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American country has become the main transit centre for drug | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
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traffickers transporting cocaine to the United States. | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
HARDtalk is on the road in Honduras, a country being torn apart by crime | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
and violence, much of it fuelled by the drug trade. As much as 75% of | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
the cocaine in the United States comes through Honduras. It comes by | :00:43. | :00:50. | |
air and by sea. The US government is now pushing Honduras to crack | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
down on the narcotics traffickers. In this country, which is driven by | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
:01:04. | :01:10. | ||
corruption, it is a war on drugs going to prove counter-productive? | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
Honduras is mosquito-coast. The most remote, sparsely populated | :01:15. | :01:24. | |
corner of the country. The only way in is by aeroplane or by boat. | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
Across this expanse of marsh and Forest, the indigenous people speak | :01:28. | :01:37. | |
their own language and create a living fishing and farming. Here | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
there is one activity that promises a way out of poverty. Smuggling | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
:01:50. | :01:53. | ||
cocaine. (Latin music). This is the biggest town in the region. The | :01:53. | :02:03. | |
:02:03. | :02:04. | ||
Caribbean heat hangs heavy here, so, too, does the taint of drugs. In | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
recent years, the streets have seen shootings, murders and vendettas | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
between rival traffickers. The waters off the coast are on the | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
smuggling route from Colombia and Venezuela. I joined a Honduran Navy | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
patrol tasked with disrupting the flow of cocaine. Within minutes, | :02:27. | :02:35. | |
agents bought in a fishing boat heading for Puerto lempira. The | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
forces get training from American advisers and they get you s | :02:39. | :02:47. | |
intelligence support. -- US. But the odds are still stacked against | :02:47. | :02:57. | |
:02:57. | :02:58. | ||
them. This search turned up nothing, but tons of cocaine is getting | :02:58. | :03:07. | |
through every month. Colonel, how sophisticated are the narcotics | :03:07. | :03:17. | |
:03:17. | :03:17. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :03:17. | :03:58. | |
traffickers that you are dealing Colonel, as you described to me, | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the submarines and sophisticated navigation systems that these | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
narcotics traffickers have, it strikes me that they have more | :04:06. | :04:16. | |
:04:16. | :04:46. | ||
resources than you do? (speaks Penetrating Honduras' drug- | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
trafficking gangs is not easy. We journeyed to a remote | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
rehabilitation centre which can offer a way out for some of the | :04:54. | :05:04. | |
country's most hardened criminals. The young men here have turned | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
their backs on their gains. Many face death of their return to their | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
old neighbourhoods. In his grave, we found an assortment of users, | :05:17. | :05:27. | |
:05:27. | :05:29. | ||
dealers, middlemen and murderers. - - in this group. One young man, we | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
call him my lawn, agreed to talk. I would like you to tell me when you | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
first got involved in the drugs business? TRANSLATION: After first | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
being a recruit I became a gang member, then I became second-in- | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
command. Later, I gained control of the gang. Him games, the one who is | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
control is the one who is most aggressive -- in gangs. I became | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
unscrupulous, I had no love for anyone, I even hated myself. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
old were you when you first killed someone? TRANSLATION: 12. We are | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
trained to kill? How did you know, as a young boy, how to go about the | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
business of murdering people? TRANSLATION: It was an instinct | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
that a work within me. The rage, the hatred I felt within led me to | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
doing that. Then, like everything else, it became an addiction. Then | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
it became easy. After being a gang leader here I joined a criminal | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
grouping Mexico. I was trained to kill, and later that also became | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
normal to me. Many times I had to do horrendous things. There was a | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
lot of money, yes, a lot of money, and good women. Good cars, good | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
hotels. You were part of the MS 13 network. You work in the United | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
States, he went to Mexico to be trained to be a killer. You work in | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
Honduras. All of this time, were you aware that there were people at | :07:04. | :07:14. | |
the top of this network who were using you to help them create this | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
narcotics trafficking network right across the Americas? TRANSLATION: | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
Yes, of course. I knew there were people using me, but like everyone | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
in gangs, everyone in the trafficking movement, we all know | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
