Edwin Cameron - South African Constitutional Court Judge HARDtalk

That is a summary of the headlines. Now what is time for HARDtalk.

Living as an openly gay man in socially conservative Africa is

hard enough, but Edwin Cameron went even further. He was the first

public official in South Africa to reveal his HIV positive status.

Nelson Mandela appointed him a judge and he now serves on South

Africa's constitutional court. There remains high levels of

homophobia on the continent - why are gay activists like Cameron

Edwin Cameron, welcomed HARDtalk. In 1986 you developed her HIV

status. Then in 1997 you got full- blown AIDS and you thought you were

dying. Describe that to us. It was a tough time. I had been a judge or

ready for three years. I hoped my HIV would never catch up with me, 3

but it did. My advantage was that I had access to anti-retro viral

drugs, the only known treatment for AIDS. They gave me my life back.

That is what put me on the campaign trail to make these drugs available

to other people in Africa. At the time you spent something like a

third of your salary on acquiring these NT writ for viral drugs. Lots

of people were not so fortunate and could not afford it -- anti-retro

viral drugs. Had that make you feel when you saw people unable to buy

these drugs? It was in horrible. My campaign in South Africa took on

the drug companies on the question of drug pricing and they won the

battle. To the drug companies' credit, they conceded that they

couldn't withhold anti-anti-viral treatment from people in Africa.

But you were fortunate, personally, because as soon as you knew you

were HIV-positive, you could keep it under control. My wife was given

back to me. It was almost miraculous. Tell us back when that

moment hit when you thought - oh my goodness, I think I have got full-

blown AIDS. How did you realise that? It was when I couldn't walk

up the stairs to my judge's chambers any more from the tea room.

I realised that I was desperately sick and I was facing death. It was

only two flight of stairs. I stopped one day in the middle of

them and I realise that I was so sick that I was likely to be dying.

Had it not occurred to you before then? Had it been at the back of

your mind? You put it at the back of your mind and you push it right

to the bottom. In the end it catches up with you. It is a form

of denial. We have been stricken with many forms of denial over this

AIDS epidemic on our continent. tried to lead a heterosexual life,

you dated women. You have been married. He Dunant, coming out as a

gay man in the 80s -- here you are. Did that strike you as unfair? On

the one hand you had liberty, but on the other hand you are suffering

the constraint of this illness. contributed to a terrible sense of

Shame I felt about being HIV- positive. I thought it was because

I got it as a gay men met. It was only when I worked with poor black

women, women who are married to mine workers, who also spoke about

that sense of Shame - I realised it had nothing to do with being gay,

it had to do with the stigma that surrounds HIV generally. You talk

about the stigma around HIV, there is also, of course, the stigma that

is particularly attached to gay people, it game men, in particular,

not only in South Africa, but in sub-Saharan Africa. We are seeing

anti-homosexuality panic -- penalties, like what they are

trying to impose in Uganda. What lies behind that? It is difficult

with both hater of the stigma and with homosexuality, dealing with

something both personal and private, which is one's sexual functioning.

If I tell you I'm a gay men that, I am talking to about a very intimate

part of myself - our function as a sexual human being. That is why it

is hard for people to accept. That is why the more people get

accustomed to the idea that sexual function lies upon a varied scale.

There are people were gate everywhere. Muslims, Christians,

Orthodox Jews. As more minority people, -- a small minority of

people, about one in 20, both are same-sex oriented. The fact that it

is doing with sex is why it is difficult. Aids, in 95% of cases,

is transmitted through sex. That makes it difficult for people not

to be judgmental. Even before there was her HIV/AIDS on the scene,

there has been a great deal of anti-homosexuality sentiment,

particularly in socially conservative Africa. Why do you

think that is? What is it about the social customs, the mores? Let me

put it around the other way. -- the more res. There is some evidence

that same-sex customs were accepted in colonial Africa. The British

exported anti-homosexuality laws to the whole Commonwealth. One problem

we are seeing now is that the British Commonwealth has got a very

high proportion of countries that still criminalise same-sex

activities. It was one of Britain's least creditable exports. I am

turning the question around a bit. It isn't just something that was

brought in by the British. If you look at both Christians and Muslims,

the way they articulate their anti- homosexuals sentiment, they say -

look, the Bible says that marriages between a man and a woman. There

should be a husband-and-wife. If you look at most laws in northern

Nigeria, they actually prohibit homosexual acts. Certainly the

Christian religious views were brought in by the British and the

other colonists of Africa. What I am saying is, certainly religion

fuels anti-Day Centre and in Africa. Unfortunately, far right-wing

religious fundamentals sec tos our funding anti-gay programmes in

central and southern Africa -- fundamental sect's are funding. It

is much more complex than this would suggest. South Africa

enshrines equality for homosexuals people in its constitution from the

bill of Rights, chapter two of the constitution. The state cannot

unfairly discriminate against anyone because of their sexual

orientation. We see attacks in South Africa against gay people.

