Mohammad Bassam Imadi - Syrian National Council HARDtalk


Mohammad Bassam Imadi - Syrian National Council

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jailed for 11 years. He started... Now it is time for HARDtalk.

:00:12.:00:15.

Is there any life left in Kofi Annan's peace plan for Syria? In

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recent days, Syrian security forces have shown no sign of pulling back

:00:19.:00:22.

from key towns and cities, as envisaged by the UN special envoy

:00:22.:00:25.

Kofi Annan. But as the deadline for disengagement approaches, he

:00:25.:00:30.

refuses to give up hope. The coming hours will be pivotal for the Assad

:00:30.:00:36.

regime and for the Syrian rebels. My guest is Mohammad Bassam Imadi,

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a former Syrian diplomat now on the foreign relations committee of the

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Syrian National Council. Does Syria's opposition have a coherent

:00:47.:00:57.
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strategy, and if so, what is it? Mohammad Bassam Imadi, in Istanbul,

:01:17.:01:27.
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welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Let's start with Kofi Annan. He

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says he remains hopeful that Syrian forces will adhere to his peace

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plan, that is a ceasefire and disengagement over the next few

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hours. Do you have any hope? He is a very optimistic man. It is very

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evident that the regime is not going to abide by his plan at all.

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They said very frankly that they wanted some conditions to be

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implemented, these conditions are impossible, so it is very obvious

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that the regime is not going to abide by the plan. If you are

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talking about conditions, they seem to have changed somewhat. The

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Syrian government were talking about getting written assurances

:02:13.:02:16.

from the opposition that your forces will lay down their arms.

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They have abandoned that. The foreign minister has said that he

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was no longer expecting to see these written assurances from your

:02:31.:02:35.

side, so, on that basis, maybe there is room for hope. I have to

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make it clear that the opposition has no forces. There is a Free

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Syrian Army which is an entity by itself. Then there is the Syrian

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National Council which is a political body. These two things

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:02:55.:02:58.

are not one body. But we have an advantage that the Free Syrian Army

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have declared they will abide by the plan, they have given five days,

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I think, for the Syrian regime to abide by the plan. If not, they

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will be free to defend themselves. The Free Syrian Army is not an army

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attacking the regular army, it is an army that is defending itself,

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defending the cities, and that is the situation. There is a

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misunderstanding that the Free Syrian Army is trying to attack

:03:24.:03:29.

some barracks or some army units, but that is not true. The beginning

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of the Free Syrian Army was a few soldiers who defected from the

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military, and they were targeted by the regime, so they had to run away

:03:37.:03:40.

and find places to hide and defend themselves. Another purpose for the

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Free Syrian Army was to protect civilians. And this is a little bit

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:04:00.:04:02.

chicken and egg. On the other side, Foreign Minister, saying, he said

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this just a few hours ago, he said the Syrian government has withdrawn

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army units from some provinces, and terrorism activity, as he described

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it, escalated and spread into other areas. He is saying that as they

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pull back forces from some areas, the Free Syrian Army moves in and

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conducts operations against them. This man has no credibility any

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more, if he had any in the past. First of all, he said they withdrew

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some units from some places, in fact, nothing was withdrawn. We

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should remind everybody that at the beginning, the revolution was very

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peaceful, the Syrian people refused to hold arms against this regime,

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they continued for 9-10 months demonstrating very peacefully in

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the streets, but this oppressive solution that this regime has

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followed has forced them to hold arms to defend themselves. You must

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have heard and seen so many videos, very authentic videos, showing

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massacres and people being killed. We knew very well that there were

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so many thugs, and the security forces were invading villages,

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stealing everything, massacring people, raping women, that was too

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much for the Syrian people to take over ten months. So they started

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:05:33.:05:43.

carrying arms. That is one part. I take your point. But I want to be

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very specific about one particular aspect of the current situation. If

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there is to be any hope of the ceasefire, the pressure has to be

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put on Damascus to pull the troops out of the key towns and cities,

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but the other question is whether you in the political leadership of

