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Timo Soini - Leader, The Finns Party

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website. Time for HARDtalk. Europe's:

:00:14.:00:18.

Economic crisis has prompted a populist backlash against the

:00:19.:00:23.

powers-that-be. In Finland, the EU's prosperous northern outpost,

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the beneficiary has been my guest today, Timo Soini, leader of the

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euro-sceptic nationalist party known as the True Finns Party. He

:00:33.:00:38.

wants to see the eurozone dismantled, immigration is curved

:00:38.:00:43.

and traditional values restored. Critics have labelled the party

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xenophobic. Is this the Angling Products of European -- is this the

:00:49.:00:59.
:00:59.:01:13.

angry politics of European disintegration?

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Timo Soini, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. In the last

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parliamentary elections in Finland in 2011, he won 19% of the vote

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partly because at the time, you were the voice of European

:01:31.:01:34.

apocalypse and Finnish people seemed to believe that the

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apocalypse was close. But you were wrong, weren't you? Know, I wasn't.

:01:41.:01:46.

We have now had a 20 EU Greece summits and the bail out has not

:01:46.:01:52.

worked. There is one more to come. Cyprus. Within weeks. The economics

:01:52.:02:02.

in the eurozone... The unemployment especially in Spain and Greece is

:02:02.:02:07.

awful. I did say apocalypse. He said in 2011 that Europe was

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suffering from economic gangrene of insolvency. Like a doctor, you said

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we must amputate or we risk poisoning the whole body. Europe

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still has all of its limbs inside the eurozone and it isn't dead.

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is a dead but it's in bad shape. If you are pouring money in every six-

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month of once in a year, you will get along for a time. Now the

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Finnish taxpayers responsibilities are nearly 90 billion euros and if

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the crisis materialises and I think in Greece there are 10 million

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people and the debt is 330 billion, there will be a haircut. There will

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be a write-down of debt. And then...? There has already been a

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haircut in Greece and what we have seen is that after the nadir of

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this crisis, pretty much when that finish election was and when you

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were at the height of your political powers, what we have seen

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is slow return of confidence. We have had Mario Draghi in the

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European Central Bank saying they will do what it takes to insure the

:03:14.:03:18.

euros and sticks together. And we have seen, for example, investor

:03:19.:03:25.

confidence in Spanish bonds, Irish bonds, beginning to pick up.

:03:25.:03:32.

Spain, unemployment is 26%. The youth unemployment is 50%. Nobody

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disputes it is bad. The question is - is the eurozone on the verge of

:03:37.:03:42.

collapse? It is in a serious danger anyway. If they were to play within

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their own rules, the financial aid and the bail outs are actually

:03:50.:03:54.

forbidden between the countries. Isn't it the truth that from your

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political perspective, you actually embraced the idea of eurozone

:04:00.:04:06.

collapse? You hoped that this common currency would fail and you

:04:06.:04:10.

still desperately need it to file for your own political purposes?

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That is not true. I did not want England to join the eurozone but we

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were not given a referendum. They were given a referendum in Denmark

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and Sweden and they did not participate and they are doing find

:04:23.:04:31.

outside the eurozone. My main concern is that the industry and

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competitiveness of England. We are still a AAA rated country and we

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are doing partly OK. -- the competitiveness of the land.

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have been very good, available the rules. You are absolutely fitting

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into the model, the template for what they could eurozone economy

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should be doing. Therefore, in many ways, and the figures suggest this

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is the case among many people, the eurozone has worked for fin land.

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Yes but Finnish people are very critical of the bail out. 62% of

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Finnish people resist the bail out. We have talked about that time in

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2011 when things looked really bad. I am sure you, like me, have been

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reading the most recent polls. Your own party numbers are down

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significantly. They are not. The latest poll was 17.7 %. But you had

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19%. There is a margin of error. But never mind the polls, the real

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results of real elections. You came fourth in the presidential election.

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You got a 9% of the vote. You are not doing as well as you were.