Rapes against lesbians. They are being beaten up, subjected to gang

rapes and harassment. These rights to not delivering quality, do they?

What you are talking about with gay people and lesbian women in South

Africa shows the limitations of constitutional promises. We have a

beautiful constitution but we haven't we do our country of

poverty or races them and we haven't read it of homophobia debt.

I still believe that legal rights are an indispensable part of

securing justice in a very divided and impoverished country like South

Africa. Legal rights are important, but surely they have to be enforced.

When you see that there are complaints by many people who are

gay saying that "we find that the police don't provide us with the

protection" there was a human Rights Watch report in December

that said it was quite clear that virtually all of those interviewed

who tried to report physical or sexual violence faced ridicule,

harassment and secondary victimisation by police personnel.

The legal rights are not, a lone, sufficient. That's right. What we

need to back up the legal right is a set of institutions that value

people's diversity. No-one will say that we have reached that point

might yet in South Africa. That is what women report - women who get

raped, report very similarly to have gay and lesbian people report.

It is particularly bad in the case of gays and lesbians. How do you

get to that position, where you say state institutions will be enforced

and underpin what rights the constitutions should deliver? How

can you get it, when clearly it is not happening? The problem with

justice in our country -- the Department of Justice in our

country has taken the first step, they are investigating what we call

collective rape, particularly in townships. We have to get an

official culture that rejects that form of discrimination and

victimisation and then you have to get ordinary officials to carry it

through in their daily tasks. That is a long way to go. Getting

official recognition is very difficult when, for instance, you

look at what the former president of neighbouring Botswana has said,

which is, it is very difficult to champion the rights of gay people

because it is a vote loser, it is not a vote-winner. Anybody who is

in office, he has said, will not do that. If you get a former head of

state doing that, you're not going to get official recognition easily,

are you? To give him the highest credit, he is very sympathetic, now

he is out of office. His voice is important. That is why our

constitution is so important. In South Africa we have got a

constitution that guarantees the right to life and the

constitutional court said this was not compatible with the death

penalty, although many South Africans supported the death

penalty. Many South Africans support the constitution

unconditionally, even though they may have reservations about gay and

lesbian equality. Until losing the argument, really, justice Cameron?

The continent is becoming more homophobic. The vast majority of

people in Africa, something like 90%, according to polls, are

opposed to homosexuality, and Gala, Nigeria, Cameroon, they are all

stepping up legislation against homosexuality. Why is it getting

worse? I think it is partly it again, if one goes back to

Victorian England, it has always been a very good excuse to have a

day baiting or reggae persecution. -- day baiting or gave persecution.

The positive side of what is happening in Africa, in Malawi, in

Nigeria, elsewhere in the continent, is that gays and lesbians have come

out of the bottle. They are speaking out. They are making

organisations. They are making themselves heard. I don't believe

that the argument is being lost, I believe there are very, very brave

West Africans, East Africans, Kenyans, people from Malawi, who

say "this is a reality in Africa" the big problem with sexual

orientation has been silence. People don't think I am gay, it is

only when I say that I am gay that the phenomenon is drawn to their

attention. That is what is happening in Africa. The good news

is that is an unchanging blue happening. -- that is inevitably

happening. Is it always good to People were built commitment here,

nobody bothered about us. In heavy, speaking out has made matters worse.

