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target it at jobs. Those are the headlines. It's now | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
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HARDtalk has come to Qatar, for an exclusive interview with Khaled | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
Meshaal, the leader of the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas. | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
He used to be based in Damascus but broke ranks with President Assad | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
after the oppression of the Syrian uprising. His presence here is one | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
more sign of change in the Middle East. But what about change in the | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
Israeli Palestinian conflict? Does have mass have anything new to | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :01:05. | ||
Khaled Meshaal, welcome to HARDtalk. Four in December of last year, you | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
visited Gaza and you said that there Hamas had scored a famous | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
victory over Israel during that week or so of confrontation in | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
November. But do you accept that that most recent confrontation | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
changed nothing when it comes to the strategic balance in the | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
region? TRANSLATION: As a matter of fact, we can't claim to have | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
defeated Israel ought to have restored our homeland or in the way | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
we aspire to. -- in the way. Israel started the aggression when they | :01:48. | :01:54. | |
assassinated the market leader. It was a time when Egypt was seeking a | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
truce. That was treachery. The Palestinian response led by Hamas | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
and with the occupation of the other resistant faction was great | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
and to Israel by surprise and created confusion on their part. | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
The second point is the outcome of the war. Israel started the war. It | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
ended only when the terms of the Resistance were met, opposite to | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
what is rare wanted. Binyamin Netanyahu did not think about the | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
war, he just wanted to have victory over Hamas and the resistance in | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
Gaza. The result was it backfired. The war was ended according to the | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
conditions of the Resistance and this is a great achievement. | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
I do not want to waste time going over who started that particular | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
confrontation. The his review is very different. But I am interested | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
in the nature of the language you use when he went to Gaza afterwards. | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
-- the Israeli view is very. You said Palestine is hours from the | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
Jordan river to the sea. -- ours. There will be no concession of any | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
inch of land, you said. It was the most uncompromising and hardline | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
speech and yet it does not actually fit with the rhetoric that you and | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
other Hamas leaders have used at different times in the last year. | :03:16. | :03:24. | |
What is going on? TRANSLATION: In regard to the conflict of the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
Palestinian land, you are speaking of the established principles. What | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
I said in Gaza was an expression of the feeling of the average | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Palestinian citizen. I am a representative of these great | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
people. I was in Gaza amongst them, telling them it is our homeland. It | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
is our right. We are the ones who have been assaulted. But hang on, | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
if you are saying it was natural emotion, are you telling me it was | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
nothing more than symbolism? It is not something that should be taken | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
seriously, in terms of the politics of any future negotiation? | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
TRANSLATION: What I have stated in Gaza is not contradictory to our | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
made two statements. One, with the Palestinians have always been | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
prepared to resort to any means that spares us war and bloodshed on | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
the condition it restores our right. We have adopted any peaceful | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
methods if they persisted as in that but we waited and they failed | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
us. We were forced to resort to resistance. Nobody should blame us | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
for that. Secondly, week in Hamas were and are still prepared to | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
engage with the Palestinian and Arab agreement that works to | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
achieve the agreement of common denominators. Hamas did not back | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
down on this. We will talk about internal Palestinian reconciliation | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
later but I just want to nail down what your current position is on | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
the question of a true state -- the two-state solution, to provide a | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinian. One of Saudi | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
newspaper the other day reported that you are now prepared to accept | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
a permanent lasting peace based on a two-state solution. You have told | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
this, according to the newspaper, to King Abdullah and you have asked | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
him to be relayed this message to President Obama. Is that true? | :05:27. | :05:35. | |
TRANSLATION: This is not true. Hamas issued a statement refuting | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
what that newspaper has published. The two-state solution was not | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
addressed with King Abdullah doing my recent visit to Jordan. The | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
whole world knows that Hamas has never stated that it believes in | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
these two-state solution. It believes in the Palestinian state. | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
What is absent from the region is the Palestinian state. The | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
