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George Entwistle. He will take up the post in March. That is it from | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
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Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from Jerusalem. My guest | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
today is Israel's President, Simon Peres. The last week has been | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
dominated by a renewed confrontation between Israel and | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
Hamas in Gaza. Sustains exchanges of fire have caused hundreds of | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
casualties, most of them Palestinian. But the basic dynamic | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
of the conflict appears unchanged. In a region that has been | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
destabilised by the Arab uprisings, are Israel's leaders making wise | :00:47. | :00:57. | |
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President Simon Peres, and welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What do you | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
believe Israel has achieved with this sustained bombardment of the | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
Gaza Strip? It was not a choice. Israel has had to respond to | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
provocation. Because of the fact day-in and day-out they fired | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
missiles against civilian life, schools, other things without a | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
trace. I hear, who is winning the war? I think the real problem is | :01:43. | :01:51. | |
who is winning the peace, not the war. Gaza is a test. In Gaza we did | :01:51. | :02:01. | |
it unilaterally, we left Gaza in 2005. We took out our army. We took | :02:01. | :02:11. | |
:02:11. | :02:11. | ||
out our settlements, 20 settlements, and close to 9000 settlers. We | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
forced them to go out of Gaza and we had to mobilise and 70,000 | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
policemen. They left Gaza, they took out the settlements and the | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
settlers. You pulled out of Gaza and then you put military force | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
around Gaza. Ewan short the Gazan economy could not succeed by | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
blocking all export and many imports. It has more poverty than | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
ten years ago. The cars and people are living in what they described | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
as a present -- Gazan. That is the reason more than any other why | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
Hamas has such deep roots in Gaza. -- a prison. I'm not so sure. They | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
are using force to have deep roots. We have spent millions of dollars | :03:05. | :03:15. | |
:03:15. | :03:17. | ||
after we left to build a modern economy, to export strawberries for | :03:17. | :03:24. | |
example. We gave them everything. understand that that is the Israeli | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
position. But it seems to me the question that you have to face | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
today as a nation is this, you can eliminate Hamas' rocket launchers, | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
you can even assassinate a Hamas' military chiefs, but you cannot | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
eliminate Hamas itself from Gaza. So what is the strategic objective | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
here? We don't want to eliminate Hamas. We want to eliminate the | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
actions and the position of Hamas, the fact they don't want to make. | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
We are not against the people of Hamas -- make peace. Do you think | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
by killing more than 100 people so far, including significant numbers | :04:07. | :04:15. | |
of children and women, do you think that you are encouraging Hamas, and | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
the people who support Hamas, to change their strategy? It does not | :04:22. | :04:30. | |
happen unless they fire at us. Let's be fair... Hamas is firing | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
missiles, close to several hundred per day, more or less. But what is | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
terrible and what people don't understand is that every morning at | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
7am/8:00am, when children go to school, every morning they fire 35 | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
missiles against children. We are better organised, we admit. Then | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
the children go back at 3pm/4pm, another 35 missiles! What are they | :04:59. | :05:07. | |
doing? The only thing that they are trying to censor is the bringing in | :05:07. | :05:15. | |
of arms for long-range missiles. -- we are trying to. Why spend so much | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
money on 10,000 missiles? On building them? As we speak right | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
now it is uncertain whether a truce, a ceasefire, of some description | :05:26. | :05:35. | |
can be implemented. But here's the question. If there is a pause or a | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
truce, it is unlikely, is it not, that anything will have changed in | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
the long term. You may say that you have some promises from Hamas, some | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
guarantees. They may say that they too have won some victories over | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
you. What will change in the dynamic of this relationship? | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
through talking. We have said publicly, if Hamas is ready to talk, | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
to negotiate, why not? Your message doesn't tally with the message of | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
some members of the current Netanyahu government. I wonder what | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
you think when you hear for example Interior Minister any shy earlier | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
in this crisis according to a reputable newspaper here, they | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
reported he said Israel should send - es. - | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
- Eli Yishai. What do you think of that mind said? I don't know if he | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
said it but it is his view. We are like a democracy from Great Britain. | :06:45. | :06:55. | |
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-- mindset. I am talking about the in the government. He is the senior | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
minister of the interior, he does not run the foreign policy. The | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
official position of the Israeli government is for a two state | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
solution. That is what everybody is saying. That is what we are saying. | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
Who is stopping it? If the Gazans agreed to a two state solution and | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
