Professor Carl Djerassi, co-inventor of the contraceptive pill HARDtalk


Professor Carl Djerassi, co-inventor of the contraceptive pill

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to help families. You can see his beach live here on BBC News. That's

:00:03.:00:11.

it from me for nine at -- -- that's it for me for now.

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It is time the HARDtalk. My guest today was instrumental in the

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development of a revolutionary new drug which has since transformed

:00:20.:00:25.

cow was women's lives, the oral contraceptive pill. Carl Djerassi's

:00:25.:00:30.

side to victory made him a fortune but also prompted ethical and moral

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questions which he has addressed in a series of novels and plays. How

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far should we allow science to redefine the process of

:00:38.:00:48.
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Carl Djerassi, welcome to HARDtalk. Let me begin by taking you back to

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the late 1940s and early 1950s. You were elan scientist working in a

:01:19.:01:24.

laboratory on hormones. I wonder if at that time you appreciated the

:01:24.:01:30.

significance of what you were working on. I am a chemist, not a

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biologist. I was aware of the chemical significance. The answer

:01:37.:01:46.

is no. Nobody could have. 11 years later after we synthesised it in

:01:46.:01:50.

1951 it was introduced on the market. Neither the companies nor

:01:50.:01:54.

the physician's nor the public expected it. We did not realise how

:01:54.:02:00.

quickly it would be used. Within two years about 2 million women in

:02:00.:02:10.
:02:10.:02:11.

the US were using it. It was not really a campaign. At that time

:02:11.:02:14.

birth control, contraception was not even on the radar of

:02:14.:02:21.

pharmaceutical companies or in the public. It was just after the war.

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People wanted to have children rather than the other way round.

:02:26.:02:32.

be very basic about it, the idea of the contraceptive pill and then, as

:02:32.:02:37.

it was commercially developed through the 1950s and 60s, was to

:02:37.:02:47.
:02:47.:02:52.

stop women ovulating. Not quite. In 1957 it was allowed for infertility

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and menstrual irregularities. Some women were not producing enough

:02:57.:03:06.

progesterone. It is also necessary for the proper maintenance for the

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uterus environment for the foetus to develop. If women do not produce

:03:11.:03:16.

enough progesterone after they are pregnant they will suffer at an

:03:16.:03:22.

abortion. Treatment of infertility and mental disorder were the uses.

:03:22.:03:25.

That was 1957. Only three years later was it approve the

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contraception. And when that happened it was because that was

:03:29.:03:35.

the effect it had. Stopping of elation. I just wonder whether, as

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you saw your initial breakthroughs turn into the reality of a pill

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which could be taken by a woman to control her fidelity in a new way,

:03:46.:03:52.

a guaranteed way, whether you were delighted. -- control her fertility.

:03:52.:04:02.
:04:02.:04:08.

Yes. I think it was the right time. It was a man in the 1920s who

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predicted all of this. He wrote an extraordinary book in 1931 and then

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he committed suicide in 1932 because of the position of the

:04:20.:04:30.
:04:30.:04:38.

Conservative circles and the church at that time. He talked about the

:04:38.:04:44.

temporary of women. The 1960s were the decade of the rock'n'roll,

:04:44.:04:50.

hippy culture. It was the real flowering of the women's movement.

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It was at a time when abortion was illegal. The women's movement was

:04:57.:05:02.

different from the other movements. It involved a certain amount of

:05:02.:05:09.

sexual liberation. Certainly not the sort of Victorian behaviour

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that people encouraged or pretended to follow. In a way it was

:05:19.:05:26.

divorcing sexuality and the sexual act from procreation. Not yet. That

:05:26.:05:32.

is the situation now. At that time it was simply having sex without

:05:32.:05:36.

having to worry about the consequences. Remember it was

:05:36.:05:45.

unwanted pregnancies that enforced the sexual mores. The shotgun

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marriages if somebody got pregnant. They both felt they had to get

:05:50.:05:57.

married. The way -- the word a liberation was necessary. I wonder

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when you look at the world today, and here we are many years later,

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60 years after this breakthrough, and you look around and you see,

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and I think the WHO has estimated that 100 million women are on the

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kill at any given time, I wonder whether you feel have your hopes

:06:21.:06:31.
:06:31.:06:34.

come to fruition? Yes they have. But I wonder about your question.

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Do you mean if that was the motivation for making the compound?

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The answer is no. I just wonder if you saw where your breakthrough was

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going. The answer is still no. The term population explosion came

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about in the 1960s. That was of international, global consequences.

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It sounded horrendous and it is in fact horrendous. If you look at me,

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I am unique. During my lifetime the population multiplied by it four.

