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to perverti to pervertiurse of justice. That is the latest news. Now on BBC | :00:03. | :00:13. | |
:00:13. | :00:13. | ||
My guest today is renowned British plastic surgeon, Dr Mohammad Jawad, | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
who has helped reconstruct the faces of women disfigured by acid | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
attacks. He featured in an Oscar- winning documentary about his | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
humanitarian work in his native Pakistan. His high public profile | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
has helped raise awareness about the life-destroying nature of acid | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
attacks in Pakistan and elsewhere in Asia. But can it bring about | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
real change and action to help bring down the level of such | :00:37. | :00:47. | |
:00:47. | :01:11. | ||
Dr Mohammad Jawad, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. You think of | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
plastic surgery and you think of cosmetic surgery, does the glamour | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
end of your business worry you? is a misnomer, cosmetic is part of | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
plastic surgery. In training we go through all phases of plastic and | :01:27. | :01:37. | |
:01:37. | :01:40. | ||
reconstructive training. That includes the aesthetic part, some | :01:40. | :01:49. | |
people focus on that, but it is all the same process. You said in | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
February I want to restore the glory of plastic surgeons, boob | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
jobs, breast jobs have overshadowed our work restoring patients who are | :01:55. | :02:05. | |
:02:05. | :02:10. | ||
recovering from cancer... It sounds like you are a bit worried. Plastic | :02:10. | :02:18. | |
surgery evolved during wartime injuries. Burns and burns | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
reconstruction. Air force pilots were there for many years in | :02:23. | :02:33. | |
:02:33. | :02:37. | ||
reconstruction. It started with the burns, war injuries and deformities, | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
to reconstruct and rehabilitate these people to become effective | :02:40. | :02:49. | |
:02:50. | :02:51. | ||
members of society. The question is, how comfortable do you feel about | :02:51. | :03:01. | |
:03:01. | :03:02. | ||
the two ends of your work? understand you do very important | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
reconstructive work, but you do carry out operations on healthy | :03:05. | :03:15. | |
:03:15. | :03:17. | ||
people for cosmetic reasons. Doctors are there to make people | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
better, not just for vanity reasons. How do you feel about it? They are | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
not contradictory to each other. This person, who is relatively not | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
so happy in terms of reconstruction, you restore that. Somebody looking | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
for cosmetic, is also not happy for that reason. We restore that part | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
of the body. You see no contradiction. Do you see a paradox | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
that you do operations to augment some women's breasts, but you also | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
deal with women who are the victims of acid attacks, the result of some | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
kind of sexual harassment, if a woman has spurned a man's unwanted | :03:56. | :04:06. | |
:04:06. | :04:17. | ||
advances... I do not want to be judgmental about it. My job as a | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
plastic surgeon, we do not seek or like any physical deformity on any | :04:21. | :04:30. | |
individual. Whether that is a state of mind, I am not going to go into | :04:30. | :04:40. | |
:04:40. | :04:42. | ||
what causes that, but I have a care of duty. You do not see the paradox | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
that I set out for you? Not really. I know they are different. I do not | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
think they are related directly. You started your medical training | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
in Karachi, where you're from. Then you moved to the Republic of | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
Ireland for further training and then you came to the UK. You have | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
been going back to Pakistan to perform humanitarian operations, | :05:06. | :05:16. | |
:05:16. | :05:17. | ||
such as women who have been disfigured by acid attacks. You | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
have said you feel like to have a moral obligation to do so, what do | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
you mean? Education in Pakistan is actually free. I graduated from | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
college, you may not believe that I ended up paying for my whole | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
graduation. �80. That was a poor country, taxpayer money to educate | :05:40. | :05:50. | |
doctors, engineers, lawyers... All university graduates completely | :05:50. | :05:58. | |
subsidised. What we ended up doing, because there were not many | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
prospects, we got the first flight out and came out of the country. We | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
did not look back. Frankly speaking, that is what happened. There were a | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
lot of opportunities for us to return, but then we got involved | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
training, family issues... You put your personal ambitions ahead of | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
helping your country. Other doctors like you who leave countries in the | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
developing world where they have benefited from the education but | :06:28. | :06:37. | |
want the life in the West... We did not realise. You look back and | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
reflect, hang on, what has been happening? It was not clear to you | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
