Browse content similar to Sir Nigel Sheinwald - UK Ambassador to the US, 2007 - 2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
That's it from me. Now it is time for HARDtalk Mac. | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
In or out? For the next five years, Britain's future in the European | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Union could be shrouded in uncertainty. This is thanks to | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
David Cameron's commitment to a referendum. He believes his | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
dramatic gamble will pay off, not just at home, but in Europe, | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
allowing him to be calibrate Britain's relationship with | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
Brussels. But will it work? Might yesterday, Nigel Sheriwald, was the | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
UK's top diplomat at EU, top foreign adviser to Tony Blair and | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
ambassador to Washington. Is the gambit in Britain's national | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
:00:58. | :01:20. | ||
Nigel Sheriwald, welcome to HARDtalk. In the recent past you | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
have been foreign policy adviser to the British Prime Minister. Not | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
David Cameron, Tony Blair. It had David Cameron had you next to him | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
as foreign policy adviser and he said to you, Nigel, I am going to | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
go for this in/out referendum, what would you have said to him? Of as a | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
professional adviser I would have said that I could see the | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
attractions in some way if Britain emerges from this more committed to | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
the European Union and with a more settled position within it. I would | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
have also said that it is a long way to go and a difficult road that | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
you have chosen. There are fundamental problems of negotiable | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Mitie and of uncertainty. That is associated with the move that he | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
made. A do you accept the contention that David Cameron makes, | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
the context he puts to this, that in his view the public disillusion | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
with the EU is at an all-time high and that consent for membership of | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
the European Union is, in his words, wafer-thin. He is certainly right. | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
Public disillusion with the European Union is higher than it | :02:33. | :02:40. | |
has been. But is it only about the European Union? Is it more to do | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
with the general state of politics and the economy? After all, the | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
measures announced here have nothing to do with the European | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
Union or Brussels. Measures that our government have enacted. So you | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
think the public have got it wrong? I am not implying they have got it | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
wrong. There is a tangle of issues. He to accept the contention that | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
disillusion with the EU in Britain is at an all-time high, is it not a | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
terrible indictment of policy makers, the people at the centre of | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the policy-making establishment who for years have conducted Britain's | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
foreign policy towards the EU without consulting the British | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
public? And I would include you and those who faces indictment. I do | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
not think that is fair. At every stage of our involvement in Europe, | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
our Parliament, how ministers have been involved. We had a referendum | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
in 1975. A referendum that nobody under the age of 50 something can | :03:43. | :03:49. | |
possibly remember. There are very few major public policy issues in | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
which we have a running referendum in this country. Whether it is | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
about economy, international relations, moral and social issues | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
of our time. That is not how we do it in this country. Those are | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
reserved for special moments were a fundamental change is being | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
considered. It gets down to this key question of Britain's | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
constitutional place in Europe. Let us not forget that your former boss, | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
the man you advised for years, Tony Blair, did say he was willing to | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
contemplate a referendum as Europe look to create a new constitution. | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
It became very complicated. We ended up with the Lisbon Treaty. | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
Britain and the British people never had that vote. A but the | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
argument for that, and we can go over the past history... Was it a | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
mistake? I would not have advised him to do what. That is not the | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
issue. He felt it was necessary. There was a constitutional leap | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
forward. That necessitated a further consultation of the British | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
people. The issue is whether that is going to be the case. If David | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
Cameron achieves his objectives, then in fact there would be a | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
transfer back to Britain of powers. It would not be an increase of | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
further European power against us. That was the rationale for doing it. | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
The problem is that when you and other people who are pro-European | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
and deeply committed to Britain's place in Europe, when you talk of | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
the dangers of a referendum and how unwise it might prove to be it, you | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
sound as though if you are running scared of this basic consultation | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
with the British voters will stop I have not said so far, but I am | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
