William Ruto - Kenyan presidential candidate HARDtalk

trial in the International Criminal Court in the Hague. One of them

there, William Ruto, is here today. I Kenya's politicians failing their

people? William Ruto, welcome to HARDtalk.

I want to talk politics and I want to talk justice with you. Let us

start with justice. You are scheduled to face trial at the

International Criminal Court in the Hague in April of 2013. Do you

intend to present yourself before the court? I have presented myself

before. I have taken myself there when I was requested. I intend to

present myself at any other time in the future. So if, as is currently

planned, there is a trial and you are put on trial in 2013, you will

be there? I did not say that. I will be there. I just think

everybody wants to know. There is enormous scrutiny on this case. You

know that people around the world are watching. It 10 is another test

case for international justice. It is a time when you are running for

the presidency of Kenya next year. At a time when you are absolutely

committed to go to the ICC in April, one month after the election.

In that case, what is your message to the Kenyan people? If you

succeed in winning the presidency, almost the first thing you will do

is absent herself from the country, and judging the way the ICC works,

it is very unlikely you would be given bail. In effect, you would be

an absent president on trial in a foreign country. I am surprised

that you are already aware that I will not be given bail. Really

surprised. But the way the ICC has worked in the past, usually

offenders are not. To the best of my knowledge, and on the advice of

my a Chinese, we have not breached any of the conditions attached to

the trial. -- my attorney's. We have done the best we could to keep

the limits that were signed to us. That is why are we are conducting

this case. I do not see any of the circumstances that were attached to

it our trial changing. Therefore, there will be absolutely no reason

for any body to change the parameters of the way the case is

being conducted. To the best of my knowledge, I will appear in the

heyday, as has happened in the past, the case will proceed. We will be

required, once in a while, to be personally presented in court.

Which we will. In the rest of the time, we will conduct our business.

See you think it is practical and feasible for you to be both

President of Kenya, if you succeed in the campaign, and a defendant at

the ICC? Taking into account that both the ICC process and the

constitution of Kenya hold me as a man who is innocent, I do not find

any difficulty in being President of Kenya as the case is running

against me. Do you think the Kenyan people will want a leader who, as I

have be looking at the documents before the ICC now, a leader who,

in your case, faces charges of being a co-conspirator in crimes

against humanity, is alleged to have been a key planner of a

campaign of violence in your home territory, who is alleged to have

supervised the purchase and distribution of weapons, given

instruction on homes to be targeted and people to be displaced? Is that

the sort of man, facing those sorts of charges, that should be seeking

the highest office in Kenya? That is the message that my competitors

would want. To persuade the Kenyan electorate to not support me. But

if the people of Kenya, despite that campaign, which the people of

Kenyan no, because they know me, they know what I'll do. They know

the charges that have been filed against me. They can make their

choice. Whether, on the basis of those charges, they can go ahead

and support me or not. If they choose to vote for me, it shows

very clearly that they have an idea as to how we ended up with this

kind of charges. But the people cannot know if you are innocent or

guilty. There is a very basic principle that a man is presumed

innocent until proven guilty. But the court has not yet heard the

evidence. Given the gravity of the charges, and the nature of the

evidence against two that we have seen from a variety of sources, we

know that they are very serious. On that basis, do you really think it

is for the best for Kenya for you to pursue the presidency?

Absolutely. To help this country. A gang of people can conspire in a

corner. We have spoken about Kofi Annan. Kofi Annan has nothing

against me. Those reports have been discredited. But I pointed to

evidence. I have got a report that name due with a very specific

allegations and accuses you of a key role in the killing of hundreds

and the displacement of thousands of people in your home territory.

Did to know there are two Kenyan human rights report by the same

commission, saying different things? Are you aware? I am aware

that you will challenge the allegations that have been put

before you. But I am also aware that lots of witnesses have been

interviewed. The evidence against you is not just based on a couple

of voices. It is based on a whole number. Are you also aware that all

those witnesses, especially the key witnesses, have also confessed that

they are criminals? Are you also aware? Do you want to believe a

person who says that they are a criminal? That I am accusing

William Ruto of this and this and this? I know that you have

challenged the credibility and ferocity of the witnesses who are

key to the case against two. But I also know there are serious

allegations that your supporters have intimidated and tried to

discredit witnesses. They have even conspired, and this is a quote from

the minutes of a meeting of the so- called friends of Honourable

William Ruto, to move against witnesses. You should not give any

justice to this interview. You should have let me bring quotes to

counter what you are saying. This is not about the case at the ICC.

It is about how your own friends and supporters have responded to

the fact. I have no friends like these. They do not exist. It is a

publication of your sauce. You should not try and give credibility

to a sauce that is not unverified. These minutes are quite clear. They

say that people should be presented with limited options. They should

be given a handsome cash incentive or more or punitive measures.

is garbage. It is garbage from the sewer. This organisation... Is a

figment of an evil opposition. to sit before me now, the idea, and

again it comes with details, the idea that you incited your people

to act of violence against the supposedly enemy in your midst is

something that you flat out, categorically deny? Let me tell you.

Some of the estates, let me tell you, whatever is being said about

planning about the buying of guns, about other allegations, absolute

fantasy. It did not happen. Including facts that are so obvious

that even on dates when I was allegedly supposed to be

distributing guns in my house, there is documentary evidence as to

where I was. Miles and kilometres from my house. In a public place.

