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minutes. Now it is time for HARDtalk. | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
From Syria, to Sri Lanka, to Russia, there are journalists ready to put | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
themselves in harm's way to shine a light on some of the darkest | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
corners of conflict, crime and corruption. What makes them do it? | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
And what difference do they make? I speak to British photo journalist | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
Paul Conroy who was wounded in the Syrian army's bombardment of the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
city of Homs last February which killed his Sunday Times colleague | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
Marie Colvin. When, if ever, is telling the story worth risking | :00:36. | :00:46. | |
:00:46. | :01:10. | ||
your life? Paul Conroy, welcome to HARDtalk. | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
Thank you. It is very good to see you, but how is your health? I had | :01:18. | :01:26. | |
some small shrapnel injuries that were taking care. It is slowly | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
coming together, it is slightly prone to infection but they are | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
making progress. They are cutting the dead meat out as it starts to | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
seal up. Another month or two. sound very matter of fact. When we | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
are thinking about what you have been through it is not just a | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
question of the physical injuries, it is eight weeks on - how are the | :01:49. | :01:58. | |
mental scars? At the moment - I got out and I launched myself into | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
keeping busy, rather than sitting back and reflecting. I have been | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
assured it will come, that point were a stop and... At the moment I | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
just keep busy, writing, doing interviews. Really just not | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
reflecting too much is the advice I have been given by professionals. | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
suspect for the next 20 minutes I may have to break that rule and ask | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
you to reflect on what you went through because the very obvious | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
opener in terms of casting your mind back is this one - that you | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
and the other journalists, including Marie Colvin, who chose | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
to going to Homs at a time when it was under siege, you knew what | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
you're getting yourself into? Absolutely. We were under no | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
illusions about what was happening in Homs. The videos came out, they | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
were on YouTube. They lose a lot of strength when they are televised | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
because it is always with a precursor - this can't be confirmed | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
or this can't be verified. In the world's I, the moment you put "this | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
can't be verified", it opens it up to misinterpretation by everybody, | :03:16. | :03:24. | |
and the regime works on that. I think it is not enough. If it needs | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
verification then it is a sad state of affairs - it is sad that we need | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
people to go in it and actually be Western and the official | :03:33. | :03:43. | |
journalists to make it real... will talk more about that, the | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
relationship between Western journalists and activist, because | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
you were very involved with local people. Talking over the events | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
that fell upon you in February. Getting in was difficult because it | :03:53. | :03:59. | |
was around at a new wanted to get into a besieged area. It was | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
besieged by tanks and heavy artillery. I wonder whether you and | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
Marie Colvin - you were working together - were you really honest | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
:04:17. | :04:18. | ||
with each other about the scale of the risks you are running -- you | :04:18. | :04:25. | |
were running? We got in it at around midnight through some very | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
precarious situations. The first time we got in - you go through a | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
three kilometre tunnel and there is a walk. You can hear it, you know | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
the risks are mounting. We spent two Mods in Ms rata together. -- | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
two-month. We had worked together in those conditions. We thought we | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
were going into another MS Ra to a situation. We both went "well, we | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
have done it before, let's do it again". Arriving in Syria at | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
daybreak, we realised it was on another scale. At that point, did | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
you and she looked at each other and say, will "this may have been a | :05:12. | :05:22. | |
:05:22. | :05:27. | ||
mistake" was that no, we never thought that. -- mistake? We were | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
glad to be in. You got access to places very few other journalists | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
got to. You're at the centre of a story the world cared about a great | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
deal. There is this balance - a trade-off of great danger. You | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
served in the military, you have been a photojournalist for 20 years, | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
ready to go to dangerous places, but I assume, you have never gone | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
into a place thinking that there is a probability that you may get | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
wounded or even killed. Surely, you can't think that, can you? | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
never think that. When I left for this trip everyone was saying they | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
didn't feel good about it - it was really dangerous. You don't think | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
you are bullet-proof but obviously you think if anything will happen | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
it won't be to you. That is the mental state you have to have. You | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
can't go into these places thinking that you are going to die. You take | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
what precautions you can, you take all of the advice and soak up | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
information about the situation but you can't go into these places - | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
you can't go in thinking that, it would kill you. When your mind goes | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
on to that you are more at risk because you are less aware of your | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