against a referendum. You stressed to me how difficult and unwise it | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
might be. What I said is that depressed issue is about | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
negotiating what the UK gets to do. That is what needs to be considered | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
first of all. Whether David Cameron can achieve the goals he set out. | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
The significant new settlement of transfer of powers back to the UK, | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
a fundamental reform, of our role in Europe, whether that is | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
achievable. With your experience for Brussels politics, is it | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
achievable? He was very wise not to give us a warned realist. Of | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
everything he wanted. To reserve that for later when he knows the | :06:26. | :06:34. | |
context. It is going to be very difficult. Why? The rest of the | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
European Union has to play as well. When you're in a negotiation of 27, | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
everyone has got a gun in the room. We are not the only ones with | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
domestic politics. You have to respect the position of what | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
emerges that has to be in the general interest of the parties. | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
They have to assent to what we ones just as we have to listen to what | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
they want. How does the balance of power sit within that negotiation? | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
It seems to me that when you say how difficult it is going to be | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
that you are assuming the cards are held predominantly by the other | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
member states of the EU rather than Britain. It seems to me Britain | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
holds cards as well. We do. We start from the position that all | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
their partners, and that includes the most important, France, Germany | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
and the other nations, I start from the position that they want us to | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
stay in and will go somewhere to meet our concerns. A Angela Merkel | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
has already said. She is looking for a compromise. She is not in any | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
sense at all sounding negative about what David Cameron has said. | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
That is what I would expect. says there has to be a compromise. | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
That is what I would expect from the other parties. They will judge | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
this according to their national interest and the national economic | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
interest. That is bound up with the survival of the euro. They do not | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
want to do anything that undermines the recovery of the eurozone or | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
unravels the core of the single market that we are talking about. | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
David Cameron wants to strengthen the single market. That is what he | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
faces British membership in the European Union. The issue for | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
others is how you can do that and at the same time bringing back the | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
to the UK have powers that a number of the parties would say are | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
inextricably connected to the functioning. Opponents seem to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
believe it would be terribly difficult to negotiate powers back. | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
Let me quote you something that the Europe minister of Finland, who has | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
written a PhD on the variety of different relationships members | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
have with Brussels, this is what he said after David Cameron spoke. He | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
said that we need Britain in Europe. Cameron's move clarifies the debate. | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
He said that to be quite honest there is a lot of differentiation | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
inside the EU. Look at defence arrangements. We need to stick to | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
the bulk of EU integration, but we can take a few raisins out of the | :09:19. | :09:26. | |
ball. That is what he wants, isn't it? Is it? There is no doubt that | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
we have a certain accommodation from the parties. Absolutely right. | :09:30. | :09:38. | |
We were able to opt out from the economic and monetary union. We | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
have an opt-out on trading. We have an opt-out on justice. We can | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
decide what we want to do. Our partners have recognised that | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
Britain, because of its legal system, because of its history, is | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
a different position. We have a massive amount of flexibility. The | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
question is whether you can carry on chipping away at that forward to | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
your starting to reach the Daragh Byrne of what is at the core of the | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
single market. -- Daragh Byrne. It is reasonable to put forward | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
proposals and we can get something out of it. Surely it concentrates | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
the minds of all those in the run much more effectively to say that | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
if we do not get what we want, there is the option for Britain to | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
leave the union. No other serious leader of the European Union wants | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
to see that happen. I wonder about the psychology. For some that might | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
work in our favour. For others, if they see a part to the sleeving, | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
they will wonder what is the incentive for them to try and work | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
with us. Some of them will be irritated by having a gun pointed | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
at their heads. You very carefully avoided absolutely saying to me | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
that to believe it is at stake. Many have said that. They say there | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
is now going to be up to five years of massive uncertainty in the | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