Palestinian people are seeking their own state and do not care | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
about their enemy. This enemy is occupying our land. I am concerned | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
with a Palestinian state. The issue is not a two-state solution. The | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
issue is Palestinian status. with respect, the issue is the two- | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
state solution. Because no Palestinian opinion poll that I | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
have seen suggest that the Palestinian people as a whole | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
belief that you are ever going to recover what you call the | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
Palestinian National Right to all of the land between the Jordan | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
river and the sea. What they do seem to believe, and many support, | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
is the notion of a Palestinian state inside the 1967 lines, that | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
is the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. The question is simple. | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
Can you accept a state side by side with Israel on the 67 lines? Yes or | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
no? TRANSLATION: Yasser Arafat has accepted the two-state solution but | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
the not achieve a Palestinian state. Hummus also agreed to the two-state | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
solution but he did not get the Palestinian state. -- High Mass. | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
Today, I say to the world and the American administration, the second | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
Obama administration, that the political approach to the region | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
must change. Do not demand the Palestinians to offer any new | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
initiatives. We say it is our right to claim all of Palestine. But we | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
want to achieve what is possible in the light of the Palestinian and | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
Arab consensus over it. We accept the 1967 borders. The stake to the | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
1967 borders and with Jerusalem as the capital and maintain the right | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
to return. These are the demands agreed by the Arabs and | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
Palestinians. If the Americans and the international community managed | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
to force Israel to comply with that. Then you can discuss the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
establishment of a Palestinian state as much as you want. Before | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
that, while one half of the Palestinian people are free and the | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
other under occupation, no-one can offer the Arabs and Palestinians to | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
offer more compromises. But you can't achieve reconciliation with | :08:15. | :08:25. | |
:08:25. | :08:27. | ||
Fatah and -- unless you make this basic shift on a programme like | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
this, that you can imagine living side by side in a lasting peace | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
with the state of Israel, thereby recognising Israel, and that you | :08:38. | :08:44. | |
are prepared in that context to end the armed struggle. TRANSLATION: | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
Who says the recognition of Israel is a prerequisite to Palestinian | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
reconciliation? I as a Palestinian want to achieve reconciliation, | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
like any other government worldwide, Britain, France, where many | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
political parties take part, they must agree on a political agenda. | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
But they don't have to share one political position. We do not wish | :09:07. | :09:14. | |
to force our agenda on Fatah or theirs on hours. We used to work on | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
shared principles. The first in 2005. And then the national record | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
in 2006 and also 2011, the Cairo agreement, and then the Doha | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
document as a base for reconciliation. This is our | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
experience so nobody can dictate to us hash we -- how we should | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
reconcile with each other. It is interesting that you point to the | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
previous efforts to achieve a reconciliation within the | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
Palestinian community. Frankly, you have been trying for many years and | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
you have failed for many years. I came to this interview thinking I | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
might hear something new from you, because there are some new elements | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
in the situation. We have Obama in a second term, who, according to | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
the new Secretary of State John Kerry, wants to put the priority on | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
making Middle East peace. We have a new Israeli government. And yet you | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
suggest that your position has not changed at all. Isn't it time for | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
some new thinking? TRANSLATION: At the time when Yasser Arafat agreed | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
to the recognition of Israel, based on the UN resolutions two for two | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
and to create, it was a new stance. But Israeli policy has not changed. | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
-- 242 and 200 they D8. The new thing that must take place for the | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
still water to move is a change in the as really stands to American | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
and international pressure in order to be fair to the Palestinian | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
people. On the other hand, who wants to achieve a breakthrough in | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
this sentiment up in the absence of Hamas? They have tried and failed. | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
Those who tried failed. If the Obama administration is willing and | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
we are ready to assist it, the starting point is to put pressure | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
on the Israelis to change their stance and not by pressuring the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
Arabs and the Palestinians. Because they have shown all of the possible | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
flexibility and pragmatism their ease. But many Arabs do not think | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
you are being realistic. One respected commentator from the | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
