Maryam Al-Khawaja - Bahraini Human Rights Activist HARDtalk

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Now it is time for HARDtalk. The future of the Gulf state of Bahrain

remains uncertain after 18 months of street protests inspired by the

Arab Spring. Some of the most outspoken Bahraini critics of the

ruling Khalifa family are behind bars, and violent clashes between

police and demonstrators continue. Maryam Al-Khawaja is a prominent

human rights campaigner whose father was sentenced to life in

prison for plotting to overthrow the government. Who will win the

fight for Bahrain's future? Maryam Al-Khawaja, welcome to

HARDtalk. Thank you. Let me ask you are you are in Copenhagen? I know

you have dual citizenship - Danish citizenship as well as Bahrain. Why

are you there, when many people would think he would be fighting

the fight in Bahrain itself? There are several ways and several tools

one uses as a human rights defender when it comes to fighting

violations. One of those tools his international advocacy. It is

important to have people on the ground were documenting the

violations and making sure the outside knows about it, but it's

also important for people on the outside to make sure that

information is given to those who can use it to preserve human rights

and stop the violations. My job is international advocacy. Meeting

with people who might be able to influence the human rights

situation in Bahrain. You are an activist, a campaigner. You are

also a daughter. Your father has been retried on the most serious

security charges, found guilty, and sentenced, again, to life in prison.

Have you spoken to your father in the last few days? The last time I

spoke to my father was 3-4 days ago, yes. In the recent past, he has

conducted a hunger strike that lasted more than 100 days because

of his treatment and the judicial process inside place-mac 1's prison

system. Now that he has been convicted again -- Bahrain's...

What is he going to do? judicial system in Bahrain is not

independent off-air. It does not hold up the international standards

of a fair trial. -- or fair. If they were to come out and say this

was the final stage in the process, the international community would

become an uproar.... Now I am still waiting for the lawyer to tell us

whether my father has decided to appeal again for a verdict.

suffered grave injuries at the time of his arrest, and it seems

afterwards as well. We know he had major surgery on his face. His jaw

was wired together. How would you describe his physical and mental

health right now? I think mentally he is perfectly well. Like I said,

I spoke to him a few days ago and he is in high spirits. He explains

to me all the time that the initial demand of this movement is not the

release of the political prisoners or the release of the prisoners of

conscience. That is something that will come additionally as a result

of the crackdown that came after the initiation of the protests. The

initial demands are preserving and institutionalising human rights, a

government that respects human rights. For a lot of these

political prisoners, they understand that their presence in

prison is not the initial demand of the movement. They understand that

being in prison as part of the process. Mentally speaking, he's

very strong and he knows that this is part of the price for preserving

human rights in the country. Physically speaking, of course, he

is still recovering as it was a very long hunger-strike which

lasted 110 days. It will take quite a while and took he is fully

recovered. He seems to be doing better. You say high spirits, but I

wonder if he, and indeed you, have been disappointed by what one would

call a muted international reaction to the latest court decision. The

United States expressed serious disappointment, the Danish

government protested about it, the U N Advisory Group on arbitrary

detention made a comment, but it was fairly muted. You disappointed?

I'm not sure about him, but according to my work

internationally, this is not something that I am shocked by.

There has been more or less a muted response towards most of the human

rights violations in Bahrain, including extra-judicial killings,

sometimes of miners under 18. We have seen parts of the Danish

government, the spokesperson for the ruling party in Denmark, come

out and talk about initiating a dialogue on sanctions against

Bahrain. I think that is an important step forward and

something that is welcomed by the human rights group in Bahrain. We

look forward to seeing what concrete actions will be taken

towards stopping the human rights violations. Of course, as we always

say, you judge his situation in any country by looking at how they

treat their human rights defenders. Currently in Bahrain, the most

prominent human rights defenders are in prison. If I go back, even

if there is no standing warrant, I will be arrested for banned from

travelling. That is why, for the time being, it is better for me to

stay a broad and try to advocate for the human rights situation in

Bahrain. Not that I am afraid of going back - I think that sometimes

in certain countries the place for at any just person or a person

fighting for justice, is the prison system. Do you see yourself as a

revolutionary? I am mindful something you said in March 2011 at

the height of the protest in Bahrain - you referred your return

to the country just a few days before, you said "I came back after

the revolution started". You still see yourself as a revolutionary?

think we characterise ourselves more specifically as human rights

defenders. In countries where you have authoritarian regimes,

automatically, as a human rights defender, you are considered one of

the worst enemies of the government. You automatically become part of

the revolutionary process that takes place in these countries. As

such, looking at it from this perspective, I guess we are

regarded as being part of the revolutionary process. It is

important to differentiate between being a human rights campaigner and

a revolutionary. If you really see your ultimate goal to be achieved

only through the overthrow of the current regime in Bahrain, it is

hardly surprising that the sorts of reforms the government has made in

the last few months are never going to be acceptable to you because you

have made the decision that VAT regime must go, yes? -- that that.

