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private jet from Monterrey to Toluca on Sunday after she had | :00:01. | :00:11. | |
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performed in a concert. It is time for HARDtalk. This week HARDtalk is | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
in Oslo for the annual Nobel Peace Prize award ceremony. In 2012 the | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
prize has been awarded to the European Union which has, according | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
to the panel, for over six decades contributed to the advancement of | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe. Jose | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
Manuel Barroso has been President of the European Commission since | :00:39. | :00:49. | |
:00:49. | :00:58. | ||
2004. Is Europe's economic crisis in danger of threatening its pace? | :00:58. | :01:08. | |
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Jose Manuel Barroso, welcome to HARDtalk. Were you surprised when | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
you heard the EU had won the prize? We were very proud and humbled by | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
the prize. To be honest I was not completely surprised the stock in | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
2009 there were rumours we could be awarded this prize. -- surprised. I | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
think it is a well deserved prize because of everything the EU has | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
achieved in 60 years. When you think where Europe was and where it | :01:44. | :01:53. | |
is now, it is a large contribution of the EU. You will know the | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
reaction in some parts of Europe, not least in Greece, the main | :01:58. | :02:06. | |
opposition party, Syriza, saying the decision cheaper and the Nobel | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
institution. They say they are experiencing a war situation on a | :02:09. | :02:18. | |
daily basis. I will respond against those who brought Greece to this | :02:18. | :02:25. | |
situation. The people who do not pay taxes. If it was not the EU, | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
Greece would already be in default. They would not be added to pay for | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
their public services. The EU is not the cause of the problems of | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
Greece. We are trying to be the solution. It is partly as a result | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
of their efforts to be involved with the euro that have caused | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
these problems. Angela Merkel says the euro is more than a currency, | :02:51. | :02:59. | |
it is the symbol of unification. 50 years of freedom and peace. Trying | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
to get that project going has caused their problems. I do not | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
agree. I do not think the euro was the problem. Since Lehman Brothers | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
collapsed other countries have had very difficult fiscal policies. | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
They had to use huge amounts of taxpayers' money to save their | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
banks. There are specific challenges for the EU area, but it | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
is not a euro crisis we are going through. Some countries like | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
Iceland, not even in the EU, they have these difficulties. Some | :03:39. | :03:46. | |
countries in the EU like Latvia, they have these tough adjustment | :03:46. | :03:54. | |
programmes. It is completely false politically and philosophically... | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
We have the German Chancellor saying, it maybe Europe's most | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
difficult hours since World War II. Of course. It is not because of the | :04:05. | :04:15. | |
:04:15. | :04:16. | ||
EU. It is a crisis in the eurozone. Yes, but not in the eurozone alone. | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
Britain is not in the eurozone. It is not a crisis of the eurozone. It | :04:22. | :04:31. | |
is a specific challenge for the eurozone. It is not a eurozone | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
crisis alone. That idea, that what the euro symbolises, the | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
unification of Europe, if Greece is forced out of the euro, would that | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
make you think you should hand the Nobel Peace Prize back? Not at all. | :04:49. | :04:57. | |
The Nobel Peace Prize is to honour the achievements of the EU. I am | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
completely sure it was extremely important the role of the EU | :05:02. | :05:10. | |
regarding peace. Not only... Parklea and encouragement to ensure | :05:10. | :05:20. | |
:05:20. | :05:21. | ||
the euro survives? -- partly. it is an encouragement. Is it an | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
encouragement to keep Greece in the euro? Even without the Nobel Peace | :05:26. | :05:36. | |
:05:36. | :05:37. | ||
Prize we are doing everything we can. Against many of the crisis, | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
Greece is still with us. I hope they will stay. Yet we have many | :05:44. | :05:54. | |
:05:54. | :05:56. | ||
people, not least the chief executive of Kim -- PIMCO saying | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
there is insufficient commitment to keep Greece in the eurozone. They | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
say it is hard to find many officials who believe the revamped | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
Greek programme will restore jobs as ability. Senior economists | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
presuming that Greece will a said. They are saying that but so far it | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
has that happened. -- exit. I do not think it is going to happen. | :06:28. | :06:36. | |
People underestimate the level of integration we have in the EU. I | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
think there is a real determination. If you ask me, would you like to | :06:43. | :06:53. | |
:06:53. | :06:54. | ||
have a stronger position in the EU? Yes. We are working on a three-year | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
crisis. The European Commission have been urging all the | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
governments of the EU, including the richest countries, to do their | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
part to support Greece as well. The EU is a union of democracies. | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
Sometimes decisions take a little longer. The EU Commission is | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
independent from our governments. There is consistent determination | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
