Shehu Sani HARDtalk

have control of a suburb in Damascus.

That's it from me tonight. It is time for HARDtalk.

Just how resilient are the foundations of the Nigerian states?

We may be about to find out. Africa's most populous country has

been rocked by a wave of shootings, orchestrated by Boko Haram, a

militant group incense on its -- intent on targeting the people of

the country. My guess has been a person trying to reach out to the

group. How can Nigeria of for it sectarian conflicts? -- of -- of

Welcome to HARDtalk. T Macro. have seen a series of shocking or

violent attacks by Boko Haram inside Nigeria. Why the new

incenses the to their campaign of violence? -- intensity. There is

the need for us to get to know how we can up by the violence -- up --

abide. You will have to translate to me the meaning of the full name.

It is a group of Islam this -- people dedicated to the promotion

of Islam. It is an extreme Muslim group, commonly known as Boko Haram.

That translates to say that Western education is forbidden. That gives

an idea of the extent see which they are committed to promoting an

extreme Muslim of perspective. is due to an extent. In reality,

when the group was founded in 2002, it was not seen as a file and grew.

-- as a violent group. They dream about Nigeria is an Islamist state.

I will repeat my question. As you said, they have been around since

2002. In the last few months we have seen the most shocking forms

of violence. We have seen Christians killed in charges. Why

is this happening now? -- in churches. To understand these

bombings we have to know how this came about. Before 2009, the

organisation was not violent. I do not share their ideology. The

crackdown on the group in 2009 which led to the killings of their

leaders pushed the group into exile. They bombed themselves to fight. --

they armed. You are a leading human rights advocate. Are you saying

they can only be understood as a reaction to a Nigerian security

crackdown? First of all... They are extreme and very Conservative. They

have been likened to the Taliban. They have hidden their own

philosophies. They follow a 12th- century is a must sculler, who died

in a 1328 -- Islamist scholar. They have been campaigning, peacefully.

In 2009 violence was directed towards them. The government at

that time refused to heed to their calls for justice and they were

forced to take up arms. I am struggling to understand how you

believe that before this series of City is the incidence in 2009, the

group was a peaceful group -- incidents. Any group that demands

the establishments of Islamist Sharia law and people who are not

like them are secondary citizens, they cannot be regarded as a

peaceful organisation? We have many sex been Nigeria... sects in

Nigeria. De how many Muslim up Nigeria's share their views? I do

not. How many Muslim Nigerians? Many Muslims in Nigeria once a

country ruled by a Islamist principles -- once up. -- want.

Known be in the country would say they do not like -- Merle one in in

the country would say they do -- no one in the country would say they

do not like Christians. It is clear attacks on Churches is pushing the

country to civil war. Before we get there, you have given me an

explanation of the lead up to violence. Is it not clear there is

a link between Boko Haram and other outside groups? Issues of terrosim

cause concern. Boko Haram's leaders have made it clear that have links

with other groups. Amoung them you have people who have fought in

Afganistan. So is is not part of a gloabl network? There are links

with groups in the Niger and Somali groups? So it is not home-grown

anymore? It started home-grown but has become a global concern. If you

accept that, why do you insist your govenment should be reaching out to

their and have dialogue? With this kind of terrosim, you can either

fight it or sit down and talk. We have been fighting them for two

years. This has just to the killings of innocent people. People

like me believe there needs to be a sit-down. There was terrorism and

violence raging for decades. Nigeria sat down with other groups

and found solutions. So you want a carrot approach to a group that

have killed 180 civilians and Christians in church? A carrot was

also offered to the people in the Niger Delta. If that could have

been done in the last two years... Fighting them has not worked.

have just changed your mind. One of the reason you have said we should

fight them is because of the govenment's policy of appeasing

terrorists? What I wrote, where things kept changing, now it is

clear the insurgency cannot be crushed by the use of force. Is it

clear? Some people say the govenment was never serious about a

real crackdown. You could say a real commitment could eliminate

this problem. In one area of Nigeria they are fighting the group.