we are being used, but we all want to climb to a higher position to be | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
like them. Regardless of who you must kill, it doesn't matter, even | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
if you have to kill someone from your own family. It becomes an | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
obsession, trying to get to that position. Trying to be someone of a | :07:47. | :07:54. | |
higher rank. Someone who gives the orders instead of receiving them. | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
How easy is it going to be for the Honduran authorities, working with | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
the US, to beat the narcotics traffickers? TRANSLATION: It will | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
be hard because there are people involved inside the government | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
itself. If nothing is done within the government it will be useless. | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
They themselves are the promoters. They cover the big criminals. They | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
are the big criminals. You make it sound like the drugs traffickers | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
have almost brought up everything that matters inside Honduras, that | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
they almost alone the country. Is that how you feel about it? | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
TRANSLATION: Of course. They have taken control of everything. Narco | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
trafficking is everywhere. In Congress, in politics, even in | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
church. This is how it is, it's involved in everything. Narcotics | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
trafficking has taken control of our country in an extreme way. | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
There have been recent successes in Honduras' war on the traffickers. | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
Drug busts are trumpeted in the local media. But the amount of | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
cocaine passing through the country is still rising. The traffickers | :09:21. | :09:31. | |
:09:31. | :09:38. | ||
continue to bite off or a cure for their enemies. -- buy off or kill. | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
This is the new head of the Drug trafficking agency. His predecessor | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
was killed. Welcome to HARDtalk. In the conflict between the drug | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
traffickers and the Honduran state, would you except that the drugs | :09:51. | :10:01. | |
:10:01. | :10:17. | ||
traffickers are winning? TRANSLATION: (speaks Spanish). | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
TRANSLATION: (speaks Spanish). me tell you something that a | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
narcotics trafficker told to meet a couple of days ago. I ask him if he | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
thought the Honduran government will ever take on and defeat their | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
gains and the traffickers. And he laughed, he said to me "the | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
traffickers have so much money, they have so much money and so much | :10:40. | :10:49. | |
power they can buy whoever and whatever they want." if that's true, | :10:49. | :10:59. | |
:10:59. | :11:29. | ||
how can you beat them? (speaks Americans. They are putting | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
enormous pressure now on you and your government to do more to stop | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
the cocaine as it moves up from South America. Do you believe the | :11:41. | :11:51. | |
Americans themselves could be doing much more in terms of helping you? | :11:51. | :12:01. | |
:12:01. | :12:26. | ||
consumption, the demand side of this equation. Right now they are | :12:26. | :12:35. | |
very focused on the supply side, and stopping the supply. I know | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
there are increasing numbers of armed US drug enforcement agent on | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
your territory. They have some operating bases. They are | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
conducting joint operations with arms on your territory. Some people | :12:49. | :12:59. | |
:12:59. | :13:06. | ||
worry it's becoming a little like a new era of US imperialism. (SPEAKS | :13:06. | :13:16. | |
:13:16. | :13:16. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :13:16. | :14:16. | |
into the tiny settlement. Its airstrip is no more than a clearing | :14:16. | :14:26. | |
:14:26. | :14:30. | ||
This neglected village has come to symbolise a new phase in the war on | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
drugs. The river is the main means of transport in this remote corner | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
off the coast line. You find farmers, fishermen and Traders | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
going up and down the waters by day and by night. The problem is - so | :14:49. | :14:57. | |
too do the market traffickers. Two months ago, Honduran forces | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
launched a night-time raids on suspected traffickers on this | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
stretch of river. They did not act alone. US military helicopters and | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
personnel were heavily involved in a joint operation which targeted a | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
river boat believe to have picked up a stash of drugs from a remote | :15:17. | :15:27. | |
:15:27. | :15:29. | ||
airstrip. What happened next is the To get an eye witness account, I | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
paid a visit to the home of a lady who was on the boat which came | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
under heavy fire. She took a bullet through her and remains seriously | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
ill. Her son-in-law and two pregnant woman were killed. She | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
insists all were innocent victims. They were not drugs or because, | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
simply because she's coming back from a trip down river. | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
