Dr. Steve Peters - Psychiatrist working in elite sport HARDtalk


Dr. Steve Peters - Psychiatrist working in elite sport

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With the London Olympics just weeks away, athletes are finishing their

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preparation. In elite sport, the title of head coach increasingly

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refers to the specialist hired to get inside the athletes' head to

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instil winning mentality. My guest today is Dr Stephen Peters, a

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consultant to the British Olympic cycling team and a highly prized

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adviser to a host of other sporting names. His winning all in the mind?

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Dr Steve Peters, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you for having me.

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Is it true to say that instead of training athletes to run and jump

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and kicked commie you train and had to think? That would be fair.

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would think an athlete would already know how to think before

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reaching a pinnacle of their sporting career? I think that's a

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fair comment. What I would say is that most of the athletes don't

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realise what is happening inside their heads so they're not sure of

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the machine they are working with. Coming from a psychiatric point of

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view what I have done with athletes is to give them some insight into

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what is inside their head and what they can and can't do with it.

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Let's be clear about the background. Are you somebody who is in any

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sense a specialist in sport? Wrong. At all? I think I am a specialist

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in the human mind -- know. If you want to enter his specialist field

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like sport, my job is to enter that world and learn about the world.

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When I first arrived in the elite sport in 2005 I think it was fair

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to say I didn't have much of an idea, especially about cycling, so

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I had to learn about that. I work with coaches and other people who

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can inform me of the new all sources of that particular sport

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and then understanding the environment that the athlete is in.

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You can tune into the kind of stresses or beliefs they are likely

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to encounter. I would like to talk a lot about the stresses they

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encounter. Is there a basic accountability problem here? We

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know professional sports people in various different environments -

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they have a tendency to, and this is often a quote, to ask "how many

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medals have you won?" before they take advice from anybody. You admit

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you don't know a lot about sports, is an issue of credibility with

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those you are trying to advise? don't think so, because I don't

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make it a secret that time not a sports person as such. I don't have

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that credibility. I can't walk in and saying "I am an expert in this

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field", clearly are not. As long as I have an understanding of that

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field and what the athlete perceives in it. Let me take up

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with you something that you said not so long ago. You said "when I

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watch sport it's easy for me to see if somebody is underperforming for

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psychological reasons". Is that really true? Particularly if you

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don't find yourself immersed and steeped in those sports? It is a

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spectrum. We never say an absolute for anything. In my world it is

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about probabilities and possibilities. Give me some

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examples. Cycling is your big example at the moment. You're

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working closely with the British cycling team light it for any

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medals. When you look at the top cyclists performing and maybe he is

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not performing at the peak of his form, how can you tell whether that

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is as a result of mind issues - psychological problems? If, for

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example, I look at the individual sprint on the track, it is a

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tactical race, which means I have to beware of what that means

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tactically. I have learned over the years what the dos and don'ts are.

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I'm not an expert - we have coaches who are experts and they will in

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for me and tell me what they need the athlete to do. They will tell

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me that an athlete has hesitated when there is a split second when

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they have to go. If I watch this, because I have been with cycling

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for seven years, you know when someone is hesitating. You can see

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that and think that that is not the optimum way to perform. When we get

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the athlete of the back saying "I hesitated, why did I do that and

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how can I stop doing it?", that is a simple example. Most people, I

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don't think you need to be a psychiatrist to watch sport and say

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that somebody did something that was emotionally driven and not

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optimal. They think "I just need to get my head right". Yes, getting

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their head writers obviously a big part of it. Here is a crude

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question - in percentage terms, when one is talking about elite

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performance, how much of the performers would you a credit to

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having the right mindset? In rough percentage terms? I can't answer

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that because it's a very individual - I think the key to this whole

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conversation is, as a psychiatrist I'm coming at the individual

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machines. If you want a programme to do a certain action you have to

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look at the machine in front of you. A human being has a spectrum within

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the mind. Some people are born naturally very laid-back and others

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are quite anxious. We work with that machine. We are not all

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exactly the same, so I cut generically say this is the amount.

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What I do is say "what you want? What is your belief system around

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this? How do you think you will work optimally?" and then I will

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look and see why they can't do that. Also whether it is realistic, what

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they're asking to do. Interesting you refer to the human machine. In

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other contexts you have talked a great deal about the inner

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chimpanzee that we all have inside out that heads. If I understand,

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that is the reference to the part of our brains that is the most

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impulsive, emotional and primitive parts of our thinking. You say that

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is a very dominant part of our brain and that what this successful

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athlete has to do is learn to manage and control that in a

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chimpanzee. We manage it - you can't control it, that would be a

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mistake, to try and control it. Explain what managing it means.