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are doing better than ever. That is a very strange way of interpreting

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the real decisions by real voters. 3.4% was my result in the

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presidential election in 2006. In 2012, I got 9.4%. In the municipal

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elections in 2008, we got 5.4%. Now we have 12.4 %. We used to have 440

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city councillors. Now we have 1195. I would say that this is going

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forward, not backward. Let us be simple about this. Is your message

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to the Finnish people that England can only thrive not just outside

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the eurozone but outside the EU or together? -- that your country can

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only thrive not just outside the eurozone but outside the EU all

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together? I am a realistic person. I was very happy when David Cameron

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said that the treaty should be renegotiated. I support that poorly.

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I would like all of us in Scandinavia, Iceland, Norway, to

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have stayed outside the euro. Denmark and Sweden are inside the

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EU but not the euro. Finland is in both. You want a referendum in your

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country on membership. You are quoting David Cameron. What he has

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promised his and in or out referendum. After the renegotiation

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of the treaty. If the result is good, we will stay in. If it is bad,

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we can leave. But before he spoke, everybody would have said you were

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out of your mind, that it is not possible to negotiate anything. But,

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no, it is possible. Looking at a polling among business people and

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the anecdotal evidence among business people in Finland, I see

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no support for your contention that the Finnish economy would be doing

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better were it not in the eurozone or the two. Let me point to one.

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One businessman who was recently interviewed by a guest Eagle

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magazine. He says England is a small country with big neighbours.

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No-one in this country would think about breaking up the eurozone or

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withdrawing from it. We live in this country from our exports and

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we would not stand a chance without the euro. Yes, that is the official

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trees. But you can also have a private truth. My country is a very

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small country. There is easily one truth at a time. When we went into

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the euro, many industries said this would be risky for us. For example,

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we have lost our competitiveness against Sweden because they have a

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floating currency and we do not. Right. But I come back to the most

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basic point of all, which is that when we look around Europe, your

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country is prosperous, you would not argue with that? Your country's

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trade is predominantly done within the EU. And it seems to me in a

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country with 5.4 million people, the message you are trying to sell

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is that you can only in the end fulfil our destiny outside of the

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EU. That is a difficult political message to sell. No, I am only

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selling what I am thinking and what the people of my party are

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believing in. But of course the Finnish people have the final

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choice. For example, when we went to the EU, we thought that the

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rules were for everyone. That they were to be followed. For example,

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the growth and stability pact. First, it was violated by France

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and Germany. And then it was Spain, Greece and now we have bail outs.

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That is why it is no good. Interesting that you choose

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constantly to focus on the failings of the southern European nations.

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You have been accused of creating a new, de facto Berlin Wall division

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in Europe between north and south. And when some people in your party

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like your fellow minister says things like Greece's debt problems

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can only be solved by a military junta, as is traditional in Greece,

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there seems to be contemptuous tone towards southern Europe in your

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party in Finland, which many Europeans do not like. I have been

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with the Greek MEPs of my own group. And I get along very well with them.

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And they like your illusions to military juntas? I have never

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personally talk like that. But you know she did. What do you do? Did

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you punish him in any way? Did you discipline him for suggesting in

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such a manner that Greece should have some sort of military coup?

:10:59.:11:03.

said this was improper language and he went to see the Speaker of the

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house. He is still a member of your party, isn't he? Why shouldn't he

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be? We will talk about that in a moment, because he also has some

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interesting things to say about immigration and race, which you

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have chosen to ignore as well. should ask him for his opinions and

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asked me for my opinions. It is your opinions on him that I am

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interested in. We are not that close. But before we get there, I

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want to pick away one more time at your policy not just towards the

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eurozone and the fiscal situation but more generally in terms of your

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domestic economic policy. Your party seems to be committed to

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state intervention and as some people see it a backward-looking

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view of economic management that far from opening up Finland to the

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world would actually create a new layers of bureaucracy, which hardly

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seems to be conducive to wealth. True Finns Party is for small

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business people. Many of our support -- much of our support

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comes from small businessmen. But for example, state intervention, I

:12:22.:12:27.

think that you have read about the docks situation. Building the big

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:12:37.:12:38.

ships. And with that, we lost the bargain to France. And there was a

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kind of capital of 50 million. If we had granted that -- if we had

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been granted that by the state, we would have got 20,000 men, yearly,

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in work guaranteed. I was not actually thinking of that but it