at an earlier stage? It was an opportunity to get out. There was | :06:48. | :06:58. | |
:06:58. | :07:01. | ||
never a guilt factor. You are part of what is known as the brain drain. | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
Doctors, other medical personnel from Asia, Africa, working in | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
Western nations. A lot of people have said this is not acceptable. | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
Let me ask you this, on a personal level you say you feel you have a | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
moral obligation to give something back to the country who trained you. | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
Should there not be something more formal than that? Should doctors be | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
:07:34. | :07:34. | ||
forced to in some way? Should there be some compensation? In 2005 we | :07:34. | :07:43. | |
had the Kashmir earthquake. I tell you, at that time a doctor from the | :07:43. | :07:53. | |
:07:53. | :08:02. | ||
West, Pakistani originally... 9999 and that point, I think the feeling | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
became very acute that we were living in a controlled situation in | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
the West. This actually brought us up. No moral or legal | :08:14. | :08:24. | |
responsibility. It was a very sticky point for me. I need to | :08:24. | :08:33. | |
start thinking in terms of going back. But it is voluntary. | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
Developing countries are effectively paying to train staff | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
to support the whole services of developed countries. That is true. | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
Rather than having a voluntary activity such as yours, should | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
there be something more formal? Compensation from doctors like you | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
who have left the country? I agree. We are working on that. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
Collectively we could have a comprehensive way of giving back. | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
It will come into legal terminology. Cash paying back to the society | :09:05. | :09:15. | |
:09:15. | :09:19. | ||
that gave us... It is an investment of my own poor society into me. | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
What will be the dividend for the society? It is a very important | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
question. The Acid Survivors Foundation says there are 150 cases | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
of women who have been attacked. That does not just go on in | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
Pakistan, but in South East Asia, Latin America, even here in the UK. | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
You were involved in a documentary last year looking at these two | :09:40. | :09:50. | |
:09:50. | :09:53. | ||
young women. We see you visibly moved when you are talking to them | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
and treating them. What did you find so moving about their cases? | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
have been going to Pakistan every few months. I have being involved | :10:02. | :10:10. | |
in different parts of the surgery. I know we have problems. It is not | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
a perfect society. But this aspect of my society I was not aware of. | :10:16. | :10:24. | |
You did not know about acid attacks? I did not. Honest to God. | :10:24. | :10:33. | |
When did you find out? I got involved looking after Katie Piper. | :10:33. | :10:43. | |
:10:43. | :10:43. | ||
Her jealous ex-boyfriend... Yes, March 2008. This was the worst seen | :10:43. | :10:51. | |
I had come across. You did not know until you had treated Katie Piper | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
in 2008 that young people in Pakistan were being attacked? Your | :10:57. | :11:06. | |
wife is a consultant gynaecologist. Even she did not know? We never | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
came across it. This was never an issue. It was only a few months | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
later I was talking to one of my old bosses... Somebody likes you, | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
who maintains their links to Pakistan, even you were not aware | :11:21. | :11:31. | |
:11:31. | :11:38. | ||
that this kind of thing went on? I only learned about it in the latter | :11:38. | :11:48. | |
:11:48. | :11:50. | ||
part of 2008. She had heard about your work. It was brushed under the | :11:50. | :11:59. | |
carpet? She was bringing awareness. But yes, it is something under the | :11:59. | :12:09. | |
:12:09. | :12:10. | ||
carpet. In the film, Saving Face, a woman, 39 years of age, attacked by | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
her in-laws. Terribly disfigured. She could not find any way to | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
support herself, she had to go back and live with the people who | :12:19. | :12:29. | |
carried out the horrible attack on her. Yes, that is a tragedy. I was | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
not surprised, I was shocked. I am aware of certain aspects of society, | :12:36. | :12:46. | |
:12:46. | :12:52. | ||
that society can be so apathetic to such people I was not aware. What | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
was it like when you saw someone in that situation? A young, attractive | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
woman who was so horribly disfigured? I'm just beginning to | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
learn this aspect of society to be honest. I was never aware of it. | :13:08. | :13:18. | |
Why men do it. I just learned the different causes, believe me. | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
is it like when you yourself, you're a father of two daughters. | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
When you see these young women in this situation, as a father, as a | :13:25. | :13:35. | |
:13:35. | :13:40. | ||
doctor? It breaks my heart. It breaks my heart that men can be so | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
low to act... If you are not listening to me, I have to deface | :13:47. | :13:57. | |
:13:57. | :14:14. | ||
