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website. Time for HARDtalk. Europe's: | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
Economic crisis has prompted a populist backlash against the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
powers-that-be. In Finland, the EU's prosperous northern outpost, | :00:23. | :00:30. | |
the beneficiary has been my guest today, Timo Soini, leader of the | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
euro-sceptic nationalist party known as the True Finns Party. He | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
wants to see the eurozone dismantled, immigration is curved | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
and traditional values restored. Critics have labelled the party | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
xenophobic. Is this the Angling Products of European -- is this the | :00:49. | :00:59. | |
:00:59. | :01:13. | ||
angry politics of European disintegration? | :01:13. | :01:21. | |
Timo Soini, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. In the last | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
parliamentary elections in Finland in 2011, he won 19% of the vote | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
partly because at the time, you were the voice of European | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
apocalypse and Finnish people seemed to believe that the | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
apocalypse was close. But you were wrong, weren't you? Know, I wasn't. | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
We have now had a 20 EU Greece summits and the bail out has not | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
worked. There is one more to come. Cyprus. Within weeks. The economics | :01:52. | :02:02. | |
in the eurozone... The unemployment especially in Spain and Greece is | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
awful. I did say apocalypse. He said in 2011 that Europe was | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
suffering from economic gangrene of insolvency. Like a doctor, you said | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
we must amputate or we risk poisoning the whole body. Europe | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
still has all of its limbs inside the eurozone and it isn't dead. | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
is a dead but it's in bad shape. If you are pouring money in every six- | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
month of once in a year, you will get along for a time. Now the | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
Finnish taxpayers responsibilities are nearly 90 billion euros and if | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
the crisis materialises and I think in Greece there are 10 million | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
people and the debt is 330 billion, there will be a haircut. There will | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
be a write-down of debt. And then...? There has already been a | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
haircut in Greece and what we have seen is that after the nadir of | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
this crisis, pretty much when that finish election was and when you | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
were at the height of your political powers, what we have seen | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
is slow return of confidence. We have had Mario Draghi in the | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
European Central Bank saying they will do what it takes to insure the | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
euros and sticks together. And we have seen, for example, investor | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
confidence in Spanish bonds, Irish bonds, beginning to pick up. | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
Spain, unemployment is 26%. The youth unemployment is 50%. Nobody | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
disputes it is bad. The question is - is the eurozone on the verge of | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
collapse? It is in a serious danger anyway. If they were to play within | :03:42. | :03:50. | |
their own rules, the financial aid and the bail outs are actually | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
forbidden between the countries. Isn't it the truth that from your | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
political perspective, you actually embraced the idea of eurozone | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
collapse? You hoped that this common currency would fail and you | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
still desperately need it to file for your own political purposes? | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
That is not true. I did not want England to join the eurozone but we | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
were not given a referendum. They were given a referendum in Denmark | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
and Sweden and they did not participate and they are doing find | :04:23. | :04:31. | |
outside the eurozone. My main concern is that the industry and | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
competitiveness of England. We are still a AAA rated country and we | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
are doing partly OK. -- the competitiveness of the land. | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
have been very good, available the rules. You are absolutely fitting | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
into the model, the template for what they could eurozone economy | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
should be doing. Therefore, in many ways, and the figures suggest this | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
is the case among many people, the eurozone has worked for fin land. | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
Yes but Finnish people are very critical of the bail out. 62% of | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
Finnish people resist the bail out. We have talked about that time in | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
2011 when things looked really bad. I am sure you, like me, have been | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
reading the most recent polls. Your own party numbers are down | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
significantly. They are not. The latest poll was 17.7 %. But you had | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
19%. There is a margin of error. But never mind the polls, the real | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
results of real elections. You came fourth in the presidential election. | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
You got a 9% of the vote. You are not doing as well as you were. | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
are doing better than ever. That is a very strange way of interpreting | :05:45. | :05:54. | |
the real decisions by real voters. 3.4% was my result in the | :05:54. | :06:02. | |
presidential election in 2006. In 2012, I got 9.4%. In the municipal | :06:02. | :06:11. | |
elections in 2008, we got 5.4%. Now we have 12.4 %. We used to have 440 | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
city councillors. Now we have 1195. I would say that this is going | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
forward, not backward. Let us be simple about this. Is your message | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