American Task Force on Palestine says that your position that you | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
expressed in Gaza in December is totally unworkable from the point | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
of view of the Palestinian national interest. Nobody in their right | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
mind imagines that there can ever be a Palestinian military victory | :11:39. | :11:48. | |
over Israel. Those words play into the hands of the Israeli sentiments. | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
That is what many Palestinians think. TRANSLATION: If you had been | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
with me during our visit to Gaza, you would have known what each and | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
every person wants. They want their full rights in Palestine. But our | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
people are civilised. We are conscious of the balance of power | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
and are aware of the current Arab situation. But... But... Please, | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
allow me. Were you not watching the television when hundreds of | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
thousands of people in Gaza expressed their food -- their | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
support for fatter and how would about? The man committed to making | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
peace in Israel? TRANSLATION: This pleases me. It has a Palestinian | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
movement launched in 1965. They declared an armed struggle for the | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
Liberation of Palestine. But the week Arab position forced the | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
Palestinians to deal with whatever this Arab situation allowed. | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
Considering also the international alignment in favour of Israel. In | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
the context of the Arab Spring, some Arab regimes have changed. | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Egypt has changed. Leaders today have responsibility towards | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
Palestine, which is different from the past. If the international | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
community and American administration and Israelis are not | :13:08. | :13:18. | |
:13:18. | :13:23. | ||
aware of this, they will waste One of your supporters was Bashar | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
al-Assad. But you are no longer in Damascus. You are now I fierce | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
critic of his repressive policies towards the Syrian uprising. That | :13:33. | :13:41. | |
creates a problem for you. The Iranians, you key sponsors, are | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
angry that you Brookwood Bashar al- Assad. -- broke with. What you | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
think of the Iranian decision to support and give military advisers, | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
weaponry, money, to a regime that you say is killing its own people? | :13:58. | :14:04. | |
TRANSLATION: You can address this question to the Iranian leadership. | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
I am asking you what you think. You have a light on a Iranian support | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
for a long time. Can you picture ties to them? TRANSLATION: We | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
disagree with them on what is going on in Syria. But we do not wish to | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
sever relations with Iran or any other country. Despite the fact we | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
have different opinions. The issues are clear. By saying that, I mean | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
that the people are aware of what is right and wrong. I believe the | :14:33. | :14:42. | |
majority of people believe that the military solution is wrong. We | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
refuse this option. It is a crime. We side with the Syrian people. | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
People across the globe have the right to seek freedom, liberty, | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
reforms and democracy. It is not the right of any leader or regime | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
or regional power to support a military option that kills people. | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
But do you accept that you need new allies and your position in some | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
ways his maturer than it was a year ago? How do you cope with the fact | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
that Iran is looking, again, and wondering whether you are a loyal | :15:25. | :15:35. | |
:15:35. | :15:36. | ||
friend. TRANSLATION: There is no the way the Syrian regime has | :15:36. | :15:45. | |
handled the crisis. This daughter that is taking place in Syria, we | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
had to leave Damascus despite the fact the regime has supporters. We | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
disagree with Iran as well regarding what is going on in Syria. | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
This has affected our relations. But the relations are still valid. | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
We want to maintain relations with the whole of the Arab and Muslim | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
world. There have been changes because of the events of the Arab | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
Spring. If we have lost some support, on the other hand we have | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
regained additional assets and allies. Cairo is not the Cairo of | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
the past. We can see a massive difference between the Cairo of | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
2008, when Lebanon declared war. And the Cairo of today, when the | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
recent aggression came to an end under an agreement sponsored by | :16:35. | :16:45. | |
:16:45. | :16:45. | ||
President Morsi. With respect, if I may interrupt, the Egyptians are | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
not going to supply you with rockets as the Iranians have. You | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
have said that your relationship with Tehran has been damaged, where | :16:57. | :17:06. | |
are you going to get these rockets you want to go? TRANSLATION: Hamas | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
is a community that has a lot of expertise. We do not rely on a | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
single source. We have the capacity to manufacture and obtain arms from | :17:15. | :17:24. | |
other sources. And we have proven to the entire world that we can | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
stand up to Israel's superior Arsenal. I am not too worried. We | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
welcome any support. We are defending a just cause. People have | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
been biased towards Israeli aggression for so long. Answer the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
simple question. I the Iranians still supplying you with weapons? | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