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What I have invented is not a scientific theory or a fact, it is

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a model. A model is something to explain to you in very simple terms

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like sock puppets - let's make it simple. There's the emotional brain

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with all of these features, it acts like a chimpanzee. You know? It is

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very emotional, impulsive, aggressive and it doesn't consider

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consequences. You have got another part which is human, it is inside

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your control and is a thinking machine that you can control. It

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says, let the work is out with facts and troops and put it

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together logically. The problem is, it's in that order. The emotional

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brain get it first, the thinking brain second. There's a part, OK?

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This is an automatic pilot. This is what I call the computer. Now, bear

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with me. Think of them as free brains, emotional, logical,

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computer. If you see someone on the blocks and his chimpanzee is in

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action, he is more likely to do the following - it is likely to be

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saying "this is it, everything is on this race, you've got to get it

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right". That's not really the right place to be when you have to come

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up with results and other places. When you come out of the blocks in

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100 metres you want to be driven by the computer, it needs access, we

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need to settle the chimpanzee down and the human down and get the

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computer running. That is a skill. That's something you have to learn

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and practise. In my work, it's the same as if you went to a gym and

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you said, I want to get physically fit. What you do is you go to an

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expert in strength and conditioning and they ask you what you want to

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achieve, sprinting? Shot put it? This is what we need to do for your

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muscles, this is the machine, and this is what it will do. They will

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more literate and do it with you. If somebody says to me "I want to

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come out of the blocks quickly" I explain the chimpanzee, I explain

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the human, I explain the computer and tell them - let's learn how to

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go with the computer. It's a skills. When you have worked with some

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triple gold-medallist in Beijing, or one of the top cyclists in the

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world today, do they get it quickly? Are they able to adapt the

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way they use their brain as a result of conversations with you?

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The problem of sports people is a lot of them have come in here with

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fantastic physical abilities and skills and the mental skills are

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run different scale. Some of them are very talented mentally -- are

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on a different scale. Some of them don't have these skills and need to

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be taught. How were barricading the still depends on the individual. It

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depends on me as well, as a tutor to try to facilitate. Ronnie

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O'Sullivan is in snooker. He has talked about working with you and

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he says you turned around. He was at a point in his career way he had

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had enough of snooker. He didn't want to go into the World

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Championships anymore or be under the strain he had been under the

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past. Partly because he couldn't handle not winning. You did

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turnaround, he played in the championships and came across as a

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much happier player. How did you do it? There are a number of things I

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would like to say before I explain that, to set the scene so what has

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not taken out of context. Went on he came to see me he had beaten --

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he had won three world champions. At the one to beat my chest, he

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could have done it without me. If you work on your mental skills like

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he did, the probability of success rises, it's not a guarantee.

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seems to me what you're doing with any of these top sportsman is

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teaching them how to overcome their fear. Particularly their fear of

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losing. Yes. Because these are habitual winners, but they are also

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frightened of losing. Again, if we stick to the model - and you

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remember, it isn't a person fearing that, we have to split the brains

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up. Ronnie's chimpanzee was saying to him "I'm looking at consequences

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and what happens if I lose - it defines me if I were in". We need a

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human being sat there very differently and said to me, I would

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like to win, that would be pleasurable, but I have other

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values in my life which I am not sticking to because I chimpanzee is

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hijacking me. We have two people in talking to. Roddy started to

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recognise the difference. What he did this time -- Roddy.... Winning

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his it pleasure and it's my profession, but it doesn't define

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me and it would upset me to the point that where I feel like is

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impossible to win a fight -- impossible to live if I don't win.

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I see some sports people in their sporting arena behaving with a

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picture of passion that seems to tally with your description of the

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inner chimpanzee, yet you are telling me that the inner

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chimpanzee is totally destructive. I never said totally destructive -

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I never mentioned that. What has it is this - you have a choice. I'm

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not saying or chimpanzee can't win, I'm not saying that. By saying -- I

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am saying it's about probability. When people choke in the middle

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sport, you can almost guarantee what system of the brain they are

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using. When they going to fight mode and become overly confident,

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that's how it works, it is likely to suddenly flip into a panic mode

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or fall out of focus. If you go much more akin to a computer mode,

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the -- much more into a computer mode, you are more likely to stay

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there. When I entered sport, I learned about what they call the us

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-- the zone.... They might be in an aggressive stance, but they are

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quite calm and collected and they know they can do this. We need to

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do so on example is of those who are not like that. When BT of the

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Premier League in football, players like Murray Abdullah telly -- it I

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am thinking of the Premier League - - Mario Balotelli. When you see

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them, do you think "I could make them much better players". I don't

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think that. They are operating in chimpanzee mode. We see those

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emotions exhibited on the pitch. we assume that, that is an

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assumption - that system is relatively unstable, but that

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doesn't mean I should dive in and say, I think you should change your

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system. What I'm saying is that you need to look at the possibility

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that that system will let you down at some time. I have worked with a

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Premier League footballer who worked on that. A Premier League

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football at whom I cannot name. He collapsed and couldn't get back -

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once you have collapsed they aren't into the system you can't get back

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because you realise the fallibility of it. Craig Bellamy was working in

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chimpanzee mode. He has gone public about this. The reason I originally

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asked him not to - I ask most of them not to go public, the public

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have this expectation that once you work with me and you get it right

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it will always be right and if you get it wrong once, you have failed.