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will promise to support agriculture in the rural regions, to coin new

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money and get more government stake in industry and infrastructure

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investment. And to pay for all of this, presumably, increase personal

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and corporate taxes, raise capital gains tax, three Institute the

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wealth tax. Is this really an economic policy you believe will

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produce new growth? New growth comes only when it is profitable to

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were and we want to have the tax rate for the workers and small

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businessmen tolerable. Then, there should be big business he should be

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paying taxes as well but they can make all kinds of swindling to

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avoid taxes. That is something we want to get rid of. Economic

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populism, isn't it? It doesn't marry with anything that the EU

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Commission is saying or indeed the Conservative Party in the UK or in

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the... I cannot think of anybody else who argues that swingeing new

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heavy taxes and a massive government spending is actually

:13:59.:14:04.

going to get Europe out of its current mess. Our group has

:14:04.:14:08.

criticised the European leaders that they have been cutting too

:14:08.:14:15.

heavily. Now, when you cut the demand, you will have a low growth

:14:15.:14:23.

rate. What I believe in his small business. The best example is the

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people who are supporters of the True Finns Party. They have taken

:14:26.:14:36.
:14:36.:14:44.

care of their own businesses. And Many of the problems of your

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country can put it at the door of the European Union but others can

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be put at the door of immigration. We come back to what one of your

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members calls the immigration catastrophe. Do you see it as an

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immigration catastrophe that has befallen Finland? I did not see it

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that way. It is very small numbers of people coming to Finland

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compared to other EU countries. Those people who do come must be

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welcomed. They must be taken care of. At the same level as the Finns.

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But you want few of them. Your party platform speaks of much

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smaller numbers of humanitarian Refugees. We have been saying that

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the water which was being given by international agreements, we take

:15:32.:15:37.

them badly. All EU citizens can move in and out freely as in every

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EU country. Some can buy her houses or cottages or whatever. When we

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are talking about the large amounts of people coming, we want to know

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whether there is a workplace or whether they can support themselves.

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Is there a strand of races and inside your party? No, I'm a

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Catholic Christian. By definition a cannot be a racist. I'm not sure

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that would convince everybody listening to this interview. I

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asked again, is there a strand of races and in your party? Know.

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Nobody is hated by a The Finns Party. There are one or two

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outbursts but we have 90% -- 19% of people voting for Ross. If there

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are some it individuals or MPs, they cannot personally be in charge.

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You're a leader. That is your job. (CROSSTALK). 39 MPs and you're

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saying that as leader, it is impossible to ensure that none of

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them ever come up with a racist statement. I never approve of any

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kind of races statement. We can go back through the record. Let us

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:17:05.:17:06.

take a few. One of your MPs said -- used a word to describe a black

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people which is completely unacceptable and racist. What did

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you do? I said, don't use that kind of language. Why didn't she fire

:17:14.:17:20.

him? Why should I. If people use that kind of complete the

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derogatory word toward people of a different race, it suggests that

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they are racist. But he has not said that he is a racist and I do

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not believe that he is a racist. if you use that kind of

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inflammatory language but then denied it were racist, then that is

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OK? That is not OK. You should be improving your behaviour. He did

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not say once, did do not that if anyone in your party, especially an

:17:48.:17:52.

MP, were convicted of racist behaviour, they would be removed?

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Yes. This is for a particular case for one member who wrote a Facebook

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post five years ago, before he was a City Council, not even when he

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was a member parliament and has had negative publicity for five years.

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People will not know this case as well as use it let us explain. He

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referred the Prophet Muhammad as it had a far. He said that Islam was a

:18:26.:18:29.

paddock while religion. It went through the courts and one up in

:18:29.:18:34.

the Supreme Court. He was convicted. Let us the Court of this. He was

:18:34.:18:37.

convicted of ethnic agitation and bridging the sanctity of religion.

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You had promised that those convicted of such crimes would be

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removed from the party. What happened? I can put it slowly. He

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has been in purgatory for five years. I think that that is a bad

:18:57.:19:02.

punishment enough for him. I now think that he will know how bad it

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was written and he would never do it again. He broke a promise.

