Gehad El-Haddad -Senior Political Advisor, Freedom and Justice Party HARDtalk

could not fully exercise his duties. Now on BBC News it is time for

HARDtalk. Mohammed Morsi has made history by

becoming Egypt's first freely elected president, but how much

power has he won? The image of tens of thousands of Muslim Brotherhood

supporters savouring victory in Tahrir Square can't disguise the

fact that Egypt is still governed by a military clique. My guest

today is Gehad El-Haddad, an adviser to the Muslim Brotherhood's

Freedom and Justice Party. With parliament dissolved, no new

constitution written, the generals ring-fencing their powers, has

Gehad El-Haddad, welcome to HARDtalk.

What we have seen through this presidential election is a deeply

divided nation and a President elect who can command the support

of just 25% of eligible voters, is there anything to celebrate here?

Yes, of course. The first year of true and genuine democracy in Egypt.

Finally, we are starting to deliver change. Do you accept that Mohammed

Morsi starts in a very difficult position, not least because 50% of

the electorate did not find themselves voting for either of the

two candidates, and your party has broken a fundamental promise, your

party said you would not seek the presidential office, but your man

sits in the presidential office, or about to be. Indeed. That is the

most difficult time in Egypt's history. The first ever civil

President of Egypt, which goes back to the time of the Pharaohs. You

are also right it is a difficult vote that has been achieved. There

are a lot of challenges and the road ahead is quite bumpy. You said

the other day, we have already seen in the last few days a military

coup. Do you stand by those words? Yes. I would add the word, soft.

your man is taking the presidential palace in the environment of a

country undergoing a soft military coup, can you explain to me how he

actually has a meaningful position right now? Certainly. No-one

discusses that this was a peaceful revolution in Egypt. In order for

you to enact change against the previous governing regime, you have

to acquire the legitimacy. I believe that the parliamentary

elections and presidential elections have transferred

democratic legitimacy to govern to both parliament, the elected

parliament, and Mohammed Morsi. The rest will be transferring executive

powers. This will be one of the main and first responsibilities for

him to discuss with the ruling council. Let's be clear about a few

things. Are you saying that the various declarations made by the

Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, the declarations of June 16, 17,

the dissolution of the parliament, the military taking on expanded

powers, they are null and void as far as you are concerned? Yes, we

do not regard them as official, legal or constitutional. The

majority of political forces and opinion leaders do not regard them

as such. But in a sense it does not matter what they think, the

parliament no longer exists. It has been dissolved. The issue of the

parliament is twofold. There has been a verdict by the

constitutional court, the Hosni Mubarak appointed constitutional

court. Membership is contested under the constitution. That was

the nature of the verdict. One position has been refused by all

political parties, we believe we can dismember one third of

Parliament and re-run the election based on that one third. There are

many solutions to this equation, it does not have to be black and white.

It can be grey. You say that, but key figures in your party say if

the door to peaceful transition is closed, then that is an invitation

to violence. I am struggling to see how there cannot be over the course

of the next few days and weeks a confrontation, possibly violent,

between your forces and the military government. Thankfully we

are past this point. These words were echoed in the context of the

possibility of Ahmed Shafiq being announced as president. These words

were echoed then because everyone knew, if Ahmed Shafiq had been

announced President, he would be the strong-arm President of the

people. Thankfully, we have received the right President with

legitimacy. We are now operating on the next chapter. With respect, you

are missing the fundamental point. Yes, SCAF have recognised the

legitimacy, but they have changed the rules of the game. They are

going to take all military and foreign policy decisions. They have

taken upon themselves legislative and budgetary powers. They have

also maintained the right of veto over the constitutional assembly.

They can reject the assembly. Every single important item, the military,

not your President, is in control. You are taking the declaration of

the Supreme Council of Armed Forces for granted. It is quite fragile

and does not stand on firm ground. We have many ways of shuffling this

back and withdrawing it altogether. The constitutional right that was

declared in the referendum in February of last year, meant that

no power in Egypt can have the right to declare any constitutional

amendment or declaration except through a referendum of the people.

To state the obvious, SCAF have the guns and you do not. There is no

way you can convince me that Mohammed Morsi is going to be

Commander In Chief or could tell the military leadership what to do.

No-one expected Mohammed Morsi to reach this far. I think there are a

lot of surprises to happen down the road. What do you mean surprises?

Egypt was not a carefully planned country. No-one expected the

revolution to happen. No-one expected the voices of people to be

that strong. No-one expected people to mobilise in the streets two

hours after the verdict on Hosni Mubarak. Democracy has arrived in

this country. The will of the people will be heard. We will see.

