Radoslaw Sikorski - Foreign Minister of Poland HARDtalk

France and Italy. Now on BBC News, it is time for

HARDtalk. The European Union's formative

years were shaped by a Franco- German motor. Could it be that when

the EU Imogen's from his prolonged debt crisis, a German-Polish

partnership may play a dominant role? Poland's economy is growing,

as its its diplomatic ambitions, so it is sniffy CAD that the Polish

Foreign Minister has backed in Germany's vision. -- it is

significant. But do polls really want to cede their hard-won

sovereignty to Brussels and Berlin? Welcome to HARDtalk. In the post-

communist years, it is fair to say that Poland's number one foreign

policy priority was the alliance with the US. You seem intent on

changing that. The US is still important in the area of security,

our most important ally. But the European Union is a much more

intimate relationship because it encompasses all areas, or areas of

public activity. You described Germany as Poland's friend and ally

above all. Britain is also very important to us. But Britain is not

a neighbour. It was very nice of you in your introduction to say

that Poland has an ambitious foreign policy, and it is true that

we have a history, we were Communist for 400 years, with other

countries, we had a history of successful feudalism, and with

other countries, we think we have ideas to contribute to the future

of Europe. You are by far the biggest of the relatively new

member states in the EU. When you said, one year ago, in Berlin, when

you said quiet, I fear German power less than I feared German

inactivity, that made enormous waves right around the Continent.

You appear to be giving the signal that you wanted Germany to seize

the reins, to guide and direct the future of Europe. We wanted Germany

to take action on saving the eurozone, to lead on reforms. Since

then, there have been several packages to help Greece, while at

the same time, encouraging Greece to carry out reforms, and we may

now be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. The survival of the

eurozone is in the vital interests of even non members. To put it

crudely, you wanted Germany to get its wallet out, that he understood

that in getting its wallet out, in underpinning the European economy

and going down the track of their sharing, which in the long run

Germany will have you do, you recognise that Germany will want to

see the deepening of Europe's institutions, the integration of

the EU in a way that has not been seen before. Germany carried out

economic reforms which may Germany competitive, inside the eurozone,

we can have a successful economy and an unsuccessful economy.

Germany is an economically the most powerful. But the European Union is

a system in which she cannot dominate. If you compare it to a

company, Germany is the largest shareholder, with 13% up. You have

9%, we have 7%, on any important issue, you need a coalition of

shareholders to get anything done. But the biggest beneficiary and the

biggest shareholder, Germany, has the biggest responsibility.

talking about Germany be way you have, the indispensable power, you

have upset a number of people in Poland. The leader of the

Conservative Party that you work proposing a subjugated role that

threatened Polish independence. He said you were opening the way for a

forthright. We have Euro-sceptics and Poland as well. They are

sometimes quite emotional. But I see a resounding office in

Parliament with a constitutional majority. There is a lot of hostile

rhetoric about Europe. Both in Poland and in Britain. It does not

help to build good solutions. We have a crisis and we need

institutional arrangements that will work, and that kind of

rhetoric is not helpful. But what we have is a nation that has

escaped the yoke of Soviet communism, which appeared to be

fiercely proud of its independence within the European Union, and like

Britain, was very and fantasist in his view of how Europe should work,

and yet you have thrown all of that over for an alliance with Germany,

which appears to be all about creating, more Europe, a feudal

Europe. Is that what you really want? You cannot compare the

European Union would our subjugation under the Soviet system.

But many Poles think the greatest achievement of throwing off the

Soviet Communist rule was achieving genuine independence, and sovereign

independence. We still had it. In the European Union, we can

voluntarily applied to the EU and be admitted, we applied, we were

rejected first, and then we were admitted after a referendum. We

hold some aspects of state security for the greatest benefit for all

members. Both Britain and Poland ceded the sovereign power to

negotiate treaties with the European Commission. We are much

richer for it, because Europe as a whole can negotiate with the United

States, with China... as an equal. Neither Britain nor Poland could do

that a loan. That is an achievement that stands. The point is that you,

alongside your new best friend, the German Foreign Minister, want to go

much further. He issued a joint declaration calling for a directly

elected European President, an end to national veto power, in a whole

host of important areas, you want to see fiscal as well as monetary

union, you want to see a European Monetary Fund, and you want to see

an evolution towards a European military capability. In all of

these areas, it is not a question of pulling the sovereign tree in

trade and economic areas, you want to go much further. In the words of

the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, we want to be a superpower.