environment. You saw the most terrible things in Syria, because | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
this was the height of the period of bombardment when the Syrian army | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
outside the neighbourhood was sending in heavy fire. It went on | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
for days. Do you now think you should have left earlier? We went | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
in twice. The first time we reported, we reported from a field | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
hospital. In the end the decision was taken out of our hands. The | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
activists and the Free Syrian Army told us that they had information | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
there would be a land invasion. They got on smack out through the | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
tunnel, it was very hasty -- they got us out. There was a real fear | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
that the troops were coming in that night, there would be a sort. We | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
got out in a hurry. We spent about three days outside in a village | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
close by trying to get angles we could cover the story from. We | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
couldn't communicate with the next city - that's how bad the situation | :07:56. | :08:06. | |
:08:06. | :08:14. | ||
was. We decided to go back into Baba Amr. Obviously with the people | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
lie dead, the people wounded - it would be good to have that | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
hindsight. We knew what we were getting ourselves into, hopefully | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
it was making a difference. That is why that path was taken. So much of | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
what you say is fascinating. I think people around the world would | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
think carefully about the phrases you are using. You hoped you were | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
making a difference, you were getting the story. As you look back | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
now, eight weeks later, do you think you made a difference was | :08:46. | :08:56. | |
:08:56. | :08:59. | ||
that I think we did. I hope we did. What was happening before - | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
unfortunately, we wait for an atrocity. Sadly, with Marie Colvin | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
dying and my situation, the situation in that city hopefully | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
took things to another level of awareness. In at tragic way, with | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
Marie Colvin, because she was so well known and well respected. Her | :09:21. | :09:31. | |
I have attempted to keep that light shining. I would like to dig into | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
your analysis of what is happening in Syria today because you have | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
connections and contacts. To finish with this story that you have been | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
through in the last few weeks - your luck ran out on February 22nd. | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
That is when the direct fire landed on the house you were using as a | :09:49. | :09:58. | |
media safe house. Marie Colvin was killed instantly? Yes. We took | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
three hits on the house. It was the fourth Shell where the back wall | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
fell in, I think one of the upper walls were hit and it was chaos. | :10:10. | :10:19. | |
Blackness. Concrete dust. Many injuries. Other people were killed. | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Other wounded journalists. Syrians as well. Shrapnel and broken bones. | :10:25. | :10:34. | |
:10:35. | :10:44. | ||
Our ran -- our Trans later had his arm snapped. The two met | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
journalists I was with died instantly, there is no doubt about | :10:47. | :10:55. | |
that. I caught the edge of the blast. You say you feel the need to | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
ask I ask | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
ask you one more question - Ma Colvin was dead and you were in a | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
bad situation, wounded in the lake. You needed to get out but you were | :11:06. | :11:15. | |
stuck there for several more days. out, safe passage for you to leave | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
that terrible situation and you refused to take it. | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
name name names, but when the Red | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
Crescent came to the House the Free Syrian Army were naturally | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
they had been allowed in. a | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
a lot of commotion. Eventually one of the people from the Red Crescent | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
entered the room that the four journalists were in and he said "if | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
you want my advice you will wait for at the International Red Cross | :11:46. | :11:53. | |
and the diplomatic presence. I have been were ordered by my government | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
to enter over to security forces at the gates of the city. If you want | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
my advice, you will wait for the Red Cross".put | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
you in a difficult situation. I suppose the only problem with the | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
decision you talk is that the Red Cross were not coming - in the end, | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
you were smuggled out by helpers and activis | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
alongside you. In the cause of that, by not taking the Red Crescent | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
option, we or so Syrian people who were | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
helping, not just you, but the number of wounded people to get out, | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
were killed in that dangerous operation. That must be difficult. | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
That is very difficult. I don't think there is a day that goes by | :12:41. | :12:50. | |
we don't think of those people. I out, nobody was killed, but the | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
tunnel was attacked. I think this goes back to the heart of what we | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
do and why just people - casual people - these | :13:00. | :13:10. | |
:13:10. | :13:10. | ||
were people we had a relationship with. They took us in, they fed us. | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
They understand, because of their situation. They understand the need | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
to get the story out from a Western journalist. It is difficult, no | :13:20. | :13:30. | |
:13:30. | :13:31. | ||
doubt. I don't sit and think"if we had an air ambulance, people would | :13:31. | :13:41. | |
:13:41. | :13:42. | ||
be alive ". People understand we are risking a lot by going in. We | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
knew the people who took us-mac out. They were not just individuals. | :13:48. | :13:58. | |
:13:58. | :13:59. | ||
telling ambulance". That was long before an | :13:59. | :14:07. | |