No. Our stance has always been very public - as a human rights

organisation we do not call for the change of the regime, we call for a

specific government. We don't call for a democracy, a monarchy, a

republic - we call for a government that respects human rights. That

institutionalise his human rights and grants people their rights as

citizens of that country. One of the things we have said, though, it

is that if the King, the Prime Minister and the Crown Prince are

found to be guilty of crimes against humanity or other kinds of

human rights violations, they need to be held accountable. That should

only come in the form of an open, fair and independent trial

according to international standards. But if human rights is

your prime and sole concern, why have I not heard warm words of

welcome for you and your colleagues for the substantial changes that

the Kinnock and his team have made in the last few months? First of

all, the independent committee of inquiry. -- the King.... We have

seen reforms of the security services, police service reforms,

promises that there will be no more of these secret interrogations

behind closed doors with no cameras. I could point to you a whole list

of reforms that your government has pledged to make. I would have to

clarify here - first of all, as human rights defenders and as the

Bahrain Centre for Human Rights, I have stayed on several occasions

that we welcome these changes. We might have differences with some of

the parts of the report, but we welcome it in general. We hope that

would be a turning point for Bahrain where we would see an end

to the human rights violations. There is a huge difference to

making pledges of reform and actually reforming. What we have

seen, and we have a document of this in the reports you can find on

a website, is that the violations that were mentioned in this report

have continued to happen on the ground. There is a huge difference

between welcoming the recommendations of the report

itself and saying "the Bahrain regime is not implementing the

promises they made". With respect, it's not all the tricks. We have

seen hundreds of prisoners released over the last six months --

rhetoric. We have seen additional pressure on the parliament to

scrutinise legislation. For you to dismiss it as an empty rhetoric is

not acceptable. Of course. We have said that there have been some

recommendations that have been implemented, such as setting up

cameras in police stations. There is a difference between

acknowledging some of the steps forward and also making a very

obvious, talking about the recommendations that have not been

fulfilled. One of the initial things are the recommendations that

could have been filled within days that have not happened, for example

- using excessive force against protesters on the streets. They

just needed to be an order issued from the highest authorities in the

country that police were no longer allowed to use excessive force.

That has not happened. Accountability - people who have

ordered, overseen or participated in violations against human rights,

King's own son - there have been several accusations and allegations

of him being involved in torture. We haven't seen people being held

accountable. We are still looking at a situation where the very basic

violations that were documented last year are still ongoing....

have interviewed the senior member of the government in Bahrain. He

pointed out, and it seems to be true, that up to 50 different

investigations and allegations against security force personnel

have been undertaken by the government. It's not as though they

are doing nothing. Of course, but the question is - how many people

have actually been sentenced? How many people have been stopped from

going to work? The police who were investigated are still on duty, and

they are people were being charged with things like torture. You are

looking at a situation where the government, within 24 hours, then

claimed that they have caught terrorists, people who are planning

terrorist activities. But it takes the more than 1.5 years to find

someone who shot a protest in the back. I find it hard to believe

they can't find these people who have committed these crimes when it

comes to people who are serving in the government, but it takes them

only a matter of hours to figure out which protester throws which

Molotov cocktail. We do except that one of the problems, one of the

reasons why the tension is so high and it seems there is so much

mistrust in Bahrain right now, is because protesters continued to

take to the streets with Molotov cocktails, with rocks as well, and

attacked the security forces? We know at least five members of the

security forces have been killed. There continue to be injuries on

their side. Would you say that one of the biggest problems is that

demonstrators refused to adopt non- The Bahrain Centre for Human Rights

has been very specific in saying that protesters have to be non-

violent and that we do not condone any acts of violence, no matter who

is committing them. The situation has to be looked at in the full

context. The five members of the security forces who were killed

were all last year. This year and since Molotov cocktails started, we

have not seen any doubts. Not that this condone his findings. But we

have to differentiate the amount of violence being used by the regime

against protesters and protesters who say they are defending

themselves by using things like Molotov cocktails. On the one hand,

systematic state run violence on the streets being carried out by

security forces loyal to the regime. On the other hand, small groups of

young boys who used Molotov cocktails and stones due to the

inaction of the international community in relation to human

rights violations. When you use powerful language like that,

painting images like that, I wonder if you agree with some prominent

politicians, Shi'ite politicians, who say that despite all the

tensions and problems with the Bahraini government, it is time to

talk. Time for a dialogue without preconditions. Hearing you and your

characterisation of what is happening, it seems to me that you

do not believe a dialogue without preconditions would be helpful. Do

you? As human rights defenders, we are not engaged. We do not offer

his stance on political dialogue. We are not involved in political

discussions. That said, it is important for the human rights

violations to stop first. Attacks on people in the street, nightly

raids on people's homes. Torture in unofficial detention centres.