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said that I was not a person who could punish him any more after he

:19:15.:19:18.

had been constantly punished for five years. But you broke your

:19:18.:19:24.

promise. I said that I cannot punish a man more than that. So it

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is OK to break your promise? A very important promise. It was a signal

:19:29.:19:32.

to the Finnish people that despite all the criticism that you and your

:19:32.:19:40.

party face, you were committed to a non racist politics. Then he had a

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member, a senior member of your party aside from yourself, one of

:19:44.:19:48.

the most popular figures in your party is set yourself, who was

:19:48.:19:51.

convicted and two broken promise. That is up to the electorate to

:19:51.:19:58.

decide. There had been five years and he has been punished and he was

:19:58.:20:02.

the chair of the administrative committee of the Finnish Parliament.

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He lost that place. He was punished. Just to be clear about what your

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party is all about. He used to call yourself as the True Finns and

:20:14.:20:16.

married as coir sells The Finns Party. Am I correct in

:20:16.:20:23.

understanding as one of your leader his papers have said that you're

:20:23.:20:28.

best-known nationalists and proud of it. That you believe in the

:20:28.:20:31.

finish identity that has a specific heritage and that, to you, is

:20:31.:20:37.

something which must be preserved. In every nation, there is ethnic

:20:37.:20:42.

and historical heritage. Even in Britain, there is a Commonwealth

:20:42.:20:49.

and common values. It does not define a political party. Does it

:20:49.:20:59.
:20:59.:20:59.

do find watch a political party is about? We are very proud of what

:20:59.:21:03.

the independence has been. After the winter war against Soviet

:21:03.:21:10.

occupation and things like that. Been land is open for everybody. --

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in mind. If someone is saying that we do not accept everybody and

:21:17.:21:21.

opposes human life and values, that is wrong. People are saying that

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the sort of politics you practice is not the politics of the open and

:21:26.:21:30.

tolerant Europe. Then look at your friends and alliances that you have

:21:30.:21:35.

in the European Parliament. For example one of your allies in that

:21:35.:21:38.

grouping is the Slovak National Party whose leader has described

:21:38.:21:45.

the minority Hungarian populations in his country as a cancer in the

:21:45.:21:49.

body of the nation. Has said of homosexuals that he has no problem

:21:49.:21:54.

with them as long as they remain in the shadows and have disgusting and

:21:54.:22:00.

the sexual orgies. Abbey is the sort of political allies you want?

:22:00.:22:05.

And give you an example. When we got a landslide victory, I was

:22:05.:22:11.

called in the Swedish press a plague. How does that go with

:22:11.:22:21.
:22:21.:22:22.

Swedish value skim mark others that A man in your party was convicted

:22:22.:22:31.

of ethnic attacks. You know how painful those attacks are.

:22:31.:22:38.

(CROSSTALK). People in your party are still doing that sort of thing.

:22:38.:22:41.

You are speaking of a small minority in our party, not the

:22:41.:22:50.

majority. All of the Finnish people are very law-abiding people.

:22:50.:22:54.

final thought before we go. We began by taking a big picture if

:22:54.:22:58.

you would Europe. The EU has not collapsed. It is in serious trouble

:22:58.:23:02.

and Cyprus is going to be bailed out which is against the eurozone

:23:02.:23:07.

rules. My final thought is this - there is a lot of anger in Europe

:23:07.:23:12.

at the moment. People are angry with the status quo. D believe it

:23:12.:23:18.

will party and our allies across the EU can take power? That is what

:23:19.:23:25.

to have not succeeded in doing so far. I am now the City Council

:23:25.:23:33.

chair of my home city. It has the Nokia headquarters. We are in power

:23:33.:23:38.

in many local minister banalities. Why we are not in the government is

:23:38.:23:45.

because of this bail-out policy. I said to the Prime Minister but if

:23:45.:23:49.

you do not go to Brussels, send me as the Minister of Treasury and a

:23:49.:23:56.

war go and say, you can do your bile arts but we're not taking part.

:23:56.:23:59.

There is a chance that you have missed a moment of maximum

:23:59.:24:08.

opportunity. Everything is possible. When I began this party in 1995, we

:24:08.:24:13.

were outside the parliament for eight years. Now I have been in the

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