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jailed for 11 years. He started... Now it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
Is there any life left in Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria? In | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
recent days, Syrian security forces have shown no sign of pulling back | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
from key towns and cities, as envisaged by the UN special envoy | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
Kofi Annan. But as the deadline for disengagement approaches, he | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
refuses to give up hope. The coming hours will be pivotal for the Assad | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
regime and for the Syrian rebels. My guest is Mohammad Bassam Imadi, | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
a former Syrian diplomat now on the foreign relations committee of the | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
Syrian National Council. Does Syria's opposition have a coherent | :00:47. | :00:57. | |
:00:57. | :01:17. | ||
strategy, and if so, what is it? Mohammad Bassam Imadi, in Istanbul, | :01:17. | :01:27. | |
:01:27. | :01:31. | ||
welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let's start with Kofi Annan. He | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
says he remains hopeful that Syrian forces will adhere to his peace | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
plan, that is a ceasefire and disengagement over the next few | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
hours. Do you have any hope? He is a very optimistic man. It is very | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
evident that the regime is not going to abide by his plan at all. | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
They said very frankly that they wanted some conditions to be | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
implemented, these conditions are impossible, so it is very obvious | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
that the regime is not going to abide by the plan. If you are | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
talking about conditions, they seem to have changed somewhat. The | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
Syrian government were talking about getting written assurances | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
from the opposition that your forces will lay down their arms. | :02:16. | :02:26. | |
:02:26. | :02:28. | ||
They have abandoned that. The foreign minister has said that he | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
was no longer expecting to see these written assurances from your | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
side, so, on that basis, maybe there is room for hope. I have to | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
make it clear that the opposition has no forces. There is a Free | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
Syrian Army which is an entity by itself. Then there is the Syrian | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
National Council which is a political body. These two things | :02:45. | :02:55. | |
:02:55. | :02:58. | ||
are not one body. But we have an advantage that the Free Syrian Army | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
have declared they will abide by the plan, they have given five days, | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
I think, for the Syrian regime to abide by the plan. If not, they | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
will be free to defend themselves. The Free Syrian Army is not an army | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
attacking the regular army, it is an army that is defending itself, | :03:13. | :03:21. | |
defending the cities, and that is the situation. There is a | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
misunderstanding that the Free Syrian Army is trying to attack | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
some barracks or some army units, but that is not true. The beginning | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
of the Free Syrian Army was a few soldiers who defected from the | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
military, and they were targeted by the regime, so they had to run away | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
and find places to hide and defend themselves. Another purpose for the | :03:40. | :03:50. | |
Free Syrian Army was to protect civilians. And this is a little bit | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
:04:00. | :04:02. | ||
chicken and egg. On the other side, Foreign Minister, saying, he said | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
this just a few hours ago, he said the Syrian government has withdrawn | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
army units from some provinces, and terrorism activity, as he described | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
it, escalated and spread into other areas. He is saying that as they | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
pull back forces from some areas, the Free Syrian Army moves in and | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
conducts operations against them. This man has no credibility any | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
more, if he had any in the past. First of all, he said they withdrew | :04:28. | :04:37. | |
some units from some places, in fact, nothing was withdrawn. We | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
should remind everybody that at the beginning, the revolution was very | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
peaceful, the Syrian people refused to hold arms against this regime, | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
they continued for 9-10 months demonstrating very peacefully in | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
the streets, but this oppressive solution that this regime has | :04:49. | :04:59. | |
:04:59. | :05:00. | ||
followed has forced them to hold arms to defend themselves. You must | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
have heard and seen so many videos, very authentic videos, showing | :05:03. | :05:13. | |
:05:13. | :05:14. | ||
massacres and people being killed. We knew very well that there were | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
so many thugs, and the security forces were invading villages, | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
stealing everything, massacring people, raping women, that was too | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
much for the Syrian people to take over ten months. So they started | :05:23. | :05:33. | |
:05:33. | :05:43. | ||
carrying arms. That is one part. I take your point. But I want to be | :05:43. | :05:51. | |
very specific about one particular aspect of the current situation. If | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
there is to be any hope of the ceasefire, the pressure has to be | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
put on Damascus to pull the troops out of the key towns and cities, | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
but the other question is whether you in the political leadership of | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
