Michael Chertoff, former US Director of Homeland Security HARDtalk


Michael Chertoff, former US Director of Homeland Security

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the highest in three years. Now it is time for HARDtalk.

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Michael Chertoff was the man whose task it was to keep the USA safe.

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For four years he was the director of homeland security under George W

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Bush and a leading figure in America's war on terror. Michael

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Chertoff says that ten years after the September 11 attacks the world

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remains threatened by terrorist groups. So what have we learned

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over the last decade about how best to combat this ongoing threat?

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Michael Chertoff, welcome to HARDtalk.

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Thank you. Do you still think that it is a war

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on terror? I think it is, but it is an unusual war. It needs both

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traditional military action and also law enforcement. It runs the

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spectrum. I think that is the way national security will be from now

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on. It will be a spectrum. Do you understand why some of your Peers

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have said that the use of the word war is actually counter-productive?

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-- some of your peers. It was Osama Bin Laden who began by declaring a

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war. He began by declaring it. If you look at the destruction that

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was visited on the United States on 9/11, certainly the scale in terms

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of loss of life eclipses any other in American history. He used the

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tools of war. We saw Osama Bin Laden killed earlier this year.

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That is the kind of thing you do in a war, not in a criminal case.

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danger, I guess, is you are being sucked into the territory on which

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your enemy, Osama Bin Laden, wants to take you. The boss of MI5,

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Britain's secret intelligence service, said that she felt the

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9/11 attacks were a crime, not an act of war.... She says the attacks

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were monstrous, but they were just a crime, not qualitatively

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different to what had gone on before. I have to disagree with

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that. If that were correct, it would be the case that we should

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not have killed Osama Bin Laden, we should have served a subpoena on

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him or indicted him and tried to have him extradited from Pakistan.

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What were the chances that would have happened.... our success is

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the ability to combine military tools and traditional investigative

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tools as one total effort. I think that still remains, practically,

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the most effective approach to striking back. Is it a war that can

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be resolved militarily? Identikit can be resolved militarily. I think

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in the short-term, these tools keep a safer -- I don't think it can. It

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is reminiscent of the Cold War, when you are fighting with a set of

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ideas. How we win that in the long run involves not just government

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action but engaging the communities that are of the recruiting grounds

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for terrorists and getting them to turn against Al-Qaeda. If you are

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making comparisons - others have been made. For example, what

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happened in Northern Ireland. There it was a terrorist campaign as far

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as many people were concerned. Essentially it was something that

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was resolved politically in the end. It was done by finding extremists

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with whom one could talk. Do you think that is the approach you

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could be taking with Al-Qaeda? Eventually those who you can talk

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to should be negotiated with? Recalled a resolution in Northern

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Ireland - it resulted from the fact that I R eight had demands that

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were, whether you agree with them or not, at least within the realm

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of reason. They wanted to have a certain political status for

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Ireland. It is possible to come up with a compromise, whether it was

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up double or not I can't tell you. As I understand, Al-Qaeda has no

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compromise. They want not only to drive America and the West out of

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the Middle East, they don't like the cartoons that a published in

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newspapers in Denmark. They don't like certain television programmes.

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They don't like the way we run our plights in our own countries. It is

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hard to seek common ground. What needs to happen is to demonstrate

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to the audience out there, the potential recruits, that in the end

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Al-Qaeda is not a path that leads to anything productive. Hopefully

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there will be other alternatives, including the Arab Spring, which

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may be a very hopeful alternative narrative for the Arab world and

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the Middle East. While you are negating the ideology you say Al-

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Qaeda holds, isn't there a danger that while in prosecuting this war

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you could compromise the values which you claim to espouse so

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dearly? A former senior official from the sea I ate and F B I said

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recently that security does not Trump freedom -- CIA. The risks we

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face is if we have another event of that magnitude that we will over-

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react and give Al-Qaeda an excuse to say "we are still there, we can

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still galvanise the attention of the Americans". That seems

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precisely what you are suggesting we do. I am not suggesting we ever

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over-react. I am suggesting that if the measures we put in place now,

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first of all, reduce the risk, and second - hopefully they build some

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resilience. If there was a successful attack our response

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would be appropriate. Not excessive. Part of what we have tried to do in

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the last ten years is to build an architecture for our security that

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can be sustained over a long period. I agree - we do not want to over-

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react. We also don't want to under- react. Binding apposition of

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balance has been a task of the last ten years. -- building a position

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of balance.... Rendition was not actually in the domain of my

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department. I am an observer. Rendition began under the Clinton

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administration. The key issue is - how do you gather intelligence and

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how do you help people who are dangerous to the United States?

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Sometimes that involves a more compelling way of gathering that

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intelligence - moving people to a country where than they may have

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more success... Because they might be torturing... Not because they

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are torturing - because their knowledge of the culture, the

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individual - because they will not be necessarily getting Miranda

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rights and Court room oils when they first appear means there is a

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bit more ability to extract information from people. --

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corporate lawyers. You're putting a very softly. We are talking about a

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co-operation between the sea I ate and Libyan police. Files had just

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come out from Tripoli -- CIA. They showed that there CIA was co-

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operating with the Libyan police on the rendition of certain suspects.