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the Syrian National Council, are clearly telling fighters on the

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ground, the Free Syrian Army and other rebel fighters as well, that

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they must stop all of their activities. Are you delivering that

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message to them? That message is very clear to them. The problem is

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whether the regular army will stop killing them if they abide by this

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plan, if they do not shoot at anybody, they have to retaliate

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when they are shot at, you must have seen yesterday and before

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yesterday how the regular army attacked or targeted refugees,

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peaceful refugees crossing the border, seeking refuge in Turkey

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and yet they were fired at by the regime. The question is not the

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Free Syrian Army, it is the regular army. It is a big army and it does

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not want to stop. We cannot ask people not to defend themselves

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when they are attacked. There is a bigger question about whether Kofi

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Annan can engineer a dialogue, negotiation, between the opposition

:06:55.:07:04.
:07:05.:07:14.

forces and the Syrian government. Let us be clear, is the Syrian

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National Council prepared to talk to the Assad regime? This is a very

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important point. Everybody has been falling in the trap of the regime.

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The Arab plan, as well as the Kofi Annan plan, had two items that were

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supposed to be implemented first, which is a ceasefire and

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withdrawing the army from the cities. Before doing that, there is

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no possibility for any dialogue, you cannot have a dialogue with a

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pistol pointed at your head. These two items, these things have never

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been agreed with by the regime. How can we move on from one phase to

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another when the army is still there, still killing people,

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attacking everybody, and also arresting everybody. You keep

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coming back to the point about the continued violence. I take that

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:08:21.:08:24.

point. But let us assume that Kofi Annan is right in his optimistic

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assessment that in the next few hours, there is a prospect of

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Syrian forces being pulled back. I want to know if that disengagement

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can be achieved, are you prepared to talk to the Assad regime? We are

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talking about things in the future that one cannot make sure of. If

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the regime stops the violence, then there is the prospect of the

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opposition sitting and discussing the transition period, that is not

:08:50.:08:56.

a difficult thing. We know that in every war, in every conflict, at

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the end, there should be a political solution. That is very

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important, because back in January, you said this, and I am quoting,

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"We in the opposition will never accept to sit at the same table as

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this killer", by which of course you meant Bashar al-Assad. You have

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changed your position. It is not a change of position. We did not

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expect him to sit at the table anyway. We are very realistic, and

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we are now trying to discuss a hypothetical situation which in our

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mind, will never happen. This regime would never give up, would

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never follow any peaceful solution, because at any moment that the

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troops are all withdrawn from the cities, they know that hundreds of

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thousands would demonstrate in the streets, we have only the example

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of Hama, where peaceful demonstrations were allowed,

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hundreds of thousands of people came into the street. That is the

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situation on the ground. Discussing hypothetical questions is not

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useful at this moment. You are a former Syrian diplomat. You know in

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the end that language and tone, these things are very important. I

:10:17.:10:27.
:10:27.:10:28.

suspect that you have changed your tone a little bit. The Russians

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have said in the last 24 hours they would like to host a conference to

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prepare for the national dialogue that Kofi Annan has talked so much

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about. Would you be prepared to send a delegation to Moscow to

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attend that sort of negotiation? Also a hypothetical question, if

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the conditions are right, then I think that the Syrian National

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Council will participate in negotiations for the transitional

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:11:02.:11:08.

period. If the conference has the right conditions, when all

:11:08.:11:11.

conditions are met, it is not a problem to sit and discuss the

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phase to come after the stepping down of the president. The Russians

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didn't say anything about the stepping down of the President.

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they want to host a conference, they must take into consideration

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the desires of the other parties. They are representing the Syrian

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regime in what they are doing, also in delivering arms and support.

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Let's make this as simple as possible, you are saying that in

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your opinion, there is no possibility of an end to the

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violence, an end to the conflict, until Assad and his regime are gone.

