Browse content similar to Professor Carl Djerassi, co-inventor of the contraceptive pill. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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to help families. You can see his beach live here on BBC News. That's | :00:03. | :00:11. | |
it from me for nine at -- -- that's it for me for now. | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
It is time the HARDtalk. My guest today was instrumental in the | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
development of a revolutionary new drug which has since transformed | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
cow was women's lives, the oral contraceptive pill. Carl Djerassi's | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
side to victory made him a fortune but also prompted ethical and moral | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
questions which he has addressed in a series of novels and plays. How | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
far should we allow science to redefine the process of | :00:38. | :00:48. | |
:00:48. | :01:12. | ||
Carl Djerassi, welcome to HARDtalk. Let me begin by taking you back to | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
the late 1940s and early 1950s. You were elan scientist working in a | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
laboratory on hormones. I wonder if at that time you appreciated the | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
significance of what you were working on. I am a chemist, not a | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
biologist. I was aware of the chemical significance. The answer | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
is no. Nobody could have. 11 years later after we synthesised it in | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
1951 it was introduced on the market. Neither the companies nor | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
the physician's nor the public expected it. We did not realise how | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
quickly it would be used. Within two years about 2 million women in | :02:00. | :02:10. | |
:02:10. | :02:11. | ||
the US were using it. It was not really a campaign. At that time | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
birth control, contraception was not even on the radar of | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
pharmaceutical companies or in the public. It was just after the war. | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
People wanted to have children rather than the other way round. | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
be very basic about it, the idea of the contraceptive pill and then, as | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
it was commercially developed through the 1950s and 60s, was to | :02:37. | :02:47. | |
:02:47. | :02:52. | ||
stop women ovulating. Not quite. In 1957 it was allowed for infertility | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
and menstrual irregularities. Some women were not producing enough | :02:57. | :03:06. | |
progesterone. It is also necessary for the proper maintenance for the | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
uterus environment for the foetus to develop. If women do not produce | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
enough progesterone after they are pregnant they will suffer at an | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
abortion. Treatment of infertility and mental disorder were the uses. | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
That was 1957. Only three years later was it approve the | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
contraception. And when that happened it was because that was | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
the effect it had. Stopping of elation. I just wonder whether, as | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
you saw your initial breakthroughs turn into the reality of a pill | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
which could be taken by a woman to control her fidelity in a new way, | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
a guaranteed way, whether you were delighted. -- control her fertility. | :03:52. | :04:02. | |
:04:02. | :04:08. | ||
Yes. I think it was the right time. It was a man in the 1920s who | :04:08. | :04:16. | |
predicted all of this. He wrote an extraordinary book in 1931 and then | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
he committed suicide in 1932 because of the position of the | :04:20. | :04:30. | |
:04:30. | :04:38. | ||
Conservative circles and the church at that time. He talked about the | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
temporary of women. The 1960s were the decade of the rock'n'roll, | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
hippy culture. It was the real flowering of the women's movement. | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
It was at a time when abortion was illegal. The women's movement was | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
different from the other movements. It involved a certain amount of | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
sexual liberation. Certainly not the sort of Victorian behaviour | :05:09. | :05:19. | |
that people encouraged or pretended to follow. In a way it was | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
divorcing sexuality and the sexual act from procreation. Not yet. That | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
is the situation now. At that time it was simply having sex without | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
having to worry about the consequences. Remember it was | :05:36. | :05:45. | |
unwanted pregnancies that enforced the sexual mores. The shotgun | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
marriages if somebody got pregnant. They both felt they had to get | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
married. The way -- the word a liberation was necessary. I wonder | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
when you look at the world today, and here we are many years later, | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
60 years after this breakthrough, and you look around and you see, | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
and I think the WHO has estimated that 100 million women are on the | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
kill at any given time, I wonder whether you feel have your hopes | :06:21. | :06:31. | |
:06:31. | :06:34. | ||
come to fruition? Yes they have. But I wonder about your question. | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
Do you mean if that was the motivation for making the compound? | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
The answer is no. I just wonder if you saw where your breakthrough was | :06:44. | :06:52. | |
going. The answer is still no. The term population explosion came | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
about in the 1960s. That was of international, global consequences. | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
It sounded horrendous and it is in fact horrendous. If you look at me, | :07:01. | :07:11. | |
:07:11. | :07:15. | ||
I am unique. During my lifetime the population multiplied by it four. | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
That is impossible now. We will not have 32 million people from 8 | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
million ever again. From 2 billion at two 8 billion in a person's | :07:27. | :07:36. | |
lifetime has never happened before. It is fascinating. Eva put it in | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
terms of the implications of the contraceptive pill for democratic - | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
- demographics. Some of the countries which are the poorest of | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
the world where the population is rising at the fastest rate... | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
Nigeria, Pakistan... Ethiopia... And others, it is interesting that | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
in many of these countries the use of the contraceptive pill is very, | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