But the attacks have increased in ferocity. If Boko Haram attacks

churches, you have Muslim leaders There was a policy of giving money

to militants. I can say, they also bombed, killed, vandalised.

could discuss this for a long time. There are many differences, but

that is not the focus of this interview. You have reached out to

Boko Haram, you have been to their northern place, you have spoken to

people who were related to one of the leaders, in an effort to

establish dialogue. I would put it to you that your effort failed.

has not failed. With respect, people know that two days after you

negotiated with them, Boko Haram then murdered a co-worker. He was

not killed by them. I reached out to the group and asked them how and

why. They believe that he was murdered by a Boko Haram. Boko

Haram came out to the media and denied killing him. But nobody

believes that. Where would you believe it? They owned up to what

they do it. But these are murderers of innocence. Why should we believe

them? They are, but in clear terms. He was not killed by the group

because they came out openly and denied it. They have never denied

water they have done. If you are so confident of the word of Boko Haram,

the degree that you can trust them to stick to their word, what is the

deal that the Nigerian government should be offering these people?

all the attacks they have launched, it came with a warning. No it did

not. How can you say that? Hold on. How can you say that the people in

that church who were murdered at Christmas had a warning? That meet

telly it. A warning by a terrorist organisation. You can take a major

efforts to protect the citizens, or you except the demands. The

government did not do either of those things. Are you suggesting

that these Christians were going to be murdered and the government

simply stood by and just watch it happen? The leader of the Boko

Haram issued threats to the police and the government. They said if

their members are not released, they would take action. The

government did not take that threat seriously. We are dealing with a

government that does not take threats or advice from people like

me. We need to sit down with this group so the problem can end.

Earlier you mentioned the prospect of civil war. I have been reading

interviews with people from the Norse who are living in the south

end feel threatened because of retaliation against more than us, I

have also read many interviews with southerners, Christians living in

the north who feel threatened and have basically been told they have

three days to get out of town. On both sides of the division there is

feeling that they are not fundamentally threatened. How real

is the prospect of mass sectarian violence? Heat is not dependent on

the attacks by Boko Haram. It is dependent on the ability of the

leadership in the country to offer leadership in times of crisis. Also

the ability of Muslim leaders to come out openly and to make a clear

opposition. It is also dependent on Christian leaders and their ability

to exercise restraint. The violence that is going on now is violence

between Muslims and Christians, but the Boko Haram have made it clear

they are going to fight. They attacked churches. People like me

are trying to bring that to eight - - to an end. President Goodluck

Jonathan suggested the country was in a more serious situation then it

was at the start of the civil war in the '60s. Do you agree?

should not lament, he should offer a leadership. When he laments,

there is no solution. It is true that Nigeria is in a perilous

situation. But what we need now is a leader who will inspire and

provide confidence for the people. He should assure the people of the

government's intention to protect their lives. You said it is time

for Muslim leaders... You're not a religious leader, you were a

secular leader, but I would put you in that category. Very well

respected Muslims in Nigeria who have a voice in their community.

You said it was time for them to ensure that the message is Muslims

want a unified Nigeria. But you said, many Muslims do what Sharia

law across the nation. They do want to leave in an Islamic Nigeria. How

do those statements go together? Muslims in northern Nigeria warned

that a well for themselves. When I say that Muslims should come out

and make a queue position of their desire, I need it clear that

Christian leaders must also exercised restraint. Some of them

are a making it difficult. Data suggesting that what Boko Haram

have done is reflective of the wishes of Muslims. It is not true.

I must also refer to another grim reality of Nigeria. Protest over

the government's attempt to hike the price of fuel. It sought troops

on the streets of Nigeria's major cities, violence between security

forces and workers and demonstrators. It made me wonder

how stable the foundations of Nigerian democracy are. What do you

think the answer is? Nigerian democracy has been through

troubling times. But all the time we have been able to recover from

shocks and vibrations. What is happening today when it comes to

the protest, these are all realities of democracy. In Africa,

there has never been a country he has such a vibrant civil society

like Nigeria. You see hundreds of thousands of the street demanding

change. The very fact that you can see people protesting his prove

that the democracy is working. applies to the economic troubles

and also the sectarian issues. You think that in the end the

democratic government of Nigeria, and some would argue it is not, is

capable of meeting the challenge? They have no option. Why were

people in the street? The government decided to withdraw

subsidy, which the common people believed was an attempt to ruin

their lives and impoverish them. Despite all economic reasons given

by the government, the people do not believe it. I do not think that

protests and civil disobedience can bring down the democracy. In a word,