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This is not our condition, it is his condition. They will not move

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from power until he's forced to do so. It is not our condition, it is

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their demand. The problem with this regime is that it is based on power

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and strength and violence and corruption and the security forces

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and army. If you remove any of those faces, the whole regime will

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collapse. They have committed so many crimes already they know they

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:12:36.:12:40.

will go to the Hague. What will it take to remove him? It will take

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one of two things. Either the revolution continues until the

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people achieve their freedom, or the Syrian people will have some

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assistance from the world community which has been so passive so far in

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perhaps establishing a buffer zone, or some kind od intervention that

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would stop the bloodshed in Syria. -- of intervention. You have

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changed your position. Last year you did not want outside military

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intervention. Now you personally are calling for international

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protection of civilians in buffer zones, and you know that cannot

:13:24.:13:34.
:13:34.:13:36.

happen without military It is not military intervention on

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the lines of the type in Libya. There was a no-fly zone on the

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north of Iraq for some time. That type of no-fly zone could be

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protected by the Free Syrian Army. You do not need to send a foreign

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army. We can do the job. You are being economical with reality.

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Given the deployment of Syrian forces in the towns and cities

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across the country that you have referred to in this interview, it

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is obvious that to create buffer zones, you will have to bomb them.

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Is that what you want? The Free Syrian Army has been able to take

:14:21.:14:31.
:14:31.:14:43.

some areas inside Syria. It is astonishing that so few soldiers

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could have opposed this regular army. They could do the same in the

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buffer zone. I have been in contact with officers in the Free Syrian

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Army and they have been telling me that they just need air protection.

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You talk about it is if it is just a simple thing to deliver. The

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United States has made it clear that the idea of sending US forces

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as part of an international air force to bomb Syria's tanks and

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heavy artillery is an escalation that they feel would be unwise and

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deeply unacceptabl. That is why we are not asking them to do that.

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have given up on them. We have given up on intervention. What we

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are talking about is simpler. The reason why the regular army has

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been able to beat the Free Syrian Army out of those areas is because

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:15:47.:15:52.

it used helicopters and because it used immense power. The Free Syrian

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Army had no more ammunition to defend themselves. If you think

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about the buffer zone in a different way, it is another thing.

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Some weapons were given to the Free Syrian Army. They should be given

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more. The ability to themselves, at least. I am not talking out of my

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own experience. We have got good experience with the regular army.

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This regular army is not fighting the way that any army would fight.

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They are compelled to fight their fellow-citizens and their fellow

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army who defected from them. raise an interesting question about

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the Free Syrian Army. You refer to it as being a separate entity from

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their national council. I have seen it reported that the Free Syrian

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Army needs $1 million a day to sustain itself. We know that Saudi

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Arabia and Qatar are pouring money in. They know that you are getting

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limited non-lethal support from the United States and the UK government

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and others too. Who is in control here? Is it the former generals,

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the dissident generals who are running the Free Syrian Army?

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are talking about money or assistance pouring in, this is

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exaggerated. That was not the question. You are asking who is

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leading. It is a group of very able officers who are running the Free

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Syrian Army. This is outside Syria. Inside Syria, there is the local

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military council. The north, the south, the middle, these are

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councils that are co-ordinating with the leadership on the Turkish

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border. They have got some strong co-ordination and some freedom in

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what they do. At the end of the day, I know very well that they have a

:17:52.:18:02.
:18:02.:18:03.

chain of command. They can be proven to be one entity. Something

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has changed. You told the AFP news agency that your agency had lost

:18:12.:18:22.
:18:22.:18:25.

I did not say that. I remember very well but at that time, the Free

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Syrian Army was not so well- organised as it is now. I'll tell

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you what the reason is, at that time, it was not as militarised as

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:18:45.:18:49.

it is now. People started to realise that it is very important

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for them to start working on military lines. You said something

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:19:04.:19:05.

interesting. You used the word eager. It seems that now there is

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an eagerness on the opposition's part to make this a fully-fledged

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military confrontation. You have ruled out the diplomatic path.

:19:10.:19:19.

