Ian Thorpe - Winner of Five Olympic Swimming Gold Medals HARDtalk


Ian Thorpe -  Winner of Five Olympic Swimming Gold Medals

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or no tax on their UK income. Time for HARDtalk.

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Every so often, an athlete comes around whose achievements capture

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the attention of the whole world. My guest today is the extraordinary

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Australian swimmer, Ian Thorpe. At the height of his prowess in 2006,

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he resigned, leaving sports fans mystified. Now, he has revealed

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that throughout his career of gold medals and world records, he was

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suffering from crippling depression. How can it be that sporting

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excellence and mental torment could co-exist?

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In the last few months, you have dug deep into your own

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vulnerability. Not talking just about the sport but your psyche,

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yourself. How difficult has that been? It has been a very difficult

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process because it is actually get a meeting to yourself that you see

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part of your life for part of your existence as not being complete.

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And that is how I felt about it for a long time, that there is

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something missing in me. But in doing so, I have also accepted that

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this is what I am struggling through and putting it out there

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for people to see and showing a vulnerability that often is the

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back story behind a number of athletes. That will surprise a

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number of people. Because the key word is vulnerability. When you

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look at elite athletes at the top of the game, the last thing they

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appeared to be is vulnerable. agree. It is seeing that

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performance. What most people see is just that tiny sliver of what an

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athlete or someone in the public eye actually does. When I race, I

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walk out with all the confidence in the world but behind that, there is

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a lot going on. It is a mask. and you wear it to protect yourself.

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You put it on to portray something that you think is ideal for that

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situation. We all do it. If you are going for a job interview, you show

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your best side. You don't tell them you will be lazy and Jeff Facebook.

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But in sport, we put that on and it is part of the show. The Mask For

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You was describing something very specific and actually something

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very troubling. Because you have now talked about the way you have

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suffered from severe depression, you caught it crippling. I have had

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depression for a number of years. Going back to childhood. At the

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time, I did not know the words around this. It didn't feel right.

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I knew I had depression when I was in my early teens. The severity of

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it was not all that that at that stage but it became worse and worse

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while I was still being very successful. That is the thing.

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Let's not forget, you won or First World Championship at 15, which was

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a header off at the time. -- unheard-of. You will be coming your

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best while dealing with these periods of bleakness, blackness.

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Did swimming help alleviate the symptoms or exacerbate the

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symptoms? I think I would have dealt with depression. I believe it

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is something you are born with and is then exacerbated by

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environmental pressures. But I look at cases of depression in sports

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and I think there is an elevated level compared to the rest of the

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population. Every doctor will recommend if you have depression to

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do more exercise because it makes you feel good. That is why there

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are more people in sport who have depression. And the circumstances

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in elite sport may contribute to it in a way that makes it more

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challenging. One thing that strikes me about your early years is that

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people lashed on to your amazing Celine physique. There was a lot of

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talk about how you were genetically built to be an amazing swimmer.

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Tall body, and very big feet. Do that for the year? You were putting

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in all this hard work and people were suggesting that no-one could

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compete with you because you were built in a way that no-one else was.

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I find it funny that this apparently became the ideal

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physique. Since then, he will have beaten those records and now there

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is a new ideal physique for swimming. I think this was just a

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way of explaining my performances to people. It did not come from

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physique were talent but a lot of hard work. I realised that have

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recently when I did not qualify for the London Olympics. It is not just

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about talent. We cannot talk about the decision to get back into the

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swimming pool without talking about your decision to leave the swimming

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pool. Many thought this was at a ridiculously early age and still at

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your peak. When you look at your life in the team up to that

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decision, do you now think you made a decision -- a terrible mistake?

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Not at all. I had to do it. My career was not mind any more. I

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felt like I do not have control over what I was doing. I felt like

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my performances were four other people. I lost the simplicity and

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the beauty of this fault of swimming. And I felt an immense

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amount of pressure for other people -- from other people to continue

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doing something that I was really miserable doing. And I knew I had

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to get out of it. Talking about the misery, where you are using your

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body? You have talked a little bit about alcohol in your life. How bad

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was that? I think it is looking at the depression and not having a

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handle over it and looking for any solution possible to just clear

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yourself of the thoughts that you're having when you are in those

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depths of depression. Hand so, there was a period when I was

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drinking too much because I just wanted to forget. I would wake up

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the next day and feeling worse. I would be even more depressed and I

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would have a hangover. I would go to training and do it all again and

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I would not have addressed what the issues worth. Unfortunately, I

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realised -- and fortunately, and realise that this was not helping,

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it was making things worse. And I had to delve deeper into what was

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depression for me and getting my head around that because I didn't

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understand that. In this interview, we have spoken about it from us and

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isolation. Do you have anyone in your life you could talk to about

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this? I chose not to because for so many years, I was embarrassed. I

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did not want to talk about it. All children want to please their

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parents on this very basic level. Did they not have the sense that

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something was wrong? They did not know because I acted it very well.