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Or more to the point, maybe you have failed. I can live with that.

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What I can say is if they go into that mode and they are in the

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spotlight, I don't have an all or nothing - what I'm saying it is a

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skill. When you have a day when you can do something well, there are

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the days when the skill let you down. That doesn't mean you have

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failed, it just means on that day you haven't done as well as you

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could have done. Like me, I have a skill. Sundays I meet athletes and

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I know I have nailed it. Other days I know I need to go back and do it

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again because it's not quite right. Let me ask you are somewhat

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different sort of question which takes you away from your direct

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daily involvement in professional sport and asks you to look at it

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from a distance. Would you, as a clinical psychiatrist agree with me

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that professional sport can be very bad for your mental health? I think

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that's true for anything. There are peculiar pressures. If I go to

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other world of being a doctor and ask if there is pressure on

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accident and emergency doctors, they are different pressures, but

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it will depend on the individual. We can't be generic here. Some

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sports people I work with thrive on the so-called pressures. They don't

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see them as pressures. But also common sense says if you like in

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the limelight and your value to the rest of society is on how you

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perform, then there is a pressure to most people. Most people would

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feel that pressure. It's a heavy Italian volleyball player who wrote

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powerfully about how he saw his own sport. He said, "Ultimately prefegs

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fal sports people are a business asset that belongs to somebody When

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has invested money on them and wants a return on the investment.

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It doesn't matter how I felt or what I wanted, it doesn't matter if

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I wasn't physically fit enough to stand up. I had to perform and

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perform well. There was no other option." He describes pretty well

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the reality of professional sport for a lot of sportsmen. I am not

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denying. This I have worked full- time for about seven years in sport

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and previously some years part-time. Clearly, there are a lot of young

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people where this is quite damaging. Again, it doesn't need a

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psychiatrist to say this. When they leave sport at an early age,

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particularly if they had not succeeded in their eyes by getting

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an Olympic medal and maybe they get to a semifinal in an event at the

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Olympics, if we were put in our own professions and we had reached the

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last 16 in the world we would be alerted. The consensus if they had

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failed The analysis is first is first and second is nowhere. Yes.

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With this brutality and belief system, and that is their choice, I

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can only offer them an alternative where they get Nougat De Montelimar

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perspective. At the end of the day they are doing their best. They

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can't do better than this. It is irrational. Isn't it your job to

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tell coaches and you would be a mind coach working with a physical

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coach that they are failing their charges. I mean, well -- Holly

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Aville has just quit trying to get into the British Olympic athlete

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team because she's admitted she's had anorexia problems for years.

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They go back to a time when she was 16 and one of the coaches said to

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her, "Holly, you have done well in this particular tournament but you

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have to watch your weight." Since then she's tried to starve herself

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and her bones have gotten thinner and she's had to quit for those

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reasons. Coaches are are feeling the charges. I don't know what the

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coach said or why he said it. you think it is an unusual story?

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don't think it is unusual. Let me finish. We have to get both

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contexts of what we do. Obviously it is a very sad and I don't know

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this young lady and obviously somewhere along the line

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professional help should have been available to her to support her. I

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don't think we should start blasting the coaches and saying

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they are sterling. They are doing their best. If a coach comes to me,

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and it happens a lot with coaches, and they say what is the best way

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to get the performance out of the athlete? Clearly, most of us don't

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like being beaten by a stick. That is not rocket science. We like

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encouragement. We might need a kick up the pants at times, but it is

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almost better ourselves. I will say to coaches, if you do a certain

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thing, these are the likelihood of your athlete in this particular

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case of responding this way. If you do this, this is the likelihood,

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but to give you a simple example when I started if sport, a coach

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said to me - I usually get on with the coaches - but I am not

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perfectly popular because I will speak. They asked me what do we say

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on the day of competition? It depends. Ask them what they want.

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Some notes will say can you cope up the words, Steve. Your presence

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settles me. If they say I want you to hover and come and talk to me at

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this point, that is when I do. In order, you have to work it out with

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the athlete and the coach does the same. I am going to stop you there.