to do everything to keep Greece on board. Your solution is greater | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
integration of the country's. only that. The first step of that | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
would be a banking union. The point of that is to allow the European | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
Stability Mechanism to pump money directly into Spain's banks for | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
example. The process of getting this union in place is taking time. | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
The most recent suggestion is that could not happen until 2014. Are | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
Spain's bangs going to be OK until then? I am sure we are going to | :08:05. | :08:15. | |
:08:15. | :08:18. | ||
solve the problem. The banks are already being recapitalised. They | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
will not need much more than 45 billion euros maximum. The first | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
operations have been authorised. About the banking union I want to | :08:29. | :08:36. | |
tell you, it is a very important point, it is important for the | :08:37. | :08:45. | |
credibility of what we are doing in the euro area. We propose a single | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
supervisory mechanism. It will not be in a position where it can bail- | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
out banks until 2014? I cannot predict the timing. It depends on | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
the decisions of the member states. It could not be any sooner. Iron | :09:02. | :09:12. | |
:09:12. | :09:12. | ||
Age in the governments to do it as soon as possible. -- I am urging. | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
When the mechanism is working and ready, it will be possible to make | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
the direct implementation through the supervisory mechanism. Does it | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
cover all banks? That is what France wants. Just the big ones | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
like Germany wants? It will cover all... The ECB cannot check on a | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
daily basis for the 6,000 banks of the euro area. When Germany's | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
finance minister says it will be very difficult to get approved by | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
the German parliament to have all German banks under Euro supervision, | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
no-one believes that will work. believe it will be adopted. It will | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
not be credible to have only the ECB making supervision of the big | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
banks. We have seen some of the systemic problems come from | :10:09. | :10:18. | |
relatively small banks. Look at Spain. It can have a systemic | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
impact. It needs to have the possibility to go, if needed, to | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
check the situation in any bank. There will be a division between | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
what the ECB can do at the central level with national supervisors. | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
The national supervisors will still be there. There is a problem with | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
it. It also applies to these other ways you intend to integrate the EU | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
countries. How do you reassure those who are outside it that they | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
are not losing out on the single market? That it is a level playing | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
field. That is a very important issue. We are a union of 27, very | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
soon 28. We have to make the union in a way that does not put in | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
question the integrity of the single market. It is possible to do | :11:22. | :11:32. | |
:11:32. | :11:36. | ||
given there is sufficient political will. In fact, to be honest, the | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
British Government has been extremely clear on this. They say | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
they support further integration of the euro area. Britain, knowing the | :11:45. | :11:53. | |
market's... This is not just Britain. A lot of countries outside | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
the euro who may sign up to the banking supervisor, but they are | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
concerned about voting rights. If they are not able to have as much | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
as a say as those in the euro under the Banking supervision, it is hard | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
to see how you can ensure she have a level playing field. There is a | :12:13. | :12:21. | |
compromise. It is being discussed among the countries. For Europe's | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
long-term credibility it is important we have financial | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
stability in the euro area. We have to have reinforced governance in | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
the euro area with more integration. I think it is possible. We are | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
going to do it. We are very close to a compromise on that. You have | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
set out your blueprint, it is remarkable in terms of what you | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
have put together sovereignty, 2014, sharing decisions on national | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
budgets. In the next ten-year having a European Treasury that | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
would control the central budget and have powers over national | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
budgets. That sounds like a European federal government. In a | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
way you have been clear that it is. The euro area needs that. That is | :13:12. | :13:21. | |
quite clear. This is a matter where all the economists agree. We need | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
smart integration. The credibility of the currency relies on the | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
solidity of the political construct behind it. This kind of further | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
integration is indispensable. can you have a single market that | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
has 27, nearly 28, a European federal government that applies to | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
a smaller group within that? First of all, the euro is the currency of | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
