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Lord Patten, welcome to HARDtalk. On taking over as chairman of the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
BBC Trust you said, the BBC is the best broadcasting organisation in | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
the world. A big claim. Are you sure it is true? Yes, it is what | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
friends in other countries tell me. Many of them get all their news | :00:23. | :00:31. | |
from the BBC. I read an interview with Mrs David Bowie the other day. | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
She said, my husband never believes anything until he sees it on the | :00:35. | :00:45. | |
:00:45. | :00:52. | ||
BBC. We should not be complacent, smug, arrogant. At its best, the | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
BBC is as good as it gets. Before we go any further, you use a | :01:00. | :01:07. | |
collective we about the BBC. Do you see yourself as an insider, an | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
integral part of the BBC? I see myself as part of the governance of | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
the BBC. There is a completely ridiculous argument about roles. Am | :01:19. | :01:28. | |
I a cheerleader or am I a regulator? But independence is | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
important. Are you independent of the BBC? No, but the BBC is | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
independent of the Government. If the BBC does things well it is | :01:35. | :01:45. | |
:01:45. | :01:47. | ||
reasonable for me to chair. If there are mistakes with editorial | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
guidelines it is for us to sort them out. You say you talk to | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
people all around the world who believe that the BBC is the best | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
international broadcaster. But let's look at the present and | :01:57. | :02:07. | |
:02:07. | :02:08. | ||
future. Last year the government froze the licence fee. It is seen | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
by many people as a tax on owning a television. It is now frozen. The | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
BBC has to make cuts of up to 20%. That is because it is on a frozen | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
licence fee. It has to take on more responsibilities like the World | :02:30. | :02:39. | |
Service. Television all round the world, it has got to take on | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
financial responsibilities for the Welsh television service. It has | :02:44. | :02:52. | |
got extra responsibilities. But 20% budget cuts. That will do serious | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
damage to the quality of output? hope it will not do serious damage. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
At present we're talking to the executives - we're talking about | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
how we can accommodate the BBC with a budget less than we would like to | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
spend but we're talking about the BBC running for the next five years | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
on �3.5 billion every year plus the income it can raise from commercial | :03:14. | :03:24. | |
:03:24. | :03:35. | ||
activities. We should be able to run a damn good public broadcaster | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
on �3.5 billion every year, which we do not have to raise ourselves. | :03:38. | :03:47. | |
It comes from licence-fee payers. So while I do not doubt that we | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
have to make some painful choices - and first of all everybody is | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
having to in the UK and around the world because of the financial | :03:55. | :04:05. | |
:04:05. | :04:13. | ||
crisis - I hope that many of the choices will be around efficiency. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Then you talk about a damn good broadcaster making difficult | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
choices, it gives down to the basic question: What should the BBC be | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
doing? Where are the areas where it should not necessarily be? Much as | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
I respect you, I'm not going to make announcements about budget | :04:30. | :04:38. | |
choices now. But let me give you an example. It is increasingly tough | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
for a public service broadcaster to compete for sports rights with | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
subscription television, for example. That is started to be the | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
case in the United States and that has started to be the case here now. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
We do a lot of smaller sports. We do Wimbledon and Six Nations and we | :04:55. | :05:05. | |
:05:05. | :05:10. | ||
have been doing Formula One exclusively. We have not been able | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
to afford that so we have had to pare back Formula One and share it | :05:14. | :05:24. | |
:05:24. | :05:29. | ||
with Sky. What other sports do you see going? I hope there will be no | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
others. I hope that that choice - and it was a painful choice, | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
everyone who loves motor racing was cross with us because we do it so | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
well - but we will still be doing motor racing. It will not be | :05:41. | :05:50. | |
exclusive anymore. So you think other sports will stay as a result | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
of that? I would hope so. There are still sports that are of some | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
importance, like Six Nations. Match Of The Day. How could you get | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
through a Saturday evening without that and Strictly Come Dancing? | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Strictly Come Dancing is an interesting one. It is a very | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
popular entertainment programme. BBC runs all sorts of reality | :06:10. | :06:18. | |
television programmes. Some of them are high-gloss entertainment comes | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
some less so. It does quiz programmes, and cooking, property. | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
All of these are shows that are very similar, if not equivalent, to | :06:25. | :06:35. | |
:06:35. | :06:38. | ||
shows on commercial networks. Why does the BBC need to do that? | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
should educate and inform but also entertain. That is the trendy. -- | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
the Trinity. That was said by an American radio pioneer. That is | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