In the end, the European Union is not just about trade, it is about

politics, maintaining the influence of us, the West, in a world in

which is becoming a smaller proportion, -- in which we are

becoming. We can still be very rich, but unless we stick together, we

cannot maintain the implements that our wealth and our population

entitles us to. Without wishing to sound rude, I am tempted to ask

where you have been the last few years. Have you been watching

Polish public opinion, which at the moment seems deeply sceptical, it

seems deeply sceptical about joining the euro. We had just won a

general election, and the euro has already been discussed in Poland.

It was part of our treaty to the EU, and we had a referendum on it. We

are treaty applies to to join. What am remains is the time and rate of

exchange. To the end of this Polish parliament, we will fulfil did --

fulfil the criteria, and in the next Parliament, provided the

eurozone sort itself out, we will be ready to join. Your own

government is saying that you will meet the conditions for entry by 20

beat Dean, so are you saying there is some doubt that you will fulfil

your obligation? -- by 2015. It has to be a meeting of minds and

circumstances. While the eurozone is in turmoil, it is not a good

time to join. But you want to go much further. Serious mistakes were

made. The problem was that the treaty on growth and stability

relied on the goodwill of member states, and the treaty was breached

60 times. That is why I believed the problem in the eurozone is at

court a problem with governance. That is why we need to go further

with integration, so that crisis like that are prevented. We hope

that Britain will help us, with his genius for building institutions,

will help us to create solid European institutions. This is

where I find a very confusing message, on the one hand you are

saying that you see Europe's future in much more profound integration,

even a United States of Europe are your long-term vision, and at the

same time, you back away from Poland's specific commitment to

join the euro. You suggest that the EU has made fundamental mistakes.

We have not fulfilled the criteria yet. As soon as we have, we will

make a judgement as to whether the eurozone is ready to have asked.

Poland's position is different from Britain's. We had a delegation, in

time, we have an opt-out. We will ratified the fiscal treaty and we

will have the right to be included in those discussions which concern

the future of the eurozone, because we will one day be part of it.

There is also a discussion about a banking union. Should I take that

you are an enthusiastic supporter of a banking union? Under the right

conditions. We have very effective banks to position -- very effective

bank supervision. As you say yourself, our economy has

cumulatively grown by 18% in the last four years, average for

Britain, but for the EU as a whole, is 0%. That may be why your finance

minister, he said, we are not interested in joining a banking

union. He said we were not happy with the initial proposals. As our

banking supervision is very sound, over 60% of bank assets are foreign

owned. We have to make sure that the subsidiaries are treated fairly

and that we also have some authority over it. I understand

that from what we have discussed, your ambition is profound when it

comes to the picture of the EU. How are you going to get around the

fact that for the fundamental changes that you want to see happen,

the states that are more sceptical, I am thinking about the UK, there

are objections will have to be overcome. At the moment, profound

treaty change requires unanimity. They are discussing a new budget

and it cannot happen without the acquiescence of all nations,

including the UK. They insist on a freeze in the EU budget. Do you

think it is acceptable for one nation to dictate that? Let's take

it apart. We would like to have Britain on board because Britain is

an important country, an important garden -- guard of the liberal

rules within the Common Market. But I would like you to get one thing

absolutely straight, we agree with the ambition to have a freeze in

real terms, if this is what the British Government want to achieve,

it is achievable. This Budget ends in 2013. If you take the 2013

Budget proposal as the base, add the inflation, that is exactly the

commission's proposal. What the British position is different.

Britain wants to take as the base, the multi- annual budget, a single

annual budget, and an artificially low one in 2011 and lock it in.

