Najeeb Al Nauimi - Human Rights Lawyer HARDtalk

Now it is time for hard talk. From Hardtalk has come to Dublin - the

capital of Ireland, which holds the presidency of the European Union.

It is a symbolic leadership role which coincides with the attempts

to escape from the economic straitjacket imposed by the EU and

the IMF when they agreed to bail out the Irish economy. My guest is

Lucinda Craighto. -- Craighton.

Are they convincing the world they are bouncing back?

Welcome to Hardtalk. Let's start by talking about the enormous debt

mountain which has almost crushed the Irish state N the last few days

your Government has trumpeted a deal which has remortgaged a huge

chunk of that debt. It seems, in a way, a symbol of how deep the

crisis is in this country that that is the greatest triumph of your

Government, that you have remortgaged some debt. We are not

mid-way through the term in office. I hope by the end of our

Government's term that we will have achieved more than reducing the

debt burden. It is important. We have, I suppose a mead unanimous-

term strategy. One part -- medium- term strategy. One part has been

achieved. The next step is getting back to the markets and being able

to borrow money at a reasonable, sustainable rate so we can fund our

public services and so on and run our Government. That deadline, I

suppose is fast approaching. Ensuring we have managed the debt

burden is an important part of that taskment. Although this concerns

the 30 billion euros of the collapse of the Anglo Irish Bank

and nationwide, that money has to be paid back. It doesn't mean you

have solved the other banking debt, which is tens and tens of billions

We were the first country standing against what was pretty much a

tsunami in the banking world, which was about to hit the European Union,

particularly the eurozone. Ireland was the first country, if you like,

in the line of fire. We definitely took a disproportionate hit. Even

when you and other members of the Government were saying this was a

great result for Ireland, we had thousands taking to the streets in

Dublin and elsewhere, led by the trade union movement saying nothing

has changed. Still the Irish people are paying vast amounts of money

and suffering prolonged austerity because of the mistakes made and

the incompetence of the leaders of the banking system in this country

and politicians and Europeans who refuse to be fair to the Irish

public. I think very few people would say nothing has changed,

because it is significant. Over the next ten years the Irish state,

Irish taxpayers would have had to pay 3.2 billion euro each year,

every year, in order to pay back. That has now changed. We don't re-

pay any of the principal sum for 25 years. It has extended from an

average of seven to eight years right out to close to 30 years. The

interest rate will be at a lower rate. It is a good deal. It is an

important deal. It's not the only solution to our challenges. It's an

important part of that. When I talk about people who say not much has

changed, they are ordinary workers and many jobless people who look

around at the reality of their own lives and, what will change for me?

Just looking at the fact that your next budget will be an austerity

budget. There'll be taxes on property and water coming up. As

far as I understand it, you are committed to cutting four billion

more from the state budget by 2015, so the cuts will continue. And the

trade union movement say, new deal, same problem, 1.8 million people

cannot pay off a bank debt that amounts to 64 billion euros. We're

in the process of working out the budgetary impact of this deal.

Austerity does continue, doesn't it? Of course it does. Let's be

clear. Our consultation programme would have to continue, in any

event. Our deficit is very large. Our deficit, even at the end of

2012 is 8% of GDP. Peeking this year at just over -- peaking this

year at just over 120% GDP. The point we have to make is we have to

close the gap between what we are spending and taking in. That

doesn't change, irrespective of the banking debt. In essence the EU

required your Government to nationalise all that private debt.

That's not the only reason. What I am getting is that Irish people

look at Greece, for example, where they have successfully, frankly,

renegotiated the bailout package. More money from Europe when they

said they could not cope with the austerity imposeded on them. Irish

people have said, we have played it straight. We have been utterly -

beadant to the programme. Because of this we get punished the most.

There are two sides to that. One is that I think the situation in

Greece is not comparable to the situation in Ireland. We have

different problems. There's a different analysis. There are

different soe luelgss. It's not -- solutions. It is not fair to say

that Ireland has been treated differently or less favourably to

how Greece has been treated. I don't think that is true. The

second point is we have been working incrementally since we came

into office just under two years ago to reduce the burden on Irish

taxpayers. The first thing we did was reduce the interest rate on our

loans in July 2011. That, over the course of the lifetime of our loans

will save 10 billion euro. We have renegotiated the note, which was a

completely unfair and unreasonable and unsustainable arrangement

between the Irish central bank and the successor to Anglo Irish Bank

and the ECB. That will save the Irish taxpayer 20 billion euros.

Bit by bit, we are improving the situation. In terms of the debt

burden - meanwhile we are concentrating on getting the Irish

economy back on track and reforming our economic sector by ensuring

that we make Ireland more competitive. Which requires growth.