what we have tried to do over the years. But when the squeeze is on | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
is it not important to make choices? Surely one choice is to | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
say, where we are doing things that are duplicated in the commercial | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
sector, we're not offering anything unique there. You cannot run a | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
national service paid for by everybody in the country just to | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
satisfy me. I am rather curious because I do not watch EastEnders | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
but people who do watch it will often go on to watch another | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
programme which has, how can I put it, the ambition of educating and | :07:23. | :07:33. | |
:07:33. | :07:40. | ||
informing. If you get 5 million or more people watching a drama at 9pm | :07:40. | :07:50. | |
:07:50. | :07:50. | ||
in the evening you get a much larger audience for the 10pm news. | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
If you get a small audience, 3 million, fewer people watch the | :07:54. | :08:02. | |
news. It is called hammocking, apparently. You have successfully | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
avoided telling me what you want to be cut. This is fear it gets | :08:07. | :08:16. | |
difficult. Savings have to be made. The last man who sat in your chair, | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
he said the BBC must avoid imposing universal cuts on everything. He | :08:22. | :08:30. | |
said: In the end, you said, you have to make some big choices. | :08:30. | :08:38. | |
hope we will be able to avoid cutting whole services. Amputation | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
for the sake of it, in order to show one has been filled with | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
testosterone, does not seem to me to be central. But if you do not | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
amputate, the general body is diminished? Isn't that the point? | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
hope we will be able to continue to run a very good service on radio | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
and television but we will not be able to produce all the luxuries | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
which we have been able to manage in the past. We will have to focus | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
on our core and most valuable services. We will have to focus on | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
our Corps and most valuable services: Children, drama, news, | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
factual programmes. Those are things we will have do spend money | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
on. We will not be able to spend as much money on sport and, I suspect, | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
entertainment. What are the luxuries you will be able to do | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
away with? That is something you will discover in October when you | :09:32. | :09:40. | |
can interview one of my colleagues. We are in a process at the moment | :09:40. | :09:50. | |
:09:50. | :09:55. | ||
of discussing the final options we have to make, the final choices. I | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
think we will be able to demonstrate at the end of this | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
process there is a change about driving to greater efficiency and | :10:02. | :10:12. | |
:10:12. | :10:13. | ||
productivity and we will have to focus more clearly on our strengths. | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
Just to finish this theme, is it safe to assume that some of the | :10:17. | :10:26. | |
largest celebrities will have to be thanked and sent elsewhere? In has | :10:26. | :10:35. | |
already been happening. We have heard from Jonathan Ross about his | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
sadness at having to claim his millions from elsewhere. But there | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
are 14 stars who are paid millions every year. Will they have to go? | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
want to reassure the audience that does not include you. Doubtless it | :10:53. | :11:02. | |
should do! We will have to cut down on talent costs. First we will | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
reveal the figures. Not every individual because you get into | :11:07. | :11:17. | |
:11:17. | :11:17. | ||
privacy but we cannot pay as much for people. We have shown overall | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
figures and made it clear we cannot pay as much for people. It is part | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
of our job at the BBC to bring on talent. If they want to go | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
elsewhere, fine. What people find is that they go off to other | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
channels for money but nobody watches them. The international | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
role of the BBC. You say it is important but why is it as | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
important when you go to countries like India and Turkey and you | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
switch the television on and there is a host of national and | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
international news providers, why is it as important as it was? | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
Because people think BBC News tells what is going on. Unfortunately | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
many of the broadcasters in other countries have a news agenda which | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
is biased or corrupted by government control or by commercial | :11:56. | :12:06. | |
:12:06. | :12:40. | ||
interests. If it is that important how do you feel about the fact that | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
in the last 12 months the World Service in radio has frankly been | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
very badly hit by a round of cuts? Five Language Services have been | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
closed down and seven others have gone online with no radio element. | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
Some of those services include Russian, Mandarin, Spanish for Cuba. | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
The problem with Mandarin is that it was effectively blocked and | :13:00. | :13:10. | |
:13:10. | :13:16. | ||
there is no point in going on with it. It is easier for the Chinese to | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
block the internet. If you talk to a group of Chinese students about | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
firewalls they give you an old- fashioned answer. Would I have | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
preferred it if we had been given responsibility for the World | :13:28. | :13:38. | |