her. To achieve what I cannot These women are psychologically | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
scarred. If your physicality is destroyed, it is very difficult to | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
heal. Most people see beauty is skin deep but... If you take the | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
face away, it is the portal of communication. And they're young | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
women. We have women like this and they are almost the walking dead. | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
I'm trying to... I was not trying to be angry, I was trying to | :14:36. | :14:46. | |
:14:46. | :14:46. | ||
compartmentalise. I thought, "Listen, whatever's happened has | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
happened. What can I do to physically restore this damage?" | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
Conscientiously, I had to concentrate on what I could do best | :14:54. | :15:04. | |
and let other people look into the causes. I was going to ask you this. | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
You've said, all I can do is use my skills to patch people up and give | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
them a better face. Is that really all you can do? Well, I managed to | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
speak with them because I can speak their language and I was able to | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
understand and listen to them. I was involved with Katie, getting | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
her to tell her story. That was therapeutic for her. Similarly, | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
when we got involved with the patients, we could listen. They can | :15:35. | :15:45. | |
:15:45. | :15:46. | ||
be brave, become real heroes. These ladies who have come out and tell | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
their stories, maybe they can save more lives. By coming out and | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
speaking and saying what? That this is what men have been doing. We | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
have been protecting men in our society unnecessarily. Men are the | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
weaker sex. We are not looking after women. Again, it is against | :15:59. | :16:07. | |
religion. Let me say to you, for me, the reason was shocking. My | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
religion Islam came to liberate women 1,400 years ago. That is my | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
understanding. And has given the first equal rights to women. In my | :16:15. | :16:22. | |
religion, the mother is the primary source. So you are supposed to | :16:22. | :16:29. | |
protect your women - your wife, your daughter, your women. And | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
where this behaviour comes from, I could not figure it out. Because I | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
said, "You are a deeply religious country. Why...?" You say that you | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
patch people up but you actually have a very high public profile. | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
You are the subject of this Oscar award-winning documentary. You are | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
here speaking on television. You can be more than a doctor. You can | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
raise awareness of this terrible disaster that befalls women not | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
only in Pakistan but around the world. You can go beyond being a | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
doctor. If you look at Malala Yousafzai, she is not just a | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
student anymore, she is an activist and campaigner for girls' education | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
around the world. Will you just remain a plastic surgeon and | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
perform these operations or will you go further and try to say, "I | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
am actually going to start a campaign to bring in the right laws, | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
make sure they are implemented so that this kind of violence against | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
women is no longer tolerated for whatever reason in our society"? | :17:31. | :17:41. | |
will share with you... I know you're trying to challenge me, to | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
get into public life. We managed to change the law for the first time. | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
You will be pleased to know that the man who threw the acid received | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
two life sentences. We have set the ball rolling in that part of the | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
world. A new law that sentences people who do this in Pakistan to | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
many years in prison. Yes. We are getting involved in India as well. | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
We are learning from it. Of course, this campaign is much bigger than | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
the individual. It's a bigger... This is a women's issue, an | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
opportunity issue, giving them empowerment and raising their | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
profile. And I, as a simple person, I am trying the best I can to use | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
whatever I have to actually help these women. You say that this is a | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
women's issue. And indeed you have one woman Pakistani MP who helped | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
get that legislation passed which gives heavier prison sentences to | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
acid attackers but she says there is still a lack of political will. | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
She says it's difficult to get the police to co-operate with the women | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
because they are under no pressure to do so. We see similar trends of | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
gender-based violence in India. There are not enough women in the | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