the EU. Two countries have exceptions. All the others in | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
principle should join the euro. Most of them are working hard to | :13:58. | :14:07. | |
reach that goal. In fact, if we have some specific arrangement with | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
the other countries, but the way, that is what Britain has been | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
asking for, some kind of guarantee. I believe it is perfectly possible | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
to keep the integrity of the single market and have a deeper | :14:23. | :14:31. | |
Does this combined Europe have a seat on the European Security | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
Council, or is it represented by Europe and France? Not only Britain | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
and France, they are permanent members, guess, but there are also | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
other countries on a rotating basis. The whole point about Europe is | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
that it is more powerful, this is your argument, should it have a | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
permanent seat? It's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
That is not my proposal for now. Not because Britain and France | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
would not give up their seats. thing is for sure, the European | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
Union.... Let's talk about one country who hears what you say, | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
this is the Czech Republic, it hears your ideas for pooling | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
sovereignty. Its president says, I firmly reject the idea presented by | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
you. He says the only thing he appreciates is that at last you are | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
being honest about the end goal. He says the opposite, he says, "We | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
should think about how to have our state could and sovereignty | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
restored". He is all very well known for his idiosyncratic views. | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
I respect him very much as the President of the Czech Republic. | :15:41. | :15:48. | |
But they are different positions. It is the original position, the | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
idea that climate change is the creation of the leftist Narine | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
Taliban. I very much respect him but I don't agree with him. Would | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
Europe be a happier place without the UK? My personal opinion, my | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
fundamental interest is to have written in the European Union. It | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
is bringing a lot to the European Union. Still? Still. There are some | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
debates going on. But if I look at the internal market, to a large | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
extent that there was a contribution from Britain, | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
including the... Now we are 27 countries. Britain was one of the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
strongest supporters. You have a country, Britain, that has used its | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
veto a year ago, that is wanting. This is at a time when you're | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
talking about being in crisis mode for three years. I wonder how much | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
you see it as a distraction that doesn't allow you to get on perhaps | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
with what must be to you more serious matters. I very much | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
respect the debate in Britain. I follow the debate. I know there's a | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
debate there about the competencies and so on. You asked my opinion, it | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
is that it is good for Europe to have Britain on board, provided of | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
course Britain is comfortable with the situation. No country is | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
obliged to be in the European Union, we are a free association of free | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
countries. Now it's up to Britain to decide if it wants to keep its | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
position or not in the European Union. The reason I'm asking is | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
that in a sense it's not up to Britain, if Britain wants to | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
renegotiate its supplement how far with the you go to accommodate it? | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
It's a matter for the member states. -- settlement -- the EU. Do you | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
accept a renegotiation make sense at the moment? Not at the moment, | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
the idea of the British government is to put it later. But if one | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
country wants to renegotiate it has the right to do so. Let's move on | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
to the Budget, there were lots of comments made by Britain's prime | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
minister, David Cameron, who has said that because the commission | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
did not offer a single euro in savings, not EUR1, he said it was | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
insulting to European taxpayers. Do you think the commission has got to | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
come up with a better deal for the Budget? The commission is not to | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
vote, we have put forward the proposal. Do you have to improve | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
that? It is not up to me, I keep my proposal, it is a good proposal. To | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
have they could budget we have to have an agreement. -- to have a | :18:25. | :18:31. | |
good budget. The reality is, most of the member states were ready for | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
a compromise, but there were some governments... White including | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
Britain? That were not... Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, Finland, | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
Denmark, all of those that were net contributors to the European Union. | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
Not all, of course there was disagreement between these | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