the Syrian National Council, are clearly telling fighters on the | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
ground, the Free Syrian Army and other rebel fighters as well, that | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
they must stop all of their activities. Are you delivering that | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
message to them? That message is very clear to them. The problem is | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
whether the regular army will stop killing them if they abide by this | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
plan, if they do not shoot at anybody, they have to retaliate | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
when they are shot at, you must have seen yesterday and before | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
yesterday how the regular army attacked or targeted refugees, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
peaceful refugees crossing the border, seeking refuge in Turkey | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
and yet they were fired at by the regime. The question is not the | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
Free Syrian Army, it is the regular army. It is a big army and it does | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
not want to stop. We cannot ask people not to defend themselves | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
when they are attacked. There is a bigger question about whether Kofi | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
Annan can engineer a dialogue, negotiation, between the opposition | :06:55. | :07:04. | |
:07:05. | :07:14. | ||
forces and the Syrian government. Let us be clear, is the Syrian | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
National Council prepared to talk to the Assad regime? This is a very | :07:18. | :07:28. | |
:07:28. | :07:34. | ||
important point. Everybody has been falling in the trap of the regime. | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
The Arab plan, as well as the Kofi Annan plan, had two items that were | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
supposed to be implemented first, which is a ceasefire and | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
withdrawing the army from the cities. Before doing that, there is | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
no possibility for any dialogue, you cannot have a dialogue with a | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
pistol pointed at your head. These two items, these things have never | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
been agreed with by the regime. How can we move on from one phase to | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
another when the army is still there, still killing people, | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
attacking everybody, and also arresting everybody. You keep | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
coming back to the point about the continued violence. I take that | :08:11. | :08:21. | |
:08:21. | :08:24. | ||
point. But let us assume that Kofi Annan is right in his optimistic | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
assessment that in the next few hours, there is a prospect of | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
Syrian forces being pulled back. I want to know if that disengagement | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
can be achieved, are you prepared to talk to the Assad regime? We are | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
talking about things in the future that one cannot make sure of. If | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
the regime stops the violence, then there is the prospect of the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
opposition sitting and discussing the transition period, that is not | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
a difficult thing. We know that in every war, in every conflict, at | :08:56. | :09:06. | |
:09:06. | :09:18. | ||
the end, there should be a political solution. That is very | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
important, because back in January, you said this, and I am quoting, | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
"We in the opposition will never accept to sit at the same table as | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
this killer", by which of course you meant Bashar al-Assad. You have | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
changed your position. It is not a change of position. We did not | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
expect him to sit at the table anyway. We are very realistic, and | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
we are now trying to discuss a hypothetical situation which in our | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
mind, will never happen. This regime would never give up, would | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
never follow any peaceful solution, because at any moment that the | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
troops are all withdrawn from the cities, they know that hundreds of | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
thousands would demonstrate in the streets, we have only the example | :09:56. | :09:57. | |
of Hama, where peaceful demonstrations were allowed, | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
hundreds of thousands of people came into the street. That is the | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
situation on the ground. Discussing hypothetical questions is not | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
useful at this moment. You are a former Syrian diplomat. You know in | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the end that language and tone, these things are very important. I | :10:17. | :10:27. | |
:10:27. | :10:28. | ||
suspect that you have changed your tone a little bit. The Russians | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
have said in the last 24 hours they would like to host a conference to | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
prepare for the national dialogue that Kofi Annan has talked so much | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
about. Would you be prepared to send a delegation to Moscow to | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
attend that sort of negotiation? Also a hypothetical question, if | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
the conditions are right, then I think that the Syrian National | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
Council will participate in negotiations for the transitional | :10:52. | :11:02. | |
:11:02. | :11:08. | ||
period. If the conference has the right conditions, when all | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
conditions are met, it is not a problem to sit and discuss the | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
phase to come after the stepping down of the president. The Russians | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
didn't say anything about the stepping down of the President. | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
they want to host a conference, they must take into consideration | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
the desires of the other parties. They are representing the Syrian | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
