Shimon Peres - President of Israel HARDtalk


Shimon Peres -  President of Israel

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George Entwistle. He will take up the post in March. That is it from

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Welcome to a special edition of HARDtalk from Jerusalem. My guest

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today is Israel's President, Simon Peres. The last week has been

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dominated by a renewed confrontation between Israel and

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Hamas in Gaza. Sustains exchanges of fire have caused hundreds of

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casualties, most of them Palestinian. But the basic dynamic

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of the conflict appears unchanged. In a region that has been

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destabilised by the Arab uprisings, are Israel's leaders making wise

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President Simon Peres, and welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. What do you

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believe Israel has achieved with this sustained bombardment of the

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Gaza Strip? It was not a choice. Israel has had to respond to

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provocation. Because of the fact day-in and day-out they fired

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missiles against civilian life, schools, other things without a

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trace. I hear, who is winning the war? I think the real problem is

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who is winning the peace, not the war. Gaza is a test. In Gaza we did

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it unilaterally, we left Gaza in 2005. We took out our army. We took

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out our settlements, 20 settlements, and close to 9000 settlers. We

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forced them to go out of Gaza and we had to mobilise and 70,000

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policemen. They left Gaza, they took out the settlements and the

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settlers. You pulled out of Gaza and then you put military force

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around Gaza. Ewan short the Gazan economy could not succeed by

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blocking all export and many imports. It has more poverty than

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ten years ago. The cars and people are living in what they described

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as a present -- Gazan. That is the reason more than any other why

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Hamas has such deep roots in Gaza. -- a prison. I'm not so sure. They

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are using force to have deep roots. We have spent millions of dollars

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after we left to build a modern economy, to export strawberries for

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example. We gave them everything. understand that that is the Israeli

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position. But it seems to me the question that you have to face

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today as a nation is this, you can eliminate Hamas' rocket launchers,

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you can even assassinate a Hamas' military chiefs, but you cannot

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eliminate Hamas itself from Gaza. So what is the strategic objective

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here? We don't want to eliminate Hamas. We want to eliminate the

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actions and the position of Hamas, the fact they don't want to make.

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We are not against the people of Hamas -- make peace. Do you think

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by killing more than 100 people so far, including significant numbers

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of children and women, do you think that you are encouraging Hamas, and

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the people who support Hamas, to change their strategy? It does not

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happen unless they fire at us. Let's be fair... Hamas is firing

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missiles, close to several hundred per day, more or less. But what is

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terrible and what people don't understand is that every morning at

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7am/8:00am, when children go to school, every morning they fire 35

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missiles against children. We are better organised, we admit. Then

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the children go back at 3pm/4pm, another 35 missiles! What are they

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doing? The only thing that they are trying to censor is the bringing in

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of arms for long-range missiles. -- we are trying to. Why spend so much

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money on 10,000 missiles? On building them? As we speak right

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now it is uncertain whether a truce, a ceasefire, of some description

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can be implemented. But here's the question. If there is a pause or a

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truce, it is unlikely, is it not, that anything will have changed in

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the long term. You may say that you have some promises from Hamas, some

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guarantees. They may say that they too have won some victories over

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you. What will change in the dynamic of this relationship?

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through talking. We have said publicly, if Hamas is ready to talk,

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to negotiate, why not? Your message doesn't tally with the message of

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some members of the current Netanyahu government. I wonder what

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you think when you hear for example Interior Minister any shy earlier

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in this crisis according to a reputable newspaper here, they

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reported he said Israel should send - es. -

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- Eli Yishai. What do you think of that mind said? I don't know if he

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said it but it is his view. We are like a democracy from Great Britain.

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-- mindset. I am talking about the in the government. He is the senior

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minister of the interior, he does not run the foreign policy. The

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official position of the Israeli government is for a two state

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solution. That is what everybody is saying. That is what we are saying.