relationship between Britain and Europe. The fact is that the | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
uncertainty is there any way because of all the factors we have | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
already discussed about the state of British public opinion. What | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
Hamann is promising to do is give a finite end to the uncertainty. -- | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
Cameron. The can put it that way. Five years is a long time. The | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
economy is going to be... It is probably better than open and it | :11:29. | :11:39. | |
:11:39. | :11:42. | ||
will stop. There could have been a different time. We could have | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
waited until after the election. We have extended the time. There is | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
nothing we can do about that now. But I do not think you can deny it | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
will create an uncertainty in relations with Investment to the UK | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
and about our position in Europe. That is why the rest of the world | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
is watching intently. They are not indifferent. Indeed. But the other | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
argument that you make, because you are now involved in a lobby group | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
that promotes business in Europe, the other argument is that | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
investors might be overcome by this uncertainty and Britain will lose | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
investment because of the political uncertainty. How do you explain | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
that 55 of the most senior businessmen in the UK have written | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
a letter to the newspapers saying that is categorically not true and | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
what Cameron has done all ended up being good for British business | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
because it focuses minds on making the EU more open, more competitive | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
and more business-friendly? Everyone agrees with that. All the | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
business organisations want to see less red tape and a greater focus | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
on the single market. That goes without saying. Hang on a minute. | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
You said in meetings for years in Brussels were you signed up to more | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
and more red tape. We did not. come we are members of the union | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
that we now say is dysfunctional and was people like to agree to the | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
measures that are currently in place? Elected governments like | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
ours agreeing to things which bring advantage to the UK. That you say | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
are dysfunctional. I do not think it is dysfunctional. It has got a | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
series of problems. It is not just David Cameron who wants a | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
referendum. Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg to not want it but they also | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
say the EU needs fundamental reform. It leaves the question in my mind | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
with diplomats like you signed up to all the arrangements that we now | :13:46. | :13:56. | |
:13:56. | :13:59. | ||
see in the first place. Governments Did you make some mistakes? I do | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
not know if I make mistakes or not. Do you think it is dysfunctional? | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
Not overall. I think it requires reform. Overall, it continues to | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
bring advantage to the UK. The EU we have created of the past 20 | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
years in relation to the euro has not worked out. But the UK has an | :14:21. | :14:29. | |
opt-out for that. The single market has advanced, we have achieved an | :14:29. | :14:37. | |
objective of widening the EU, these are huge advantages for Britain. | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
Not to be disregarded or regarded as trivial. My opinion does not | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
matter. The opinion of business people matters. One private equity | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
specialist says, from his analysis, far from creating jobs, the EU with | :14:52. | :15:02. | |
:15:02. | :15:13. | ||
all of its red Tate destroys jobs. There are a couple of models for | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
countries close with the EU but not inside it. Norway and Switzerland. | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
They do not have any say on the regulations they have to take in | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
order to be part of the single market. Is that what we want for | :15:27. | :15:37. | |
:15:37. | :15:40. | ||
the UK? I do not think we want that. Staying in is very important. That | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
is what the Prime Minister is after after all. Are you saying you can | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
imagine no circumstances in which you might conclude it would be | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
better for Britain to leave than stay in? I would see for myself, I | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
can see no circumstances in which it would be to our overall | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
advantage to be out. I can see that the path way the Prime Minister has | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
set out could later that. If that happens Britain's negotiators would | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
do their best. If we decide to stay out, the prospects are not terribly | :16:17. | :16:27. | |
:16:27. | :16:29. | ||
good. A final point on this debate. Some are opposed of the -- to the | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
idea of a referendum. You talk of Britain heading to the exit by | :16:33. | :16:42. | |
accident. Somehow accidentally voting for an exit. That sounds | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
like a very patronising opinion of the UK's ability to make sense of | :16:47. | :16:53. | |
his argument. That is not what I said. I said the debate should be a | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
full one. The more people know about the European Union the More | :16:58. | :17:07. | |
Group EU they will be. The last set of polls looking at the in- out | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
debate suggest that a majority may be there to stay in. That is what I | :17:12. | :17:20. | |
have been saying. Why be so cautious about the notion... Five | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
years of uncertainty. Five years of questioning where we will end up in | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
