Paul Kagame HARDtalk


Paul Kagame

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That's the latest BBC News. Now it's time for HARDtalk.

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He is the wonder of's President Paul Kagame in danger of losing the

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international community's goodwill for a country still haunted by the

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ghost of genocide? -- yes Rwanda's. He is accused of being unrealistic

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about prosp about prospthe economic transformation and, most damagingly,

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a recent United Nations will -- report claims the government is

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breaking UN sanctions by backing rebels in the neighbouring

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Democratic Republic of Congo. My guests today on hard-fought is

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President Paul Kagame of Rwanda. Can he reclaim his reputation as

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the bold and visionary leader or is he destined to go down as another

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African strongman who failed to President Paul Kagame, welcome to

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HARDtalk. Thank you. You have been credited with trying to unite a

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divided country, make it more prosperous after the genocide of

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1994. But truly you are in danger of squandering the international

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community's goodwill, aren't you? No. It does not make sense. There

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is nothing to that suggests underground that there is any

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danger as to what Rwanda looks like all the present -- present

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government looks like. The facts speak for themselves. Are you aware

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that you are a deeply polarising person? That your admirers think

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very highly of you and yet your critics are increasingly becoming

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more and more sceptical? You divide opinion. I start with where things

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must start first, that is in Rwanda. What the people think about what we

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are doing in their lives, how we are building the country. This is

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the starting point. For the critics, they have been there from the start.

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We do not acknowledge the progress that is being made in the country.

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-- they do not. For them, the ask to

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ask 10 or 15 years ago. But for the real people who live real life on

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the ground, the millions of Rwanda has, the Sea Life getting better

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everywhere. But why do you think that you excite that kind of

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passion? -- they see life. That makes somebody like Tony Blair

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hailed you as a bold and visionary leader and says that you are a good

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friend and yet there are those who are... Who give a completely

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different point of view? Tony Blair, many other friends that have helped

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the country to be where it is today. They are genuine people who think -

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- think through issues and question different things and come up with a

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good conclusion. Tony Blair has been advising you on how to become

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less a dependent, for example? That's right. It is polarising in

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the sense that there are people who have been connected with Rwanda's

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problems for the beginning, in history for many years. These

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problems related to genocide and many others and they cannot

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inherently Rwanda. People have been part of the problem and they have

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always seemed Rwanda with different eyes. What do you mean people from

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the outside? Former colonial powers? When I say from outside, I

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mean from beyond even the colonial times. They have not allowed Rwanda

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and or Africans to deal with their own problems. That is a debate

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which is certainly worth having and we have had it in various guises.

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But I want to put you not prisons from outside but criticisms from

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inside Rwanda. -- not criticisms from outside. People who tried to

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stop those people read perpetrating violence. People who know you well

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and say Paul Kagame is autocratic. Can I give you some names? You can

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give names but... Can I just say what it is that I am talking about?

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Even if it is 20 names, I am talking about millions of people in

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Rwanda. If you want to believe what 10 or 15 people are talking about,

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and you don't believe what millions of people in Rwanda are saying,

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that is where the problem is. Look at the crisis all over the world.

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Whichever country we talk about. Developed, developing and otherwise.

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They have crisis and scandals going on with leaders, with everybody. If

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you are going to take a country as it is and say, "this country,

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because of the leader, this is how we must look at the Country", then

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you will get things wrong. I still put it to you and as I said nobody

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doubts that you have brought great economic success to Rwanda. And if

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you look at various indicators, you have tackled education, malaria,

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that kind of thing. But politically they are strong criticisms about

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you. In the 57 page Rwanda briefing from 20th August 10, you are

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described as a hardline, one party, secretive police state. -- 20th

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August 10. And that people have been held hostage deal repressive

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rule. Who said that? The 4G -- the former chief of staff, a number of

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people, the former prosecutor- general, a former ambassador to

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Washington from Rwanda. These are all people, your former allies.