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That is impossible now. We will not have 32 million people from 8

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million ever again. From 2 billion at two 8 billion in a person's

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lifetime has never happened before. It is fascinating. Eva put it in

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terms of the implications of the contraceptive pill for democratic -

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- demographics. Some of the countries which are the poorest of

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the world where the population is rising at the fastest rate...

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Nigeria, Pakistan... Ethiopia... And others, it is interesting that

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in many of these countries the use of the contraceptive pill is very,

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very low. Not only the altogether. That is true in some

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cases. Not in some cases. That is exactly the situation in these

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countries. For example in Ethiopia 14% of women use some kind of

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contraception but only 3% use the contraceptive pill. That is quite a

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number. That is about one-third of the people. Less than a quarter.

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Yes, but there are why do you think that is? What do you think of the

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contraceptive pill used in the US and the UK? Take the United States.

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Where most people practise birth control at one time or another.

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Less than 30% use it. The most popular method of birth control in

:08:52.:09:02.
:09:02.:09:05.

the United States... In in China about 5% use the contraceptive pill.

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If you think that is a low figure, I can give you Algeria. 44% of its

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use it. That sounds like a lot, but still, it is one of the methods.

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People think we need new methods of birth control. Think about Japan

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which is still one of the worst ones. And yet they have one of the

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lowest birthrate. It is the all this country in the world as a

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result. I think you should focus on software. What do you mean?

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Hardware is the method one uses whether it is abortion, are you

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Dees, abstinence, whatever. Soap where -- software, legal, cultural

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issues. That is where the action is. Take eastern European countries.

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The Soviet Union until about 1990, where contraception even to the

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state is horrible. Abortion was the method of birth control in Japan

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from 1945 until about 1965. It is still used. I think it is a

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motivation that is important. you're talking motivation and

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social attitudes, then it does raise the question of religion.

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Among other things. I began by asking you as a young men when you

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were working on the is whether you were aware of the huge arena in

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which you were entering. Revision is a part of that. Very much.

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we found was the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope in particular

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making declarations, saying that the contraceptive pill was

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absolutely contrary... And look at what happened as a result. It had

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the worst side effect, not medical ones, but the secularisation of

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religion and the number of women in this case who decided to violate

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one of the real terms of the Church, ignore it. Latin America has the

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highest proportion of illegal abortions. These are the

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consequences. Ireland was an exception until fairly recently.

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What happens in Ireland does not matter. It had no particular effect.

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The Church prevents condom use. The Pope's went to Africa and said you

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should not use condoms. That is an interesting point about condoms and

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reflecting on the context of Aids in Africa. If more women were on

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Saharan Africa they may feel less inclined to use and encourage them

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men to use condoms. The condom is a barrier method. Absolutely.

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prevent the spread of disease. You are moving on to fast.

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appearance of Aids in the 1980s changed sexual behaviour enormously

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in certain circles, not in southern Africa. With the university

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students for example there was a lot more sweeping around between

:12:34.:12:43.

1960 and 1980 than between 1980 and 2010. What if the Pill had never

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been developed, what would sex be like now? It would be just about

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the same. It really would be. The pill has not caused the sexual

:12:55.:13:00.

revolution of the 1960s. It has greatly facilitated it. You would

:13:00.:13:10.
:13:10.:13:11.

have had hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of abortions.

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Sexual behaviour now would be the same. When we talk about these

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fertility issues, things are changing very fast. We talk a lot

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about the 1960s and the role of the contraceptive pill in women's

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liberation. Let's move on to a much more current debate, in

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industrialised nations, which is not so much about contraception,

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but about delivering concepts and delivering it in the way that suits

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women in particular best of. It is a real turn about in this debate.

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Yes. But this went completely parallel with the changes in the

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role of women. In my lifetime, in the last 40 years, take the UK. A

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pretty misogynous country compared to other countries. Do you think

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so? Absolutely. I will give you one demonstration. Until about 1990,

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this was the only industrialised country in which I did not know of

:14:15.:14:25.
:14:25.:14:29.

a single woman professor in any UK country. -- in any UK university.

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Let's bring it back to the issue of fertility. Making a career is

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difficult for women in the academic sphere. They want to make sure that

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bearing children does not interfere with their career ambitions. In one

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way you are right. The academic situation for women in the UK has

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changed very rapidly in the last 15 years because it was so bad before.

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That is true of professional women not only in the UK, but in the US

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and other countries, educated women who moved into positions from which

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they were excluded. Postpone child- bearing. This is the way. I want to

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get to. Not now, but later. A young man in his 20s would not even think

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about it. He will say, I will do it later. Because biologically he can.