regime in what they are doing, also in delivering arms and support. | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
Let's make this as simple as possible, you are saying that in | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
your opinion, there is no possibility of an end to the | :11:43. | :11:50. | |
violence, an end to the conflict, until Assad and his regime are gone. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
This is not our condition, it is his condition. They will not move | :11:56. | :12:04. | |
from power until he's forced to do so. It is not our condition, it is | :12:04. | :12:14. | |
:12:14. | :12:16. | ||
their demand. The problem with this regime is that it is based on power | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
and strength and violence and corruption and the security forces | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
and army. If you remove any of those faces, the whole regime will | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
collapse. They have committed so many crimes already they know they | :12:26. | :12:36. | |
:12:36. | :12:40. | ||
will go to the Hague. What will it take to remove him? It will take | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
one of two things. Either the revolution continues until the | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
people achieve their freedom, or the Syrian people will have some | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
assistance from the world community which has been so passive so far in | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
perhaps establishing a buffer zone, or some kind od intervention that | :12:56. | :13:06. | |
:13:06. | :13:12. | ||
would stop the bloodshed in Syria. -- of intervention. You have | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
changed your position. Last year you did not want outside military | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
intervention. Now you personally are calling for international | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
protection of civilians in buffer zones, and you know that cannot | :13:24. | :13:34. | |
:13:34. | :13:36. | ||
happen without military It is not military intervention on | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
the lines of the type in Libya. There was a no-fly zone on the | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
north of Iraq for some time. That type of no-fly zone could be | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
protected by the Free Syrian Army. You do not need to send a foreign | :13:52. | :14:00. | |
army. We can do the job. You are being economical with reality. | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
Given the deployment of Syrian forces in the towns and cities | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
across the country that you have referred to in this interview, it | :14:07. | :14:15. | |
is obvious that to create buffer zones, you will have to bomb them. | :14:15. | :14:21. | |
Is that what you want? The Free Syrian Army has been able to take | :14:21. | :14:31. | |
:14:31. | :14:43. | ||
some areas inside Syria. It is astonishing that so few soldiers | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
could have opposed this regular army. They could do the same in the | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
buffer zone. I have been in contact with officers in the Free Syrian | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
Army and they have been telling me that they just need air protection. | :14:54. | :15:02. | |
You talk about it is if it is just a simple thing to deliver. The | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
United States has made it clear that the idea of sending US forces | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
as part of an international air force to bomb Syria's tanks and | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
heavy artillery is an escalation that they feel would be unwise and | :15:12. | :15:22. | |
:15:22. | :15:23. | ||
deeply unacceptabl. That is why we are not asking them to do that. | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
have given up on them. We have given up on intervention. What we | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
are talking about is simpler. The reason why the regular army has | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
been able to beat the Free Syrian Army out of those areas is because | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:52. | ||
it used helicopters and because it used immense power. The Free Syrian | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
Army had no more ammunition to defend themselves. If you think | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
about the buffer zone in a different way, it is another thing. | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Some weapons were given to the Free Syrian Army. They should be given | :16:02. | :16:12. | |
:16:12. | :16:14. | ||
more. The ability to themselves, at least. I am not talking out of my | :16:14. | :16:21. | |
own experience. We have got good experience with the regular army. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
This regular army is not fighting the way that any army would fight. | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
They are compelled to fight their fellow-citizens and their fellow | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
army who defected from them. raise an interesting question about | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
the Free Syrian Army. You refer to it as being a separate entity from | :16:35. | :16:45. | |
:16:45. | :16:48. | ||
their national council. I have seen it reported that the Free Syrian | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
Army needs $1 million a day to sustain itself. We know that Saudi | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
Arabia and Qatar are pouring money in. They know that you are getting | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
limited non-lethal support from the United States and the UK government | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
and others too. Who is in control here? Is it the former generals, | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
the dissident generals who are running the Free Syrian Army? | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
are talking about money or assistance pouring in, this is | :17:10. | :17:20. | |
:17:20. | :17:24. | ||
exaggerated. That was not the question. You are asking who is | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
leading. It is a group of very able officers who are running the Free | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
Syrian Army. This is outside Syria. Inside Syria, there is the local | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
military council. The north, the south, the middle, these are | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
councils that are co-ordinating with the leadership on the Turkish | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
border. They have got some strong co-ordination and some freedom in | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
what they do. At the end of the day, I know very well that they have a | :17:52. | :18:02. | |