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take you back to this problem. In this country, where we are sitting,

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you read the newspapers every day and they talk about different

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things about business people, different things. You would not

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turn around and say this country is in Innis because of these

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individuals. But what do you say to these individuals? I am saying this

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to you. There is not a single country in this world, is what RIM

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pudding to you, or a single leader who is in a public office that has

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not come under attack or criticism. -- what I am putting to you. That

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is a valid point. But the way you chose to say, I believe this one.

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was putting it to you and want your response. I have heard this

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hundreds of times. The focus is very much on Rwanda. For us, we are

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comfortable with what we are doing and what we have in terms of

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progress. These are just a few people who are critical of your

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leadership? The facts are there for you deceive. It depends on what you

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want to believe. You either believe what certain people say and you

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don't want to see their own lack of accountability and issues relating

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to their own his conduct and you don't want... I was not portraying

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him as a model democrat at all. that is what you... I was not doing

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that. When you raise it like that, that is what somebody will think.

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was not suggesting that he is a model democrat but he has been shot

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at in Johannesburg and has renewed his allegation... Why don't you

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want the case... There is a trial to go -- going on. Do you want me

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to talk about the case? He is renewing the allegation that you

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were involved in that shooting. What do I expecting to say? I am

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just asking for your response. What made them turn their opinion

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against you? These were your allies. What is it? My people are more

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important move. The people of the country. There are close to 12

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million people. You chose to single out somebody on the street

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spreading rumours or creating stories. All you choose to believe

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the millions of people of Rwanda. It is your call. It is not one or

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the other, Mr President. We live in the same world so don't treat

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Rwanda given the from the rest of the world. We live in the same

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world where there is no situation that people will agree 100%. If you

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are talking about Rwanda, just look at it in the same context as you

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see the rest of the world. But you have dismissed the criticism from

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your former allies. But one of your biggest donors, the US, the

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ambassador to the UN has applauded your economic vitality, which she

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says has moved the country forward. And yet the political culture, she

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says, in Rwanda remains comparatively closed. When a key

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ally like the US says that, you have to take notice, don't you?

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US or any other country do not manage Rwanda. It is managed by the

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people of Rwanda. Listen to them. But they are one of your biggest

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bilateral aid donors. It does not determine how we live our lives.

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What do you say to her? If you are talking about her, look a bit in

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history. Look at the failures of these friends. One day you want to

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believe what they say, I am sure even if you don't want to, this is

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what I am telling you. People of Rwanda live their lives and

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determine how they live their lives. I am supposed to ensure that.

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not a politically closed country because you have got people like

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the Opposition Leader who is on trial because she... I am just

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putting it to you. Let's talk about things that matter to the lives

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of... Dissidents remain silent out of fear in Rwanda. What is your

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response? My response is that maybe if you take all of your time for

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most of your time asking everybody in this world, all of these

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problems. We do put these points and criticisms two leaders and

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other politicians. I was not being cynical. I was giving you a chance

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to rebut these allegations. We have explained this so-called

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allegations. I am glad you are even pudding it that way. You are

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talking about all of the progress that people in Rwanda and are

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making and then you put it back and bring in one individuals saying

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this. Even out of context. People are in the courts to answer the

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charges against them. What is wrong with that? She is not punished

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without hearing her. There are also others. She is being found guilty

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of genocide, promoting genocide, and violating the law that

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prohibits genocide. She said that the innocent majority who died

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alongside the Tutsis in the genocide... But you are asking me

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every case that has been handled by the court in Rwanda. It does not

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look good when you have... To who? It does not look good to you who

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does not understand problems of Rwanda. But it is making good

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progress. The people are holding each other and holding themselves

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accountable. We will talk about the economy in a while. As I said, you

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have been totally applauded for your efforts for including

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agriculture and output. Undoubtedly, everybody says it is a big economic

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success story. Fantastic rate of growth. But it is the politics I

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was trying to pick you up on. the politics were wrong, the

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Agriculture would not thrive. Agriculture involves the people of

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Rwanda. They are doing their agriculture, feeding themselves. It

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is the politics behind it driving it. You are facing huge allegations

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now, renewed once, about your activities or alleged activities in

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the neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo. The UN report

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earlier this year says that the Rwandan government is backing a

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rebel movement in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Led by a former

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Congolese general. What is your response to these very serious

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allegations? My response is that we are not connected at all with the

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cause of the uprising by M23. We do not support it. We don't know what

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they are about or what they want. We are not involved at all and it

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would not make sense because, for us, our relationship with the Congo

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before this happened was very good. We were working together to

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eliminate the problem that has existed between the two countries.