She has a valid point doesn't she? A valid point because right-wing

fundamentalists funded the hatred and press reports in Uganda. To

some extent it is a special case. I would say that speaking out his the

first indispensable step to consciousness about being gay.

you always know about that? He says it is difficult to talk about sex

enjoy sexual orientation. Did you have to overcome a barrier? Did you

feel embarrassed when you first talked about it? People find it

very difficult to talk about themselves to their parents for

their partners, or colleagues at work. But that is what you have to

do. He will not talking about the sexual act, he were talking about

yourself as asexual being, that is the embarrassing part. You are an

advocate of gay rights, not only in South Africa, but in the

Commonwealth wet about 40 or 50 member countries still have laws

prohibiting homosexuality. Do you think that the fight is something

that you can delay alone? Or do you think you need help? I think there

are at enormous activists, they are courageous and out spoken

throughout the world. International law supports them, international

organisations are starting to support them. We spoke about a

former President, he duffed Office and has come to the point where as

a very respected statesman on the African continent he speaks about

these issues, that shows progress. When David Cameron threatens to

withhold aid from countries that want reform legislation banning

homosexuality, is that some think he would like? A I have

reservations about the way David Cameron did it. He should have

consulted with the organisations in each country. They should have

linked it to a much broader human rights agenda. While I appreciate

what he did, I do not think he went about it the right way. What about

the British law making gay hate a crime? What you like to see that

adopted specifically? I feel not complacent, but I have a sense of

optimism about people's understanding of homosexuality in

all continents. We will get to the point where they will be hate wars

in place to protect people in most countries. -- hate laws. Criticisms

about it a strong Christian belief. They describe how my sexuality as a

disease, were you comfortable? Chief Justice has committed himself

to the constitution. He has committed himself to constitutional

protection for everyone. I think that is important, it is not just

words. It shows the strength of the legal system and legal rights and

constitutionalism. The commitment is what matters. It does not

buddleia that the Church he belongs to shows -- -- it does not bother

you that the Church he belongs to claims that homosexuality is a

disease? I am not bothered by that. Have you talked to him about this?

I have never spoken to him directly. But at a very personal level I

would make it clear that at a private function we have every year

that I was welcomed with my partner. They appreciated that as a gesture

from him. It has been said that the Chief Justice considerate his

convictions from what he does in court. Can you do that? I had not

asked what his convictions are, but I know that he is committed to the

constitution. As a judge, I have to do that myself. You have to work to

the law, I believe he would do that in most cases. Apart from

criticisms about the church, there are concerns that the independence

of the judiciary is under assault from the executive? In any

democratic society is is always an uncomfortable fit and you have a

strong-minded judiciary saying these are the legal limits of your

Africa has done that. It leads to discomfort. I think that concerns

always have to be taken seriously. I do not think the debate in South

Africa it is fundamentally different to what is happening in

the United States or the UK. Make you look at an anti-apartheid

activists, she says the decisions of the constitutional court can be

subject to government review. The government can assess what you do.

That sounds like an assault on your independence. A governor announced

there would be an assessment of the constitutional court assessments.

From a mine. A cute as a court judge, I would be delighted to have

Arab decisions assessed. They would be anti-corruption. The more the

public knows about what the court is doing to secure work justice and

social justice, it will be better for the courts. I would welcome

that. That is the state assessing itself? The state assessing the

judiciary, the judiciary is not above the law. He should be

independent minded, the effect of the matter is the Attorney General

Act's according to the public interest in his view. Not on behalf

of the government. In upholding the public interest he will act as to

what he determines his best, not on behalf of the Government. We have a

different and more complex situation. We have a strong civil

society sector. We have a strong legal profession and strong-minded

judges. All of those go into a mixed to give a strong voice in

defence of the judiciary. Want the strong media be under review? It

will be a crime to leak all possess or publish information judged as

classified by the Government. Journalists and whistle-blowers

could face up to 25 years in jail if convicted. There has been a

storm of that war. It will come to the constitutional law. We will

have all the Lord -- all the information given to us by the

government and the public. We will have to determine whether the

government's concerns are justified. There will also consider the

public's concerns. We have had a constitutional court for 18 years.

It has functioned well. A lot of the public will want to see what

the outcome is. A judge's key role is to uphold the public interest.

In this built there is no public interest defence clause is there?

The government's answer to that is one that we will have been caught.

-- Court. I will become better informed through the judging. We

will have information on that aspect. The outgoing Chief Justice

said we need to hit more from judges, not just out going once. He

said there is no-one better too dependent than the judges

themselves. You have been outspoken on gay rights, should you beat as

outspoken and such concerns when people believed the judiciary is a

threat? To be truthful, to step back, sitting as a judge in South

Africa I do not think that we are under greater threat. I think there