very low. Not only the altogether. That is true in some | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
cases. Not in some cases. That is exactly the situation in these | :08:11. | :08:19. | |
countries. For example in Ethiopia 14% of women use some kind of | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
contraception but only 3% use the contraceptive pill. That is quite a | :08:24. | :08:33. | |
number. That is about one-third of the people. Less than a quarter. | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Yes, but there are why do you think that is? What do you think of the | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
contraceptive pill used in the US and the UK? Take the United States. | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
Where most people practise birth control at one time or another. | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
Less than 30% use it. The most popular method of birth control in | :08:52. | :09:02. | |
:09:02. | :09:05. | ||
the United States... In in China about 5% use the contraceptive pill. | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
If you think that is a low figure, I can give you Algeria. 44% of its | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
use it. That sounds like a lot, but still, it is one of the methods. | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
People think we need new methods of birth control. Think about Japan | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
which is still one of the worst ones. And yet they have one of the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
lowest birthrate. It is the all this country in the world as a | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
result. I think you should focus on software. What do you mean? | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
Hardware is the method one uses whether it is abortion, are you | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
Dees, abstinence, whatever. Soap where -- software, legal, cultural | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
issues. That is where the action is. Take eastern European countries. | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
The Soviet Union until about 1990, where contraception even to the | :10:04. | :10:11. | |
state is horrible. Abortion was the method of birth control in Japan | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
from 1945 until about 1965. It is still used. I think it is a | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
motivation that is important. you're talking motivation and | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
social attitudes, then it does raise the question of religion. | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Among other things. I began by asking you as a young men when you | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
were working on the is whether you were aware of the huge arena in | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
which you were entering. Revision is a part of that. Very much. | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
we found was the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope in particular | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
making declarations, saying that the contraceptive pill was | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
absolutely contrary... And look at what happened as a result. It had | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
the worst side effect, not medical ones, but the secularisation of | :11:01. | :11:09. | |
religion and the number of women in this case who decided to violate | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
one of the real terms of the Church, ignore it. Latin America has the | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
highest proportion of illegal abortions. These are the | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
consequences. Ireland was an exception until fairly recently. | :11:26. | :11:33. | |
What happens in Ireland does not matter. It had no particular effect. | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
The Church prevents condom use. The Pope's went to Africa and said you | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
should not use condoms. That is an interesting point about condoms and | :11:46. | :11:53. | |
reflecting on the context of Aids in Africa. If more women were on | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
Saharan Africa they may feel less inclined to use and encourage them | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
men to use condoms. The condom is a barrier method. Absolutely. | :12:07. | :12:14. | |
prevent the spread of disease. You are moving on to fast. | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
appearance of Aids in the 1980s changed sexual behaviour enormously | :12:20. | :12:29. | |
in certain circles, not in southern Africa. With the university | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
students for example there was a lot more sweeping around between | :12:34. | :12:43. | |
1960 and 1980 than between 1980 and 2010. What if the Pill had never | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
been developed, what would sex be like now? It would be just about | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
the same. It really would be. The pill has not caused the sexual | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
revolution of the 1960s. It has greatly facilitated it. You would | :13:00. | :13:10. | |
:13:10. | :13:11. | ||
have had hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of abortions. | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
Sexual behaviour now would be the same. When we talk about these | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
fertility issues, things are changing very fast. We talk a lot | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
about the 1960s and the role of the contraceptive pill in women's | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
liberation. Let's move on to a much more current debate, in | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
industrialised nations, which is not so much about contraception, | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
but about delivering concepts and delivering it in the way that suits | :13:39. | :13:48. | |
women in particular best of. It is a real turn about in this debate. | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
Yes. But this went completely parallel with the changes in the | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
role of women. In my lifetime, in the last 40 years, take the UK. A | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
pretty misogynous country compared to other countries. Do you think | :14:02. | :14:11. | |
so? Absolutely. I will give you one demonstration. Until about 1990, | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
this was the only industrialised country in which I did not know of | :14:15. | :14:25. | |
:14:25. | :14:29. | ||
a single woman professor in any UK country. -- in any UK university. | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
Let's bring it back to the issue of fertility. Making a career is | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
difficult for women in the academic sphere. They want to make sure that | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
bearing children does not interfere with their career ambitions. In one | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
way you are right. The academic situation for women in the UK has | :14:53. | :15:02. | |
changed very rapidly in the last 15 years because it was so bad before. | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
That is true of professional women not only in the UK, but in the US | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
and other countries, educated women who moved into positions from which | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
they were excluded. Postpone child- bearing. This is the way. I want to | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
get to. Not now, but later. A young man in his 20s would not even think | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