That amounts to a very drastic cut. It is of 200 billion. This is why

Far won't get too technical about the Budget that I've raised that

because it's the most pressing case of how the EU makes decisions. The

way currently makes decisions, the UK has the right to veto the future

budget. It's a multi- Annual budget. They end under the treaty, we will

have an annual budget and that will be converted by a qualified vote

and what will happen is very technical. This is important. The

National rebate is undermined. Holland is the fourth largest

contributor to that British rebate. The Polish. The actual budget will

be bigger than the Commission proposal. It's the last Budget plus

the inflation. He fewer are indeed with the Germans moving the

European Union forward in that profound way you will have to

overcome the logjam decision making process. I was struck by something

you said in Oxford recently. He said, a direct message to the UK,

please don't expect us to help you wreck all paralysed the EU. Does

that mean you foresee a future where frankly, if the British

continue to use locking procedures and to veto that, they will have to

leave the European Union? British people and the British

Government are the best judges of your national interests. We would

be sorry to lose you we have been friends and allies the years. We

would like to have you contributing. I think it's important to explain

to the British people, firstly the economic advantages of the EU and

the political ones for example. We're just imposed tougher

sanctions on Iran which are having an effect. Britain alone could not

do that. The EU is a force multiplier for everyone. We can do

things we cannot do on our own. Foreign Savell, the US a tells

Britain that you are more valuable as an ally and a member of the EU

because you can affect decisions made in that here you because in

the end it's about the distribution of power and influence. You know

Britain very well, you were educated at Oxford. You have many

friends in senior political circles. You acknowledge that the European

Union you want to create, we did speak about at in detail, the

fiscal union, foreign policy, political power, the European army,

this vision you have, cannot happen with Britain on board given that

Britain's current political temperament is that agreed? Tony

Blair thought that creating a European superpower was a good goal.

David Cameron has said creating Britain as a kind of offshore

Switzerland would be contrary to the British national interest. What

I like to see. The thing you can change the mind the British public?

You will and the Germans, do you think you can make these arguments

loudly enough you can turn what is roughly two-thirds of the British

population at believes leaving the union most maybe the most sensible

thing? It would be much better if British politicians made a

patriotic argument about be usefulness of the EU to Britain. We

believe and I believe that your interests and trade partners and

political interests lie within Europe and we can achieve much more

together. Let's talk about one aspect of the Polish strategic

position which I hinted at, the Changing nation of the new

relationship with the United States. To focus more attention on the

future of Europe, the EU think you've been deeply disappointed by

the relationship with the United States and Barack Obama has gone?

Actually, since last week, for the first time, we have a permanent

present of US troops in Polish ground and we have aspired to that.

Barack Obama or authorised contingency plans for the defence

of central Europe and NATO. In a sense, you are correct, it's not

there is less of the United States in Poland but there's more of the

European Union. That here you, particularly on continent, is a

very intimate relationship and thrust the fact that the Polish-

German border and was fourth over for years, now we barely notice it

as you drive across without any passport. That's a revolutionary

change. We don't want to return to the politics of the 20th century

because we have suffered more. Specific week, about President

Obama, it's fair to say that you felt betrayed when he made a U-turn

and broke the portion bit astray she commitment to key elements of

the missile defence system. signed an annex to that agreement.

The new Configuration of that system which is due to be built

starting in 2015 and completed by 2018 is a much better system for

the defence of Europe. The Bush proposal was a preferred site of

the American system. This poll and want its own system? The every

country has some component and we will build one of the components

that can be linked to the joint NATO system. This is what Robert

Gates wrote. This has what he said when he left his post as the

Defence Secretary, he said NATO has been a pillar of the Polish

security strategy for a long time and the blunt reality is this a

dwindling appetite of the US to expand and spend funds on behalf of

nations such as European NATO members that are at unwilling to

devote the necessary resources to be serious partners in their own

defence? I'm afraid that that's a call to maintain the defence

expenditure. Britain and the Polish people are amongst the leaders.

This NATO in crisis? Is it the relevant? As a former Defence

Minister I know how long it takes to build up the capabilities. To

procure major defence systems and that takes about a decade so I will

join the call to all of the NATO allies to maintain their spending

at about 2% of the GDP. Does NATO feel irrelevant? We had just

carried out an operation in Libya and we have had growing trouble in

Afghanistan and hopefully we will leave the Afghan government in

charge. Major has evolved. The Soviet opinion is no longer with us.

I love those words. There is no it existential challenge. The Soviet

Union is no longer with us but Vladimir Putin is very much with

you and you personally seen to be involved in an effort to warm the

relationships between the Polish people and the Russians. Is that a

good policy given the way we see him running Russia? As we saying

Holland, you cannot choose your neighbours. We have reconciled with

Germany and we are working towards reconciliation with Russia. There's

been good declarations on the part of the church leaders about the

crimes of the past. We have a working relationship. He also seems

you've won a reduction in the Russian gas price? That is

important that God gave the Russians oil and gas. The way he

runs his own country and interferes with others. We have a commercial

relationship. We export a lot to Russia and we have to negotiation