Lord Patten, Chairman, BBC Trust HARDtalk


Lord Patten, Chairman, BBC Trust

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Lord Patten, welcome to HARDtalk. On taking over as chairman of the

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BBC Trust you said, the BBC is the best broadcasting organisation in

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the world. A big claim. Are you sure it is true? Yes, it is what

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friends in other countries tell me. Many of them get all their news

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from the BBC. I read an interview with Mrs David Bowie the other day.

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She said, my husband never believes anything until he sees it on the

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BBC. We should not be complacent, smug, arrogant. At its best, the

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BBC is as good as it gets. Before we go any further, you use a

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collective we about the BBC. Do you see yourself as an insider, an

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integral part of the BBC? I see myself as part of the governance of

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the BBC. There is a completely ridiculous argument about roles. Am

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I a cheerleader or am I a regulator? But independence is

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important. Are you independent of the BBC? No, but the BBC is

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independent of the Government. If the BBC does things well it is

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reasonable for me to chair. If there are mistakes with editorial

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guidelines it is for us to sort them out. You say you talk to

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people all around the world who believe that the BBC is the best

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international broadcaster. But let's look at the present and

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future. Last year the government froze the licence fee. It is seen

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by many people as a tax on owning a television. It is now frozen. The

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BBC has to make cuts of up to 20%. That is because it is on a frozen

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licence fee. It has to take on more responsibilities like the World

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Service. Television all round the world, it has got to take on

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financial responsibilities for the Welsh television service. It has

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got extra responsibilities. But 20% budget cuts. That will do serious

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damage to the quality of output? hope it will not do serious damage.

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At present we're talking to the executives - we're talking about

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how we can accommodate the BBC with a budget less than we would like to

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spend but we're talking about the BBC running for the next five years

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on �3.5 billion every year plus the income it can raise from commercial

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activities. We should be able to run a damn good public broadcaster

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on �3.5 billion every year, which we do not have to raise ourselves.

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It comes from licence-fee payers. So while I do not doubt that we

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have to make some painful choices - and first of all everybody is

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having to in the UK and around the world because of the financial

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crisis - I hope that many of the choices will be around efficiency.

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Then you talk about a damn good broadcaster making difficult

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choices, it gives down to the basic question: What should the BBC be

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doing? Where are the areas where it should not necessarily be? Much as

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I respect you, I'm not going to make announcements about budget

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choices now. But let me give you an example. It is increasingly tough

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for a public service broadcaster to compete for sports rights with

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subscription television, for example. That is started to be the

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case in the United States and that has started to be the case here now.

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We do a lot of smaller sports. We do Wimbledon and Six Nations and we

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have been doing Formula One exclusively. We have not been able

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to afford that so we have had to pare back Formula One and share it

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with Sky. What other sports do you see going? I hope there will be no

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others. I hope that that choice - and it was a painful choice,

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everyone who loves motor racing was cross with us because we do it so

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well - but we will still be doing motor racing. It will not be

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exclusive anymore. So you think other sports will stay as a result

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of that? I would hope so. There are still sports that are of some

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importance, like Six Nations. Match Of The Day. How could you get

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through a Saturday evening without that and Strictly Come Dancing?

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Strictly Come Dancing is an interesting one. It is a very

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popular entertainment programme. BBC runs all sorts of reality

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television programmes. Some of them are high-gloss entertainment comes

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some less so. It does quiz programmes, and cooking, property.

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All of these are shows that are very similar, if not equivalent, to

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shows on commercial networks. Why does the BBC need to do that?

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should educate and inform but also entertain. That is the trendy. --

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the Trinity. That was said by an American radio pioneer. That is

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what we have tried to do over the years. But when the squeeze is on

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is it not important to make choices? Surely one choice is to

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say, where we are doing things that are duplicated in the commercial

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sector, we're not offering anything unique there. You cannot run a

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national service paid for by everybody in the country just to

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satisfy me. I am rather curious because I do not watch EastEnders

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but people who do watch it will often go on to watch another

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programme which has, how can I put it, the ambition of educating and

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informing. If you get 5 million or more people watching a drama at 9pm

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in the evening you get a much larger audience for the 10pm news.

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If you get a small audience, 3 million, fewer people watch the

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news. It is called hammocking, apparently. You have successfully

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avoided telling me what you want to be cut. This is fear it gets

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difficult. Savings have to be made. The last man who sat in your chair,

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he said the BBC must avoid imposing universal cuts on everything. He

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said: In the end, you said, you have to make some big choices.

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hope we will be able to avoid cutting whole services. Amputation

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for the sake of it, in order to show one has been filled with

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testosterone, does not seem to me to be central. But if you do not

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amputate, the general body is diminished? Isn't that the point?