the end. There is a possibility we will not stay in. We will have to | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
see. It depends how the government of the day gets on in negotiations. | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
I do not think it will be a cakewalk. Just on the final detail | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
the point about that. Given your recent knowledge of European | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
diplomacy, who would be the main obstacle, the main blocking voices | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
to David Cameron getting what he wants? It seems to me the Germans, | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
Scandinavians, they are up for it. Who will be the biggest hurdle? | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
Quite a few of them would be concerned about anything that UN | :18:13. | :18:21. | |
picks the single market in any way. We want another great leap of | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
integration, we want to change the fundamental treaties of the EU, we | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
want major reform that provides the platform for the UK to put forward | :18:32. | :18:40. | |
a larger package. Say they do not do that. Say they make small | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
measures without changing the fundamentals of the eve. In that | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
circumstance we will look rather high and dry with a big package of | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
our own. It depends on the context in Europe. I want to change the | :18:55. | :19:03. | |
context a little bit and talk about the United States. We surprised | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
that Philip Gordon came to London and made it very plain that the US | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
regarded it as an important national interest to the US that | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
Britain remained inside the EU? That referendums have often turned | :19:20. | :19:30. | |
:19:30. | :19:31. | ||
countries inward. I was not surprised he said US interests that | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
Britain should be an active and influential member of the year. | :19:36. | :19:45. | |
That has been the position of America for a long time. -- the EU. | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
What were you surprised about? reason he made that intervention | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
now is because the US was worried about the trend of debate here. | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
About that extreme set of circumstances I was talking about | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
before which we might find ourselves out despite the best | :20:01. | :20:08. | |
wishes of the Prime Minister and others in his party. Do you think | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
it is helpful that that sort of signal is sent so publicly? It | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
rubbed some get all the wrong way. It reminds people of the big | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
picture. It reminds people that diplomatically we are in America's | :20:23. | :20:31. | |
bucket. The truth is, as the Prime Minister ended his speech, the more | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
influential that Britain is in Brussels, the more influential it | :20:35. | :20:45. | |
:20:45. | :20:46. | ||
is in Washington, Beijing and Delhi. And vice-versa. Before we end I | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
want to ask you more about President Obama. You have been very | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
frank about President Obama. And in I was linked in which you talked | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
about his high intelligence and his star quality, but also his | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
aloofness and his ability to be insensitive. Now we are going to | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
see his second term, how has he handled foreign policy-making? | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
foreign policy-making has been successful both in America... | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
asking you as a foreign policy profession of. For example, Israel- | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
Palestine. -- professional. I think he tried very hard in his first | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
year but he came up against an absolute block in the shape of the | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
Israeli Prime Minister. He was not able to get the movement on | :21:44. | :21:52. | |
settlements. It was a showdown. You saw President Obama and Binyamin | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
Netanyahu go head-to-head on this question of settlement building, | :21:56. | :22:05. | |
Obama bling to first. Was that a mistake? The Israelis have to agree, | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
they did not. I hope they continue trying in this administration. I | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
think they will. You think he will use political capital in trying to | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
bring Israel... I do nothing he will ignore that. I think his | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
Secretary of State will want to continue that effort as well. I | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
think they are handling the issue with caution and care. And trying | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
to put the brakes on his rare. not think there is a direct link | :22:37. | :22:47. | |
:22:47. | :22:48. | ||
between the two. -- Israel. You made a big point of saying we had | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
to go into Libya because attacks were going to be made on Benghazi. | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
60,000 people, many of them civilian have been killed in Syria. | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
Do you not see the same urgent need for military intervention in Syria? | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
I think the moral case is exactly the same. It is not greater. When | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
we went into Libya there was a smaller number of deaths than in | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
Syria. It goes back to what our Prime Minister and what others said | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
it when we went into Libya, because we were able to do something in | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
Libya does not mean we are able to do everything else where. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
Humanitarian intervention is not a universal principle? It is a | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
universal principle but it can only be applied in a feasible way. Syria | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
was always going to be very difficult from that point of view | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
for a number of reasons. In Libya you hadn't enclave which we could | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
protect. That was not the case in Syria. Principally because Syria | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
has and still has the protection from Iran and Russia which prevents | :24:03. | :24:09. |