TRANSLATION: This is not a matter for us to speak about. You speak as | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
though your strength is increasing. But look at the reality on the | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
ground in das of. We still see the vast majority of people there are | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
reliant on food aid. The economy is still in a terrible mess. You have | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
had six years running the Gaza Strip. You have been able to give | :18:15. | :18:25. | |
almost nothing in material terms to confrontation policy does not work. | :18:25. | :18:34. | |
TRANSLATION: What about the scene in the West Bank? They believe in | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
negotiations. They do not believe an armed resistance. They suffer | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
from financial crisis, strikes and other problems. The problems in the | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
West Bank are not caused by the policies. These problems are caused | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
by the occupation. Our people are so low Vyas, highly educated. -- | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
civilised. The occupation is depriving them of creativity and | :18:59. | :19:07. | |
productivity. Opinion polls in the West Bank show what Palestinian | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
people want first and foremost, right now, his reconciliation and | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
unity in the Palestinian factions. With that in mind, and you will | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
have more negotiations with Mahmoud Abbas, are you prepared to tell me | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
that in an interim phase toward national unity and new elections, | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
you are prepared to recognise Mahmoud Abbas as the interim | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
president and prime minister of the Palestinian Authority that prepares | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
the ground for new elections? TRANSLATION: Yes. First of all, we | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
are moving ahead in peace negotiation methods. Yesterday I | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
telephoned mum would a bus. On Friday we have a meeting in Cairo. | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
-- Mahmoud Abbas. There are preparations for parliamentary | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
elections. Also elections of the Executive Council. The PLO has been | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
revived. They are holding meetings. We are addressing the security | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
issues. There is a social reconciliation meeting. We are | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
moving ahead. Once we agree on days for elections and providing a | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
guarantee for all the factions and individuals to participate freely | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
and easily, with no restrictions whatsoever and the necessary | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
funding. I assure you that Hamas will respect this election. No | :20:43. | :20:51. | |
matter what happens. We believe in democracy. But we want to be | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
respected. We do not want to be the victims of the world rejecting the | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
democratic election results as they did in 2006. Why should I have any | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
body else takers would seriously when Human Rights Watch reports | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
that last year more than 100 activists were tortured or abused | :21:12. | :21:20. | |
in a master tension inside the Gaza Strip? -- Hamas detention. The | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
reality on the ground is that it is no sign of reconciliation | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
whatsoever. TRANSLATION: There is no doubt that there were mistakes | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
here and there. The greatest mistake took place in the West Bank | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
as a result of the practices of the security services towards hundreds | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
of detainees. These conditions that emerged under the Palestinian | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
Division harmed the interests of the people. It damaged its national | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
unity. We wish to close this chapter and head straight to the | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
reconciliation. This will be water under the bridge. Our real enemy is | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
Israel. The division created a negative atmosphere and feelings. I | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
am adamant on negotiation. But through the programme here, I would | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
like to address the Obama administration and ask them not to | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
veto a reconciliation. It is our right as Palestinians. If that is | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
not possible, we want them not to interfere. This is a Palestinian | :22:24. | :22:33. | |
affair. Like all other nations, we have a right to decide. Let me ask | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
you this about your vision of the future. You said that you did not | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
want to stand again, to be nominated again, as the chief of | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
Hamas. There is some debate about the balance of power inside your | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
organisation between those in Gaza and those outside. Is it time for | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
you to step aside and give up the leadership fully to the people | :23:00. | :23:08. | |
inside cars are? -- das of. TRANSLATION: Analysis of internal | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
affairs of Hamas has always led to exaggeration and error. There is no | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
such thing as an internal struggle. They are competing interests, which | :23:17. | :23:25. | |
is normal. You said that she wanted to quit. TRANSLATION: Years and I | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
declared a year ago. People have put pressure on me to back down. | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
There is pressure from inside Hamas. But I have not changed my mind | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
about the stance. Hamas is a movement made up of institutions. | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
These institutions will decide on this matter. As for me, I am still | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
convinced of what I announced a year ago. It is a personal belief. | :23:53. | :24:02. | |
Hamas is not a movement built around cars of. -- jars of. I was | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
born a Palestinian. I saw the occupation and have lived through | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
the 1967 war. From the beginning of my life, I have worked on the | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
aspirations of my people. I'll die struggling for the sake of those | :24:16. | :24:21. |