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hope we will be able to continue to run a very good service on radio

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and television but we will not be able to produce all the luxuries

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which we have been able to manage in the past. We will have to focus

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on our core and most valuable services. We will have to focus on

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our Corps and most valuable services: Children, drama, news,

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factual programmes. Those are things we will have do spend money

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on. We will not be able to spend as much money on sport and, I suspect,

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entertainment. What are the luxuries you will be able to do

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away with? That is something you will discover in October when you

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can interview one of my colleagues. We are in a process at the moment

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of discussing the final options we have to make, the final choices. I

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think we will be able to demonstrate at the end of this

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process there is a change about driving to greater efficiency and

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productivity and we will have to focus more clearly on our strengths.

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Just to finish this theme, is it safe to assume that some of the

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largest celebrities will have to be thanked and sent elsewhere? In has

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already been happening. We have heard from Jonathan Ross about his

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sadness at having to claim his millions from elsewhere. But there

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are 14 stars who are paid millions every year. Will they have to go?

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want to reassure the audience that does not include you. Doubtless it

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should do! We will have to cut down on talent costs. First we will

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reveal the figures. Not every individual because you get into

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privacy but we cannot pay as much for people. We have shown overall

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figures and made it clear we cannot pay as much for people. It is part

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of our job at the BBC to bring on talent. If they want to go

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elsewhere, fine. What people find is that they go off to other

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channels for money but nobody watches them. The international

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role of the BBC. You say it is important but why is it as

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important when you go to countries like India and Turkey and you

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switch the television on and there is a host of national and

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international news providers, why is it as important as it was?

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Because people think BBC News tells what is going on. Unfortunately

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many of the broadcasters in other countries have a news agenda which

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is biased or corrupted by government control or by commercial

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interests. If it is that important how do you feel about the fact that

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in the last 12 months the World Service in radio has frankly been

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very badly hit by a round of cuts? Five Language Services have been

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closed down and seven others have gone online with no radio element.

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Some of those services include Russian, Mandarin, Spanish for Cuba.

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The problem with Mandarin is that it was effectively blocked and

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there is no point in going on with it. It is easier for the Chinese to

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block the internet. If you talk to a group of Chinese students about

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firewalls they give you an old- fashioned answer. Would I have

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preferred it if we had been given responsibility for the World

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Service without an initial budget cut? Of course but everybody has

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had to face up to large budget cuts because of the extent of the

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deficit. You have got the option, because the BBC will take over the

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funding, you have a guarantee that some of these services will be

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restored and new money will be put into World Service. We have already

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found some new money for some of these services. For example I felt

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conflicted about cutting back on the Hindi short-wave service. It is

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old technology but if you are one of the 10 million Indian peasant

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farmers with no electricity it is rather important. I was keen we

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should continue with our ability to cover what is happening in the

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Middle East and we have restored money, some of it coming from the

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Foreign office and some of it You talk about truth-telling and

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why that is important. Let me turn to television. BBC World News is

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commercially funded. Too little. The budgets are tight. It has a

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budget of �63 million. Because of state aims, we have to be careful

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about its commercial funding. It has gone up by �10 million over the

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last year. But one of the areas, I am not just saying it because I am

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on your programme...one of the areas where we want to spend more

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money is on World news. One recent case that has raised serious

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concerns is a private company, FBC, making programmes for the BBC.

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Those programmes have included a focus on Malaysia. FBC, according

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to the Independent, has received substantial money to do corporate

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strategic work on behalf of the Malaysian government. The BBC says

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it was not aware of that. It says it should have been. Does that

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raise serious questions about the systems the BBC uses? It raises

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serious questions about the importance of sticking to the

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editorial guidelines, which are clear on the case you have

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mentioned. You should not get into this smudgy, blurry area where you

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cannot be certain that commercial interests have not affected the way

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a story is covered. In this case, there was a breach of editorial

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guidelines. The Trust has made that clear it should not have happened.

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One of the reasons that the Trust exists is, like any good board, to

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stop things like that happening. Does it mean we cannot possibly

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produce a really good and independent world news with

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commercial income? It doesn't. I want to see us providing more

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commercial income through co- production and through other BBC

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channels, and through proceeds from Worldwide. FBC say that at no time

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the programmes were influenced by the funding. But the point is, the

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FBC programmes have been suspended. It seems there is a real concern

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that they are not adequate. The checks and balances. What we are

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clear about is the guidelines should be followed. If there is any

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question of people raising doubts about the accuracy of a piece of

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television, it is a cause for concern and we will stop. I wonder

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whether there is a bigger question from this. The BBC, because budgets

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are tight, the BBC is desperate to find as many creative ways to draw

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money as it can. There's BBC Worldwide... But you can do it

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without undermining the reputation of the BBC. That is an interesting

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assurance. Are you sure that's always true? Am I sure we will

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never make a mistake? Of course not. Am I sure we should never be able

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to put in place guidelines which, if followed, will stop us making a

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mistake? Yes. This is about the BBC brand as a whole. Which is really

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important. Of course. As it has expanded into buying Lonely Planet

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and Top Gear and making big money from top magazines, and buying

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other companies, do you think the BBC is in danger of becoming too

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big and the commercialism... ..wagging the dog and tail metaphor.