:18:02. | :18:03. | ||
chain of command. They can be proven to be one entity. Something | :18:03. | :18:12. | |
has changed. You told the AFP news agency that your agency had lost | :18:12. | :18:22. | |
:18:22. | :18:25. | ||
I did not say that. I remember very well but at that time, the Free | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
Syrian Army was not so well- organised as it is now. I'll tell | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
you what the reason is, at that time, it was not as militarised as | :18:35. | :18:45. | |
:18:45. | :18:49. | ||
it is now. People started to realise that it is very important | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
for them to start working on military lines. You said something | :18:54. | :19:04. | |
:19:04. | :19:05. | ||
interesting. You used the word eager. It seems that now there is | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
an eagerness on the opposition's part to make this a fully-fledged | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
military confrontation. You have ruled out the diplomatic path. | :19:10. | :19:19. | |
These things impose themselves. When you see so many massacres, in | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
Baba Amr, in Damascus, in every city, you realise that there is | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
only one way to fight this regime and that is by countering it by the | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
:19:37. | :19:37. | ||
same method, violence. We know the scale of the violence. When people | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
look at the situation from the outside, one big problem that they | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
see when addressing the needs and the demands of the Syrian | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
opposition is a lack of unity. They have seen, in the recent past, you | :19:48. | :19:58. | |
:19:58. | :20:02. | ||
have lost some key figures who have walked out in disgust. One man | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
spoke about chaos and a lack of clarity in your organisation. | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
Another highly respected political prisoner and activist and ruler of | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
opposition movements said the SNC is incapable of meeting the | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
aspirations of the Syrian people. He said it was being run | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
essentially in the interest of the Muslim Brotherhood. First of all, | :20:21. | :20:31. | |
:20:31. | :20:36. | ||
let me say that these are not key figures. This is something else. | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
Politicians that were very active in the Spring of Damascus have | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
nothing to do with the revolution. This was started from the | :20:43. | :20:52. | |
:20:53. | :20:56. | ||
grassroots. You are talking about the leadership of the Syrian | :20:56. | :21:04. | |
National Council. This is another matter. A few people did not like | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
the leadership and they walked out and demanded restructuring. That | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
restructuring is taking place. A committee has been established | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
which includes the same people who walked out. There will be another | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
conference in one or two weeks in order to bring everybody together. | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
The SNC and other figures are working very hard. It is | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
interesting. You sound so confident about that. You are a diplomat and | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
you worked for the Assad regime. You switched sides. You have joined | :21:34. | :21:44. | |
:21:44. | :21:45. | ||
the opposition. You are no fan of the Islamist agenda and the Muslim | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
Brotherhood or you would not have worked for the Assad regime for so | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
long. Are you worried about the dominant influence of the Islamists | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
inside the SNC? Let me correct this. You are making switching sides | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
sound so terrible. There is an important difference between being | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
a diplomat and a politician. Diplomats do not make decisions. | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Politicians make decisions. I was not working for the regime, I was | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
working in the government. Hundreds of thousands were working in the | :22:13. | :22:20. | |
government. You cannot say that all of them were working for the regime. | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
You can only do the best you can. Sometimes you do not do what you | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
are told and that is why I resigned. You have not answered my question. | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Are you happy that the Islamists are increasingly dominant in your | :22:33. | :22:43. | |
:22:43. | :22:43. | ||
movement? If they are dominant, this is another matter. The SNC has | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
only one representative of the Muslim Brotherhood out of 11 | :22:46. | :22:56. | |
:22:56. | :22:59. | ||
members. Only one of them is a representative of the Muslim | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
Brotherhood. There are so many people in the SNC and most of them | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
are living outside Syria. That is what makes up the SNC. There will | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
be another SNC elected from inside Syria. This is a transitional body | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
at the moment that is doing something that was asked by the | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
revolutionaries, present them to the external world. One final | :23:23. | :23:31. | |
thought. You have made it plain throughout this interview that you | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
believe peace, stability, freedom can only come when the Assad regime | :23:34. | :23:43. | |
is toppled. Let me quote to you the words of the foreign minister in | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
Moscow. Even if the opposition is armed to the teeth, it won't defeat | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
the Syrian army but there will be slaughter for many years, a mutual | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
destruction. He, unfortunately, is probably going to be right, isn't | :23:53. | :24:02. | |
he? Syria is not a violent country. We are peace-loving people. They | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
waited ten months before they took up arms. People want to live in | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
peace. People do not want violence. People want to have their freedom | :24:09. | :24:19. |