:13:38. | :13:38. | ||
Service without an initial budget cut? Of course but everybody has | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
had to face up to large budget cuts because of the extent of the | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
:13:52. | :13:53. | ||
deficit. You have got the option, because the BBC will take over the | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
funding, you have a guarantee that some of these services will be | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
restored and new money will be put into World Service. We have already | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
found some new money for some of these services. For example I felt | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
conflicted about cutting back on the Hindi short-wave service. It is | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
old technology but if you are one of the 10 million Indian peasant | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
farmers with no electricity it is rather important. I was keen we | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
should continue with our ability to cover what is happening in the | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
Middle East and we have restored money, some of it coming from the | :14:25. | :14:35. | |
:14:35. | :14:40. | ||
Foreign office and some of it You talk about truth-telling and | :14:40. | :14:50. | |
:14:50. | :14:55. | ||
why that is important. Let me turn to television. BBC World News is | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
commercially funded. Too little. The budgets are tight. It has a | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
budget of �63 million. Because of state aims, we have to be careful | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
about its commercial funding. It has gone up by �10 million over the | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
:15:20. | :15:24. | ||
last year. But one of the areas, I am not just saying it because I am | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
on your programme...one of the areas where we want to spend more | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
money is on World news. One recent case that has raised serious | :15:32. | :15:42. | |
:15:42. | :15:46. | ||
concerns is a private company, FBC, making programmes for the BBC. | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
Those programmes have included a focus on Malaysia. FBC, according | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
to the Independent, has received substantial money to do corporate | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
strategic work on behalf of the Malaysian government. The BBC says | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
it was not aware of that. It says it should have been. Does that | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
raise serious questions about the systems the BBC uses? It raises | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
serious questions about the importance of sticking to the | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
editorial guidelines, which are clear on the case you have | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
mentioned. You should not get into this smudgy, blurry area where you | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
cannot be certain that commercial interests have not affected the way | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
a story is covered. In this case, there was a breach of editorial | :16:36. | :16:46. | |
:16:46. | :16:51. | ||
guidelines. The Trust has made that clear it should not have happened. | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
One of the reasons that the Trust exists is, like any good board, to | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
stop things like that happening. Does it mean we cannot possibly | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
produce a really good and independent world news with | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
commercial income? It doesn't. I want to see us providing more | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
commercial income through co- production and through other BBC | :17:06. | :17:16. | |
:17:16. | :17:21. | ||
channels, and through proceeds from Worldwide. FBC say that at no time | :17:21. | :17:29. | |
the programmes were influenced by the funding. But the point is, the | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
FBC programmes have been suspended. It seems there is a real concern | :17:35. | :17:44. | |
that they are not adequate. The checks and balances. What we are | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
clear about is the guidelines should be followed. If there is any | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
question of people raising doubts about the accuracy of a piece of | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
television, it is a cause for concern and we will stop. I wonder | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
whether there is a bigger question from this. The BBC, because budgets | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
are tight, the BBC is desperate to find as many creative ways to draw | :18:06. | :18:15. | |
money as it can. There's BBC Worldwide... But you can do it | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
without undermining the reputation of the BBC. That is an interesting | :18:18. | :18:25. | |
assurance. Are you sure that's always true? Am I sure we will | :18:25. | :18:35. | |
:18:35. | :18:35. | ||
never make a mistake? Of course not. Am I sure we should never be able | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
to put in place guidelines which, if followed, will stop us making a | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
mistake? Yes. This is about the BBC brand as a whole. Which is really | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
important. Of course. As it has expanded into buying Lonely Planet | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
and Top Gear and making big money from top magazines, and buying | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
other companies, do you think the BBC is in danger of becoming too | :18:58. | :19:08. | |
big and the commercialism... ..wagging the dog and tail metaphor. | :19:08. | :19:17. | |
Will it take over? What is clear to me is that Worldwide has been | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
incredibly successful and should fo fo BBC's core activities. | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
There are some things Worldwide got into, like magazines, which we | :19:23. | :19:33. | |
:19:33. | :19:35. | ||
should have disposed of, and they have. They've sold them off. | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
Worldwide should try to place themselves at the heart of the | :19:38. | :19:47. | |
creative content in this country. I think it should work in partnership | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
with independent producers to sell to the rest of the world. | :19:53. | :20:01. | |
profit matters in that instance. Commercial nous matters. I want to | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