to the Finnish people that England can only thrive not just outside | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
the eurozone but outside the EU or together? -- that your country can | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
only thrive not just outside the eurozone but outside the EU all | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
together? I am a realistic person. I was very happy when David Cameron | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
said that the treaty should be renegotiated. I support that poorly. | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
I would like all of us in Scandinavia, Iceland, Norway, to | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
have stayed outside the euro. Denmark and Sweden are inside the | :07:01. | :07:08. | |
EU but not the euro. Finland is in both. You want a referendum in your | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
country on membership. You are quoting David Cameron. What he has | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
promised his and in or out referendum. After the renegotiation | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
of the treaty. If the result is good, we will stay in. If it is bad, | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
we can leave. But before he spoke, everybody would have said you were | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
out of your mind, that it is not possible to negotiate anything. But, | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
no, it is possible. Looking at a polling among business people and | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
the anecdotal evidence among business people in Finland, I see | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
no support for your contention that the Finnish economy would be doing | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
better were it not in the eurozone or the two. Let me point to one. | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
One businessman who was recently interviewed by a guest Eagle | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
magazine. He says England is a small country with big neighbours. | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
No-one in this country would think about breaking up the eurozone or | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
withdrawing from it. We live in this country from our exports and | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
we would not stand a chance without the euro. Yes, that is the official | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
trees. But you can also have a private truth. My country is a very | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
small country. There is easily one truth at a time. When we went into | :08:24. | :08:34. | |
:08:34. | :08:35. | ||
the euro, many industries said this would be risky for us. For example, | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
we have lost our competitiveness against Sweden because they have a | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
floating currency and we do not. Right. But I come back to the most | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
basic point of all, which is that when we look around Europe, your | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
country is prosperous, you would not argue with that? Your country's | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
trade is predominantly done within the EU. And it seems to me in a | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
country with 5.4 million people, the message you are trying to sell | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
is that you can only in the end fulfil our destiny outside of the | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
EU. That is a difficult political message to sell. No, I am only | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
selling what I am thinking and what the people of my party are | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
believing in. But of course the Finnish people have the final | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
choice. For example, when we went to the EU, we thought that the | :09:27. | :09:36. | |
rules were for everyone. That they were to be followed. For example, | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
the growth and stability pact. First, it was violated by France | :09:40. | :09:49. | |
and Germany. And then it was Spain, Greece and now we have bail outs. | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
That is why it is no good. Interesting that you choose | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
constantly to focus on the failings of the southern European nations. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
You have been accused of creating a new, de facto Berlin Wall division | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
in Europe between north and south. And when some people in your party | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
like your fellow minister says things like Greece's debt problems | :10:12. | :10:18. | |
can only be solved by a military junta, as is traditional in Greece, | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
there seems to be contemptuous tone towards southern Europe in your | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
party in Finland, which many Europeans do not like. I have been | :10:28. | :10:38. | |
with the Greek MEPs of my own group. And I get along very well with them. | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
And they like your illusions to military juntas? I have never | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
personally talk like that. But you know she did. What do you do? Did | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
you punish him in any way? Did you discipline him for suggesting in | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
such a manner that Greece should have some sort of military coup? | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
said this was improper language and he went to see the Speaker of the | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
house. He is still a member of your party, isn't he? Why shouldn't he | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
be? We will talk about that in a moment, because he also has some | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
interesting things to say about immigration and race, which you | :11:15. | :11:24. | |
have chosen to ignore as well. should ask him for his opinions and | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
asked me for my opinions. It is your opinions on him that I am | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
interested in. We are not that close. But before we get there, I | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
want to pick away one more time at your policy not just towards the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
eurozone and the fiscal situation but more generally in terms of your | :11:41. | :11:49. | |
domestic economic policy. Your party seems to be committed to | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
state intervention and as some people see it a backward-looking | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
view of economic management that far from opening up Finland to the | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
world would actually create a new layers of bureaucracy, which hardly | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