countries. That is why we don't have the budget yet. Nobody more | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
than the or the commission wants the Budget, according to the | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
treaties we are the ones implementing the Budget. We want an | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
agreement. There are different opinions between the member states. | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
I think it is sensible to understand that Europe needs | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
investment. As those economies you were quoting as saying, austerity | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
alone does not solve the problems. You we need apart from the | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
correction of public finances, apart from reforms, we need | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
investment. The European Union budget is basically a Budget for | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
investment. The commission has made it clear that any country, a | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
country like Scotland, that would choose to be independent, would | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
need to reapply for EU membership. When you think about how that would | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
work, would it just been nodded through? I did not comment on | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
specific situations because I respect it is their sovereign right | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
to decide about their organisation. Now what I said, and it is our | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
doctrine and this is clear since 2004 in legal terms, if one part of | :20:08. | :20:16. | |
a country, I'm not referring to any specific one, wants to become an | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
independent state, of course, as an independent state, it has to apply | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
to the European Union membership according to the rules. That | :20:23. | :20:30. | |
soggiest. It has to renegotiate terms? Yes. -- that's obvious. Is | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
it doing that from inside as a member of the EU, or is it | :20:35. | :20:44. | |
effectively reapplying from outside the EU question yellow. We are a | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
union of states, if there is a new one they have to reapply. And using | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
the example of Scotland, I appreciate you're not using | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
specifics, if they choose independence, it is then might a | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
new State applying to the you. a legal point of view it is | :21:00. | :21:07. | |
certainly a new state -- to the EU. Yes. It has to negotiate with the | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
European Union. What about the rest of the UK that is left behind by | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
Scotland's independence? That is a contingency of the deal. Will it | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
have to renegotiate its stance? In principle, no. Let's go back to the | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
peace prize in Europe, Standard and Poor's says Greece's Independent | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
meltdown is more Syria in duration and scale than the depression in | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
Germany that led to the rise of Hitler. -- severe. When you see the | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
rise of far right parties now in Europe, do you fear that something | :21:41. | :21:49. | |
like that could happen again? think we have to be vigilant. | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
Against the extreme nationalism and xenophobia and chauvinism. This is | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
what we are against. The European Union is a construction against | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
extreme nationalism, to show countries that we can live together | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
sharing sovereignty and working together for a common good, at the | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
same time respecting the identity of each country. The honest answer | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
to your question is yes on concerned, I don't like it some of | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
the movements, optimistic movements that we have seen here and there in | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Europe, even if it's quite clear that in member states the | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
mainstream parties are very committed to freedom, democracy and | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
European Values. Are they being fed, those extreme parties, by the | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
crisis? Yes. Precisely. It is a crash not just in Europe, it is a | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
more general problem with globalisation. People are afraid. | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
There's a kind of angst, a kind of fear about the future. We know well | :22:51. | :22:58. | |
that in this circumstances there are always people who try to make | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
simple answers to complex issues. The temptation of saying no to the | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
foreigner, saying no to Europe, is a very strong temptation. I wonder | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
how you reach out to people in Greece, who feel fury and rage at | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
other countries, that they see partly responsible for their | :23:18. | :23:25. | |
situation. But that's not true. It's not Germany, let's be honest, | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
that created difficulties in Greece. The excessive deficits and spending, | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
the tax evasion and tax fraud. it all their fault? It was mainly | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
the fault of irresponsible politicians in Greece, not of the | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
Greek people, they are making huge sacrifice is now. They suffered | :23:43. | :23:49. | |
from the euro and they Sea countries that benefited from the | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
euro, like Germany. If Greece was not in the euro it would already be | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
in default. The policy we have to be honest with... The situation is | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
very serious. I follow the Greek case on a daily basis over the last | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
few years, working with leaders to do my best to support them with all | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
the means available. We have to seek an alternative. What would be | :24:19. | :24:23. |