These things impose themselves. When you see so many massacres, in

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Baba Amr, in Damascus, in every city, you realise that there is

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only one way to fight this regime and that is by countering it by the

:19:27.:19:37.
:19:37.:19:37.

same method, violence. We know the scale of the violence. When people

:19:37.:19:40.

look at the situation from the outside, one big problem that they

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see when addressing the needs and the demands of the Syrian

:19:43.:19:48.

opposition is a lack of unity. They have seen, in the recent past, you

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:19:58.:20:02.

have lost some key figures who have walked out in disgust. One man

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spoke about chaos and a lack of clarity in your organisation.

:20:05.:20:08.

Another highly respected political prisoner and activist and ruler of

:20:08.:20:11.

opposition movements said the SNC is incapable of meeting the

:20:11.:20:17.

aspirations of the Syrian people. He said it was being run

:20:17.:20:21.

essentially in the interest of the Muslim Brotherhood. First of all,

:20:21.:20:31.
:20:31.:20:36.

let me say that these are not key figures. This is something else.

:20:36.:20:39.

Politicians that were very active in the Spring of Damascus have

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nothing to do with the revolution. This was started from the

:20:43.:20:52.
:20:53.:20:56.

grassroots. You are talking about the leadership of the Syrian

:20:56.:21:04.

National Council. This is another matter. A few people did not like

:21:04.:21:07.

the leadership and they walked out and demanded restructuring. That

:21:07.:21:09.

restructuring is taking place. A committee has been established

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which includes the same people who walked out. There will be another

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conference in one or two weeks in order to bring everybody together.

:21:17.:21:20.

The SNC and other figures are working very hard. It is

:21:20.:21:27.

interesting. You sound so confident about that. You are a diplomat and

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you worked for the Assad regime. You switched sides. You have joined

:21:34.:21:44.
:21:44.:21:45.

the opposition. You are no fan of the Islamist agenda and the Muslim

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Brotherhood or you would not have worked for the Assad regime for so

:21:49.:21:52.

long. Are you worried about the dominant influence of the Islamists

:21:52.:21:58.

inside the SNC? Let me correct this. You are making switching sides

:21:58.:22:02.

sound so terrible. There is an important difference between being

:22:02.:22:05.

a diplomat and a politician. Diplomats do not make decisions.

:22:05.:22:09.

Politicians make decisions. I was not working for the regime, I was

:22:09.:22:13.

working in the government. Hundreds of thousands were working in the

:22:13.:22:20.

government. You cannot say that all of them were working for the regime.

:22:20.:22:24.

You can only do the best you can. Sometimes you do not do what you

:22:24.:22:29.

are told and that is why I resigned. You have not answered my question.

:22:29.:22:33.

Are you happy that the Islamists are increasingly dominant in your

:22:33.:22:43.
:22:43.:22:43.

movement? If they are dominant, this is another matter. The SNC has

:22:43.:22:46.

only one representative of the Muslim Brotherhood out of 11

:22:46.:22:56.
:22:56.:22:59.

members. Only one of them is a representative of the Muslim

:23:00.:23:03.

Brotherhood. There are so many people in the SNC and most of them

:23:03.:23:07.

are living outside Syria. That is what makes up the SNC. There will

:23:07.:23:12.

be another SNC elected from inside Syria. This is a transitional body

:23:12.:23:15.

at the moment that is doing something that was asked by the

:23:16.:23:23.

revolutionaries, present them to the external world. One final

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thought. You have made it plain throughout this interview that you

:23:31.:23:34.

believe peace, stability, freedom can only come when the Assad regime

:23:34.:23:43.

is toppled. Let me quote to you the words of the foreign minister in

:23:43.:23:47.

Moscow. Even if the opposition is armed to the teeth, it won't defeat

:23:47.:23:51.

the Syrian army but there will be slaughter for many years, a mutual

:23:51.:23:53.

destruction. He, unfortunately, is probably going to be right, isn't

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he? Syria is not a violent country. We are peace-loving people. They

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waited ten months before they took up arms. People want to live in

:24:05.:24:09.

peace. People do not want violence. People want to have their freedom

:24:09.:24:19.

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