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Who is stopping it? If the Gazans agreed to a two state solution and

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stop firing, we can have that. If they want to destroy Israel there's

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no reason we should participate in committing suicide. The point is

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surely that you have to begin a dialogue with your enemies before

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your enemies have laid down their weapons. Israel reached out to fat

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are and the PLO when you were still at war with them. The question now

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is why not change the strategic dynamic here by establishing a

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negotiation, a dialogue, a contact with Hamas? They don't want one.

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I may say so, the individual who was assassinated, Ahmed Al Jabari,

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was in an indirect negotiation with a peace activist in this country,

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Gershon Baskin, Gershon Baskin says from Jabari was that he wanted to

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talk about. A few days later his Royal killed him. Gershon Baskin

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was given the chance to talk. -- Israel killed him. Israel stopped

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Jabari, they killed him. In the morning they are was an order to

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shoot at the bus of Israeli children. Why? Who gave the order?

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We have to be realistic? Why are they shooting at schools, at

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kindergartens? Somebody is responsible. You can't say that his

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dialogue. -- is dialogue. It's not done and it cannot be accepted.

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Let's talk about the diplomatic context in which this crisis is

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unfolding. Something fundamental has shifted since Operation cast

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led, the last time Israel tried to dismantle the Hamas military threat.

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What has changed is the Arab Spring. We have seen in Egypt for example

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the rise of a new government led by a Muslim Brotherhood. I just wonder

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if you believe that this presents a whole new set of problems for

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Israel in terms of the diplomacy around the confrontation? A set of

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problems and a set of Hope's. It is not just one way traffic. -- hopes.

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I must say I'm pleasantly surprised by the responsibility taken on by

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the President of Egypt, the member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the

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way he is playing it right now. I have respect for it. I want to make

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it clear, the conditions put against us, otherwise people will

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question it, there's a quartet made of four members, the Americans, the

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Russians, us and the Egyptians. They put the conditions before

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Hamas, not us. They say if you do three things Israel will begin

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immediately negotiating. Stop shooting, recognise Israel, start

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talking. Let Hamas do it. And there won't be any problems. These other

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condition of the most objective all-embracing diplomatic Group.

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question is getting to the heart of trust between you and Egypt. As

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part of a deal to the escalate the Gaza crisis, you need the Egyptians

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to guarantee the arms flow into Gaza will be stopped, that Sinai a

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will be safe from any sort of G Hardy Militant threat. You need to

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believe that Cairo can deliver on promises it makes. -- jihadi. I'm

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asking you whether the Israeli public really believes that?

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assure you that the Israeli public wants peace. It does not get any

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pleasure for them to see any suffering in Gaza. Not just Egypt,

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look at the whole change in the region. Look at the fact that your

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erstwhile ally, Turkey, for five years now has been extraordinarily

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critical of Israel and Prime Minister Erdogan basically talks

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about his role as a terrorist nation. You have problems in your

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partnership with Jordan. -- about Israel. The monarchy is looking

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more unsteady there. You don't know what is going to happen in Syria.

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So what? That is the question. answer is that the Arab nations are

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in a transitional period. Things are unsettled. The wake up in the

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Arab world has nothing to do with Israel. What's happening in Syria

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has nothing to do with Israel. What happened in Tunisia has nothing to

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do with Israel. What happened in Egypt has nothing to do with Israel.

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They are trying to find their own way. We are not their enemies. We

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do not hate them, we don't attack them, we don't demand anything from

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them. We gave back the land to Egypt. We gave back the land to

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Gaza. What do they want us to do? There's a young generation, please

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don't forget it, in the Arab world, which is sick and tired of the

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poverty, of the oppression, of the lack of food and hope. They are

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trying to change it. It's a new I want to focus on what Israel can-

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do. And when you talk about people being sick and tired, what it seems

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to me is that, Palestinians are sick and tired on Israel insisting

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on the development of more and more Jewish settlements on occupied land.