police forces and so on. So, it's not just the women you have to get | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
to speak out. You have got to talk to the men as well. Are you talking | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
to those men in power as a man yourself? I am. And you will be | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
pleased to know that we are starting a new campaign. That | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
country is very influenced by the mullahs and the imams. We are | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
educating those people in the countryside. There are set verses | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
in the Koran about the role of women and the respect that must be | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
given to women in society. And we are encouraging them to spread that. | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
They must be educated. These men are not very well educated in that | :19:38. | :19:47. | |
part of the world. 44% of children in Pakistan have stunted growth. We | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
have a problem. So you see poverty, a lack of literacy... And then we | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
have the negative influence of these religious figures as well. | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
And we try to convince them that they can actually become a force of | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
good. Do you think they are listening? How do you do this? Do | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
you travel around these rural areas? I don't but we have people | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
who have the relationship and they are a good way to approach and | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
spread the word. It is like the mindset needs to be changed, the | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
mindset that has been there for years. It won't change over night. | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
It is a difficult job. It is a difficult job to transform a | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
society. Look, evolution... I benefit from living in an open | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
society in Britain and the West. And we fought for the rights. The | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
men encourage women and the women encourage the men and democracy | :20:44. | :20:54. | |
prospers. We are in a different type of world. We're fighting, | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
there's conflict. The damaging part in my opinion in Pakistan's history | :20:57. | :21:07. | |
:21:07. | :21:10. | ||
is when it legally, reduced the rights of the woman. The former | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
president? In 1979, 1980. I can't remember exactly. The whole | :21:15. | :21:25. | |
:21:25. | :21:27. | ||
generation started treating women as second class. That was never the | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
case before. That is the root cause of the problem that gives rise to | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
this kind of violence? I personally think it went unchecked because | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
women became second class. I mean, somebody's son is killed in front | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
of a lady, her witness will not be accepted in the court of law. | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
how do you... You have said there are people who go to the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
countryside areas to get women to speak out when this kind of | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
violence is perpetrated against them and also to change the mindset, | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
but it is difficult. In your own film, there was a 22-year-old | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
Pakistani woman who lost one eye in an acid attack and when the film | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
was shown in Pakistan, she was very worried. She said it was | :22:09. | :22:18. | |
disrespecting her family and they would make an issue of it. We may | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
now be in more danger and we're scared of that. She does not want | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
to show her face to the world. Did that worry you, that in some cases | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
it might reveal the fact that these people think the time is not right | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
to speak out? It is difficult, I agree. Everybody took a risk. We | :22:34. | :22:44. | |
:22:44. | :22:46. | ||
became very unpopular as well. Why did we show this aspect? But it is | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
an important aspect of society. And these film-makers were very brave | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
people and the women who came forward to tell the story were very | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
brave. When you shake the system up, some people will be upset. They'll | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
threaten you. And I am sure these women felt threatened. It is a very | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
patriarchal society but something has to happen. It has to change. | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
The one thing that I am trying to encourage is for men to come | :23:13. | :23:19. | |
forward to denounce this activity. In Bangladesh, they brought a huge | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
group of men, 10,000 men, denouncing violence. And now, in | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
the last five years, they have brought it down. My final question | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
is this. You are a renowned plastic surgeon for your reconstructive | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
work. Do you believe that now your high profile has raised awareness | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
of acid burn victims to the extent that we are now seeing real efforts | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
to bring about change and action that will not only reduce but | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
eliminate such acts of violence? Yes. And I am hoping that if we can | :23:52. | :23:55. |