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I am going to stop you because I am very aware that people watching

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this, listening to this, around the world will perhaps be bringing a

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different perspective to the table. For example, in China, we know from

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the book ground of the Beijing Olympics, but the Chinese approach

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to creating champions was to extract talented kids from their

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family, as young as 10 years old, to have them live in special

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environments and see their parents maybe twice a year to instil

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incredible discipline into those children and basically give them a

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message which was, "If you win, you will have a great life. Your family

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will be given great gifts and everything will be rosy. If you do

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not win, you will be thrown on the scrap heap and life will be

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miserable." that is a form oar coaching and discipline that you

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haven't addressed at all, but it worked. It got 51 gold medals. How

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do you explain that? If I get a gun and put it to someone's head and

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say go to the gym but damage your back permanently and lift the gun

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they will lift the waits, but that doesn't make it right. But how --

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am saying at the beginning, it is about probabilities. All I am

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saying is happy people are more likely to engage. People who are

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empowered are more likely to take accountability and responsibility

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for poem who are suppressed and dictated to. It is a probability.

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Once you get so severe that they say this is going to affect your

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entire life, I suppose most people will engage. That doesn't make them

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happy people. I am saying from my perspective when I came into sport,

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my job of course in sport is to get these performances, but with anyone

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I am working with, I am not going to do that. What I am going to do

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is get someone to be happy within themselves actually saying, "I feel

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good about where I am." We will move on. The chances are they will

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pick the waits up and work. It is a very different way of dough it.

:21:43.:21:47.

know your goal working with the British Olympic teams is to get as

:21:47.:21:50.

many goal medals for your people as you can. I wonder do you sit become

:21:51.:21:54.

and think, "You know what, those years ago when I was working in a

:21:54.:21:58.

secure hospital with deeply damaged menly ill people trying to turn

:21:58.:22:03.

their lives around, was that in all honesty more worthwhile than trying

:22:03.:22:10.

to deliver gold medals?" I was working one day in surgery - I am a

:22:10.:22:14.

doctor and you train through a different discipline - obviously it

:22:15.:22:20.

gets quit tedious, but that is for me to say but I never interact with

:22:20.:22:24.

the people. What struck me was you get them better for quality of life,

:22:24.:22:28.

you get them better so they can enjoy life. There is no point in

:22:28.:22:31.

getting someone better and they are miserable. You haven't given them a

:22:31.:22:35.

quality life. At the end of the day most of us would say it is not

:22:35.:22:37.

about being physically and mentally fit, but about the quality of life

:22:37.:22:41.

that you have. It is about happiness. If you start looking at

:22:41.:22:44.

sports people, of course I say to ports people, if a martian came

:22:44.:22:49.

down and said, "What do you do for a living?" "I kick a ball around a

:22:49.:22:56.

fold." They would say, "What use is that?" I would say, "I make people

:22:56.:23:00.

happy for them to win medals or score goals." We watch the Olympics

:23:00.:23:04.

because it makes us feel happy. does it make you happy to reflect

:23:04.:23:08.

that is the way you have taken your life? Absolutely. It does?

:23:08.:23:12.

Absolutely. You don't think of people who are not famous sporting

:23:12.:23:16.

names and how you could have benefited societyed in so many

:23:16.:23:20.

different ways? I am locking at it as a doctor in society. I could go

:23:20.:23:23.

back to dealing with mental illness and mental health, which I have

:23:23.:23:26.

done for a long time. However, when you look at it, we are looking at

:23:26.:23:30.

quality of life, so I did address the question when invited to join

:23:30.:23:35.

the team full-time. I spend 12 months deliberating and thinking

:23:35.:23:39.

can I really justfy this to myself? At the end of the day, yes, you

:23:39.:23:43.

cannot believe how many people come up to me and thank me for going

:23:43.:23:47.

into sport and athletes say I have made a difference. Fan mail come

:23:47.:23:51.

through and say it made their day. You think this is quality of living

:23:51.:23:55.

that sports people are giving us. I would argue it is called call of

:23:55.:23:58.

human living. A final thought because the Olympics in London are

:23:58.:24:08.

only weeks away. I have in my head Baron deKupertan's words it is not

:24:08.:24:13.

the winning that matters, but the taking part. You don't believe

:24:13.:24:16.

that? I saw the Olympic corrode. It is not about the winning, but the

:24:17.:24:21.

struggle. Taking part in the struggle, the effort you make.

:24:21.:24:26.

Absolutely. That is the right moral stands. The chimp says "you are

:24:26.:24:31.

joking, I am out there to win." You have to live with your chimp. One

:24:31.:24:36.

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