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They are now beyond 600,000. It is getting larger. When that happens,

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Palestinians do not believe in talk of now to state solution. -- of a

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two-stage solution. Hamas is telling them to forget about the

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solution. We took up the settlers and the settlements. Usually need

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to think about the expense of Jewish settlements. It is a

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fundamental obstacle to peace. started with a Gaza. Look what

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happened. They are preventing the implementation of peace, not us. It

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was one of their most known decisions. We have talked a lot

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about Gaza. Let us talk about the West Bank. The government has, in

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its actions, particularly on settlement policy, effectively

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undermined their credibility. previously negotiated settlement.

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But we stopped and negotiation. That was a mistake. We could start

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the negotiations without prior conditions. I advised that we have

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to negotiate. In the West Bank we have 350,000 settlers. A including

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East Jerusalem have over 600,000. That is different. East Jerusalem

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is a different problem. Going to the West Bank. 350,000 set close a

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settled. -- sat close. Some people say that it is 5%. We said that we

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should put them somewhere else. They agree. But the other extreme

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right partners in the coalition are not saying that at all. The truth

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is surely in the words of a respected Israeli commentator. He

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said this very recently, it has settlement project is actually

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achieving its goal. The situation on the ground is irreversible. The

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solution of solving the problems between the Israelis and

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Palestinians is no longer available. What I am saying is that after

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talking to the Prime Minister and working over the details, we are

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taking away 5%. You want continuity, we will provide you with continuity.

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We do not get rich from it. I do not want to sound rude, you sound

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as though you live in a different country from the Prime Minister

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when you talk about negotiations. The message from the Israeli

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government right now, and you are largely a figurehead president, the

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message from the government is that if Mahmoud Abbas goes ahead with

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the Observer state status, the Israeli government will look at

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ways of toppling it. I am not a figurehead. Do not forget it. I

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went to talk to mum would a bus with the knowledge and empowerment

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of the prime minister. -- Mahmoud Abbas. The Prime Minister said so.

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Not the defence minister. We are co-operating with him. We would

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like to see the West Bank flourishing. This is the policy in

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effect, not my dream. One more issue I would like to raise with

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you before we go. That is the issue of Orion. -- Iran. You have

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criticised the Prime Minister's insistence that Israel must retain

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the right to take unilateral military action against Iran if

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Israel believes that Iranian nuclear ambitions threaten the

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Israeli state. You stated that unilateral action would be a

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mistake. Is that still your position? My position is that

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position. Try and prevent the building of a nuclear arsenal.

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First of all, by economic sanctions and political pressures. Telling

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the Iranians that other options are on the table. If you do not tell

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them, they will not listen to you. The one who has to conduct it is

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the President of the United States. The United States has a power over

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Israel's military actions in regards to Iran? We do not mind

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that the United States will do what. We cannot build a coalition. We

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cannot do which alone. We have worked together. We're all of the

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same opinion. Let them do what. I trust President Obama. I think he

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is fair-minded. I trust his words. I believe this is an American

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policy that cannot fail. I am shocked when I saw the papers about

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the nuclear tests. I used ten to have respect for Fidel Castro. Now

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I cannot look at him. He wanted to bomb the West. We had a situation

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here. I trust the Americans. It is an American and British interest.

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The West cannot afford it. fundamental difference between US

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President of the state and the Prime Minister, who does not, in

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the end, believe that Israel should invest will of its trust in the

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United States to tackle the Iran problem. It seems to me from his

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public statements and joyous that there is a definite gap. When I was

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very young, I was taught to judge people on their records. Do not

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judge them on their speeches. Israel did not go at it alone.

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Israel accepted the American position. Syria now has a

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collection of chemical weapons. Who knows what Bashar al-Assad will do?

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We should not go at it alone in my cards to terrible weapons in the

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hands of irresponsible people. final question. You're approaching

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the end of your term as president. Do you believe there will be

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military action begins to run Mac before you leave? -- Iran? I

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believe the United States and Russians will deal with it. I am

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