It is difficult to deliver growth when we have seen six austerity

budgets. We have discussed the fact there are bound to be more over the

coming two to three years. That has not changed. We see unemployment

around 15%. We see young people, and we will talk about this more

later, but young people leaving this country because they cannot

find work. As I put it to you again, the trade unions are leading a

popular movement, which says enough, we simply cannot take any more.

trade unions obviously have a role which they have to fulfil in Irish

society and indeed in the Irish economy. There are other voices as

well, for example employ years. It's not just the voice of trade

unions we have to listen to. It's the whole package. And all elements

of our society. If you look at Ireland, and compare us to other

member-states, without naming them but the Irish economy, for example

in 2011, bear in mind we entered our IMF programme at the end of

2010. 2011 - within a matter of months, the situation in Ireland

had stabilised and we began to reattract investment into this

economy, which was absent for the previous few years. 2011, for

example, was the year where we attracted the highest level of

first time foreign investment in the history of the state. Do you

believe in Ireland being out of the economic straitjacket imposed by

the IMF in the emergency bailout. Will you be escaped from that by

the end of this year? Yes. sure? Absolutely. Here's one last

figure, which I wonder whether it gives you cause. The trade unions

are claiming every Irish person has paid 9,000 euros per capita, in

terms of the bank bail out and what it has cost the Irish state and

taxpayer. They reckon the average is 192 euros. Ireland they argue

has borne the massive brunt of this. If that is to include all debt as

if paid up front, well of course that doesn't reflect reality

because the repayment period is extended for both the loans that we

have had to brother from the E FSM and through -- borrow from the EFSM.

8 How on earth are you going to ensure that Europe adopts a

programme that delivers stability, growth and jobs? This is the

challenge. Our focus is very much, firstly, on ensuring the single

market, which has been the success story of the European Union, of the

European project - the consumer market of 500 million people, that

that is opened up. There is a lot of protectionalism in Europe. We

want it opened up so we can see small and medium-sized companies,

foreign investors trade across boarders, through the sale and --

borders, through the sale and services of all forms of products.

That's not the case at the moment. I am interested to hear your

language and compare and contrast it with David Cameron across the

water, in London, when he made that major speech just the other day,

announcing that if he wins the next British election there'll be an in-

out referendum on European membership. His message is, right

now, he thinks there's something dysfunctional about how the

European Union works and for Britain's part he wants a

renegotiation of the deal. Do you think there's something

dysfunctional about the way the EU works right now? No, I don't. What

I took from the speech - I thought it was an interesting speech. It

was reaffirming the UK's commitment to the European Union. As long as

the European Union reforms. Exactly! Accepts fundamental reform.

I think we're all trying. It is difficult - we have 27 member-

states. It's not unfortunately possible to reform like that. What

we want to do and I think that Ireland and the UK have a very

common agenda in this respect and David Cameron is the first person

to talk about the potential for the single market - the first person to

praise the single market over the past 20 years and talk about the

need to improve it. Britain is by far your biggest trading partner in

the world in fact. When one of the respected economic commentators

here wrote this the other day I wonder whether you agree. "Whether

politicians like it or not, relations with Britain are far more

important than relations with any other country in the world. Britain

is our future, as well as our past." Do you agree with that?

certainly think that the UK is our most - it is clear the UK is our

most important trading partner. Our bilateral relations are stronger

than ever before. How big a problem would it be if the British public

in 2017, if they voted to leave the I hope it doesn't happen. I don't

believe it will happen. I hope it isn't the case. Assuming Britain

left the EU and the single market, what would Ireland do? We wouldn't

be following suit. We see a huge potential, as does the British

Government, in deepening the single market and exploiting all of the

potential from the single market that exists for now and for the

future. I think the other point that is hugely important for us, a

country that has very strong ties with the United States and huge

hopes and expectations to broaden our horizons in terms of global

trade, that leaving the European Union, at a time when the EU is

just about to embark on a free trade agreement with the the United

States, Canada and Japan and other crucial regions of the world, we

don't want to turn our back on that. Your Prime Minister has been very

clear that Britain, in the end, cannot, and various metaphors are

used, cannot expect an to cherry- pick the powers it wants it

repatriate and dictate the terms of a club which is of 27, soon to be

28mebts members, not all about the needs of one particular member?

think that is fair. Ireland, in essence, think that is Britain is

being profoundly selfish? No, I wouldn't say that. Look, I

appreciate that there is a very difficult debate in the UK on this

subject. I appreciate that... That the UK Government, I think, I

presume British citizens, want to clarify the relationship with the

European Union. Before we end, I do want to address a few, sort of,

internal issues in Ireland. It seems to me you have been one of

the out spoken ministers in the gurnt government. Delivering an

interesting message that Ireland needs to modernise and change. You

said for Ireland too long has had a disfunctional political system. You

suggested it would be good for Ireland to be a little more

ideological. To have clearer dividing linings between political

parties based on ideology and less of the old networking cronyism that

we have seen in the past. Is that a fair reflection of the way you

think Ireland must change? Certainly. With the caveat that, of

course, it's unusual that we also have a government that is

compromised of the centre left and the centre-right. We have a very

broad government at the moment. Still cronies in government?

wouldn't say that. I think it's useful to that we have a very large

majority in government and stable majority in government, but, of

course, obviously, you know, it impacts on this discussion about

having an ideological kind of Ireland. Ideological and modern.