:16:04. | :16:04. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :16:04. | :17:40. | |
Tell me what happened on the night The Americans have said they | :17:40. | :17:46. | |
believe that there was gunfire aimed at their agents and they | :17:46. | :17:56. | |
believe there was a boat that was trafficking drugs on the river that | :17:56. | :18:06. | |
:18:06. | :18:06. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds | :18:06. | :18:48. | |
night -- and their agents. Do you For decades, the US military has | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
maintained a presence in Honduras. Hundreds of American troops are | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
stationed at this base. Their focus used to be the war against | :18:57. | :19:06. | |
communism, in neighbouring Nicaragua was. Now it is the war on | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
drugs. The Americans are using sophisticates in supposed to | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
intercept the trafficking flights into eastern Honduras. This bussed | :19:16. | :19:26. | |
:19:26. | :19:26. | ||
on local television left one man dead and three captured -- asked. | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
In the last month he was struck enforcement agents have killed | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
suspected traffickers in an operation similar to walk this one | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
-- American. The crackdown is intense fine but given the recent | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
history in the country, endemic corruption and persistent | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
allegations of human rights abuses, as Washington have a reliable | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
partner? Ambassador, will come to HARDtalk. | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
Thank you. When you deal with the June government do you believe you | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
can trust it? -- Honduran. In any government you have different parts | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
of a government. If you talk about the President, the way you | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
articulates his goals, many programmes we have seen him put in | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
place, are things that we see as good for the country and also of | :20:26. | :20:35. | |
mutual interest for the US. If you ask me about the police force, it | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
was the one to mince who uncovered how ugly the problems were in the | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
police force -- the people of Honduras. What we have done his | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
whole parts of the police force and the units out side it to clean up. | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
Here you have said how hot it is to imagine people to trust the police? | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
-- how hard. I have said it is extremely important for the police | :21:04. | :21:13. | |
force to be trustful and are to -- and to be honest and one to | :21:13. | :21:23. | |
investigate crimes. You have a country in which the institutions | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
of government have not worked as well as they should have. They are | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
fragile. As well as supporting the police, the US is giving extra | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
support to the Honduran military and to bring its own up on Asians | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
in the field. I must talk to you about one thing -- its own agents. | :21:44. | :21:54. | |
:21:54. | :21:54. | ||
In a small remote village where we visited, US and Honduran on agents | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
fired up on a boat on the river, which is now clear was full of | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
civilians. Is the US now prepared to say that was a terrible error? | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
Those are not the facts as we know them. What we understand and was | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
that a plane with drugs, almost half a time of drugs, came in and | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
landed, unloaded, but the drugs on a boat to go down the river. | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
this boat. Let me get there. They push the boat into the river. The | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
authorities would after it to seize the drugs. -- went after it. They | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
were fired upon and they were returning the FA. Let me finish. | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Having said that, they is a Honduran government investigation | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
under way as well as well as the US Drug Enforcement Agency | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
investigation. -- the fire. have your age has not spoken to the | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
lady we spoke to who was on the boat -- your investigation? They | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
are two investigations going on right now. The response that -- the | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
responsibility we feel we have is to understand all the facts of the | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
case. If you have mentioned somebody who was not in too cute, | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
by the government or by us, that is information I can take back -- not | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
been too few. Until we know all the facts of the case it is | :23:40. | :23:50. | |
inappropriate to comment -- not interviewed. They have suggested | :23:50. | :23:58. | |
there was no wrongdoing. The context is that last year there | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
were more than 100 planes come into the country with drugs. The | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
government's highest roti is to prevent drugs from coming into the | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
country. -- priority. Injuries and death are not the norm. Thank you | :24:13. | :24:22. | |
:24:23. | :24:25. | ||
for being on HARDtalk. My pleasure. Honduras's geography is a curse. | :24:25. | :24:35. |