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I haven't seen the documents. I am not quite sure what extremely

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closely means. They were very chummy. First-name terms, people

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who were seen as high-value subjects. There is no question...

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It you have a high value subject, someone with a great deal of

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information - core operating with another intelligence agency to get

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what they have -- co-operating. This is something you want to do.

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This was the Libyan secret police. The CIA must have known... People

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were going to be tortured. I am not sure I'm going to agree with you

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that they knew people would be tortured. My understanding of the

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law is that generally what the CIA would do is a... I can't tell you

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if people were mistreated. All the anecdotal evidence and more than

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anecdotal evidence, generally, shows that torture in these

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countries is widespread. Again, you are referring to evidence I haven't

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seen. Let me put it in perspective this way. In the US government and

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the British Government deal with unpalatable regimes? I have no

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doubt about it. In World War 2 we made inroads with Stalin, possibly

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one of the was monsters in the world. Churchill said that if the

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devil himself agreed to fight Hitler I would make favourable

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reference to him in the House of Commons. It would be lovely if

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people you dealt with were all up spending priests and ministers, but

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those people don't get intelligence. Sometimes you're working with

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people who are on the difficult side of the spectrum. You need to

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balance. There are some things you will not countenance, but there are

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some things you will. Would you countenance water boarding? We can

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have debates about water boarding... It is a specific question. I am not

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in a position to judge whether it is effective or not. I cannot tell

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you if it is the only way to get information... It is not the

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question whether it is effective, it is the question whether it is

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morally justifiable. Let me break it into two pieces. There are

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people and have been through the process as part of its stake

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training in the military who will tell you that while it is harsh and

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difficult it leaves no lasting effects and does not rise to the

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level of torture. The United Nations says it is torture.

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have people on both sides. On the moral issue I would say this - if

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you have a genuine belief that a person is in possession of

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information that can save lives and if you don't use anything up to the

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limit of the law that you can to get that information an as a result

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people died - are you prepared to look into the eyes of the surviving

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family members and say "I could have saved your son or daughter,

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but I didn't want to do something unpleasant, therefore, I am sorry

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for your loss". So the moral judgement kasbah is in a consent is

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- yes. Up to the limit of the law. Even if some people think it is

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torture. There are some people who think plea-bargaining is torture

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and we plea-bargain in the United States. There is a legal limit. You

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don't want to go beyond that. Within that, if you have to use

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some tough methods it may be morally justified to save innocent

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lives. What about Guantanamo Bay, is that justified? And there is an

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elaborate legal regime that allows detainees to challenge their

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confinement in federal court. The physical facility - I have never

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seen it. As it has been described to me it is probably nicer than

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most federal prisons. From that standpoint I don't think there is a

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complete any longer.... There isn't a complete any longer? I don't

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think there is a sound basis for complaint. An awful lot of people,

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including the former British Attorney General, one of your close

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allies, does not agree with you at all.... Guantanamo Bay has been a

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recruiting ground for terrorism. is not clear to me that one ton and

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obey has recruited terrorists or that it has been described as that

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-- Guantanamo Bay. Look at what causes people to carry out

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terrorist attacks. There have been multiple attacks in Denmark. What

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did they do to deserve this? They had cartoons posted in a newspaper.

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The idea that when we used tough measures it is recruiting - that is

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not supported by facts. Let's move on to your involvement in the war

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on terror, as you have described it. You have left government and you a

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part of the private sector. You have been involved in representing,

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working for a company which has represented the body scanner

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manufacturers that are being used at airports. As a part of airline

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Just after the failed underwear bombing. In the United States, the

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Accounting Office said it remained unclear whether it be advanced

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imaging technology would have detected the weapon used in the

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December 2009 incident. Do you now think what you had to say about it

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was overstated? No. Sometimes they get it wrong. We looked at the

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issue in 2006, 2007 when we first confronted the possibility of

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people trying to conceal elements of a bomb in personal parts of

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people's body. The only way to find that was to look and see if there

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was a concealed area in an anatomically sensitive part of the

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body and that is scanning. It is still have used in the United

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States and the algorithms have improved. The only way to discover

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them would be too literally Pat everybody down, which I think

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people would find more unpalatable. A bipartisan think tank came up

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with a post-9/11 approach - they said that the scanners are not

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effective and raised privacy and health concerns that Homeland

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Security have not addressed. Something that is concealed on a

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person, not inserted in the body - there is a separate concern raised

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by people about the possibility of someone actually surgically

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inserting a bomb inside a body. I agree that body scanning would not

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catch that but that is a very small risk given it would be very

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difficult to find people happy to engage in that. It would be

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mystifying as to why the German government in the last week has

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decided the technology does not work, it has abandoned the pilot.