Captured by the Kenyan free media. What further evidence could you

need? It is not just do who faces trial at the ICC. There are three

other senior Kenyan figures. One of them, who like you is running for

Do you think that it is likely before the March election and

before the ICC trial that you and Carew Kenyatta can come to some

sort of understanding for political deal that only one of you will only

go forward to actually fight this presidential election? Why would we

do that? They are Kenyans that believe you would do it because you

will reach an understanding that should one of you become President

the other will take a very senior position, perhaps vice president,

and the understanding will be that both of you will operate on the

understanding that you will use the amenity powers that will come with

the presidency to insure that the ICC trial never happens. We have

absolutely no intention of interfering with the ICC process.

Absolutely none. My quest for the presidency of Kenya has nothing to

do with the ICC process. I was a candidate at the nomination stage

in 2007. Cantata was a candidate in 2002. There was no ICC. There was

no ICC when I was a candidate for the podium nominations in 2007.

Therefore I am running this time around... Nobody should ever think

that we are trying to run for President mealy because we are

suspects. Right? We are running because we believe we are leaders

and we have a contribution to make to this country.And in Kenya as a

very successful businessman. I think it is fair to say that you

have never allowed your political career to stand in the way of

making money. Would you say that is there? That is a very wrong

statement. -- fair. First despite my humble background I have worked

hard. I work very hard. Everybody appreciates in this country that

Willian Ruto works very hard. suppose what I'm getting at is

whether politics in this country actually makes it easier to make

money. In many countries politicians are genuinely full-time

politicians and when they go into public life they at the very least

put their business interests into blind trusts, or have other people

run them, and leave business altogether. For your information I

don't do any business. You don't do any business at all? Whatever

business interests I have they are done by people who run those

businesses on a professional basis, and that's it. And you have faced

serious allegations of corruption, you fought them and you have won

court cases and you have had your name cleared. But as we have

discussed, and I think you've agreed, Kenyon needs politicians

who are frankly seemingly squeaky- clean. Do you fit that bill? I do.

If you are accused of something you are taken to court, because

accusation is an allegation. Right? And you are cleared by the court.

Guilty or not guilty. If you are cleared by the Court, are you are

innocent or are you guilty? Let's put it that way. It seems strange

that allegations seem to be attracted to you, with it is the

Kenya Tight Lines scandal, whether it was the maize scandal when you

were in agriculture. -- pipelines. You seem to attract these legal

difficulties if I can put it that way. Why do you think that is?

you come from a background like mine and you work hard, and people

cannot just place me, Willian Ruto, the son of who? How can he come

this far? There must be some short cuts he has done. Therefore we have

to check. There is a real discussion at the moment in Kenya

as to whether the candidate running for President should be allowed to

spend as freely as he once in the campaign. There has been talking

Parliament of curving campaign spending, of implementing new

campaign finance regulation, do you support that? I do. By believe that

Kenyans should be able to make choices -- I believe. These choices

should be on the basis of what these candidates stand for, not on

the basis of how much money they have. You I know are raising an

awful lot of money. You have had your 100,000 shinning a-plate

dinners, some have made many millions of shillings, you and can

data are perhaps seen as the best endowed financially of the

presidential candidates, you might dispute that. But how much are you

prepared to spend to win this election? I am prepared to spend

the money enough to take me to the position, what policy programmes I

have for this country. That is how much I need to be able to be

elected President of Kenya. I need to be able to explain myself to as

many Kenyans as I can, time allowing. How much do you think it

will take? You have talked about us raising $41 million... 41 million

schillings, which is a lot of money. But in terms of politics and how

much you need to spend, even to produce election material alone,

that money is not enough. All right? So you will spend your own

money, Your Own Business Money? will spend money from friends.

much would you spend? Hundreds of millions of Kenyan shillings?

will make it available to the people of Kenya to see. When we

carried out our fund-raising we did not do it under cover. We brought

it to the public domain. And if I may say so you have always talked

about transparency and you may be more than can utter have said yes

I'm wealthy but I am prepared to account for every single penny that

I have made. Now on HARDtalk will you tell the Kenyan people how much

you are worth? I don't think that's a discussion for here. You are the

man that says transparency is Keith. I am not in the League of the rich

people of Kenya -- he's keep. But I am not a poor man. The problem for

Kenya is that political insecurities and instabilities seem

to have slowed down Kenya's attractiveness to foreign

investment. How do you persuade the world that Kenya is not facing a

new period of instability, as this election campaign unfolds? You have

put it correctly. The single critical issue that we must address,

and that is going to determine this election, is how to build the

economy. Who has what it takes to grow the economy of Kenya? Our

neighbours are growing the economy at 12 %. Across in Ghana they are

growing the economy at 13 %. Our economy is growing at 4.5 %.

There's no reason why the Kenyan economy cannot grow by double

digits. Right? And there are clear specific growth areas that if you

have a government, and specifically a leader, who has a track record

like I have. In ministry that I have run in this country, I took

the Minister of Agriculture to the heights of number one. I went to

the Ministry of higher education and I did the same. This country

requires a leader who is a performer, he knows where the

trouble is and he goes for it and he unravels it. To go back to the

beginning, you think you can deliver that message and persuade

the outside world that you know how to deliver that economic growth for

Kenya at the same time as appearing before an international tribunal

charged with serious crimes against humanity. You see no contradiction

there whatsoever? I see no contradiction at all. Because this

is a job I have to do for Kenya. As for the allegations, they are

allegations. Right? And the people of Kenya are the jury. If the

people of Kenya decide that they have seen the allegations against

William Ruto, he has at what it takes to run his country. But the

jury sits in The Hague. And all the evidence can find you guilty and

that means you will be a President in a jail in a foreign country.

jury are the Kenyan people. We are talking about an election here, we

are not conducting the case in the election. It is not about the case

in The Hague, it is about electing a president for Kenya who will take