having that right. 22 % of

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Israel is made of Palestinians, Christians and Muslims to worry

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Israeli citizens. They are not choose but they are part of Israeli

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society. -- Jews. Are you suggesting their future would be

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jeopardised? It is like a black man in the United States when somebody

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insists you recognise the US as a Wasp country, for white Anglo-Saxon

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Protestants. We recognised Israel in 1993 as a sovereign state. We

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still commit ourselves to recognise in it. -- recognising. We can never

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ask Israel to recognise us as an Arab or Muslim state. Let me be

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specific. What to do you think is going to happen on the day after

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this vote? How will things change? We are not raising the expectations

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of our people. Israel will not to leave a country the day after.

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are you planning mass demonstrations? Will there be an

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Arab Spring? Not on that day. That action is an international non-

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violent action and will be supported with glee and happiness.

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It will not be supported with glee and happiness by one of your major

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funders. America has made it clear. It is not part of the Palestinian

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people. You have a responsibility. You have been written to by senior

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members of Congress warning, both houses of which have voted heavily

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against you, they will cut funding. I would be very happy if they did

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the same to Israel. We will cut off funding if you continue settlements.

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The Americans cannot be that selective and I'm not going to

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listen to them if they do. See you think it is an empty threat? It is

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not the issue. It is the issue. Abandoning them negotiations?

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submit to date of the American pressure on this issue, but I will

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have to give up everything else. Everything else I want to do and it

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is part of my right. We do not want to battle with them. What are you

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As in material breach of the agreement, if they go against the

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core commitment of their agreement it is completely open question as

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to how we respond. That is what I am asking you - how will you

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respond? That is a stress in addition to this. How are you going

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to respond? We will have to see. We have to make plans. Your Foreign

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Minister has said... Is that going to happen? I don't know. We have to

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see what the actual actions... is not that long that you have to

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wait. Do you think that is a sensible move? I think that if the

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agreement is an violated so fundamentally and the international

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agreement that was signed by the European Union, the Russians, the

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Norwegians, the Egyptians... It I am asking what you will do. I think

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we should study the response. I would give you a specific... Do you

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think, specifically, that you should think about annexing part of

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the West Bank? I am not sure. I am telling you what we think. We have

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a very serious problem that is emerging. Why are the Palestinians

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doing this? Mahmoud Abbas explained the motivation. He says he wants to

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waged, let's call it a legal war, a legal struggle against the Israeli

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international... This move on the part of Mahmoud Abbas is not to

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level the playing field, make it easier for the Palestinians to

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negotiate with Israel, to the contrary. It is to open a whole new

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door of going to the National Criminal Court, the ICC... While

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you're afraid of international law? We are not afraid of international

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law. You can load up the entire international legal system with

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complaints that have been thrown out because they are baseless as I

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saw that in Gaza personally. This is not the way to make peace. We

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need to sit down - sit down with us. You have sat down with every Prime

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Minister. Sit down with us. Sit down with us! Don't go to the UN!

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You are tying up a whole international... It is useless...

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It can only create complications. How much support is there within

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the Palestinian leadership for this? I haven't heard a single

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comment in favour of this from your Prime Minister. Come on now... Of

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course he is in favour of this... He made a statement that he

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retracted several times... He said what we need in the final analysis

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is not only the retribution of 190 countries, we need the recognition

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of one country that occupies our claim -- recognition. What he is

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about is about building a Palestinian state on the ground.

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Looks, he is not in charge of our political... He is a respected

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Prime Minister whose role is to run the security and Economic Affairs

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Committee is not a political decision maker. But he thinks this

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is a bad idea. I don't think Mahmoud Abbas wanted to do this.

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didn't. People have to negotiate and talk, even within people's own

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families have to talk about future plans. I think he is fully

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convinced... Yd than he has changed his mind? Because he saw the

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reasons. He saw the advantages. He saw the limited costs that it would

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take. Let me tell you - Israel has accepted the fact that there is an

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independent Palestinian state in all of our agreements. When we

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signed with Israel they were 88 countries that would have all

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embassies for arse. Let's talk about the P and Orrell. There are

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lots of people - your friends - who say that making his move to the

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United Nations were made to staff up the chances of the Palestinian

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refugees who the key and AU are supposed to represent. --PLO. Up be

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his appeal over that... That state is the ownership of all the

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Palestinians. Dore Gold, can I ask more broadly - do you not feel that

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you are a... When you think this is the right move or not, you are on

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the wrong side of the debate? point is, the vast majority of the

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world believes it is time for a viable Palestinian state, Israel is

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standing in the way. The Prime Minister of Israel said he is ready

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for a Palestinian state. Define Palestinian state - it is bomber

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that controlled borders, without control of the electromagnetic...

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It is the Israeli view which I am here for, bear with me. This

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affects how Israelis look at the future of the West Bank. We

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withdrew. It was unilateral, but it was, ordinated with Mahmoud Abbas.