you say that, you are making a very political statement. When you are

saying the government cannot be taken at face value, that they

cannot be believed and therefore cannot be talked to at this moment

in time, that is very, very political. I am not saying they

cannot be talked to. That is not something we will engage in,

however, because we are not a political society. If we want the

best to come out of these talks, we have got to see a stop to human

rights violations. That is our only position. Whether there is or not a

political dialogue, that is not our place to say. I have mentioned the

Shi'ite community and that political party. It is clear that

as tensions continue in Bahrain, it is becoming more and more sectarian.

Would you except that? I would think that the majority of the

sectarian tensions that are developing in Bahrain - and I spoke

about this more than one year ago when I said that if the community,

the international community did not move fast enough, sectarian

violence will build up in Bahrain - this started from the regime itself.

The fact that the regime started a sectarian crackdown was a message,

local and international, in first - - in portraying the situation as

sectarian. It was not that at first. The more people are targeted

because of their sector, it is more likely that people will turn

sectarian. You know much more than I do that the Bahraini government

is adamant that senior figures in the activist movement, including

your father, have had direct contact - they call it intelligence

contact - with agencies working on behalf of Iran. It seems they mean

Hezbollah more than anybody else. Is that true? The regime's own

report, the Bahrain independent commission of inquiry, found no

evidence of Iran being involved in the protest movements in Bahrain.

My father, for example, and other people involved in that case I'll

recognised individuals by the international community's. Human

Rights Watch conducted a thorough report of the trial, especially of

the Bahrain 13 including my father, which found that all of the charges

against these people were made it based on actions that they had

conducted based on freedom of expression, based on their right to

protest and otherwise. With respect, there is freedom of expression and

there is freedom of expression. One senior member of the Shura council

who has been on this programme claims that there is clear evidence

including video evidence of Shi'ite clerics in some of the villagers

were most of the unrest has been saying inciting young Shi'ite

activists to take to the streets. First of all, there is a difference.

You are talking about people in the court case. Relating to that, I

want to see the evidence. The government has not provided that.

If we are talking about clerics on the streets, it depends on what

they are saying. Calling for violence is problematic. They must

be given a fair and independent trial. That is something the

judiciary system in Bahrain does not supply. If they are not calling

for violence, if they are calling for people to go out and practise

their right to protest, that is not a violation of the law. That is

something that is guaranteed by the Declaration of Human Rights

internationally. I want to ask you about where the US stands in all of

this. We can tell from your voice that you have had some education in

the US. You know the US very well and you have some context there.

How disappointed are you in the way that the Obama administration has

failed to stand up for you, the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights and

the opposition movement inside Bahrain?

It is very problematic when we see the kind of double standards coming

from places like the US today. The US, because of their Fifth Fleet

and by rain's geopolitical interest with the US, we are seeing the

rhetoric today that if you are an ally of the West, an ally of the UK

and US, you can get away with human rights that -- violations. Not only

can you get away with it, it will not be discussed internationally.

They will actually continue to sell you arms while you are continuing

to commit those violations. That is very difficult for countries that,

out, saying that they have a pledge towards human rights and

democracies. I can give you a quote from a

leading figure in the opposition movement who is serving his and

three-year sentence in Bahrain. He said not long ago that Americans

are against democracy in Bahrain, now. Do you believe that? For many

people living inside Bahrain, they see the US as being involved in

this situation. Given that the US has not taken a very consistent,

strong stance on human rights violations, given that there have

not been any consequences towards the bar rainy regime for these

violations that they continue to commit. Many people believe that

the US is condoning these violations going on in Bahrain. I

have spoken with people in the US and gave him only stand against

that. They say they are not condoning the violations. They say

they want to see an end to the violations. But until we see very

specific actions... Actions that actually put pressure on the

Bahrain regime to stop violations, we will continue to see a rise in

anti-US sentiment inside Bahrain. Briefly, because we are almost at

the end, not only have you got this problem with the US, you have been

barred from post revolutionary Egypt as well. When you look around

and you look at the power that the Bahrain government seems to have

today, would you accept that there is very little hope of the

opposition movement in Bahrain achieving its goals in the

foreseeable future? Well, you know... I don't like

calling it the Arab Spring, which is what it is known as

internationally, but if we look at that specifically, there are many

countries where the protests started and people said it was not

possible for them to achieve anything. That the dictator or the

regime at that point was too strong. And yet they have been able to

achieve. In our work as human rights defenders, we have got to