seems to be conducive to wealth. True Finns Party is for small | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
business people. Many of our support -- much of our support | :12:13. | :12:22. | |
comes from small businessmen. But for example, state intervention, I | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
think that you have read about the docks situation. Building the big | :12:27. | :12:37. | |
:12:37. | :12:38. | ||
ships. And with that, we lost the bargain to France. And there was a | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
kind of capital of 50 million. If we had granted that -- if we had | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
been granted that by the state, we would have got 20,000 men, yearly, | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
in work guaranteed. I was not actually thinking of that but it | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
will promise to support agriculture in the rural regions, to coin new | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
money and get more government stake in industry and infrastructure | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
investment. And to pay for all of this, presumably, increase personal | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
and corporate taxes, raise capital gains tax, three Institute the | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
wealth tax. Is this really an economic policy you believe will | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
produce new growth? New growth comes only when it is profitable to | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
were and we want to have the tax rate for the workers and small | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
businessmen tolerable. Then, there should be big business he should be | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
paying taxes as well but they can make all kinds of swindling to | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
avoid taxes. That is something we want to get rid of. Economic | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
populism, isn't it? It doesn't marry with anything that the EU | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
Commission is saying or indeed the Conservative Party in the UK or in | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
the... I cannot think of anybody else who argues that swingeing new | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
heavy taxes and a massive government spending is actually | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
going to get Europe out of its current mess. Our group has | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
criticised the European leaders that they have been cutting too | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
heavily. Now, when you cut the demand, you will have a low growth | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
rate. What I believe in his small business. The best example is the | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
people who are supporters of the True Finns Party. They have taken | :14:26. | :14:36. | |
:14:36. | :14:44. | ||
care of their own businesses. And Many of the problems of your | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
country can put it at the door of the European Union but others can | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
be put at the door of immigration. We come back to what one of your | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
members calls the immigration catastrophe. Do you see it as an | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
immigration catastrophe that has befallen Finland? I did not see it | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
that way. It is very small numbers of people coming to Finland | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
compared to other EU countries. Those people who do come must be | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
welcomed. They must be taken care of. At the same level as the Finns. | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
But you want few of them. Your party platform speaks of much | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
smaller numbers of humanitarian Refugees. We have been saying that | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
the water which was being given by international agreements, we take | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
them badly. All EU citizens can move in and out freely as in every | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
EU country. Some can buy her houses or cottages or whatever. When we | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
are talking about the large amounts of people coming, we want to know | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
whether there is a workplace or whether they can support themselves. | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
Is there a strand of races and inside your party? No, I'm a | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
Catholic Christian. By definition a cannot be a racist. I'm not sure | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
that would convince everybody listening to this interview. I | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
asked again, is there a strand of races and in your party? Know. | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
Nobody is hated by a The Finns Party. There are one or two | :16:18. | :16:27. | |
outbursts but we have 90% -- 19% of people voting for Ross. If there | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
are some it individuals or MPs, they cannot personally be in charge. | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
You're a leader. That is your job. (CROSSTALK). 39 MPs and you're | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
saying that as leader, it is impossible to ensure that none of | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
them ever come up with a racist statement. I never approve of any | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
kind of races statement. We can go back through the record. Let us | :16:55. | :17:05. | |
:17:05. | :17:06. | ||
take a few. One of your MPs said -- used a word to describe a black | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
people which is completely unacceptable and racist. What did | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
you do? I said, don't use that kind of language. Why didn't she fire | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
him? Why should I. If people use that kind of complete the | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
derogatory word toward people of a different race, it suggests that | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
they are racist. But he has not said that he is a racist and I do | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
not believe that he is a racist. if you use that kind of | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
inflammatory language but then denied it were racist, then that is | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
OK? That is not OK. You should be improving your behaviour. He did | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
not say once, did do not that if anyone in your party, especially an | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
MP, were convicted of racist behaviour, they would be removed? | :17:52. | :18:01. | |
Yes. This is for a particular case for one member who wrote a Facebook | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