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They did not know. I was constantly covering up my tracks. They saw me

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happy most of the time and most of the time I was happy. However,

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there were times when it was put on because I did not want them to know.

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You must be one heck of an actor. think I must have been. And now

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that I have told them, it hurts them because I thought I could not

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tell them. They want to help me. Even in those times when you have

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actually said that late at night you would lie down and think about

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suicide, and you would think about the how and the wear of doing it,

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even then you couldn't talk to your mother? Somebody you were

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extraordinarily tall -- host to the many ways? I am, but you have to

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realise the rationality of depression is that you don't think

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in that way. You start to see something like suicide as complete

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the viable. And it becomes an option. And you think at the time

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that it is actually rational. It is only after you have gone through

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that period that you realise it was completely irrational and that is

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when you seek help. It is not at the time of suicide that you

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consider help. How close - honestly - do you think you came? I think

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there is a part of considering what suicide would be like... I don't

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think it is unnatural to think like that. But when you start being in a

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place where you look at the methodology, how would you do the

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least amount of damage to your family if you were to do it...

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Moving into the used her away for their... And when you cannot clear

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your mind of this kind of thinking for hours or sometimes days, you

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know that you are very close. And I am lucky that I did not get to that

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point. That I didn't get into that process of action. What we have not

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talked about yet is what was going on outside of your family and those

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closest to you. That is, the enormous pressure Australia,

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particularly the Australian media, was placing upon you. I wonder

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whether you as a teenager, and you were in your mid-to-late teens,

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your early 20s, the fact that he became the subject of so much

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speculation about your private life, the way you live your life, was

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that something that became impossible for you to handle?

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Australia's expectations. It became a weight. It became too difficult

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for me to be able to handle all of this when all I wanted was to train

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and swim and race. And that was taken away from me. And the context

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of swimming changed for me. This is why I had to leave the sport

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because I wanted to get my life back. I want to quote something by

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Martin Flanagan in the Melbourne Age. He wrote, each day the media

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reports on the fence in the sprinting world -- sporting world

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with the time that should be preserved for war or serious

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disasters. The guillotine falls on athletes who are not yet even

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adults. Does this mean we should re-examine the way we look at sport

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and sports people? There is a responsibility that comes with any

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reporting in the media. I think that will place too high a value on

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sport when there are things going on around the world, world issues

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that need to be addressed, that should have this language attached

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to it. If you start to think like that, you cannot be an elite

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sportsmen, can you? Because you have to have a 100% one-dimensional

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commitment to believe in this is your destiny, this is what you must

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think, you must prepare a full, and if you lose that, you will never

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get to the top. That is not true, you have to see the world. You have

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to know your place in the world. If you don't have enough balance, you

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will never have a tremendously successful career. It may last for

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one competition, but it cannot be sustained.

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I was shocked when I realised an Australian newspaper reporter had

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asked you about your sexuality and whether you were gay was when you

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were 16 years old. What did that do to you? It made me look at what is

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the need to? I had respect for this journalist. I was told that a

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journalist's job was on the line if they did not ask the question. I

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thought it was inappropriate. If someone goes and becomes a

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journalist, they have noble intentions, but the way it is

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corrupted by editors and what not in the media, I feel sorry that we

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have gone down this path. It reduces people to have to get into

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that gossipy area. I am sure their intentions when they started were

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not that. I am just not sure why in a sense you have vowed to playing

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that game. You wrote a very frank book over the past year. In it to

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talk about her sexuality. - Make your sexuality. You say that you

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are not gay and Europe only relationships have been with women.

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Why have you gone there? You clearly resents the way the media

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is trying to meddle in your private life. Why tell us this? People

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think it is a big deal for me. It really isn't. I do not have a

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problem talking about it in an intelligent way. Whatever I do,

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whatever I say, it will not change people's opinions. So why did I

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write it? It is to say to people that if I were a day I would not

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have an issue with it. The part I find offensive in all of this is

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that I am trying to deceive people. I am completely honest about it.

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People think I am being dishonest. But by writing about it, you have

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surely ensured that your every sort of personal and private moment and

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decision from now on will be scrutinised. It already has been.

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You think you are above it and cannot escape from that? When I

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stopped swimming I felt as though I would be able to escape a lot of

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his public attention. One of the hardest things when I returned to

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summing was putting myself back up to the level of scrutiny I

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experienced before. The hardest barrier to overcome. But I accepted

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that this will become part of my life again. There is another

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difficult element to sport. That is drugs. A French newspaper, in 2007,

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just months after you quit the sport, ran a story saying they had

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information that one of the tests you had taken you had shown

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abnormal levels of two particular substances that were connected to

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doping. There was a long investigation. You protested your

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innocence. But it cast a shadow. Do you think that shadow has been

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eliminated? For the most part, yes. But it will always remain. There

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was an accusation of doping and cheating in the sport. I had two

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irregular readings of two different hormones. My tests continue to come

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back negative. I was completely innocent. But that will always be

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on my record. Isn't that always the problem in sport now? If I ask you,

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did you cheat, you will say, of course I have never. I knew you

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would say that. You have been on record. But think about the lance

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Armstrong for that. The problem is that some of the greatest sporting

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icons and champions of full-time have gotten away with cheating. At

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the same time they have been able to put forward proof that they were

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able to pass countless drug tests. There seems to be a sophisticated

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way of dodging the bullet. How much credibility can delete sport have?