shift. When you are thinking about bringing the attitudes of the | :20:05. | :20:13. | |
marketplace into the BBC, I do start thinking about pay. I think | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
about what you said, which is, the BBC has paid executives salaries as | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
if they work at Barclays. Do you think that, your word, toxic | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
problem has gone away? I have tried to deal with it quickly and | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
decisively. Principally, I have done it by getting the agreement of | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
the executives to be the first organisation to implement the | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
proposals, the main proposals, on public service pay which were | :20:37. | :20:47. | |
:20:47. | :20:50. | ||
advocated by the distinguished economist Will Hutton. But that's... | :20:50. | :20:57. | |
The basic proposal is you cap the highest salary to the medium pay. | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
You stop a big gap opening between what the medium is paid and what | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
the seniors are paid. The director general, chief executive, Mark | :21:05. | :21:15. | |
:21:15. | :21:19. | ||
Thomson, earnt �779,000 last year. Admittedly down on the year before | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
but still so far beyond the median salary inside the BBC. It busts | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
your desire. If there is another director-general during my time at | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the Trust, they will not be paid that much. What I have made | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
absolutely clear is we will be bearing down on the cap on | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
executive pay to reduce that ratio with median pay. We're also... | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
I stop you there? It is extraordinary that you as the | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
chairman of the BBC Trust are telling me the chief executive is | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
overpaid? It is not extraordinary for me to say I think all BBC staff | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
have to take account of the fact the BBC is a public sector | :22:00. | :22:10. | |
:22:10. | :22:20. | ||
organisation. To say what I've said in the past, you cannot on the one | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
hand talk about the public service ethos and think you can be paid | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
what you might be paid if you worked in the financial services | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
sector. To be clear, Mark Thomson and other long-serving executives | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
were paid too much money. I am sure they were worth every penny. But | :22:35. | :22:43. | |
they will not be paid as much in the future. To end on this thought, | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
in 2016 the BBC's charter will be reviewed by the Government. What | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
will the BBC look like then? I hope when it's reviewd it will still be | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
looked at as an organisation that provides a public space for | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
national conversation, respected around the world for the imbalance | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
and accuracy of reporting, and I hope it will continue to produce | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
programmes which understand the average man or woman is better than | :23:05. | :23:15. | |
:23:15. | :23:22. | ||
the average. Will it be much smaller? It will not be as big as | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
it would have been if we did not have these cuts. It will still be, | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
I think, the best public service broadcaster in the world and one of | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
the three or four largest employers of journalists. We have to leave it | :23:37. | :23:47. | |
:23:47. | :23:58. | ||
there, thank you for joining us. For many, a different day today | :23:58. | :24:08. | |
:24:08. | :24:09. | ||
compared to yesterday. More cloud for northern and western areas. | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
Some of that rain, heavy. You can see the picture. Lots of cloud, | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
showers or central areas of the UK. Persistent in the wet. On the | :24:20. | :24:28. | |
upside, it will not be as cold. A lot of rain for Northern Ireland, | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
the rain will move into western parts of Scotland. A generally | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
cloudy start to the day. The far north of Scotland should be quite | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
bright. Temperatures in Lerwick of about six degrees. More cloud in | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
northern parts of England. Outbreaks of rain. More showers in | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
the Home Counties. But the far south of England, a fairly sunny | :24:49. | :24:59. | |
:24:59. | :25:04. | ||
start to the day. Dry for many in the far west. Cloudy skies. | :25:04. | :25:13. | |
Persistent rain for Scotland. This band of rain will move its way from | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
west to east. Some of it will be on the heavy side, especially the | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
northern parts of England, southeast Scotland. The far south- | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
east of England, the southern coast, not a bad day. Some sunshine and | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
temperatures in London about 22 degrees but not as warm elsewhere. | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
Cooler elsewhere. Cloud and rain. That rain will persist across | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
Scotland, into north-eto north-ed. It all comes from this area of low | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
pressure. With it, these isobars are tightly packed. As we go into | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
the weekend, some blustery winds from the north-west. With it, | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
showers will be especially heavy in the western and northern areas | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
during Saturday. We will all see showers during the day. More for | :26:00. | :26:08. | |
the west. For the Great North Run, in Newcastle, there could be a few | :26:08. | :26:15. | |
showers. Especially during the run itself. Coverage of that on BBC One. | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
Most of the showers confined to eastern areas. Further west, a dry | :26:19. | :26:24. |