We hear Mohammed Morsi is looking at naming names to a first Cabinet.

He wants to appoint a Prime Minister, Mohamed ElBaradei has

come up, he would be seen as a unifying figure to bring the

various forces together. Will he be Prime Minister? It is premature to

say now. Many names have been discussed with Mohammed Morsi. He

is a unifying figure amongst others in Egypt. We hope to achieve a

coalition government. Mostly comprised of independent candidates.

We can achieve a meritocracy based on ability to govern. One promise

that has been made repeatedly by your movement is justice for the

so-called martyrs who lost their lives during the 1.5 years of

revolution. That brings me back to your relationship with the military.

Are you determined to make sure that those inside the military

leadership responsible for the death of hundreds of people over

the struggle for democracy in your country, will they be held

accountable? Certainly. There are two values to consider. The nature

of the crimes committed. We will enact the law to the fullest extent

possible. We will provide the necessary evidence to the courts so

they can re-evaluate the matters in the proper dimension. The other

dimension is that Egypt is in transition. Learning the lessons

from different transitions around the world, from Spain, South Africa

with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, all of these give very

positive implications for transitional justice. We believe

that this model hopefully will be presented to the Egyptian people.

What is your party going to do about the fact that a few days ago,

the Justice Minister, unelected, declared the security forces have

got the right to arrest and detain civilians as they see fit, in

essence restoring the state of emergency that you only just got

rid of. What will you do about that? The new Justice Minister will

refuse it. He cannot. He will be able to. It is within the legal

rights of the President. It seems to me on every single answer, you

are setting your movement on a collision course with the military.

It seems bizarre given that yesterday Mohammed Morsi was on

television hailing the achievement of the military and saying we want

to work with it. We have never closed the door to dialogue and

compromise and negotiation. He will be the primary figure dealing with

the Supreme Council as the President of Egypt. Everything is

on the table. The work of the Muslim Brotherhood, Freedom and

Justice Party, the National Front of the coalition, the President

elect, are working to achieve a peaceful compromise that does not

end in the loss of life or the shed You call it peaceful compromise.

The more cynical Egyptian might say that frankly, we know that the

Muslim Brotherhood and the armed forces have been in talks for many

days and they have done a deal. Mohammed Mursi has agreed that in

return for the presidency, he will essentially allow the military to

run all security affairs in the country and keep their economic

position. That is what this amounts to, isn't? We don't believe in

those kinds of conspiracy theories. In reality, those who do not

believe in the power of democracy or the power and rights and will of

the people, will always come up with these conclusions and somehow,

the will of the people was shortcut. The reality is, since the first

round of the presidential election, there has only been one meeting and

that was between the Speaker of the House and the member of staff, and

it was to announce the demands of the revolution and announce the

demands, that Parliament still exists, and that the constitutional

assembly still continues and a handover to the President would

have to go through. If you stick to those demands and you keep your

people in the City and Tahrir Square, which is currently ongoing,

how long are you prepared to continue the civil disobedience in

a peaceful way, before you start to ratchet up the pressure, by perhaps

getting some stones thrown and We have not reached civil

disobedience yet. We have not reached marches. It can escalate a

few levels and still be peaceful and we will make sure that it

always remains peaceful. In the history of the Egyptian people,

there has never been any clashes or civil wars or confrontation between

major forces in the country and we don't expect that to ever happen in

Egypt. There can always be compromises, and as long as both

sides are open to dialogue, peace must be the way. Let's suppose that

your amazing level of optimism is justified. And that the Islamist

movement does get the chance to redefine and reshape Egypt in the

way that you clearly hope that it will. Do you want Egypt to be an

Islamic state? This is a civil state. The fact that we as a party

had Islamic reference, is a testament to we are and what

standards that we hold ourselves up to. We don't believe in a theocracy

or the rule of religion over the civility over of the state. And we

do not believe that religious texts hold over the civil laws of the

state. All of the laws that we are coming with are nothing more than

him an effort in translating how to serve the best interests of the

people and they can be objected to and scrutinised and opposed. Let me

be more specific. Let's look at the Tunisian model. A clear majority in

Tunisia or behind the Islamist party. They took a specific

decision not to seek to base legislation primarily on Sharia,

Islamic law. They took a decision not to do that. They have defined

their nation as a nation which has Islam as its religion, but not an

Islamic nation, with Sharia at its core. Are you going to do the same

thing? I would not think so. I think that each country and nation

has its cultural specificities that adapt to its people and aspirations.