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He said there would be no rocket fire while we withdrew. Would we

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expect that if you withdraw from territory that the Palestinians say

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it is part of the estate that rocket fire should drop? Increased

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from 2005 up to almost 900. Without getting into that - and I know it

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is important as far as Israel is concerned, but how do you define a

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Palestinian state? If we withdrew from the Gaza Strip and we got a

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500 % increase in rocket fire on Israeli cities - and every one has

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seen this, BBC, CNN, you have seen it. How can we be certain that this

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will not happen in the West Bank? That is why we need a negotiation

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with the Palestinians directly to talk about security issues. If they

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say - to a bad, we are deciding with the UN that the lines will be

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the 67 lines at all the leaders have said are indefensible - what

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is there left to talk about? Can I ask both of you - we are hearing

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from both of you, passionately and in some detail, many of the

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arguments that we have heard over the past decades, to be frank.

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There is this thing called the Arab Spring. Are you not afraid, Nabil

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Sha'ath, that one of the currents we have seen from the Arab Spring

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is that the tired old leaderships had ended up being swept away by

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public disaffection. Are you not afraid that the Palestinians might

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do that to you? It would be a pleasure, believe me. The question

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of democracy is a question that is important to the Palestinians more

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than anybody else. The Arab Spring is a validation - a vindication

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that the Palestinians' quest for self-determination and democracy...

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The peace process so far has not really ended occupation. There have

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been 20 years after we signed Oslo. We are still under occupation.

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Every inch of Palestine. Are you going back to negotiations? We are

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going back to negotiations. There are limited chances it could

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succeed. While we discuss peace, land is being taken from us. We

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cannot really, any more, but might this refers to a time when there

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was hope. When we felt we might, in fact, finish everything. Now after

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20 years we are still fully occupied. Dore Gold - is there not

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a chance, I know there is a lot of uncertainty in Israel about what is

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happening regionally, that just by hungering down you could actually

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make up the worst of all worlds. It is up to you now to make the

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weather rather than simply folding your arms. The ultimate

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responsibility for any serious democratic government in the West -

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anywhere in the world, is to protect the lives of its civilians.

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What is happening with the Arab Spring for arse is a positive. I

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would like to see the Arab world democratic so that Arab leaders --

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for us. Tomic... Those new Arab leaders sound all the more

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concerned with what is happening in Israel. I think they are focused

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inwardly. We're getting instability. Do we know who will lead Syria? Do

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we know who will lead Saudi Arabia in two years? Do we know what will

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happen to Iraq after the Americans and British have completed their

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withdrawal? Will become a new Arab democracy with accountable

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government or will it become simply a satellite of Iran. Certain

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security elements are important to keep the Jewish people alive. We

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need to sit with the Palestinians. We will put the security issue

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first. It is difficult, but... will have to leave it there.

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Painted the coming on to HARDtalk Dore Gold and Nabil Sha'ath. --

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thank you. Good morning - if you have been

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watching the weather forecast you will know we are heading for a

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spell of stormy weather across the northern half of the UK. We have an

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amber alert for the strength of the wind affecting southern Scotland

:24:54.:24:59.

and northern England. Some detail - you can see this cloud moving in

:24:59.:25:03.

from the Atlantic all associated with an area of low pressure that

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is pushing in across from the west. We will see some extensive rain

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through Northern Ireland and into northern Scotland. First thing in

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the morning it will be a grey and windy start. Not the strongest of

:25:20.:25:24.

the winds by 8am but a fairly miserable journey to work or school

:25:24.:25:29.

across Scotland and north-west England. To the east of the

:25:29.:25:32.

Pennines it all stay rather cloudy but not a bad start. Some patchy

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bits and pieces through Lincolnshire, East Anglia and

:25:35.:25:40.

London. Breezy, but temperatures of around 17 degrees by 8am. Some

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cloud generally through the south coast and down into the south-west.

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Strong wind is a feature particularly on the exposed coast

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of Wales and further inland there will be some showers to come. We

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come over to Northern Ireland and we will see a spell of wet weather

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continuing. That will be a bit of a nuisance. There is that area of low

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pressure. That is where the strongest of winds will develop. In

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Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern England. For the rest

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of England and Wales not too bad with some sunny spells coming

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through. Temperatures at 21-22. 16 degrees in the cloudy wet weather.

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The strongest of the wind from lunchtime onwards through the

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afternoon across Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern

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England. There will be some localised gusts of wind here

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causing some damage. Strong Glyn is likely to cause trouble disruptions,

:26:33.:26:43.
:26:43.:26:45.

stay tuned to the BBC Radio station. We keep the wind across Scotland

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throughout Tuesday. Elsewhere it is a case a bright and breezy with

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:26:59.:27:00.

plenty of showers. A similar feel - 15-20 degrees, not as warm in the

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south corner. Good news to cling on to - by Wednesday we'll lose the

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rain in the north. High pressure takes over and weather conditions

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