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Some people are not happy about working with the Congolese so I

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tried to undermine that. Then, all of a sudden, because of the

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problems with the Congo, this issue came up. It is an internal problem

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of Congo and the faded thereof in terms of the covenants and how to

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resolve their own problems that has created this is shook. -- this

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issue. But this group of experts who put together this report and in

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their briefing to the UN sanctions Committee on 13th June, they say

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they gathered evidence of arms embargo and sanctions raging

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violations committed by the Rwandan government. They say these

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violations included financial and arms support to armed rebels in the

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Let me clarify. The so-called report is attached to the interim

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report by so-called experts... Second, if you look at what is said,

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it tells you... The facts are there. Names of people that were from

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Rwanda that were put there. They would they want to invent

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information? Let me tell you the facts and you can make your own

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conclusion. If you look at the report it has been based on what

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the soldiers have said in the Congo. The military in the Congo. The

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intelligence people. The so-called defectors. This is what they are

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talking about. I'm telling you for a fact that people have been

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accused have not been asked at all. Do you want these experts, your

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Foreign Minister says they should come to Rwanda to carry out their

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investigation. Had he invited them? Before I do that I am questioning

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the expertise of the investigation. How do you pick someone on the

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street and then invite them? The UN Secretary General has spoken to you

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on the telephone and also the president of the Democratic

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Republic of Congo... That is true. Is he making this statement on a

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useless report? He says he has got serious concerns. How does that

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relate to the report? He says he is very concerned. He has serious

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concerns about the external support that the... He is concerned about

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the various goings on. He talked about the report. Did he ask, is

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Rwanda supporting... His people lied to him. Why would they make

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all this stuff up? I have told you the facts. Then you can major own

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conclusion. -- make urine. The report is written just asking one

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side. -- make your own. Direct assistance of the M23, yes or no?

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That is what is Britain. It is not true. -- written. Recruited at --

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youth. The provision of weapons and ammunition? They are getting a

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mission from where they are fighting. Let me tell you the main

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problem in this Congo's situation is ignorance and arrogance of

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people not listening. -- ammunition. The ignorance of people saying

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someone is giving them arms. have said no to all of those. You

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say the UN report is baseless. You are being urged to meet the

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President of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Let me tell you

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this ignorance that is taking place. The Secretary General, he did not

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know that we talked... Will you meet him face to face? Your Foreign

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Minister has said there is an agreement. You have not decided

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whether or not to meet? One thing I do not like. The fighting going on

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is not between Rwanda and the other. It is between one group that is

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Congolese and another group that is Congolese. The other thing about

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accusations is that you cannot substantiate. Could this support be

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going on without your knowledge? There is no support that is going

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on. There is no support that will go on. No renegade Rwanda

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military... We do not have those. You have talked about making Rwanda

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the Singapore of Africa and so on. In reality have a long way to go

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before you can be described as an African lion. 6% growth. How are

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you going to be able to do this with 85% of people living on the

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land? You touched on the dark side of things. If the country is

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feeding itself and exporting food to the rest of the region. If you

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have children going to school for the first nine years, now extended

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to 12 years, this is not a bad start. If you have health insurance

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covering 94% of the population this is not a bad start. If you have

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women in power and girl children going to school, it is not a bad

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start. Among the three competitive economies in Africa it is not a bad

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start. Rwanda 50 years since it became independent from Belgium,

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what will your legacy be? You are just a bit older than your country.

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Will you go down as a bold and visionary leader? I cannot go down

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on anything. I can just go up. My country is going up. I will be

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