That is the direction you want Ireland to go in. I wonder why you

have decided to take a couple of high profiles file position that is

maybe wouldn't fit easily into that notion of modernisation. First one,

on gay marriage. You have said you are up for civil partnerships. You

believe they are the right way to go. You do not want to see gay

marriage in Ireland? Why? Well, I spotion, I have been a supporter --

suppose, I have been a supporter of the notion that gay people should

have -- Equality? Rights. Surely equality means, should they wish to

do so, they can get married in the same way that heterosexual couples

can get married? It is a matser of opinion in our constitution and the

way it is interpreted by our court system marriage is and has been and

continues to be defined as a marriage between a man and woman.

You are defending it on the basis of tradition? There is not

something wrong with tradition. teasing out with how it fits with

your notion that Ireland needs to modernise, needs to look forward to

the 21st century? Absolutely. I don't think modernisation means you

abandon tradition. I think you can have both side by side. There are

many ways in which we need to modernise, I don't happen to

believe that is one of them. Speaking as somebody who, unlike

many of my colleagues in our Parliament spoke on our legislation,

two years ago, to introduce civil partnership, I spoke in favour of

it because I believed it was the right thing. That, I suppose, you

know, is a matter of opinion. Another one passionate - What I

think will happen, on that subject, I think that there will be most

likely a referendum to change the definition of marriage in our

constitution at some point. What do you think they will decide? I don't

know. Genuinely I don't know. I think there are very divided

opinions. Opinions are shifting, aren't they? If one is going to be

very blunt about it, the role and influence of the Catholic Church is

changing pretty rapidly in this country? Absolutely. Which brings

me to another point, your passionate defence of Ireland's

current laws and practices when it comes to abortion. It's one of the

most draconia countries in the Europe when it comes to outlawing

abortion. Abortions can only happen in this country if there is a

substantial, significant risk to the life of the mother. You want

the current status quo to be maintained even though there is a

very loud and public argument now, with many Irish people, who want a

change. Indeed, your own government is now talking about legislating to

be clearer and actually a little broader about the specification in

which an abortion can be carried out. Why are you against that?

Firstly, I would take issue with the view that having a very

restrictive position on abortion in this country is how draconia. We

have a very clear position in our constitution. What word would you

use? To explain. In our constitution we, as a country, and

the Irish state, values equally the right to life of mothers and babies.

And, that includes unborn babies. There is no distinction nor

hierarchy. A final point on this, you know Bert than I do the stats

here, there are hundreds and hundreds of women, over the last

three years alone, who have left the Irish Republic to get abortions

abroad. Many in the UK. These include 19 rape victims, 21 with

severe health problems, more than 20 girls under the age of 16. Now,

does it seem to you right that the way the system works right now,

those extremely vulnerable young women all have to go abroad to get

abortions? Well, firstly, I don't know where your information is

coming from. I think it's, from my point of view, I'm just speaking

from my personal point of view, I feel very strongly that, you know,

there is virtually a very, very few circumstances that I'm aware of

where treatment cannot and should not be provided for women who are

vulnerable who are pregnant. I don't see abortion as a treatment

for vulnerable women. I mean, it depends, I suppose, on your view of

life. It depends on your view of unborn children. I feel very

strongly, I support strongly our constitution position that there is

an equal right to life of women and unborn babies. You know, that is

something that I think Irish people have held dear for many, many years.

It is something that I consider to be worth defending. A final point

then, it is a bigger issue, I suppose, but it continues this

theme about where Ireland is going and the modernisation and the

change of Ireland. It seems a loft young people, you are a young

politician, a lot of young people in Ireland have lost faith in the

notion that Ireland can modernise, can change itself and certainly can

reform its economy in a way that will give them a really positive

future? The immigration figures, once again in Ireland, are very

troubling. You have, I think, in the last year something between 85

and 8 7,000 people, Irish people, left this country. Reminiscant of

the figures back in the 19th century. Why do you believe so many

young Irish people are leaving? think because we don't have the

opportunities here for them. I think so many young Irish people,

when they leave university, or when they finish their training or when

they leave second level school they don't see opportunities here.

That's - The country is failing them? Well, it has, certainly. We

have gone... In such a short time. This has been a shock to the system.

We have done from a short period of time, since the beginning of 200 to

20134, -- 2013, less than five years from being a country that was

growing, die Natic and had huge opportunities, endless job

opportunities, opportunities for all sorts of careers and lifestyles

and I think that that really, you know, almost with the prick of a

pin, just disappeared and evaporated. That is why we are

working hard to gradually rebuild that. I don't think that anybody

really wants to return to the Celtic Tiger, sort of, either

economy or society that we had during that period, but, I mean, I

really genuinely feel that the step that is we have taken, while they

have been very difficult, very painful, are beginning to show and

beginning to show results and beginning to start reestablishing

opportunities for young people. That is what I see as my task in

government. You know, that is what we are doing. We are working round-

the-clock, all of our ministers, all of our government, to try to

turn around what was essentially, you know, a situation of free-fall

and try to put back the foundations so that we can start to build it up

again and give people hope and show young people that there are

opportunities and that Ireland is a great place to live in. A great