ambulance arrived. It's difficult, from | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
from local them They're doing video journalism, | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
photography. In a way, by associating with people like you | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
enormous da enormous danger. I wondered if, | :14:24. | :14:34. | |
:14:34. | :14:37. | ||
sometimes, you felt that your I am sure prisons did make it worse. | :14:37. | :14:46. | |
house house was attacked. It is very | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
difficult for people on the outside to see the perspective that we had. | :14:52. | :15:00. | |
These people were taking us through the backstreets. If we told them | :15:00. | :15:08. | |
that we were putting them in danger they would have laughed. Another | :15:08. | :15:18. | |
:15:18. | :15:18. | ||
Syrian military. It is possible he is undergoing a very difficult | :15:18. | :15:28. | |
:15:28. | :15:37. | ||
situation. It feels strange to be war special ones are made. Are you | :15:37. | :15:47. | |
:15:47. | :15:52. | ||
observer? Absolutely. But I could not exactly come in and ask the | :15:52. | :16:01. | |
Syrian army if I could watch them at shelling Baba Amr. But you have | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
to stay impartial. It is quite easy to stay impartial. I am a | :16:06. | :16:16. | |
:16:16. | :16:18. | ||
photographer. I've put up what I saw and I photographed that. Can | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
you look at a picture of a day that child and asked if that is | :16:23. | :16:32. | |
impartial journalism? Maybe if I had taken it from a different angle, | :16:32. | :16:42. | |
:16:42. | :16:44. | ||
were some very striking things written after Euro Colley died. -- | :16:44. | :16:53. | |
your colleagues. Someone said that they were troubled by the amount of | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
coverage given to what had happened to Western journalists. He said | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
there was something faintly colonialisting. | :17:02. | :17:12. | |
We have bee to the war correspondent being a hero that | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
they have become more important than the people they report on. Do | :17:18. | :17:28. | |
:17:28. | :17:29. | ||
you agree on him a? I agree with him. I wish it did not happen. I | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
would much rather talk about the women and children sitting under | :17:34. | :17:44. | |
mortar fire mortar firech of what they suffered. I have a small | :17:44. | :17:52. | |
level of suffering in comparison. I understand the mediathe media | :17:52. | :18:02. | |
:18:02. | :18:03. | ||
more or safe headlines. But I do not think that is good. Because you | :18:03. | :18:11. | |
have spent a long time observing the Free Syrian Army, do you | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
believe they are a credible and coherent fomme I | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
spoke to a senior figure inside the Syrian National Council. He said | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
that if only more resources could go to these people they would be | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
able to get rid of the Assad regime. Do you believe that? Were | :18:35. | :18:45. | |
:18:45. | :18:52. | ||
artistically even if it could be developed. -- logistically. As an | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
:19:02. | :19:02. | ||
armed force in Homs they worked To take that on to the scale needed | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
to take dowime would be incredibly difficult. They would | :19:09. | :19:19. | |
:19:19. | :19:25. | ||
They are very localised. Whereas in Libya the heavy weaponry was in -- | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
available. And from what you have seen of the civilian population and | :19:32. | :19:42. | |
:19:42. | :19:50. | ||
that President Assad can impose his will and authority on Syria? No. I | :19:50. | :19:57. | |
think the genie is out of the bottle. Regardless of the strength | :19:57. | :20:07. | |
:20:07. | :20:13. | ||
these people would rather die than go back. There is a long tire | :20:13. | :20:23. | |
:20:23. | :20:24. | ||
before an end game is reached in The regime is holding on in the | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
only way they can. They cannot go back. I also want to reflect a | :20:31. | :20:39. | |
little bit more on your profession. Reporting. It seems to me that | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
have more a have more and more of the material | :20:43. | :20:51. | |
we are consuming internationally coming from young, local people who | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
are not trained journalists. They are activists with a cause. He | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
worked alongside them. You have spoken very highly of them. But | :21:04. | :21:14. | |
:21:14. | :21:16. | ||
what is it doing to journalism? were being presented with the | :21:16. | :21:26. | |
:21:26. | :21:29. | ||
videos of what happens. We took these videos and checked them. | :21:29. | :21:39. | |
were fake. They were told that that was what was happeni | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
was what was happening. I have seen the work of a courageous young man, | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
a Syrian a Syrian that conflict area who has admitted that | :21:49. | :21:59. | |
in one particular shot he a smoke | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
smoke and make more dramatic. It is rely | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
rely on everything we are currently seeing. We cannot simply. That is | :22:13. | :22:23. | |
:22:23. | :22:23. | ||
why these videos cannot be verified. That is where the gate weakened. | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
There is al There is aluse for doubt. -- they get weekend. And that is | :22:30. | :22:38. | |
why there will always be people like you. We have to be able to | :22:38. | :22:45. | |
come out and make sense of what we are seeing. People still have to go | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
in and do it on those level. Would you be prepared to testify before | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
any sort of International Criminal Court or tribunal if President | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
Assad and some of his people were ever brought to a tribunal? I would | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
:23:13. | :23:13. | ||
civilian civilian homes being destroyed, yes. | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
Even if the reporters Without borders organisation said that if | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
journalists in war zone are now seen as aids to international call- | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
ups, the job will become almost impossible. To the job is almost | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
:23:39. | :23:39. | ||
impossible anyway. Journalists are so targeted. It is changing. The | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
days of being able to go up to roadsides are long gone. | :23:44. | :23:51. | |
Journalists are watched. brilliant war photographer before | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
Europe Day said it at the end of his career he had had enough. He | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
said he wanted to photograph landscapes and flowers. I am | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
sentencing myself to peace. Are you ready to sentence yourself to | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
peace? I am not quite ready. you going to go back to convict? | :24:14. | :24:24. | |
:24:24. | :24:29. | ||
That is what is it me through this. is what I t | :24:29. | :24:33. |