At the moment, the second article of the constitution stipulates, and

there is a difference between Sharia law and intent. The second

article of the constitution says that all laws must be based on

Sharia intent, that is the values of Sharia. It is justice, it is

rule of law. So, you are not like the leader of Tunisia, you're not

going to say what he said, quote - we are not going to use the law to

impose religion. You will not say that. Of course not, we will never

use the law to impose religion. Religious freedom is one of the

fundamental protectors of rights. It might have been jeopardised by

courts with tendencies that have been rooted within some

Conservative areas. Under the rule of law, it is protected and we will

make sure that it will remain protected. Liberty's, freedom of

marriage, everything. Why did Mohammed Mursi, President-elect,

say in May that there would not be and could not be, a woman assuming

the role of president in your country? I would not think that he

said that. His presidential programme, as well as his party's

presidential programme says that anyone can appoint any position of

the state, including the presidency. And as the biggest party in Egypt,

we will back that person with all of the resources that we have, be

it a President, a man, a Muslim, a woman. You sound very confident.

But on CBC television he said, I'm quoting directly, my party believes

that a woman should not assume the role of a president'. That is

different from what his party's stated. His party may not nominate

a woman. But he is ruling a democratic nation. And because of

the fact that we have an Islamic reference point, and it is their

opinion, as the Islamic scholars, that women do not assume the role

of presidency, under the rule of Islam. Until they change their mind,

and according to their own circles of thought, we abide by what they

come up with. We will work with any woman that can be elected as

President for Egypt. That is called sophistry, if I may say so. I am

afraid that I do not understand that. It just means a very, very

complex argument that is not understood by many people hearing

it. It seems that more than 12 million Egyptians in the end to

cast their vote for Ahmed Shafiq. Many did not like the guy, but many

appear desperately worried that your movement intends to impose

Islamic law, Islamic values, upon Egypt in a way which would be

detrimental to women, Coptic Christians, and secular liberals.

Are you concerned about the numbers who are not with you? I think not,

actually. Two reasons, first of all, all of our positions, our ideals

and the way we think and what we want to do, is outlined in

extremely articulate terms in both the presidential and party

programme. We will be held accountable. We clearly make sure

that we safeguard all of the rights and personal freedoms of women.

There has been a very excruciating media campaign and many have heard

of it. They want to demonise the Freedom and Justice Party. Most of

that is heresy, or just pure lies and rumours. Those who make the

effort to listen to us, hear arguments, have come out

differently. And those who have read our programmes, these guys are

really talking about something really democratic and genuine.

specific points, one on the economy. You have been advising your party

on how to get the economy moving. You have said that a key to this is

moving this down the state. You have a problem, 30% or 40% of

Egypt's economic output is controlled by the military. Are you

saying that you will unpick the military's control of the Egyptian

economy? The rule here is, the value that is being jeopardised is

equal competition in the marketplace. Or any proper of

service to be offered. Say for example, the military. If it is a

big and a significant competitive edge, then it devalues the market.

It basically closes the market down. We believe that there has to be

certain rules and conditions that govern the availability of military

based services and products within an open economy. Within a free

market economy. So that competition can rise, growth can escalate and

the output of that can be socially divided across all segments.

final point, about Egypt's stance in international affairs,

especially when it comes to the peace treaty with Israel. This is

what the Arab affairs committee of your own parliament, dominated by

your own movement, declared recently - Egypt will never be a

friend, partner or alliance with Israel, which we consider to be an

enemy. Is that your party's position right now? Yes, Israel is

an enemy of human rights, peace and stability within the region. Is it

an enemy of Egypt? I stated the three values. It is an enemy of

human rights, an enemy of peace, and an enemy of stability. All of

these are interests of the Egyptian nation and people within their

region. Will President-elect Mohammed Mursi meet with Israeli

leaders? Any one that has been elected to any position within the

state of Egypt will meet and work with Israeli leaders to make sure

that the peaceful process of reconciliation within the region

can be re-established and redefined on equal roles. But what we hold

here is the injustice has happening within our region, especially

within Palestine and the blockade on the Gaza Strip, have to be

lifted. We will lobby the international committee on a more

positive role in ending the suffering of the people in this

region. Israel is deeply worried about what is happening in Egypt.

In that light, was it wise for Mohammed Mursi to tell the Iranian

news agency that he wanted strengthened and deepened ties with

Tehran? I think that you should have checked the source of that,

that was an entirely false story. It was made up by an Egyptian news

wire. Many international news wires are learning the lesson that not

everything said in the official Egyptian news wires are true. Since