stop firing, we can have that. If they want to destroy Israel there's | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
no reason we should participate in committing suicide. The point is | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
surely that you have to begin a dialogue with your enemies before | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
your enemies have laid down their weapons. Israel reached out to fat | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
are and the PLO when you were still at war with them. The question now | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
is why not change the strategic dynamic here by establishing a | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
negotiation, a dialogue, a contact with Hamas? They don't want one. | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
I may say so, the individual who was assassinated, Ahmed Al Jabari, | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
was in an indirect negotiation with a peace activist in this country, | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
Gershon Baskin, Gershon Baskin says from Jabari was that he wanted to | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
talk about. A few days later his Royal killed him. Gershon Baskin | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
was given the chance to talk. -- Israel killed him. Israel stopped | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
Jabari, they killed him. In the morning they are was an order to | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
shoot at the bus of Israeli children. Why? Who gave the order? | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
We have to be realistic? Why are they shooting at schools, at | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
kindergartens? Somebody is responsible. You can't say that his | :08:51. | :08:59. | |
dialogue. -- is dialogue. It's not done and it cannot be accepted. | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
Let's talk about the diplomatic context in which this crisis is | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
unfolding. Something fundamental has shifted since Operation cast | :09:07. | :09:14. | |
led, the last time Israel tried to dismantle the Hamas military threat. | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
What has changed is the Arab Spring. We have seen in Egypt for example | :09:20. | :09:28. | |
the rise of a new government led by a Muslim Brotherhood. I just wonder | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
if you believe that this presents a whole new set of problems for | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
Israel in terms of the diplomacy around the confrontation? A set of | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
problems and a set of Hope's. It is not just one way traffic. -- hopes. | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
I must say I'm pleasantly surprised by the responsibility taken on by | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
the President of Egypt, the member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
way he is playing it right now. I have respect for it. I want to make | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
it clear, the conditions put against us, otherwise people will | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
question it, there's a quartet made of four members, the Americans, the | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
Russians, us and the Egyptians. They put the conditions before | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
Hamas, not us. They say if you do three things Israel will begin | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
immediately negotiating. Stop shooting, recognise Israel, start | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
talking. Let Hamas do it. And there won't be any problems. These other | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
condition of the most objective all-embracing diplomatic Group. | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
question is getting to the heart of trust between you and Egypt. As | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
part of a deal to the escalate the Gaza crisis, you need the Egyptians | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
to guarantee the arms flow into Gaza will be stopped, that Sinai a | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
will be safe from any sort of G Hardy Militant threat. You need to | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
believe that Cairo can deliver on promises it makes. -- jihadi. I'm | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
asking you whether the Israeli public really believes that? | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
assure you that the Israeli public wants peace. It does not get any | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
pleasure for them to see any suffering in Gaza. Not just Egypt, | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
look at the whole change in the region. Look at the fact that your | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
erstwhile ally, Turkey, for five years now has been extraordinarily | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
critical of Israel and Prime Minister Erdogan basically talks | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
about his role as a terrorist nation. You have problems in your | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
partnership with Jordan. -- about Israel. The monarchy is looking | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
more unsteady there. You don't know what is going to happen in Syria. | :11:57. | :12:04. | |
So what? That is the question. answer is that the Arab nations are | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
in a transitional period. Things are unsettled. The wake up in the | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
Arab world has nothing to do with Israel. What's happening in Syria | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
has nothing to do with Israel. What happened in Tunisia has nothing to | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
do with Israel. What happened in Egypt has nothing to do with Israel. | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
They are trying to find their own way. We are not their enemies. We | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
do not hate them, we don't attack them, we don't demand anything from | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
them. We gave back the land to Egypt. We gave back the land to | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
Gaza. What do they want us to do? There's a young generation, please | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
don't forget it, in the Arab world, which is sick and tired of the | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
poverty, of the oppression, of the lack of food and hope. They are | :12:57. | :13:07. | |
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trying to change it. It's a new I want to focus on what Israel can- | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
do. And when you talk about people being sick and tired, what it seems | :13:18. | :13:27. | |
to me is that, Palestinians are sick and tired on Israel insisting | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
on the development of more and more Jewish settlements on occupied land. | :13:31. | :13:41. | |
:13:41. | :13:43. | ||
They are now beyond 600,000. It is getting larger. When that happens, | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
Palestinians do not believe in talk of now to state solution. -- of a | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
two-stage solution. Hamas is telling them to forget about the | :13:54. | :14:04. | |