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The important thing that we need to get back to is an approach that

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when somebody does do something incredible, that people applaud the

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performance, they should not assume the person is taking drugs. That is

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what sport needs to work towards, getting back to that stage. --

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stage. The testing procedures are the best they have ever been. They

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are not perfect. Some things can be improved. One of the best things

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that has been introduced is a blood passport that has not existed

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before. You're adamant you never took drugs. But do you believe you

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swam against people who were taking drugs? Not great rivals of mine.

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But I have beaten people who were taking drugs. We have talked in

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troubling detail about the difficulties you had with

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everything that came with swimming at the very top in your late genius

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and 20s. We have also talked about the corrosive reality of drugs in

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sport. I am just wondering why on earth, having quit and walked away,

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you recently made the decision to go back? I wanted to swim again.

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You can swim without getting locked into this whole rigmarole of

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constant daily training, media pressure and question marks about

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who is cheating. I wanted to some at an elite level. It is part of

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what I do. I want to move in the water. I want to train. It is an

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very elite level. I feel as perfect as it possibly can in the water.

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This is my appeal in swimming. It is not about beating. It is about

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finding the perfect stroke. To do that I have to go through a lot of

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training. It is in competition I get to feel that. It is interesting

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you decided to come back in a time when Australia is struggling to

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find world champions a mess. During your time, Sydney was doing

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fantastically. Now there is a national commission of inquiry to

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discover why not one Australian coach has been able to find out why

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Australian summers are going soft. That is a generalisation. Some

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people do need a kick from behind to get going. Given that you are

:20:14.:20:21.

now training with them and back in a national team? I think there is a

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lot of competition as to why this chillier swam so well. It is not as

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simple as people are soft. There will be an inquiry into what is

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happening in sport. It is not just swimming. Trant Butcher finger on

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what the problem has been. There are multiple problems. There is a

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lot of competition. We had a lot of champions. They are competing for a

:20:51.:20:59.

tiny sliver of sports marketing merger. There is a division in the

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Australians won team that needs to be reconciled. We need to look at

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what sport needs. That has been lost. I am interested to take it in

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that direction. It seems to have always had a fascinating

:21:16.:21:19.

relationship with the Israeli in public. You talk about why you swim.

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You say it makes you feel as perfect as you can be. It is about

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getting the most out of yourself. He never seemed like an athlete

:21:29.:21:35.

Russian to cover themselves in the national flag. Doing it in a sort

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of patriotic pride. Do you feel you have had an awkward relationship

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with the Australian public? They are used to sports people with a

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lot of testosterone and aggressiveness. You have never been

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quite like that. I have never been. But for the most part it has been a

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point of difference. We are seeing a time of athletes that are not

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that kind of stereotypical Australian athlete we have seen in

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the past. The only thing I do not like at the moment his

:22:10.:22:15.

personalities in sport. Some athletes are not able to speak on

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how they feel about their sport. It does not match that stereotype.

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have made it plain you find the treatment of the aboriginal peoples

:22:24.:22:34.
:22:34.:22:36.

of Australia outrageous. It is a scar. It amounts to the same thing.

:22:36.:22:40.

When you look at things like that and the attitudes Australians have,

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do you still have that sense of isolation that you had as a child

:22:46.:22:52.

when you could not really explain it? The Australians that icy an

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around actually believe we can fix things like this. The most pressing

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issue that Australians have as we are tremendously successful around

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the world is looking at the way that we treat those who are in the

:23:09.:23:13.

greatest need. In Australia that happens to be the indigenous

:23:13.:23:18.

population. They are overlooked and grossly neglected by government and

:23:18.:23:24.

people's attitudes towards them. It needs to change. It is a scar that

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we really need to heal for Australia to achieve greatness.

:23:28.:23:33.

other issue, different, but I wonder what do you felt a degree of

:23:33.:23:39.

empathy with it, when Julia Gillard lost to Canberra in Parliament and

:23:39.:23:44.

directed a huge amount of anger at Tony Abbott. She said to him, if

:23:44.:23:49.

you want to know what misogyny looks like, just look in a mirror.

:23:49.:23:54.

Did you have a lot of sympathy with the Prime Minister? I do not think

:23:54.:23:57.

she lost her temper. I think she deliberately chose the words and

:23:57.:24:01.

the time that she wanted to get across a message that she was not

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going to weight. If the Opposition leader wanted a battle... Do you

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