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It studied the results from 800,000 passengers getting through, I think

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it was ham buried in airport. -- Hamburg airport. I am relying on

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what the government has told me and what has been said publicly and my

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understanding is that it adds real value and they say works. Has -- I

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have no financial interest. That is disputed by a Republican

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congressman who said there is no evidence there is more security but

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the former homeland security chief, Michael Chertoff, made money by

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hawking this. That is a false statement. We represented a company

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that made the scammers but -- that made the scanners. I have been

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completely consistent. Do not think more broadly, since leaving

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government you sit on the board of a company that lobbiesat lobbiest

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on behalf of Defence and Security firms. It is a law firm. It lobbies

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the government. I practise on behalf of a lawyer. You work for a

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company that advises government on defence issues. I am on the board

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of the company. Do you think it is right for you to have moved so

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quickly from government into private industry in this way?

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could have let myself be unemployed. You could have been a lawyer.

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Apparently you found my work as a lawyer and appealing. If you are

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working on specific issues related to your past job... Let us be clear.

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I do not lobbied the US government. I do not work on matters, specific

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matters that I worked on in the government. I do use my expertise

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in the law and security to work with companies in that field, as

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most people do. Frankly, it makes sense. To have people without

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expertise would be for it. It is about public service and a profit.

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I am not insinuating anything but an asking, is it not slightly

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unseemly to go quickly, within days from being a very senior member of

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the government to working in the private sector on those issues?

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took some time off and went about the process of opening a therm and

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did that about four, five months after I left. -- a firm. President

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Obama made sure that every executive would sign a document

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saying they would not work in a specific area related to regulation

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and contract. That is the principle I am here to. But you are working

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on issues pertaining to what you did before. I do not welcome

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particular matters with relation to specific parties that I worked for

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in the government. Let me take you on to Libya. You wrote in the

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Washington Post earlier this year that you seem to very doubtful as

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to the wisdom of getting involved in Libya. Is that an opinion he is

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-- in you is still hold? That is not entirely correct. I said that

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we need to think hard about the plan that the rebels wanted.

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Looking back at Iraq, winning the war and toppling Saddam Hussein was

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the easy part. We all want to get rid of Gaddafi but do not know how

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it happens after that. We will put in a plan to move on to a better

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outcome for the people. You would now concede that the post-war

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planning in Iraq was a disaster? believe it was very flawed.

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were part of a government... I came in 2005. They must have been

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discussions. I do not know if assigning blame... You must have

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views on where it went wrong. an over-estimation of the intrinsic

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capability of some of the people in Iraq who were in contact with the

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United States to be able to take control and run the government as

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an effective democratic state. There was an underestimate in

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requirements of society. Making sure you have institutions capable

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of promoting democracy. It turns out that that is a lot harder than

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the people went into the war anticipate. What should the US be

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doing to try to buttress a fledgling democracy? There has been

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a lot of thought about how to resist the new government. I do not

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think we should force ourselves on them but we should have a plan for

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what we might be able to offer them in terms of making the transition

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from a dysfunctional state into what we hope will be a free and

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democratic state. What if you sense that people who you think I am not

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for American power bec power bec powerful. What is clear is that the

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outcome is not certain. The war on terror is yet to finish, we have no

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idea where it will end and yet here is a major oil-producing state

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which, I suppose, could fall into the hands of Islamists. We simply

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do not know. Equally, you began this interview by talking about how

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serious the prosecution of the war on terror continues to be and how

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you need to wage the war on all fronts. While asserting the need

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for the beer to be a d to be a dnd to toand offer help to seek

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that help, at the same time you are saying that the war on terror means

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we need to tanned down the flames were of a date erupt -- wherever

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they your -- erupt, tamp the flames. We have to see what the new

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government will be like. What happens to the weapons? The other

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kinds of weapons which have been role... We have to see what the

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outcome is. You have to -- you could have Turkey in or Afghanistan.

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Michael Chertoff, thank you for The week has got off to a pretty

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torrid start in many parts of the British Isles. Wednesday, for many

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of us, will start to calm down. Plenty of dry weather around. The

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wind has not gone away but is wind has not gone away but is

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becoming confined to the north- eastern corner of Scotland. At the

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opposite end of the country, it starts off fine and dry. There will

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be a change for Northern Ireland and it will be welcome because it

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starts off miserably. So too the south-west of Scotland. An area of

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cloud, wind and rain across Scotland. The eastern side of the

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Pennines is faring pretty nicely. Further west, pretty cloudy. Across

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much of the south-eastern quarter, along the south coast, a lot of

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sunshine around. It will eventually do something for the temperatures.

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A little bit of cloud in the south- west may generate one or two

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showers. The changes - the wind will freshen up, 50-60mph. The

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temperatures in the south of Scotland, north of England, north

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of Northern Ireland will respond to the sunshine. The southern counties

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are in for a pretty decent day. The across the north-east of Scotland,

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as an area of high pressure drifts in inwest. On Thursday, the

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wind will calm down and it might even generate mist and fog. There

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will be fine weather around and the temperatures responding. Fine

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weather. 17, 18 degrees quite widely through southern Scotland

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and Northern Ireland. There is the high pressurgh pressuror Thursday.

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It is drifting off to the near Continent just as we're getting to

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