about it. He will say, I will do it later. Because biologically he can. | :15:33. | :15:43. | |
:15:43. | :15:43. | ||
The women ignore the fact do not think about the fact by 35 they | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
have lost most of their eggs. They are ageing rapidly. The difference | :15:50. | :16:00. | |
:16:00. | :16:01. | ||
between 35 and 40 is much bigger You have written about this a lot. | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
The question is to what extent these industrialised countries are | :16:06. | :16:16. | |
:16:16. | :16:16. | ||
coming to rely on in vitro fertilisation to give women more | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
choice over when to be pregnant. was one of the first ones to offer | :16:23. | :16:31. | |
this in a play. It was called the immaculate in conception. That is | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
where I predicted this. It is only in the last couple of years the | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
technology for freezing eggs has developed so you can, not guarantee, | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
but maybe in another ten years guarantee, young women soon be able | :16:51. | :16:58. | |
to freeze their eggs so if they do not have a child in the usual way | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
before she is 35 she can use her own eggs. Are you suggesting there | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
would be a good thing? It is an option women are entitled to | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
because men do not have to concern themselves with this. I am not | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
saying they should do this or not. You are a sign says. There are some | :17:17. | :17:27. | |
:17:27. | :17:29. | ||
facts which cannot be ignored -- ciders. -- scientist. A publication | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
said it leads to serious birth defects. It does not. It is | :17:33. | :17:41. | |
irrelevant to what I have said. IBF was discovered in England in 1977. | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
4 million people were born without sexual intercourse by that point. | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
90% of them were people with fertility problems who could not | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
have children otherwise and therefore used this method. The | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
majority were older women. But they had no choice because they had no | :18:04. | :18:14. | |
:18:14. | :18:14. | ||
other way. I am talking about women... I am talking about IVF for | :18:14. | :18:22. | |
fertile people. For the ones we were talking about, the chance of | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
some people was only 10%. This is a different population group. We saw | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
Lord Winston saying he worries that too often the proper motive of | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
private clinics is driving the popularity of this procedure for | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
women. He Warriors this will actually not be telling the truth | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
to women -- worries. He is correct. He is talking about a given | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
population group. He is talking about people suffering from in | :18:56. | :19:03. | |
fertility and have no choice. Now you can push that further with new | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
technology. But I am talking about fertile people who in their early | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
20s, for insurance, freeze their eggs. That will remove the need for | :19:16. | :19:23. | |
contraception. If you guarantee it, and can freeze your eggs, put them | :19:23. | :19:31. | |
in the bank, anything that is sterilise can be used. It is a | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
fascinating picture of a future you are painting. It brings me to a | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
thought you had when you rose this play about the immaculate | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
misconception. You talk about the divorce of sex and reproduction. I | :19:47. | :19:57. | |
:19:57. | :19:58. | ||
wonder whether this direction is worrying for the species? How? | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
Everything we take for granted about relationships and the | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
Association of reproduction and last thing loving relationships | :20:06. | :20:16. | |
:20:16. | :20:28. | ||
come into question. I disagree with the 100%. -- you. Firstly, a child | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
is a cement for a relationship between husband and wife for two | :20:32. | :20:42. | |
partners. Think about the number I quoted. 50% of all conceptions are | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
unexpected and another 50% are unwanted. 25% of all natural | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
conceptions which you romanticised as a wonderful family that I would | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
destroy... And have 50 million abortions a year as a result of | :21:01. | :21:11. | |
:21:11. | :21:11. | ||
this. I am talking about where a couple have lots of sex but only | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
1.5 children, often less than two children per family. There would be | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
no abortion. They have the child when the two of them are ready. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
That is a nuclear family that is much better than the one he talked | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
about. That is one scenario but in your world which routinely young | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
people are putting their sperm or eggs into a freezer and opening | :21:38. | :21:47. | |
options for what they do with those in the future... There are so many | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
possibilities for relationships and shopping around for designer babies | :21:53. | :22:03. | |
:22:03. | :22:04. | ||
of the future. You do not base a decision on who to take for sperm | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
donation on romance. The woman puts her eight in the bank and the man | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
puts his firm in the bank. -- egg. They are the only ones to have the | :22:16. | :22:26. | |
right to use them. You have a famous case of a woman who's | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
husband died and she asked to use his sperm. He had not given written | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
permission to use his sperm before he died and the case was dismissed. | :22:37. | :22:44. | |
That is no more shocking then you looking for a wife. You are not | :22:44. | :22:54. | |
:22:54. | :22:55. | ||
shopping for an egg. Money is a factor. You have made a lot of | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
money as if your career. I wonder whether money and scientific IDO is | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
increasingly playing a role and whether we can trust scientists to | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
do the right thing in these profoundly important times? | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
started by saying should we allow science to do this or that. But | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
people decide whether they want to use that technology or not. This is | :23:23. | :23:30. | |
about whether we can trust our scientists. You can trust them. You | :23:30. | :23:39. | |
cannot trust them any more than anyone else. What is it about | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
scientists you feel you cannot trust? The power of scientists is | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
more profound. We have talked a lot about the Pill. You were | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
responsible for having developed something that has a family | :23:55. | :23:59. |