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Will it take over? What is clear to me is that Worldwide has been

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incredibly successful and should fo fo BBC's core activities.

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There are some things Worldwide got into, like magazines, which we

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should have disposed of, and they have. They've sold them off.

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Worldwide should try to place themselves at the heart of the

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creative content in this country. I think it should work in partnership

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with independent producers to sell to the rest of the world.

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profit matters in that instance. Commercial nous matters. I want to

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shift. When you are thinking about bringing the attitudes of the

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marketplace into the BBC, I do start thinking about pay. I think

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about what you said, which is, the BBC has paid executives salaries as

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if they work at Barclays. Do you think that, your word, toxic

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problem has gone away? I have tried to deal with it quickly and

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decisively. Principally, I have done it by getting the agreement of

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the executives to be the first organisation to implement the

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proposals, the main proposals, on public service pay which were

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advocated by the distinguished economist Will Hutton. But that's...

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The basic proposal is you cap the highest salary to the medium pay.

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You stop a big gap opening between what the medium is paid and what

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the seniors are paid. The director general, chief executive, Mark

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Thomson, earnt �779,000 last year. Admittedly down on the year before

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but still so far beyond the median salary inside the BBC. It busts

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your desire. If there is another director-general during my time at

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the Trust, they will not be paid that much. What I have made

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absolutely clear is we will be bearing down on the cap on

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executive pay to reduce that ratio with median pay. We're also...

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I stop you there? It is extraordinary that you as the

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chairman of the BBC Trust are telling me the chief executive is

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overpaid? It is not extraordinary for me to say I think all BBC staff

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have to take account of the fact the BBC is a public sector

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organisation. To say what I've said in the past, you cannot on the one

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hand talk about the public service ethos and think you can be paid

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what you might be paid if you worked in the financial services

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sector. To be clear, Mark Thomson and other long-serving executives

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were paid too much money. I am sure they were worth every penny. But

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they will not be paid as much in the future. To end on this thought,

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in 2016 the BBC's charter will be reviewed by the Government. What

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will the BBC look like then? I hope when it's reviewd it will still be

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looked at as an organisation that provides a public space for

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national conversation, respected around the world for the imbalance

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and accuracy of reporting, and I hope it will continue to produce

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programmes which understand the average man or woman is better than

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the average. Will it be much smaller? It will not be as big as

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it would have been if we did not have these cuts. It will still be,

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I think, the best public service broadcaster in the world and one of

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the three or four largest employers of journalists. We have to leave it

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there, thank you for joining us. For many, a different day today

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compared to yesterday. More cloud for northern and western areas.

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Some of that rain, heavy. You can see the picture. Lots of cloud,

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showers or central areas of the UK. Persistent in the wet. On the

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upside, it will not be as cold. A lot of rain for Northern Ireland,

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the rain will move into western parts of Scotland. A generally

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cloudy start to the day. The far north of Scotland should be quite

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bright. Temperatures in Lerwick of about six degrees. More cloud in

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northern parts of England. Outbreaks of rain. More showers in

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the Home Counties. But the far south of England, a fairly sunny

:24:49.:24:59.
:24:59.:25:04.

start to the day. Dry for many in the far west. Cloudy skies.

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Persistent rain for Scotland. This band of rain will move its way from

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west to east. Some of it will be on the heavy side, especially the

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northern parts of England, southeast Scotland. The far south-

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east of England, the southern coast, not a bad day. Some sunshine and

:25:24.:25:29.

temperatures in London about 22 degrees but not as warm elsewhere.

:25:29.:25:34.

Cooler elsewhere. Cloud and rain. That rain will persist across

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Scotland, into north-eto north-ed. It all comes from this area of low

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pressure. With it, these isobars are tightly packed. As we go into

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the weekend, some blustery winds from the north-west. With it,

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showers will be especially heavy in the western and northern areas

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during Saturday. We will all see showers during the day. More for

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the west. For the Great North Run, in Newcastle, there could be a few

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showers. Especially during the run itself. Coverage of that on BBC One.

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Most of the showers confined to eastern areas. Further west, a dry

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