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The women ignore the fact do not think about the fact by 35 they

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have lost most of their eggs. They are ageing rapidly. The difference

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between 35 and 40 is much bigger You have written about this a lot.

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The question is to what extent these industrialised countries are

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coming to rely on in vitro fertilisation to give women more

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choice over when to be pregnant. was one of the first ones to offer

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this in a play. It was called the immaculate in conception. That is

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where I predicted this. It is only in the last couple of years the

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technology for freezing eggs has developed so you can, not guarantee,

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but maybe in another ten years guarantee, young women soon be able

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to freeze their eggs so if they do not have a child in the usual way

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before she is 35 she can use her own eggs. Are you suggesting there

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would be a good thing? It is an option women are entitled to

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because men do not have to concern themselves with this. I am not

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saying they should do this or not. You are a sign says. There are some

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:17:27.:17:29.

facts which cannot be ignored -- ciders. -- scientist. A publication

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said it leads to serious birth defects. It does not. It is

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irrelevant to what I have said. IBF was discovered in England in 1977.

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4 million people were born without sexual intercourse by that point.

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90% of them were people with fertility problems who could not

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have children otherwise and therefore used this method. The

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majority were older women. But they had no choice because they had no

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other way. I am talking about women... I am talking about IVF for

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fertile people. For the ones we were talking about, the chance of

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some people was only 10%. This is a different population group. We saw

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Lord Winston saying he worries that too often the proper motive of

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private clinics is driving the popularity of this procedure for

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women. He Warriors this will actually not be telling the truth

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to women -- worries. He is correct. He is talking about a given

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population group. He is talking about people suffering from in

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fertility and have no choice. Now you can push that further with new

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technology. But I am talking about fertile people who in their early

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20s, for insurance, freeze their eggs. That will remove the need for

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contraception. If you guarantee it, and can freeze your eggs, put them

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in the bank, anything that is sterilise can be used. It is a

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fascinating picture of a future you are painting. It brings me to a

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thought you had when you rose this play about the immaculate

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misconception. You talk about the divorce of sex and reproduction. I

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:19:57.:19:58.

wonder whether this direction is worrying for the species? How?

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Everything we take for granted about relationships and the

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Association of reproduction and last thing loving relationships

:20:06.:20:16.
:20:16.:20:28.

come into question. I disagree with the 100%. -- you. Firstly, a child

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is a cement for a relationship between husband and wife for two

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partners. Think about the number I quoted. 50% of all conceptions are

:20:42.:20:48.

unexpected and another 50% are unwanted. 25% of all natural

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conceptions which you romanticised as a wonderful family that I would

:20:55.:21:01.

destroy... And have 50 million abortions a year as a result of

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:21:11.:21:11.

this. I am talking about where a couple have lots of sex but only

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1.5 children, often less than two children per family. There would be

:21:17.:21:21.

no abortion. They have the child when the two of them are ready.

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That is a nuclear family that is much better than the one he talked

:21:25.:21:33.

about. That is one scenario but in your world which routinely young

:21:33.:21:38.

people are putting their sperm or eggs into a freezer and opening

:21:38.:21:47.

options for what they do with those in the future... There are so many

:21:47.:21:53.

possibilities for relationships and shopping around for designer babies

:21:53.:22:03.
:22:03.:22:04.

of the future. You do not base a decision on who to take for sperm

:22:04.:22:11.

donation on romance. The woman puts her eight in the bank and the man

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puts his firm in the bank. -- egg. They are the only ones to have the

:22:16.:22:26.

right to use them. You have a famous case of a woman who's

:22:26.:22:32.

husband died and she asked to use his sperm. He had not given written

:22:32.:22:37.

permission to use his sperm before he died and the case was dismissed.

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That is no more shocking then you looking for a wife. You are not

:22:44.:22:54.
:22:54.:22:55.

shopping for an egg. Money is a factor. You have made a lot of

:22:55.:23:02.

money as if your career. I wonder whether money and scientific IDO is

:23:02.:23:07.

increasingly playing a role and whether we can trust scientists to

:23:07.:23:12.

do the right thing in these profoundly important times?

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started by saying should we allow science to do this or that. But

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people decide whether they want to use that technology or not. This is

:23:23.:23:30.

about whether we can trust our scientists. You can trust them. You

:23:30.:23:39.

cannot trust them any more than anyone else. What is it about

:23:39.:23:44.

scientists you feel you cannot trust? The power of scientists is

:23:44.:23:48.

more profound. We have talked a lot about the Pill. You were

:23:48.:23:54.

responsible for having developed something that has a family

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