post five years ago, before he was a City Council, not even when he | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
was a member parliament and has had negative publicity for five years. | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
People will not know this case as well as use it let us explain. He | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
referred the Prophet Muhammad as it had a far. He said that Islam was a | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
paddock while religion. It went through the courts and one up in | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
the Supreme Court. He was convicted. Let us the Court of this. He was | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
convicted of ethnic agitation and bridging the sanctity of religion. | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
You had promised that those convicted of such crimes would be | :18:43. | :18:51. | |
removed from the party. What happened? I can put it slowly. He | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
has been in purgatory for five years. I think that that is a bad | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
punishment enough for him. I now think that he will know how bad it | :19:02. | :19:11. | |
was written and he would never do it again. He broke a promise. | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
said that I was not a person who could punish him any more after he | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
had been constantly punished for five years. But you broke your | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
promise. I said that I cannot punish a man more than that. So it | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
is OK to break your promise? A very important promise. It was a signal | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
to the Finnish people that despite all the criticism that you and your | :19:32. | :19:40. | |
party face, you were committed to a non racist politics. Then he had a | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
member, a senior member of your party aside from yourself, one of | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
the most popular figures in your party is set yourself, who was | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
convicted and two broken promise. That is up to the electorate to | :19:51. | :19:58. | |
decide. There had been five years and he has been punished and he was | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
the chair of the administrative committee of the Finnish Parliament. | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
He lost that place. He was punished. Just to be clear about what your | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
party is all about. He used to call yourself as the True Finns and | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
married as coir sells The Finns Party. Am I correct in | :20:16. | :20:23. | |
understanding as one of your leader his papers have said that you're | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
best-known nationalists and proud of it. That you believe in the | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
finish identity that has a specific heritage and that, to you, is | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
something which must be preserved. In every nation, there is ethnic | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
and historical heritage. Even in Britain, there is a Commonwealth | :20:42. | :20:49. | |
and common values. It does not define a political party. Does it | :20:49. | :20:59. | |
:20:59. | :20:59. | ||
do find watch a political party is about? We are very proud of what | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
the independence has been. After the winter war against Soviet | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
occupation and things like that. Been land is open for everybody. -- | :21:10. | :21:17. | |
in mind. If someone is saying that we do not accept everybody and | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
opposes human life and values, that is wrong. People are saying that | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
the sort of politics you practice is not the politics of the open and | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
tolerant Europe. Then look at your friends and alliances that you have | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
in the European Parliament. For example one of your allies in that | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
grouping is the Slovak National Party whose leader has described | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
the minority Hungarian populations in his country as a cancer in the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
body of the nation. Has said of homosexuals that he has no problem | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
with them as long as they remain in the shadows and have disgusting and | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
the sexual orgies. Abbey is the sort of political allies you want? | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
And give you an example. When we got a landslide victory, I was | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
called in the Swedish press a plague. How does that go with | :22:11. | :22:21. | |
:22:21. | :22:22. | ||
Swedish value skim mark others that A man in your party was convicted | :22:22. | :22:31. | |
of ethnic attacks. You know how painful those attacks are. | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
(CROSSTALK). People in your party are still doing that sort of thing. | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
You are speaking of a small minority in our party, not the | :22:41. | :22:50. | |
majority. All of the Finnish people are very law-abiding people. | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
final thought before we go. We began by taking a big picture if | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
you would Europe. The EU has not collapsed. It is in serious trouble | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
and Cyprus is going to be bailed out which is against the eurozone | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
rules. My final thought is this - there is a lot of anger in Europe | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
at the moment. People are angry with the status quo. D believe it | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
will party and our allies across the EU can take power? That is what | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
to have not succeeded in doing so far. I am now the City Council | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
chair of my home city. It has the Nokia headquarters. We are in power | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
in many local minister banalities. Why we are not in the government is | :23:38. | :23:45. | |
because of this bail-out policy. I said to the Prime Minister but if | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
you do not go to Brussels, send me as the Minister of Treasury and a | :23:49. | :23:56. | |
war go and say, you can do your bile arts but we're not taking part. | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
There is a chance that you have missed a moment of maximum | :23:59. | :24:08. | |
opportunity. Everything is possible. When I began this party in 1995, we | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
were outside the parliament for eight years. Now I have been in the | :24:13. | :24:19. |