:14:04. | :14:06. | ||
solution. We took up the settlers and the settlements. Usually need | :14:06. | :14:14. | |
to think about the expense of Jewish settlements. It is a | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
fundamental obstacle to peace. started with a Gaza. Look what | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
:14:29. | :14:30. | ||
happened. They are preventing the implementation of peace, not us. It | :14:30. | :14:40. | |
:14:40. | :14:41. | ||
was one of their most known decisions. We have talked a lot | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
about Gaza. Let us talk about the West Bank. The government has, in | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
its actions, particularly on settlement policy, effectively | :14:54. | :15:04. | |
:15:04. | :15:10. | ||
undermined their credibility. previously negotiated settlement. | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
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But we stopped and negotiation. That was a mistake. We could start | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
the negotiations without prior conditions. I advised that we have | :15:30. | :15:40. | |
:15:40. | :15:44. | ||
to negotiate. In the West Bank we have 350,000 settlers. A including | :15:44. | :15:52. | |
East Jerusalem have over 600,000. That is different. East Jerusalem | :15:52. | :16:01. | |
is a different problem. Going to the West Bank. 350,000 set close a | :16:01. | :16:11. | |
:16:11. | :16:17. | ||
settled. -- sat close. Some people say that it is 5%. We said that we | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
should put them somewhere else. They agree. But the other extreme | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
right partners in the coalition are not saying that at all. The truth | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
is surely in the words of a respected Israeli commentator. He | :16:35. | :16:41. | |
said this very recently, it has settlement project is actually | :16:41. | :16:51. | |
:16:51. | :16:52. | ||
achieving its goal. The situation on the ground is irreversible. The | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
solution of solving the problems between the Israelis and | :16:57. | :17:06. | |
Palestinians is no longer available. What I am saying is that after | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
talking to the Prime Minister and working over the details, we are | :17:14. | :17:23. | |
:17:24. | :17:25. | ||
taking away 5%. You want continuity, we will provide you with continuity. | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
We do not get rich from it. I do not want to sound rude, you sound | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
as though you live in a different country from the Prime Minister | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
when you talk about negotiations. The message from the Israeli | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
government right now, and you are largely a figurehead president, the | :17:44. | :17:54. | |
:17:54. | :17:57. | ||
message from the government is that if Mahmoud Abbas goes ahead with | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
the Observer state status, the Israeli government will look at | :17:59. | :18:08. | |
ways of toppling it. I am not a figurehead. Do not forget it. I | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
went to talk to mum would a bus with the knowledge and empowerment | :18:14. | :18:24. | |
:18:24. | :18:26. | ||
of the prime minister. -- Mahmoud Abbas. The Prime Minister said so. | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
Not the defence minister. We are co-operating with him. We would | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
like to see the West Bank flourishing. This is the policy in | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
effect, not my dream. One more issue I would like to raise with | :18:45. | :18:55. | |
:18:55. | :18:56. | ||
you before we go. That is the issue of Orion. -- Iran. You have | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
criticised the Prime Minister's insistence that Israel must retain | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
the right to take unilateral military action against Iran if | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
Israel believes that Iranian nuclear ambitions threaten the | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
Israeli state. You stated that unilateral action would be a | :19:16. | :19:23. | |
mistake. Is that still your position? My position is that | :19:23. | :19:32. | |
position. Try and prevent the building of a nuclear arsenal. | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
First of all, by economic sanctions and political pressures. Telling | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
the Iranians that other options are on the table. If you do not tell | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
them, they will not listen to you. The one who has to conduct it is | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
the President of the United States. The United States has a power over | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
Israel's military actions in regards to Iran? We do not mind | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
that the United States will do what. We cannot build a coalition. We | :20:09. | :20:16. | |
cannot do which alone. We have worked together. We're all of the | :20:16. | :20:26. | |
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same opinion. Let them do what. I trust President Obama. I think he | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
is fair-minded. I trust his words. I believe this is an American | :20:35. | :20:43. | |
policy that cannot fail. I am shocked when I saw the papers about | :20:43. | :20:53. | |
:20:53. | :20:54. | ||
the nuclear tests. I used ten to have respect for Fidel Castro. Now | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
I cannot look at him. He wanted to bomb the West. We had a situation | :21:01. | :21:11. | |
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here. I trust the Americans. It is an American and British interest. | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
The West cannot afford it. fundamental difference between US | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
President of the state and the Prime Minister, who does not, in | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
the end, believe that Israel should invest will of its trust in the | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
United States to tackle the Iran problem. It seems to me from his | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
public statements and joyous that there is a definite gap. When I was | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
very young, I was taught to judge people on their records. Do not | :21:47. | :21:57. | |
judge them on their speeches. Israel did not go at it alone. | :21:57. | :22:06. | |
Israel accepted the American position. Syria now has a | :22:06. | :22:16. | |
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collection of chemical weapons. Who knows what Bashar al-Assad will do? | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
We should not go at it alone in my cards to terrible weapons in the | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
hands of irresponsible people. final question. You're approaching | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
the end of your term as president. Do you believe there will be | :22:32. | :22:42. | |
military action begins to run Mac before you leave? -- Iran? I | :22:42. | :22:52. | |
believe the United States and Russians will deal with it. I am | :22:52. | :22:58. |